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Brian Houston, cult, Darlene Zschech, Hillsong Church, Hillsong cult, roman catholic church cult, word of faith cult, word of faith hillsong cult
The Sydney Morning Herald reports,
Thousands flock for God and rock
AUSTRALIA’S biggest congregation proved the potency of Christianity with a pop-culture twist by drawing thousands of people to the opening of its annual conference last night with a high-volume pop-rock beat and a call to end poverty.
More than 24,000 Christians from 21 denominations around Australia and 70 other countries will attend the five-day 22nd Hillsong Conference at Acer Arena, taking part in workshops on church leadership, the creative arts and evangelism.
Last night’s opening began with a light show, choirs and the public debut of the soloist Katherine Vassalakis, singing U2’s One against a backdrop of a throbbing red heart.
Bible in hand, Hillsong’s worship pastor, Darlene Zschech, and the Hillsong band brought the stadium to its feet with their brand of energetic worship.
The event served as a warm-up act to World Youth Day, heralded by the arrival on Sunday of Pope Benedict on his first visit to Australia. Although they are miles apart in theology and musical tradition, the Catholic Church is borrowing Hillsong’s headline act for World Youth Day in its own attempt at mass youth evangelism. Ms Zschech and her band will perform at a concert held after the Stations of the Cross on Friday, July 18.
The first winner of Australian Idol , Guy Sebastian, who came from Adelaide’s Pentecostal Paradise Community Church, has written World Youth Day’s theme song.
Hillsong, accused by some of preaching self-absorbed Christianity, focused for the second year on the scriptures’ call for social justice – traditional ground of the Catholic Church.
Tim Costello, chief executive of World Vision Australia, welcomed conference delegates.
Mr Costello, who has just returned from Burma, praised Bono as a prophet of the movement to eliminate global poverty. “Bono understands we cannot make poverty history unless the church rises up.”
He said Australians had won the lottery of life by being born in a country with ample food, opportunities and universal health.
The senior pastor of Hillsong, Brian Houston, said the word justice and the responsibility it implied was a key message of the conference.
Source: By Linda Morris Religious Affairs Writer, Thousands flock for God and rock, Sydney Morning Herald, http://www.smh.com.au/news/worldyouyouthday/thousands-flock-for-god-and-rock/2008/07/07/1215282747305.html, Published 08/07/2008. (Accessed 30/05/2014.)
Hillsong Church Watch 
He said Australians had won the lottery of life by being born in a country with ample food, opportunities and universal health..
I can’t stand statements like that, it implies that Australia (and the greater “west” for that matter) just “happened”. Western culture was built on Christian principles, which facilitated the prosperous society we live in today. It wasn’t without sacrifice or effort, or the continuous efforts of its citizens today to propagate and defend those values.
Unfortunately there is another religion that works hard to keep people impoverished and on their knees.
Absolutely Agree With you Icarus
This comment could work out to be a bit sticky and controvertial, but it must be said:
A number of politicians on Tony Abbott’s front bench are Catholic/Jesuit educated – various media and online outlets have identified and highlighted this fact only recently. along with some senior business executives, who have government connections.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/orders-alumni-take-the-lead-20130405-2hc6e.html
http://theaimn.com/2014/05/25/catholic-schoolboys-rule-neo-conservatism-and-the-sociopathy-of-the-religious-right/
Politicians have already shown an affinity with Hillsong in the past – the real outcomes of those particular exercises still remains a mystery to this day, and I do not accept that it was for the ostensibly made excuse of vote buying.
It stands to reason that Hillsong was also be inclined to show support for the first ever Pope in history to come to Australia and partake of a Hillsong Conference… Was this the first take on the unifying of the world’s religious, political and business empires into a One World Whatever? Was it a ‘dry run’ or a ‘rough draft’ of what may occur at some future date, in terms of a more permanent and concrete arrangement? Maybe…
Even if that is not the case, it certainly put Hillsong well and truly on the map as a kingpin organisation within the world Eccumenical movement. It is also plain and clear as to why Hillsong doesn’t mind being cloned (free of charge) but the ‘clones’ could one day regret their makeovers, as they may be forced to ‘change’ as Hillsong also ‘changes’, or end up losing their smaller crowd to the mega church empire forever, should they fail to ‘change’ fast enough… Corner shop churches will disappear as the Hillsong “supermarket chain” opens new branch stores by the dozen.
I think we have to see the bigger picture here – Hillsong isn’t just about false doctrine or practice – it’s also about conforming to the ‘spirit of the age’ in order that it may morph into something more acceptable – something that will survive as an entity, during the hard times ahead. They have seen which way the wind is blowing, and have trimmed their sails accordingly, and they are clearly sailing towards Rome.
Compromise with the world may allow Hillsong’s survival and even flourishing to a degree, but my Bible tells me that:
“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4)
Hi – i made an ‘oops’ in the previous post – where it reads:
“… the first ever Pope in history to come to Australia and partake of a Hillsong Conference… ”
it should have read:
“…the first ever Pope to come to Australia and partake of the World Youth Day conference, supported by Hillsong band”
Sorry for the mistake, as I edited several other parts of that post, but left that one hanging there – apologies for any misunderstandings as a result…
Austin
i must say i have never heard of the term, corner shop churches. thats a really interesting one.
i think what most churches are lacking today, is they are not very creative and diverse when it comes to their musical worship.
there are many churches who preach the word of god and who can really pray. yet they have average musicians when it comes to their music ministries.
hillsong know this and they play on this, they invest so much time and money into their worship music.
and this is why they are taking over the world, apart from bethel church with jesus culture, bethel music and passion city church with the passion band in the states.
and planetshakers in australia, who can compare to hillsong, this is the problem.
average churches just dont compare to the megachurches that are defiling the body of christ with their worldy gospel.
