Brian, Brian Houston, C3 Global Presence Conference 2014, C3 Presence Conference 2014, community, darwinism, emotion, existentialism, fascism, fascist, global presence conference, Global Presence Conference 2014, houston, louie giglio, Pastor Brian, pastor brian houston, phil pringle, Presence Conference, Presence Conference 2014, ps brian houston, romanticism
The fascist practices and philosophies emerging from the mega-church cults like C3, CHC and Hillsong church should concern Christians everywhere. They are unafraid to use propaganda and fuhrer-prinzip methodologies. They elevate arts, experience and feelings over logic and reason. They propagate the cult of youth and use the size of their ‘volkish’ community to bully Christians into submitting to their strong leadership and movements.
Sound extreme? Are we exaggerating the phenomenon? Are we making this up? Sadly, this is all too real. They may not realise it but these movements are built on the same community-identification principles that characterised the fascist movements in Europe in the 1920’s and 1930’s. Be aware that fascism isn’t to be confused with policies. Italian Fascism and German National Socialism were primarily personality cults where the vision of the leader must be implemented … the policies tended to be indistinguishable from socialism/communism. They were populist policies that played to the masses. The real danger is not where a Brian Houston or a Phil Pringle would take their organisations. The real danger is in whoever comes after them. C3 and Hillsong have set a precedent in Australia for the vision-casting leader who must be obeyed … or else!
Louie Giglio is speaking this year at Phil Pringle’s C3 Global Presence Conference 2014. Oddly enough, it has been observed that Giglio’s ministry also has fascist trends emerging from their movement. Please warn people how dangerous this man’s ministry is. Please also warn Christians the dangers of Phil Pringle’s Presence Conference.
Fascist Trends of Passion 2014
I cannot unpack all of the complexities of ideological fascism in this blog post and how it has revived under the name of postmodernism in our day and popular culture. 2 years in the works at HBP is an upcoming film on Fascism and the Postmodern church. See our full-length interview with Dr. Gene Edward Veith,Postmodernism, Fascism and the Church.
When people think of fascism today they think of Hitler, anti-semitism, the Holocaust, genocide, racism, militarism and the Nazis. Today, the word “Fascist” has been deduced to an insulting label for vilifying political enemies, but its true nature is greatly misunderstood. While Hitler and the Axis powers were defeated militarily in WWII, fascist ideology remains alive and well today under a new name.
Popular contemporary Christianity also appears to be emerging into something new. Much like the mainstream of European prefascist theology, many mainline church denominations have been turning away from transcendence and the Scriptures in favor of a spirituality based upon immanence, cultural activism, and existentialism. Many churches that were once committed to a high view of the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are now shifting their focus toward experience, emotionalism and communalism. In many ways, Christianity may be the strongest defense against fascism, but it may also be its point of entry. (See Veith’s book Modern Fascism: The Threat to the Judeo Christian Worldview and Chris Rosebrough’s lecture Resistance is Futile: You Will Be Assimilated into the Community)
Along with Darwinism and Existentialism, Romanticism was also a key component of the counter-Enlightenment worldview of ideological fascism. Romanticism emphasized inspiration and subjectivity as a reaction against alienation and the rationalism that characterized the Enlightenment. This movement in arts and literature reasserted the value of nature by explaining it with experience and emotions as opposed to reason, intellect and rationality.Passion, not reason, was uniquely “natural.”
Fascism rejected the concept of the individual. Nature, emotion and community become the emphasis of the fascist spirituality of immanence. In order to achieve this group identity, fascism was often characterized by grandiose public rallies. Hitler is pictured surrounded by people in panoramic shots of the community. “We have a community,” says Giglio in this Passion 2014 promo.
The group becomes the living organism or organic community. What you will find emphasized on the Passion 2014 website is not teaching the observance of everything Jesus commanded but the fascist themes of immanence (“God’s presence”) and community (“united”):
TWO GATHERINGS. ONE HEARTBEAT. THE JESUS GENERATION UNITED. . . .
Last year, our US gathering drew more than 60,000 students and leaders from around the world to the Georgia Dome in Atlanta. We were blown away by God’s presence. (source)
Rather than appealing to doctrine and objective truth, there is much talk and reliance upon feelings, emotions, action and movement. In fascism and postmodernism alike, emotionalism takes the place of logic. If objective truth and morality is alienating, then subjective experience is uniting.
Fascists did not know where this progressive revolution was going, but they believed anychange or any movement was better. Hitler uses the phrase “the Movement” over two hundred times in Mein Kampf and a Nazi Party journal was entitled Die Bewegung (The Movement).1 Similarly, the Postmodern Emerging Church has no fixed destination but is about action and movement. Likewise, the Passion 2014 event is described as a “movement.” Louie Giglio says, “More than an event, Passion is a movement,” in this Passion 2014 promo video.