Mr Hatch – nice to hear from you again – I was brought up in a small town (10,000 pop) where corner shops were everywhere at one stage – probably as a result of its history as a fishing village initially, and later on as a mining town, but eventually, Woolworths came one day in the 1960’s, and that was the beginning of the end for most of them.
The only department store in town, mysteriously burnt to the ground a short time later (an insurance job, maybe?) but one by one, they all closed, until out of 11, all but 3 were left. Their empty hulks were converted back into housing, from which they had originally come.
I grew up watching this happen. Supermarkets could deliver price and quality on their line items much better than the small, independent, family run “corner shops” which have since been replaced by the more upmarket (and very expensive) 24/7 convenience stores. The corner shop was not just a place to shop at, it was a place where the neighbourhood met and talked – a place of friendship too.
A similar thing seems to have happened in the church – the small churches were quite often more homely. Everybody knew everybody else, and there was no place for false prophets and people with wrong agendas to hide. You could feel the love and experience a genuineness that is lost inside the larger mega churches of today.
As for the mediocre music ministry – well, 30 years ago, I was that young man up on stage, playing noisy music in the ears of my elders – 20 years ago, I was running the sound system and the tape library (yep, they still had ‘tapes’ back then,) – 10 years ago, I was that older guy sitting down the back yelling out “who’s that young man up there, making all that noise – can you turn it down please?” – it used to be me 🙂 – how times change Mr Hatch! Mind you, it was never “rock music” in my day…
What has happened here in Brisbane, is that the premier NAR church (formerly known as the Glory Gathering, but recently rebadged as “Glory City Church”) has been busy “attracting” that talent of which you speak, from all of the other, lesser churches who are of the same ilk.
NAR cloned churches are often only too happy to surrender their youth and young adults to the larger and more influential churches, in order to forge firm links with them – I’m not sure as to why, but it happens quite regularly. Maybe it’s to add to their numbers, or it could be to stave off any potential threats to that growth?
It may seem a bit nostalgic, but I remember fondly the days of the corner shop – and the days of the ‘corner shop church’ too, and both seem to have faded from the scene only to be replaced with business models that may work for some, but they are not building the neighbourhood (or the Kingdom of God) like the establishments of forty years ago did – naturally or spiritually.
I can’t begin to imagine just what plans Rome has for its ‘erring brethren’ – heretics, according to the Council of Trent. The findings of that council have never been revoked. It also makes one wonder just what role places like Hillsong think they may have to play in this coming one world, Godless religion, doesn’t it?
http://thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-the-council-of-trent/
Austin, As a resident of Brisbane i completely agree with you. It was with great sadness that I read about the closure of a community church at Salisbury that lost most of it’s congregation to Hill$ong Mt. Gravatt. It broke my heart. I have recently left one of the “other” mega church movements in this city for this same reason. The church was being run as a business, little to no mention of Christ and Him crucified and people were just a commodity. There was idolatry of the building (lets make the building Bigger, better etc.) and tickle the ears lets make you feel good about yourself preaching.
Chris – “lets make the building Bigger, better etc” That one little word, “better”. I wonder what they mean by that?
Provide plusher seating, better sound systems, bigger lights, another smoke machine, uber-cool café, bigger office for the CEO pastor?
Or let’s be “better” than the other small churches in the community, those faithful little ones that preach the gospel, relying on the Holy Spirit to do His transforming work through the Word without all the attraction of the above?
CW – I know of several churches here in Brisbane that “started to build the front” but couldn’t finish the back – at all. It was embarressing for them as people drove past (sometimes for several years) and saw the unfinsihed work of these wannabe churches.
You can see the cogs turning as various ones have boasted “I’ve got a big church too” but then the scripture comes along that says:
“For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, ”
(Luke 14:28, 29)
Of course the context of the passage is counting the cost in terms of commitment to the Kingdom of God, but in principle, the same could be asked as to why the congregant’s money has been spent on such large and lavish egos – I mean buildings? Why indeed? Is there some kind of ‘competition’ going on between the various Dukedoms of Deception, to see who can build the biggest sandcastle and get there first?
It is also an embarressment to the people of God in general, whom the world will mock because the “Tower”of Babble” ministry headquarters wasn’t finished, or was not finished for quite some time. When it is finished, the world often begins to ask the leaders:
“How come you spent $5 million on a building when there are 130,000 homeless people on the streets of Australia as we speak?”
And that’s a question that Jesus Christ will probably be asking those same leaders at some later date too…
Chris, I would like to contact you offline if that is OK? I live in Brisbane’s inner city, but perhaps we can arrange a meet up somewhere? Just post in if you’re interested – i’d like to hear more.
Chris, I’m just wondering if this is the Salisbury (Brisbane) church you were talking about:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/east/ninetythree-year-old-st-mary-magdalenes-is-closing-while-hillsong-grows-bigger-than-ever/story-fni9r0lo-1226829479184
@Chris – I’ve given the motives for this “vacuum cleaner ministry” that these larger churches have, and it does seem to fit in well with the Dominionist concept of “one city wide church”, with one group of leading ‘apostles’ and the odd ‘prophet’ thrown in for good measure.
That’s probably why in their minds, all of the smaller ‘corer shop’ churches have to go – no opposition to the plan whatsoever. Doesn’t matter if you and your spiritual forebares were there for generations, faithfully serving God, it’s time for a “change” and theat means the end of the smaller, non compliant, (non cloned?) churches to disappear – forever.
It also explains, in part, as to why all of the monthly inter church youth/young adult meetups occur too. If you are an enterprising “apostle/prophet” in downtown Brisbane, then you’ll probably only want to poach the most talented and available youth for your empty spots on stage, won’t you?
What better ay to do this, than to host a twice monthly “swap – meet’ where potential leaders and musicians are marked for the next round of inter church ‘swaps’? These meetings also provide a venue that is “youth only’ and they are often run by people who are no older than their early to mid 20’s, if that!
No mature, experienced, reliable and Biblically sound adults there to prevent “fire tunnels” from ‘engulphing’ first timers, or “worship (rock) music” or to provide any sort of guidance or protection to the youth who are attending – at all?
People my age (54 – male or female,) were absolutely ‘verboten’ from attending anything that was youth related, under the guise of “protecting them from undesirables…” wheras it is the atmosphere that is generated by these monthly musical ‘smoke and mirror’ shows, that is not conducive to spiritual growth or learning of any kind – that is what is undesirable.
This kind of ‘cross-polination’ that occurs between different church youth groups on a regular basis, is one means of breaking down any barriers to “fellowship” based on Bible truth, and what starts with the young, may well end up with whole churches coming together, based on feelings, experiences, a ‘good time in God’ and little else.
What may have kept truth fro error in the past, may well be simply gotten rid of, with all of the current NAR experiential doctrines and practices filling the void…
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” (2 Tim 4:3)
All Satan has to do is find the “itch” and then use worldly methods already embedded within the Laodicean church to “scratch” it…
“Bigger” is easily defined by Paul de Jong here in NZ !!!
It means more multi-site buildings and expanding Overseas to Melbourne and Kuala Lumpa !!
It means a bank loan of NZ$40million which requires NZ$54,000 PER WEEK to service !! (that was a few years ago when we were attending this Church as so called Leaders)
Hence the Business Arm of the Church where the Church not only owns a number of Businesses but also recruits wealthy Businessmen to try and meet this huge commitment.
My dollars go elsewhere now, into helping PEOPLE not funding buildings.
I asked once at one of the Leaders meetings where all the funds would go if the Church went belly up and had to be liquidated. Guess where………………………. yep, Brian Houston and his lot are in the mix !!!!
Hello KP thanks for that input – it’s always nice to know just who’s who in the mega church world. $40 million eh? Wow, that’s an incredible amount of money – imagine what genuine missions could do with that world wide…
I do hope that honest, hard working family oriented people see through these scams and ext stage left, just like you did. My money goes to help the saints in third world countries.
It seems that they are the poorest and most destitute of all believers, and are under constant attack from extremists, communists, rebels, their own governments and are by and large ignored by “mega churches” in first world nations. .
Just one more thing to add to the discussion for now – a link to an article by Tony Dean of Moriah Ministries, Adelaide – a report on the “corporate takeover” of Garden City Christian Church some years back:
http://www.moriah.com.au/textarchive/hillsong-corporation.htm
Austin
you seem to be the generation just before me, im 45 and i do remember the churches were the place for everything taking place in peoples lives, they were where peoples first went for all their information of everything happning in their community.
its sad that most churches today are, always preaching about rasing up the next generation.
in other words, young people will do as they are told and they wont ask any questions. once they have them when they are young, they have them for life caught up in so much deception that they cant get out of.
2 corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
2 corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
its really sad that only these megachurches make all the column inches in print media for all the wrong reasons.
@MrHatch – yes, the churches in my home town were there for their folks and indirectly for the neighbourhood too. They were there in the good times, and also in times of crisis – death in the family, kids in trouble with cops, destitution, unemployment.
There was usually a helping hand back then from someone or other connected to a local church. This was nothing like the social gospel being peddled today – it came from a heart that loved God and wanted to express that love in outward workings towards the community.
From welfare aid, (as much as they could muster), to the annual ‘church fete’, the local churches of varying flavours, were usually solid community places. Not that they compromised on their beliefs, but they weren’t money raking institutions either.
People were treated as people, not as commodities – not as “tithing units” like that moronic ‘church growth’ industry makes them out to be, and has all but replaced the local church in the modern world with an ersatz business model.
Mega churches are an embarrassment to Jesus Christ, who said:
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18)
…but they prefer to build their own worldy version of it instead. If the ‘gates of Hell’ are prevailing against any “church”, then maybe Christ didn’t build it?
Constantine, the first so called ‘Christian’ emperor of Rome, demolished 2 pagan temples and built the very first “church” building, using the very same bricks from those 2 temples.