The themes of the Passion movement and Passion 2014 are distinctly fascist. Christian Post reports:
The Passion 2014 Atlanta Conference kicked off at Philips Arena in Atlanta Friday with over 20,000 university students attending the two-day event from around the world.
Students from over 1,200 universities and 33 countries attended this year’s Passion conference in Atlanta. This is the first of Passion’s two large-scale gatherings this year in North America for 18-25 year olds. Passion 2014 Houston will be held on February 14-15 at the Toyota Center.
Passion 2014 brings together several internationally renowned pastors, teachers and worship leaders. Joining Passion founders Louie and Shelley Giglio in Atlanta will be John Piper, Christine Caine, and Francis Chan. Grammy award winning artists and worship leaders Chris Tomlin and Matt Redman, are slated to lead worship, along with David Crowder, Kristian Stanfill, Christy Nockels and Hillsong United. (source)
Notice the event attendance is limited to ages 18-25 year old. The English fascist James Barnes wrote, “the present Weltanschauung of fascism may be summed up in one word–youth.”2 Belgian and Romanian fascisms both originated in student movements and the youth were also predominant in fascisms in France, Spain, Italy and England.3 Calling to mind Hitler Youth and German youth culture, Jonah Goldberg writes,
Historically, fascism is of necessity and by design a form of youth movement, and all youth movements have more than a whiff of fascism about them. The exaltation of passion over reason, action over deliberation, is a naturally youthful impulse.4
Last year, the Passion 2013 was an event for young Christians. These Christian conferences that fill stadiums with thousands of people reflect the subjective experience and emotional fulfillment of fascism that comes from losing one’s identity in a larger organic mass community. Judah Smith emphasized the importance of community all throughout his sermon.
The musical performances are very emotional with an emphasis on experiencing God’s presence and the heart rather than the mind. The audience joins in a common experience, feeling and responding as one. These stunning spectacles complete with light shows and music, much like the grandiose public rituals and mass rallies of fascism, actually create community. See here where the “presence” of God, tasting, seeing, and subjective feelings/”experience” are elevated, the fascist marks of immanence over objective truth and rationality.
The consequences of these fascist ideas will unleash a monster. Events like this are raising up a generation that cannot think or reason for themselves. We are seeing a picture that mirrors that of the culture of Continental Europe just prior to WWII. Wake up Church, this is not Christianity!
1 Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (New York, NY: Random House Inc., 2007), 176
2 Zeev Sternhell, Fascist Ideology, Ed. Walter Laqueur, University of California Press, 338
3 Zeev Sternhell, Fascist Ideology, Ed. Walter Laqueur, University of California Press, 342
4 Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (New York, NY: Random House Inc., 2007), 165
Source: Elliott Nesch, Fascist Trends of Passion 2014, Holy Bible Prophecy, http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/2014/01/20/fascist-trends-of-passion-2014/, 20/01/2014. (Accessed 25/01/2014.)
Reads like a Brian Wilshire (of 2GB) one world government conspiracy theory book.
The real Eliot Ness of The Untouchables would be more convincing.
Richard Walsh said:
Practising homo’s CAN NOT BE CHRISTIANS. I have 8 children
(not kids! as calling our children kids
is the same as calling my Wife after
a female DOG.So set the record strait.
Also there is nothing gay about a man
having sex with men.
What does Giglio mean in the promo at the end when he says we have ruma and numa in us? That’s what it sounded like. No idea what he means.
Thank you. And thanks for a lot of good information.
Hi folks, if you want to have more of a say about this topic, swing by this link, and continue the conversation with “Steve” – if he will listen… I’ve been there for the last few days, but I seem to be getting nowhere fast. Hope you don’t mind me osting the link …
That man has some serious issues. He has been blocked from sites because of the way he treats people. You can read his history on a few sites. He is what people call our ‘Richard Abanes’.
Thanks for the heads-up Austin – some of us have experienced Steve/Facelift/Faithlift/
Gordy/Gordon Bennett/Long Train Running/Diddums/Nocomment (just to name a few) far too many times on various blogs to engage in a reasonable conversation with him.
If you have ever listened to Matt Slick on carm.org, he often engages Mormons, Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses – when he asks them direct questions they usually change the subject or resort to ad hominem attack. Steve belongs to that “mindset”.
As I said before, I feel sorry for him, not that he cares…..
Churchwatcher, I feel that it was at least worth the effort, and of course, the Bible verse of “Iron sharpeneth iron” (Proverbs 27:17) is still true. Such encounters do sharpen one’s wits and also causes one to become more knowledgable in the ways of God.
[Edited out] TNP said to me recently, it is often those who follow such blogs that may benefit and so with renewed courage I soldiered on, regardless of the convoluted logic and disconnected missives.
Berean, thank you for your encouragement in the face of – “Steve” or whatever his real name is. He has asked me to pass on a message to you:
“Tell Margot/Berean/legallyblonde/onlybygracealone and the rest of her identities not to feel sorry for me, please. I am fine. Really! Safe in Jesus’ hands. I’m so grateful that the Father forgives me despite my many flaws (and blog pseudonyms lol).”
Well – a girl like you sure gets around, doesn’t she… 🙂 although I’m sure that it’s not you who is suffereing from MPD… (Multiple Pentecostal Disorder…)
Finally, here’s a naughty little quip from me, which I feel rather aptly describes all such deluded and deceived souls, no matter how much we may feel for them, they seem unreachable at this time:
“In the beginning, Brian moulded Steve out of the clay next door to the car park, and Steve became a living, tithing unit of the Garden of Error…” Looks like your “investment” in these man made organisations has finally paid off…”
So thereby hangs a tail…
@ Austin – I can safely say that those names (well-played Steve 🙂 ) reflect a precious journey. “Berean” because I finally became one, “Only By Grace Alone” because that’s the truth. – and “Ilegally Blonde”? That was a journey to the hairdresser.
What saddens me is I know Steve in on the winning side. But for some reason he finds it necessary to cull the wounded rather than minister to them. And having high profile family members being groomed as leaders in that community, we do have a dog in this fight, so to speak.
I’m not one to sit, complain, and not move on, we are now part of a thriving church community, peopled by mature believers, new believers and even some of those “refugees”. We care for the wounded, culling is banned.
Yes, Steve acknowledges there are problems in these churches. But personally having spent 22 years in one of them and almost 9 years out, and since spending time reflecting, studying, researching and being in contact with other “refugees” from these movements, there’s obviously a huge move of God going on and it’s not the “revival” they claim. They are been drawn out to still waters by the precious Holy Spirit.
It was pretty obvious over the last two days watching the Presence 2014 conference (with both Pringle, Houston and Kong Hee speaking among others), that nothing has changed, and the fact that next year they are inviting back Steven Furtick should set off huge alarm bells for those who are aware of his Code Orange cult-like literature (even provided to children).
And if anyone (Steve?) thought Chris Pringle was really hearing from God during her session, well, as they say, there’s a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
I call it out as blasphemy, once more proving the point of 1 Timothy 2:12-13 “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 1For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…”
This isn’t a reformed vs charismatic debate. This is a fight for Truth over a celebrity-driven, product-driven, sola-experienca new “religion”.
Berean, I’m so glad that your ‘names’ tell a story – a journey, in fact, that many of your detractors are yet to undertake. It is one thing for the enemy of our souls to destroy the lives of those whom we love dearly, it is another thing entirely to be shot at by “friendly fire”, which turns out to not be that friendlay after all.
I said to some of my friends here in Brisbane last year, that the current false religious system (including C3Song) would crack and crumble when the money situation got tighter, and it seems that this is beginning to happen in certain quarters.
As to the charge of fascism, I believe that we are seeing the seeds of it with the current government alluding to what could only be fairly described as “austerity measures by stealth” for the upcoming May budget.
The rights and needs of the individual are indeed denied by would be fascist dictators, whether they are embedded in wordly systems of government, or within the confines of the false church itself. Church of tares? You betcha!!! Concerns for young Christians are fully validated, as the likes of C3Song leadership continue to influence them as a corporate mass, (instilling a herd mentality) with their various NAR based activities, including cross polination between various denominational youth. (Anglican youth and Hillsong youth? I’ll bet this is happening already…)
It has been given as one of the prime reasons why the Garden City AOG was taken over by Hillsong: – the fallout of the GFC has hit a lot harder in other parts of the world – Europe, Africa and Asia, where Hillsong may have set their sights for future expansion. However, the opportunities for that to take place have been blocked due to many factors, such as massive unemployment, sky high rents or purchase prices on available venues, and the cost and risk associated with international travel. So it is easier, quicker and cheaper, to mount successful take overs of other struggling churches in the “neighbourhood”, than is is to grow your own brand, overseas, at this point in time.
If only people would understand that the tithing sermon and the money raking is what underpins it all, and that if people were to simply put an end to that Old Testament principle, most of these card house ministries would collapse within a few weeks, or a couple of months at most. I believe that more emphasis in this area would highlight the falseness of the money raking rituals that attend many weekly services in such places.
I too, am a refugee from the Latter Rain and Hyper Faith movements of my day, and by the grace of God, I have survived thus far, and have been given opportunities by the Lord to warn others, of the current incarnations of both movements, as they are far worse and are far more publicly displaying their wares, than they did 30 years ago. When I was a yooung Christian back in the late 1970’s, Copeland and Hagin were banned from most churches, and most bookshop shelves too.