I’m just wondering where Brian and Phil are getting their “bricks” from lately – Rome?
its a shame that so many young people are taken in by these megachurches, blessing prosperity and success has taken over the word and truth.
john 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
1 corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
colossians 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
1 timothy 6:7
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
james 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
1 john 2:15-17
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
so many christians are taken in by this worldy gospel, being preached in these megachurches today.
when the bible makes it so clear, so many different bible translations so many mixed messages being preached from the pulprit.
until more and more christians start reading the bible for themselves, instead of getting second hand information from preachers.
many will fall away from the faith, they wont be able to endure what is to come.
I don’t mean to be faceitious here, but maybe the youth get a “starter kit”? Something like – a Message ‘bible’, a t-shirt with the church logo and name on it, and of course there’s the latest music CD, and maybe even a trial/freeby DVD for mum and dad of the preacher’s most famous (feel good, Laodicean) ‘sermon’?
I know that many of these churches use some cult tactics to get people in and keep them it – love bombing at the front door, lots of “friends at church” (who can very quickly evaporate if you uset the hierarchy, even a little bit) – church ‘socials’ (youth only events) – being taken to your very first few ‘connect group’ meetings by your peers – given odd jobs to do after a little while to get you involved and make you feel ‘committed’ etcetera…
I had all of that offered to me (bar the youth outings) at the NAR church I attended back in 2012, and no way was I a candidate for the youth group! It just goes to show that the sham that operates as the modern emergent church, has really been taught well by its secular mentors from the church growth mob, how to get people in and keep them in, using worldly marketing and people management skills – and yes – even a mild smattering of cult tactics into the bargain.
What chance do these young, impressionable, inexperienced and sometimes vulnerable young people have, against those odds? And if the kids like it, then maybe mummy and daddy will too…?
Who needs repentance or real Bible truth, when you’ve got entertainment and fake bible (Message) type truth so you can have a good time at church, and at home? Nobody!
So Darlene Zschech is a worship pastor? I get worship leader, but how does she qualify as a worship pastor?
Hi anitameg2014 – here it is in her own words:
http://www.churchleaders.com/worship/worship-how-tos/161822-darlene_zschech_10_essential_traits_of_a_worship_pastor.html
I noticed right down the bottom of that article, the following too:
“Darlene leads worship most weeks for the Hillsong Television programm (the official website says that the programm reaches 125 countries around the globe). Hillsong made global headlines when their 2004 live CD release, For All You’ve Done reached number one in the Australian secular music charts.”
Many Hill$ong members think it’s a good thing – that the world is liking “Christian” music – it’s no easy feat to get to the number one spot on the charts in a wordly setting – lots of blood, sweat and tears, and of course, all the right “connections” too. The thing is, that the world loves the music (and some would say they like the words as well) but how can that be?
if Hill$ong were conveying a true Gospel message of repentance before God, via their music, the world would probably hate it – despite the fact that the music itself is professionally done.
If the world likes the music, despite Hill$ong’s ‘message’, then it can’t be the Gospel they are preaching through their music, because the true Gospel would cause offence, and the ‘music’ would never make it to number one… on anybody’s chart…
“Darlene, alongside her husband Mark, are Senior Pastors of Hope Unlimited Church on the Central Coast of New South Wales, Australia.”
http://www.darlenezschech.com/biography/
It seems she has ignored the biblical admonition that women are not to be pastors or elders.
http://carm.org/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders
And this:
Although I am unwilling to judge other groups of folks who claim to love Jesus in a different way than I may have chosen, I do have some personal “insight” I wish to share here.
I live in the US, and just came upon the “livestream” of their Sunday worship, and chose to tune in; I’m listening to them sing love songs TO Jesus as I write this post.
(Many sing “about” Jesus, and many sing “to” Jesus – I feel our Lord sees into the hearts of men and loves both types of songs.)
As I read the group judgments made by the posters, a scripture came to mind.
“For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” (1 Cor. 9:19-23)
I pray we can ALL learn about the true love of Jesus the Christ, and we learn the importance of love. When Jesus was asked what He believed were the greatest commands, He DID NOT say a perfect theology or understanding was most important, but He said we should love our Lord with ALL of our being, and love our neighbors …
Jesus thought LOVE was MOST important – what say you?
And what does the N.T. say about False Teachers, Lance?
Or did you never read 2 Peter 2:1-3?
Dearest Jonathan, I have read that scripture and read it again, at your urging. Peter describes false prophets, and says God will bring judgment against them. But can YOU tell me, in that scripture, where it says YOU are supposed to attack them or correct them?
It doesn’t!!
But it does ALSO tell us to BEWARE of false teachers. Be prayerfully sure NOT to become a false teacher by your postings!!
I truly pray WE (you, I, and all who call Jesus Lord) can learn to love our Lord’s creation – especially the part of His creation that does not agree with our “pet” theology; and I pray that WE can ALL have a unity in the Spirit in a bond of peace …
“But can YOU tell me, in that scripture, where it says YOU are supposed to attack them or correct them? It doesn’t!!”
Come on, are you a child? You are acting like one. Of course it tells us in *other* verses to *avoid* them. They point is this one warns us they *exist*. But you in your tirade act like we should overlook them. Oh, and in your “pet” theology you want to even *unite* with them. Amazing.