It is a sad thing indeed, to live in a day and an age where solid Bible scholarship and genuine fellowship have been replaced by foolish spruking of the “vision” and false cult like “groupthink” activities, coupled with false prophetic utterances by the dozen. Even those who are genuinely seeking God amidst the madness of these “churches” must be suffering from confusion and despair, as there seems no way out (unless you want to leave everyone and everything behind you).
John Paul II gets to be called a ‘saint’ from this weekend, and George Pell is in the Vatican settling into his promotion. Yet both comprehensively failed, by their lack of action, to further protect children from pedophile priests. And you guys write as if Hillsong is the most dangerous organisation ever in the world.
“And you guys write as if Hillsong is the most dangerous organisation ever in the world.”
If Hillsong loves Harlot Rome and enjoys walking down her ecumenical road…
andy kanapoulos said:
and here we have yet another ‘Christian’ who does not really take The Gospel seriously… where did you learn your social ‘gospel’ from?? what would you expect from unsaved catholic rome?? do you think they really care about ANYBODY at all?? both hillsong and rome are equal liars.
Hill$ong is very dangerous because of its subtlety and use of music to put the masses in a spiritual stupor. Houston is much more skilled in his ability to communicate “man-pleasing” messages than some other wacko preachers. Think top-brand, not home-brand. https://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2006/06/28/the-compromised-church-part-2-spiritual-blindness/
As an ex-Catholic I know how much Hill$ong’s willingness to just get along with everyone to APPEAR Christian and “loving” is so dangerous. When people are in a state of altered consciousness their reasoning ability is put to sleep. They do not question what is being said to them. They do not think to compare what is being said -or sung- with what the bible actually says. They are very unlikely to bother to do that afterwards because *they feel* positive and refreshed. Instead of prolonged rituals like RC’s benediction ceremony Hill$ong uses prolonged and repetitive music instead. Different method, same result.
* glorify God or man?
* proclaim need to repent from sins and faith in Jesus or “preach” pep talks in Christianese?
* defend the faith or its marketing strategies?
* preach sanctification (growth in holiness) or self-acceptance and purpose?
* preach the complete truth that offends non-Christians (and fake believers) or tolerance and ecumenicism at ANY price?
NewTaste ask yourself: if one of the first apostles could somehow visit Hill$ong’s service, understand our language etc., would they say that Hill$ong was preaching the same Gospel they did?
Strange isn’t it, that the Pope and the Cardinal get away with all that rather serious lack of responsibility, and yet the rather loud voices from “C3Song” are never raised in anger at that travesty of justice – they never call out the Roman Catholic Church in this country or any other for their sins of commision or ommision, and never (to my knowledge,) express any sympathy for the victims of such attrocities.
I know some people who were abused as institutionalised children, that live here in Brisbane, and even reaching their middle age and later, they cannot forget it. Compensation paid by the state government at the time (Peter Beatty’s Labor Party) ? Just $7,000 each – that’s all their ruined lives were worth…
They never ever preach against the Roman Catholic institutions’ apostacy, which is now so patently obvious, that even the wordly court system of justice can see it for what it is! The blind who have been lead around by these blind leaders at C3Song have well and truly fallen into the ditch, and it is only a matter of time before someone hires a D4 Caterpillar bulldozer, and covers it all in…
And if anybody out there thinks that this is some kind of veiled hate campaign against Catholics – I was brought up Catholic and attended both Catholic primary and high schools. I do not exercise hatred toward the Catholic people and it is my hearts desire that many of them will see this Whore of a “church” for what it is, and come out of her,into the loving arms of Jesus Christ, just as the Bible states in Revelation 18:4.
“All roads lead to Rome”
@Thinker – Having been influenced by both the “Benediction” of the RC Institution as a small child (which only served to engender fear in those who attended, as they bowed before the ‘host’ placed inside the special holder, called a Monstrance’, worshipping their wafer ‘god’) I have also been influenced by those “divine sleeping pills” (my name for the experience) that you mentioned, Thinker…
I may have shared this story here once before – I can’t remember, but at the risk of repeating myself, I cannot stress just how powerful an artificially generated atmosphere can be. While it is charged with the demonic, it often appears to be an innocent “Holy Ghost” experience.
It doesn’t take much to lull the crowd into a euphoric state, as I witnessed for myself many years ago, while a member of a cult like commune, here in Queensland. Back in 1987, the speaker at that Saturday night meeting, had preached a short word, only lasting some 15 minutes long. The crowd was primed and ready for something…
After singing a few “mantras” together, we were told while under the influence (which manufactured that suggestive state of mind,) that there was a pool in the midst of the floor, and that anyone who wanted to, could jump into the pool and “partake of the blessing”. You wouldn’t think that a room full of otherwise sane, reasoning adults would fall for such a ruse, but there we were, about 50 people, including several children.
One man jumped up out of his seat, and begun to scoop the (imaginary) water out of the “pool’ and mimicked drinking it in front of the crowd (I hope some one remembered to sweep and mop the floor before the meeting,) while another one began to jump and hop around the centre of the room like a frog.
A third man began to “play a trumpet – in the spirit” – which spirit? Half a dozen people began to moo like cows and grunt like pigs – several barked like dogs and one even sounded like a sheep – after all, it was a farm based commune, so the ‘sound effects’ were appropriate for that level of deception…
Others began to clap and dance, and after a few minutes of this crass exhibitionism, the whole room broke up into uproarious and uncontrollable laughter, for at least the next 5 minutes or so. People were literally falling over each other to get around the room.
And all of the above was supposed to be “of God”!
Welcome to the Latter Rain style of “worship” a la the late 1980’s. Some participants, if asked today, will deny that any such event took place, but they were quite common during my 2 1/2 year stay on that ill fated farm commune, to the north of Brisbane.
The leaders were heavily inlfluencd by the Shepherding doctrine, as well as William Branham (a proven false prophet if ever there was one,) who is now glorified and almost deified by the current incarnation of the Latter Rain Movement – the NAR and their entire bevvy of false prophets and apostles, who also appear as “angels of light”.
Their doctrine is damnable heresy, and their unbiblical practices can be found nowhere from Genesis to Revelation. I know – I’ve looked real hard these last 2 years, and I can’t substantiate even one of their major tenets, in either doctrine or practice. Fire tunnels, soaking prayer, “glory” clouds, gemstones appearing on the floor and oil leaking out the side walls of the meeting place??? Let me out!
The same kind of euphoria and existentialism is practiced in many of our post modernist and emergent mega churches both here and overseas (not necessarily accompanied by any or all of the above listed manifestations). People may not be jumping into imaginarey pools of “blessing” any longer, but they are sure jumping headlong into serious doctrinal and practitional error, which the scriptures have been warning us about for the last 2,000 years. Gnosticism coupled to religious fascism.
You see folks, if you have to “pay some money to get to the next level” – not only are you being scammed – you’re being scammed by modern day gnostics, who maintain that they have the ‘secret of the ages’ (which is no real secret at all – all major heresies are out in the open now,) and so there’s really nothing to pay for,in terms of the ‘secret knowledge’ that these Christian crooks claim to hold in reserve.
What is happening today in these false man-made movements, is NOT of God, and even if the outworking of it is markedly different than it was some 25 years ago, the end result will be the same. Many in the end time church of Jesus Christ have been deceived beyond measure, as they continue to feed to coffers of these “churches’ with their hard earned cash, while swallowing one false prophecy after another, like a drunken man, who blindly swallows poisoned oysters whole, not even bothering to stop and inspect what he is placing in his mouth…
saved by His grace…
@Austin – and those feelings you describe are so real and intimate. It doesn’t seem to occur to some people that spiritual feelings in Christian meetings are not automatically from God, they could be the power of suggestion or even from the Enemy as well.
They are not a new thing either. Many writers have warned against these experiences in the past e.g. see this detailed description of counterfeit experiences. http://famguardian.org/Publications/WarOnTheSaints/Chap06.html
Compare what is written there with what people who attend these worship services say….
andy kanapoulos said:
austin and thinker, very thoughtful posts from both of you. i’ve too have spent a lot of time looking into NAR. have you seen that kim walker smith video (i think in russia) where she on stage gives a ‘testimony’ of The Lord physically visiting her? it is crazy bizarre. as the front person for Jesus Culture, she evidently feels the pressure of all bill johnson’s ‘visitations’ so she needs to account for at least one too. also, if you’ve ever seen sid roth’s show, he gets a lot of NAR people on there… yes, you’re right, they do idolize william branham. paul cain (who is about as respected as you can get in NAR) is a big fan of william branham. i actually had heard of paul cain 30 years ago at my church. then at a later church i was going to i saw him in person ministering around 20 years ago. there was a total sense of awe in the church when paul cain stepped onto the stage. a big hush fell over the audience when he first walked in….
@Thinker – I have actually read 2 versions of Jessie Penn Lewis’ book entitled “War On The Saints”. This was written in the aftermath of the Welsh Revival, and no one can deny that a mighty move of God took place as some 100,000 souls were genuinely converted (through conviction of sin and repentance – not feelings and falsehoods,) and added to the church in that far land.
The first version was a reprint of the original book, but the latter version which I read many years later, had the first chapter entirely edited out by the new publshers, who had obtained the Copyright to that publication.