So Sherlock, since you think you know so much, come on, name 5 false teachers currently teaching in the Church today. I bet you can’t. Let’s hear ‘em!
You said, “So Sherlock, since you think you know so much, come on, name 5 false teachers currently teaching in the Church today. I bet you can’t.”
You got me on that one, Mr Caiaphas, I’m unable to judge their hearts; since I cannot take your “bet”, I shall take my “tirade” back to the loving arms of our Lord. Blessings on you my dear brother …
LM: “But can YOU tell me, in that scripture, where it says YOU are supposed to attack them or correct them? It doesn’t!!”
Ephesians 5:1 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather *reprove* them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are *reproved* are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
reprove
rɪˈpruːv/Submit
verb
reprimand (someone).
“he was reproved for obscenity”
synonyms: reprimand, rebuke, reproach, scold, admonish, remonstrate with, chastise, chide, upbraid, berate, take to task, pull up, castigate, lambaste, read someone the Riot Act, give someone a piece of one’s mind, haul over the coals, criticize, censure
1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin *rebuke* before all, that others also may fear.
See above synonym.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, **receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed**: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
http://www.teachingtheword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?blogid=7302&view=post&articleid=85655
http://www.teachingtheword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?blogid=7302&view=post&articleid=85658
P.S. It is time for you to stop thinking like the (unsaved) world. The postmodern world says to omit the painful truth to appear loving. Truth and love are equally important. Half-truths – no matter how well-intended – are lies.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
No loophole given for “unless truth may hurt their feelings or sounds too negative”.
If YOU are the Pastor of the flock in which these men fellowship, and you have chosen to judge them, then it is YOUR JOB to reprove them, in private and with another brother present so that you also will not be tempted; if YOU are not their pastor or have a relationship with them, then you have chosen to put your nose into the business of others – where it does NOT belong!!
I have absolutely NO IDEA who these false prophets or false teachers are that you have chosen to condemn. I am convinced our Lord, Jesus the Christ, is jealous for us to have our eyes on HIM – NOT ON MEN!!
I don’t follow ANY man but Jesus only!!!!
You are so focused on the law and the letter, but the letter kills and the spirit gives life.
You act like this is some sort of competition – judging the hearts and souls of other believers, and then attacking them. By your sarcastic words, I perceive that you truly need to grow in humility, which leads to a spiritual maturity, and leave your “vitriolic bible arrogance” at the altar of repentance.
With THAT being said; (yes, you have pushed me into publicly reproving YOU for your “verbal” spiritual immaturity, which has led you to a lack of understanding of our Lord’s total love for all). I have no interest in making a “notch” on my bible. Since you are choosing to be led by the letter and not the agape love of our Saviour, THIS is my last post … you can debate the letter of the law with someone who is a like minded “Pharisaical” type – which is NOT me.
(This site, which judges and gossips about other believers, is NOT a healthy place for anyone who desires a “unity in the spirit in a bond of peace” fellowship with other believers, and a closer walk with Christ in the spirit, so as to learn to hear the voice of Jesus the messiah.)
I pray you may someday understand the words I have spoken to you, and that our Lord will help you (and I) to not be tempted by our personal arrogance, which leads to hearts of hatred and anger.
May the one and only judge of all men bless you and all on this site my brother.
Perhaps you should just stick to bass playing as sound exegesis isn’t your forte.
2 Corinthians 3:1-10
“Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!…”
Paul didn’t say that Scripture kills but the Spirit gives life. He’s saying that the Law/Letter “on tablets of stone” in the Old Covenant brought condemnation and death. But where the Spirit writes that same Law/Letter on the “tablets of human hearts” – it brings life.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
*some wisdom from the book of Luke*
“Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.”
and
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.”
Selah
Yes I knew I’d get you on that one. That was an easy bet.
And you don’t have to judge their hearts, you have some false piety, because the Bible gives the criteria by which to judge their actions, you just won’t admit it. Jesus puts it this way in Matt 7:16. “You will know them by their fruits.” So you don’t believe Jesus own words apparently. Do you think He was making that up? Or wasting His breath? Or talking into the air?
The Bible also commands you to judge it, but you won’t admit that to yourself either. Here’s Mr. Paul Caiaphas in 1 Cor 5:12. “For what have I to do to judge them also that are outside? do not you judge them that are within?” Here’s Paul Caiaphas again in Eph 5:11. “And do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even expose them.”
Why would you go along with these or any other wicked men anyway, Lance? Mr. Paul Caiaphas in Rom 16:17 puts it this way. “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.”
If you can’t come up with at least 5 false teachers, then you need to pray about it bro, because there are many more than 5. You have chosen not to see it, but instead to take up your own “pet” theology. Hopefully someday you’ll wake up like the rest of us did.
ps: I used to support all these types too. Hardly a pharisee, I was a big supporter of them…. especially Joel Osteen. until I took a closer look.
Here’s a question you need to ask for yourself, Lance: How many more scandals will it take, before you yourself start asking some questions.
Cheers.
*some wisdom from the book of Luke*
“Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.”
Martin u take verses out of context. Jjust picking /choosing what u want lifting it out from context.
This verse is refering when unsaved /the world hates christians, not christians rubuking /correcting othes which is biblical and has many verses says so.
As was spoken Martin. leave exegesis to other s. Yyou have slow knowldege of bible verse.