Even if you disagree with some of the contents of the book, including its conclusions, one wonders why it was necessary to edit out an entire chapter, particularly as it refered to many false manifestations and faked spiritual experiences. True revival comes from the Lord, as He searches out the hearts of those who want to be with Him in eternity, and who are prepared to forsake all for the Kingdom of God in this life.
“Test the spirits…” 1 john 4:1 and onwards, is one of our chief safeguards, and we have every right to question the doctrine, practice and motives of those who publicly and openly claim to lift up the name of Jesus Christ, while behind the scenes, they are encouraging the worship of Mammon and are enacting hidden agendas to promote themselves and their cult like “feel good” message – which is anything but the simple Christian Gospel.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you, dressed in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves…” (Matthew 7:15)
@Andy – funny you should mention Paul Cain, as he lis a link between the early Latter Rain Movement (the LRM) and today’s NAR apostles andprophet. See this link for a more detailed review:
I’m posting this link with the disclaimer that I cannot verify the contents of same (all of it – it is quite a lengthy history,) but having attended both LRM and NAR churches here in Oz, I don’t have any problems believing most of it, if not all of it myself.
I recently read an online interview with Geoff Bullock – Hillsong’s former song writer and worship leader, who stated that when he and Brian Houston were touring America during 1988, it was Brian who became enarmoured with the way the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches did things over there – it was always a very BIG show – the bigger the better. Geoff, to his credit, disagreed with the push to convert Hillsong into one of those rather large mega church structures, but as usual, Brian ignored good counsel, and apparently went into overdrive with his new ambition.
Shortly after their return, Hillsong began to change its methodologies in favour of the mega church scene in the US. It seems to me that Hillsong is just another cloned church, after the order of those large ministries over there. That is why it has gone beyond the point of no return, in its headlong rush to be the biggest “church” over here, by whatever means – “let’s let everyone and everything in through the front doors – and don’t forget to bring your money with you…” Sold out for Jesus???
Another interesting event took place a year later, when a certain Pastor David Cartldge of AOG (now deceased) brought C Peter Wagner to Australia, with his doctrine re “territorial spirits” and other highly questionable beliefs. The influence of these two men (Paul Cain and C Peter Wagner) – now recognised as false prophets, according to the Bible standard, were to change the face of the Pentecostal church forever, as the “old guard” was gotten rid of, and the “new guard” became firmly entrenched, supported by the likes of the then Kansas City Prophets group, some of whom have since been publicly discredited. Should the church really be following the teachngs of such men? NO!
Someof us old hacks feel that it is all slowly and deceptively heading to a point where the ACC will virtually become the NAR here in Australia, and that many of the sheep (who are no doubt God’s people – the genuine ones,) will be herded in that direction, and may well face much deeper deceptions and the further loss of their hard earned cash to a much larger and more influential group – and that includes political and economic influence too. After all “success” breeds more “success”, doesn’t it…?
Some commentary on Paul Cain……
“In February 2004, we were made aware that Paul had become an alcoholic. In April 2004, we became aware that Paul is a practicing homosexual. When confronted with the evidence of these sinful practices, Paul admitted to them and agreed to a process of restoration which the three of us would oversee. However, because Paul has continued to drink and pursue immoral practices, and after having exhausted the first two steps of the Matthew 18:15-17 process, we now have a responsibility to bring this before the church.
We also want to apologize to the body of Christ for our part in promoting and elevating Paul’s stature in the church while having these significant strongholds in his life. The signs that these problems existed were abundant, and we had an obvious lack of discernment and failed to see them until this year. We have received a considerable education through this situation, the principles of which we will share in due time with the hope that others will not have to make our same mistakes.” (Mike Bickle, Jack Deere )
“Now, a year after this “restoration” (2005?) process has begun. He is completely restored. According to the following paragraphs of the “restoration” letter, it would seem that the deciding factor on his restoration is his income.
“He is 77 years old and has known only ministry as a source of income. During the restoration process, he has drained most of his assets and needs to be able to work. Though he has been able to pay for much of his care, individuals on the team have paid a large portion of the tab. While Paul Cain Ministries had some money in the bank account, Paul does not. He does not personally own the property in Kansas City.”
Those who would seek to block legitimate efforts for supervised self-employment need to realize that Paul is protected by law as well as by RTV Ministries to proceed with its agreed-upon process of restoration.
He is released to travel in ministry only in the full-time care of a traveling companion who is married, is more than 40 years old, is a licensed RTV minister or a part of the restoration team, and is responsible to update the team to Paul’s progress and needs on a regular basis.” (http://www.paulcain.org)
And from Phil Johnson: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Print/Blog/B131014
“Remember that Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets found an amazing amount of support from Reformed charismatics on both sides of the Atlantic, even after it was clear to more objective minds that the “prophets” were regularly and systematically issuing false prophecies.
And that fact ought to have been clear very early. In 1989, the senior Kansas City Prophet, Bob Jones, acknowledged that he could claim an accuracy rate of no higher than two-thirds. By 1991, Jones was utterly discredited because of his own sexual misconduct with women who came to him seeking prophetic counseling.
Shortly after that (in early 1992), John MacArthur, Lance Quinn, and I met with Paul Cain and Jack Deere in John MacArthur’s office at Jack Deere’s request. Deere wanted to try to convince John MacArthur that the charismatic movement—especially the Vineyard branch—was on a trajectory to make doctrinal soundness and biblical integrity the hallmarks of Third Wave charismatic practice. He brought Cain along, ostensibly so that we could see for ourselves that Cain was a legitimate prophet with a profound gifting.
But Cain was virtually incoherent that day. Lance Quinn remarked to me immediately afterward that it seemed as if Cain had been drinking heavily. (In retrospect it seems a fair assumption that this may indeed have been the case.) Even Deere apologized for Cain’s strange behavior that day, but Deere seemed to want us to assume it was because the Spirit was upon Cain in some unusual way. They both admitted to us that Cain’s “prophecies” were wrong at least as often as they were right. When we cited that as sufficient reason not to accept any of their prophecies, they cited Wayne Grudem’s views on New Testament prophecy as justification for ignoring the errors of prophecies already proven false, while giving credence to still more questionable pronouncements.
That meeting was extremely eye-opening for me. Deere was unable to answer basic questions about certain practices that Lance and I had personally observed him participating in at the Anaheim Vineyard just a few weeks before. Specifically, we asked him about two “prophets” whose public words of knowledge in the morning service were flatly contradictory. (The dueling prophets were apparently using their “gifts” to air out a dispute over some decision the church’s leaders had recently made.) Deere acknowledged that the prophecies that morning were contradictory. And he could not explain why John Wimber let both prophecies stand without a word of explanation or clarification. (He seemed to shrug off our concern by speculating that perhaps even Wimber wasn’t sure which prophecy, if either, was the true one.) Again, he appealed to Grudem, perhaps the most theologically sound of all charismatics, as justification for accepting the two prophets’ gifting as legitimate anyway.
I left that meeting amazed that anyone would give credence to such “prophets.” But several of the best Reformed charismatic leaders—all citing Grudem for authority—continued to give credence to Cain, the Kansas City Prophets, and others like them for a long, long time. Some of the Reformed Charismatics who lent Paul Cain undue credibility did not really renounce him as a prophet until about twelve years later, when his personal sins finally came to light.
(And it may be stretching things to say that everyone concerned actually “renounced” Cain’s supposed prophetic gifting even then. He has lately made something of a comeback. [Jack Deere’s book still touts Cain as a superprophet, and the book was recently released in Romania, where it has left a massive amount of confusion in its wake. Wayne Grudem’s endorsement of the book remains unaltered. I recently wrote him to ask if Cain’s moral failure would spur him to modify or remove his endorsement of Deere’s paean to Cain, and Grudem wrote to asssure me that his endorsement of the book still stands.])”
During my early years in the Pentecostal moment I was given an enormous collection of tapes from John Wimber’s conferences – among these was a “treasure trove” of Paul Cain audios apparently “moving in the Spirit”. I happily confess to eventually depositing them in a much safer place – the local rubbish dump.
andy kanapoulos said:
@austin, i agree with everything you’ve said. and that is an excellent link i too have seen before, a great website i’ve read many articles from… i remember another supposed incident our pastor told us about in that first mention i had ever heard of paul cain. the story goes that… paul cain told some church he was going to visit them, they asked when, and paul said when you feel an earthquake, you’ll know paul would show up that day.
C Peter Wagner… another major deceiver from the roots of *NAR. he is one to definitely stay far away from, though *NAR is really feelin’ the love for him. i consider him somewhere around the top of the pyramid there.
there is 1 even earlier name of NAR you very rarely see, Augustine Acolla. a false prophet who supposedly gave some version of the actual original prophecy to Mike Bickle to move to KC.
the lines are becoming less and less pronounced between all these different flavors of 2 thess 2 deception. i used to consider James Robison as *WOF, but lately he has been inviting some *EMERGENTS to speak. another example, if you go on youtube and search for Sid Roth, you’ll see he’s recently had: John Bevere (*WOF), Jim Staley (that’s James E Staley III of the *HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT), and Gary Oates (*NAR/NOLR).