“Since you are choosing to be led by the letter and not the agape love of our Saviour, THIS is my last post … you can debate the letter of the law with someone who is a like minded “Pharisaical” type – which is NOT me.”
Why is it you come back to post which you say you would not do? To debate like a “Pharisaical type” which you say you would not do? What exactly is your problem?
It may be appropriate for you to consider the fact that Darlene is currently undergoing chemotherapy as she fights off cancer.
Before you go off into one of your attacks on her person and ministry, perhaps you should consider joining the rest of us in prayer for her to be able to remain in faith to overcome the cancer in the name of Jesus, and enjoy a full recovery.
This is not the time for barbs.
Gordy, we will join in prayer for anyone who needs it. Just to clarify, which comment is an attack? We’re sure it’s not the one that shows her tweet about the pope or the one that refers to the rightful role of women in the church.
Maybe you should just be sensitive to the needs of the said person right now. Let them get through their situation and lay aside all controversy for a while.
I hear she’s doing well and about to come back into ministry. Let’s praise God for her recovery and leave aside the opportunity for unkind remarks.
Gordy, I think it is a little disingenuous to suggest that this blog’s content is all about picking on Ms Zschech and everyone should stop now because she is battling cancer (or was since you have now pointed out she is recovered and back in business).
I think it far more likely that you are not happy with Ms Zschech being criticised in any event and that you are using her physical condition to try and shame others into being ‘nicer’ which essentially means to stop criticising her at all. This is a very low approach to defending somebody whom you believe is beyond reproach and does not in fact speak very well of your faith in Ms Zschech’s right standing at all. If she is preaching the true gospel, then this is her best defense regardless of her physical health. If you can’t argue her case based on scripture, then her health is actually a pretty poor reason to ask others to stop speaking out against her teaching and church. It is in fact a red herring.
She is a very public person who is recognized internationally, preaches her false gospel to a huge audience and is widely believed and quoted as though she is some kind of spiritual authority. None of the leadership in Hillsong are authoritative unless they are standing on the word of God, and unfortunately, they do not.
You have conflated two completely different issues. Ms Zschech is manifestly NOT a private person. Even her illnesses are clearly a point of public concern, therefore even moreso her teaching. She must be ready in season and out of season to give an account of her activities as a confessed born again believer and leader. If she is out of season because of illness, she is no less accountable to God. If her illness is life-threatening then how much more should we be concerned with her eternal condition.
Paul the apostle suffered greatly in his lifetime with all sorts of illnesses and weakness. At no point did he expect others to go easy on him because he wasn’t feeling up to defending the gospel. He fought like the true soldier and elder brother that he was, and he completed the race, having been cruelly murdered by Rome.If Ms Zschech is doing likewise, then even her cancer is cause for giving glory to God as God can give grace in the very worst case scenario. Clearly he has healed her and allowed her to continue to live and breathe. My prayer is that he will open her eyes to her own error and likewise allow her to live spiritually. Unfortunately right now, her spiritual condition is much worse than her physical one.
God’s word and his righteousness are transcendent. They are not dependent upon any one person’s life or health.. It would actually be far more hypocritical for people to say “oh, let’s go easy on Darlene she is having a hard time of it” as though this was all some kind of pointless theoretical discussion with no eternal weight. If this were the case, then you would indeed have a very good case and it would appear as though nobody on this blog has a compassionate bone in their body.
We are talking about something which affects Darlene’s eternal existence. My personal compassion for any false teacher has to be tempered by my concern that their error is having an eternal effect. I would far rather that any man or woman endure chastisement regarding false teaching in the temporal world and that they recognise that error than that we all remain silent and sit back and watch dispassionately as many run down the broad path towards their own destruction..
Now that you’ve got that off your chest, perhaps you can exercise some sisterly love and enough genuine compassion to join the rest of the Body as we pray for her complete recovery.
Even of you were right in your criticism, Jesus’ compassion is not reserved for the righteous. Your judgment of Darlene is both excessive and filled with your own agenda, theology and opinion. Incidentally she and her husband, whom she serves God alongside, left Hillsong a few years ago to start their own church.
If one of us hurts we all hurt. Being merciful, gentle and kind is to only scriptural, it also costs you nothing.
“I think it far more likely that you are not happy with Ms Zschech being criticised in any event and that you are using her physical condition to try and shame others into being ‘nicer’ which essentially means to stop criticising her at all.” I think you’re right, anitameg2014.
Not at all. We are all open to criticism.
I brought it to your attention in case you were not aware of the situation.
Now that you know, I guess you’re saying you don’t care anyway.
I think that anitameg2014 demonstrated she does care: “We are talking about something which affects Darlene’s eternal existence. My personal compassion for any false teacher has to be tempered by my concern that their error is having an eternal effect. I would far rather that any man or woman endure chastisement regarding false teaching in the temporal world and that they recognise that error than that we all remain silent and sit back and watch dispassionately as many run down the broad path towards their own destruction..”
Well Said Church Watcher
So you’d rather rebuke a cancer sufferer than assist them in their time of need.
Thankfully, you are in a minority with that kind of attitude.
If you call anitameg’s spray ‘care’ I think you might be seeing more of the Old Testament judgment view of the Bible than the New Testament grace, mercy and forgiveness in the gospel of peace.
When Jesus ministered to the paralysed man who was let down from the roof by his faithful friends he offered forgiveness for the man’s spiritual need before meeting his physical need with healing.
Gordy, just trying to work out the logic of your attacking one godly woman in defense of another godly woman? I don’t think you recognize true biblical admonition when it’s staring you in the face. Once again thanks anitameg2014 for your godly response. We appreciate your thoughtful comments here.
Minority? Yes, the way is narrow.
Psalm 141:5 “Let a righteous man strike me — it is a kindness; let him rebuke me — it is oil for my head; let my head not refuse it. Yet my prayer is continually against their evil deeds.”
Can’t believe you’d actually own up to rebuking a person going through treatment for cancer.
I am not ‘attacking’ anitameg. I am pointing out to her that her logic, theology and opinion are not only debatable but also out of order given the situation. She is entitled to her views, but in view of the information I passed on as she began the process of launching into denouncing a sister it would have been far more god;y had she realised the situation and applied kindness and a measure of grace.
And, yes indeed, since you have decided to persist with this extraordinary onslaught, I am defending a sister who is a godly worship leader, has written songs and hymns which glorify God, is clearly in love with the Lord Jesus Christ, and has a wonderful ministry which ministers to millions.
She is obviously submitted to her husband who is the senior pastor, and is not usurping his authority, but, being one flesh with him, complimenting his ministry as a godly wife ad acting with permission, which is appropriate.
I am defending her, now, yes, because, after I had requested that you show some sensitivity towards her situation, you decided she was fair game for your rebuke and denouncing attitude anyway.
You even justify yourselves by saying it is supposedly for her own good that you, the unknown critics of all that annoys you spiritually, choose to publicly denounce her ministry, faith, church and reputation from your position of self-righteous indignant posturing.
What I meant by ‘minority’ had nothing to do with the narrow way of Christ, but everything to do with your miniscule-minded attitude towards those who are going through a tough time.
Clearly, you have never been a cancer sufferer, or been around those who have to overcome cancer. I would have thought, as a woman, anitameg would at least have some degree of empathy for a sister who is overcoming breast cancer.
I hope and pray anitameg never has to go through the pain, anxiety, stress and perplexities of cancer whilst some group of insensitive so-called Christians turn on her for not measuring up to their level of religiosity and Biblical accuracy.
The key to recovery for cancer sufferers is hope, love and faith. Denouncement is not only cruel and heartless, but a long way away rom anything that resembles Christian virtue or charity.
Gordy the master of exaggeration as usual – you would love to blow this out of proportion because some, not all, have been “provocative” in their assessment. Anitameg2014 has given the most biblical response to the matter, demonstrating her own ability to comment in accordance to the rules of this site. She is correct in pointing your own “agenda”, interestingly sizing you up pretty quickly. You’re the one now using concern for a woman in treatment for cancer, to attack others, as if they don’t care. Nothing unusual about that, it’s your typical modus operandi.
I mean, from a critical point of view, since you have already started in on Hillsong on here, you had no reason whatsoever to continue with your rebuke and denouncement of Darlene once you had been informed that she is still in the recovery process from cancer.
You could have left off and continued with your onslaught on any number of issues you have problems with, including your claims of a false social catholic loving gospel. Instead you have prolonged it simply because anitameg decided that she’d rather dig in and issue forth her rebuke anyway.
You could have said, OK folks let’s leave this alone because we need to let her get through this difficult time.
Maybe you’d be far more spiritual than anyone else if deadly cancer ever gripped your body. Maybe you’d appreciate someone coming round to your hospital bed in the middle of the indignity of hair loss, nakedness and vomit-inducing chemo in the atmosphere of death of a cancer ward to rebuke you and tell you what a spiritual mess-up your ministry is, so you could repent as you fight off the cancer cells threatening to kill you. You wouldn’t need faith or hope around you. You’d yearn for someone’s heavy handed denouncement of your worship of God and service to the saints of God.
You don’t seem to know how to put on the breaks when it is required, but steam on through the red light regardless.
And your buddy even admits that he knew about the cancer and jumped into the backseat of your juggernaut in anyway, claiming innocence in regard to ‘attacking’ since he merely pointed to some article in an online magazine from sometime ago, which he then judges to be out of order. Kind of like Saul holding the coats of the stoners.
Maybe you should take a step back, think it over and look at yourself for a few minutes and take the decision to leave Darlene out of this for a while and focus on some other Hillsong annoyance you can contrive which doesn’t involve someone who is going through a life-threateig illness, because, if you continue in this vein, there is no way you come out of this with any kind of Christian honour, virtue or grace.
Gordy: bible chapter and verse for where commandment is given to NOT expose leaders/ teachers giving false /watered-down doctrine if illnesses/ personal tragedies occur in their lives. Thanks in advance.
It seems these days anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves pastors – does anyone bother to check if these people are qualified? So we’re to listen to Gordy as if he has some measure of authority over this site when someone offers a biblically clear, concise assessment of Darlene’s stance on Catholicism? Which Gordy then decided to make all about her illness, as if she has suddenly ceased to function as a discerning Christian.
Her illness aside, has Darlene offered an explanation to her tweet about the Pope? Was it blindly accepted by Hillsongers at the time, that this pope is worthy of merit? Has Darlene led people astray by using her reputation as a world-renowned worship leader, to point believers to the pope as an acceptable spiritual leader for these same Hillsongers?