I was recently looking up a pastor i used to know, and found after he’s been in the ministry 40+ years, he’s slipped over into another smaller-but-rising and loosely-connected group (*CHRISTIAN MYSTICS) which are combining Christianity + Taoism. at first i thought he was kidding, but they’re not.
and then there is *G12 which is now known as the *SURGE MOVEMENT.
and there are still more flavors…
i consider Brian Houston to be in the *WOF camp, but same as everyone else in these false movements, he’s crossing the lines and entertaining deceivers from other groups to compare notes…
all these groups are horrors from hell, each will continue confusing unsuspecting individuals who think they have found a solid group. i keep wondering, why is this so clear to those of us talking on these blogs and forums? and since the deception is now at a lower-level, how many more will be tricked when it all combines into one?
andy kanapoulos said:
@berean, thanks also for mentioning more on paul cain. i have read those paul cain issues before. theres also paul cain’s ministry involvement with Todd Bentley (*NAR) which is additionally troubling. how can NAR confuse todd bentley’s wild behavior with genuine ministering?
one problem with *ALL these false movements is, once someone becomes a ‘trailblazer’, they are rarely questioned….
like Patricia King (*NAR). why the crossover *WOF videos: “Creating Your Glorious Future” and “Coached into Financial Success” ???
look at the activity within her group. they’ve been promoting Caleb Brundidge (*NAR) and his “Ekstasis Worship.” Club Mysterio… where you dance your way to Heaven, lol.
then there’s her other friend Joshua Mills (*NAR), who in addition to the signs @austin named above, joshua gets “oil flowing from his hands.”
or Kim Clement (*NAR, and on elijah list) with his magician antics.
we really don’t need all these cd’s books conferences and prophet schools.
1 John 2:15…
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
@ andy kanapoulos- Kim Clement and the Elijah List, now that’s a blast from the past! And Clement still prophesying nonsense…
andy kanapoulos said:
wow, i had not seen that video. kim clement is just plain out of it…. how is anyone still able to take him seriously?
@Berean and Andy – thanks for all the extras – they’ll make a great side salad along with the main course for my lunch today. It is good to now that the brethren are on the ball and are sharing the info they have. I certainly don’t know it all, but when I attended an NAR church here in Brisbane back in 2012, I saw them all:
Brian Simmons, Bill Johnson, several interns from Elijah House, Todd Bentley (he was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me – ridiculous behaviour on the platform, that in no way could be motivated by the Holy Spirit – and then the revelations about his divorce and remarriage – some prophet – isn’t it amazing that he couldn’t forsee his own dilemna? Che Ahn and Patricia King also made appearances that year, but in my absence. after reading their bios and recent antics,that was enough exposure for me – I didn’t bother going to the meetings – more of same…
These people put on the full sideshow, complete with platform fireworks, false prophecies and huggy touchy feely displays of affection and emotion, but there was not one iota of Bible teaching, or serious exhortation as to how we should live our Christian lives.
Todd Bentley made a play for the youth in particular, as many of them came forward during his meetings to hug him and acknowledge his “input’ into their lives – yuk! There’s something about that particular wolf that I don’t like at all… maybe he prefers the youngest lambs (the youth) as they have the tenderest meat (their innocence and inexperience in life???)
Over all I would have to say that the female “apostle” who runs that particular circus, has departed from the faith once handed to the saints, and has exchanged the truth of God for a lie – a big fat one too! Romans teaches us that once that exchange has taken place, it is but a short interval before the God rejecting crowd begins to worship the creation, rather than the creator. Various forms of idolatry then follow.
Pastor worship and other extreme forms of recognition for their leaders took place at that church on a regular basis – “honouring the pastor” (eg: giving large wads of money in appreciation, over above the regular money raking ritual of tithes and offerings) was a special event, as these hard working, family oriented people were flogged again and again for money beyond their financial means, by these false prophets and their minions. John Tetzel would have been embarressed…
Notice how these Charismatic/Pentacostal/Hillsong churches like to use the word ‘passion’. They love to say use your passion and skills and make a difference, mixed in with God’s love, etc. The Bible tells us the the unsaved are slaves to their passions, whereas the saved are not slaves to their passions.
Look at this Mission Platform promo clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoGlxcVxT9Y
Look at how the guy says to ‘use your skills and passions to make a difference’. Look at how similar this is to any secular social movement.
May God have mercy on us. God says to Love one another….Jesus did not die on one or two people, Jesus died for all of us…He does not choose, God does not think the way we think….Its not about religion but to have a relationship to our Father in heaven through Jesus…(Repent and asking Jesus is our Lord and Savior)….(God Bless you all!!!!)
“… [Jesus] does not choose …”
But the *Bible* says:
“[the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ] … *chose* us in him before the foundation of the world …” (emphasis mine)
Maybe DarRon has been spending too much time listening to the Brian Houstons and Phil Pringles of this world.