We would be interested to hear if Hillsongers did find that tweet offensive in light of Catholicism preaching a false gospel that’s leading millions to hell.
You’re kidding me, aren’t you, thinker? Another one at the bedside of the cancer sufferer denouncing and rebuking her for worshipping God and glorifying His Son.
How about scripture and verse for that?
You could try to “bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load.”
Or, “for you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!”
Or maybe, “He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.”
So, now, where’s your scripture and verse for kicking a person when they’re down?
Your criticism of Darlene is highly subjective and based on your own theological stance. I am not of Hillsong, and rarely use their worship material, but of one thing I am certain, Darlene and her husband are saved, washed in the blood of the Lamb, preach the cross and resurrection, serve God with all their heart, do everything as unto Christ, worship God alone, and, amongst other things, serve God and His saints in all good conscience.
This attack on her is both unwarranted and becoming a disgrace.
Distraction tactic via guilt trips. You did not answer the question.
Again – please show the loophole, fine print, “under certain conditions” this command does not apply” verse/s where teachers/ leaders who are undergoing difficult personal trials are not accountable for their false teachings.
You failed to answer my question, thinker, after I had, in fact, answered yours.
1. The question you asked was loaded with your false accusation that your quarry is a false teacher, which I answered by telling you she is clearly not. Few true believers, whether Pentecostal or not, would agree with your claim, which is the basis for your need to justify hitting someone when they are down.
2. I answered you anyway, but you seem to think the scripture and verse I gave doesn’t apply to you. I repeat…
You could try to “bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load.”
Or, “for you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!”
Or maybe, “He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.”
The claims made after I had informed you that Darlene was fighting cancer were actually a defence of your seeming need to justify your desire to put down anyone remotely connected with Hillsong, regardless of their situation.
I have made my point. You seem to be planning to continue on your course, and have, indeed added to the original slurs.
Why not just simply examine your conscience and see if it has hardened recently.
You know full well that anyone with adequate comprehension skills plus a good understanding of the bible KNOWS those verses are commandments on how we are to interact and support our *brothers and sisters-in-Christ* Gordy. They are not referring to how we should approach supposedly Christian leaders who are straying off the straight-and-narrow path doctrinally.
e.g.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+John+1%3A8-11&version=KJV
Does it suggest any loopholes like in this case “but welcome them as a teacher if they’re having a hard time with their health” ANYWHERE?
Yes, well, as you should fully know, the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
Maybe you need to be Spirit filled and walking in the Spirit so that you are living with the fruit of the Spirit which will help you actually grasp what I am saying to you rather than seek some legalistic explanation as to why it might be a good idea to support Darlene at this time rather than criticise her publicly and justify a stream of false accusations about her salvation and ministry.
“If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
You do know about the Spirit, don’t you?
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.”
Spouting judgmental generalisms about people is easy. They apply just as much to you as anyone.
Are you saying Darlene is not your sister in Christ?
“You need to be spirit-filled”.
The usual WOF nonsense that presumes a believer doesn’t have the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12:13 “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
Ah- the “spirit gives life” strategy. One of the favourite phrases Charismatics use when shown a bible verse that contradicts their own personal opinion.
If scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit is true, the conflicting viewpoint is false. Bible outranks personal opinion or experience. If a person is truly “spirit-filled” their beliefs will align with scripture.
Whether or not Darlene is a Christian is not the issue at all. You are deliberately muddying the waters again. Church leaders are to teach the truth. Is she doing that when she openly supports ecumenicism?
Thanks for the lesson in who is Spirit filled. I mentioned nothing about how we are filled, only that we are to be continually being filled.
So are you filled with the Spirit, walking in the Spirit and producing the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self- control?
Consider:
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control
Sela…
And ‘the Spirit gives life’ is not a ‘strategy’, but is actually scripture, which you requested – “God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
So, yes, are you applying the Spirit of the Word or the letter when you request Biblical evidence for everything? Are you approaching Darlene with the Spirit or with the letter? By grace or by the law?
Is there any evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in your approach, or are you like churchwatcher, laying ‘her illness aside’ and publicly rebuking her regardless?
And are you saying that Darlene is not your sister in the Lord?
Gordy – I’m guessing you have a signed limited edition copy of Word of Faith false teacher Charles Capps “The Tongue: A Creative Force” sitting front and centre of your bookshelf?
Claiming to access the power of faith through speech is typical WOF aberrant theology.
After all, thinker, it was you who said, “those verses are commandments on how we are to interact and support our *brothers and sisters-in-Christ*”, which could only imply that you do not consider her to be your sister, so, therefore you must be claiming that those verses do not apply, because if you do consider her to be your sister in Christ, then you must apply them, since you are claiming the commandment.
To remind you of the scripture:
You could try to “bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load.”
Or, “for you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!”
Or maybe, “He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.”
You should, then, be bearing her burden at this time, and walking in love, which is also walking in the Spirit, and demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit towards your sister in Christ who is presently going through a life-threatening event.
You should show brotherly support and comfort, adding your prayers, not planning a public rebuke and condemnation of what you wrongly perceive to be a disagreeable ministry. Not biting and consuming your own sister in the Lord at this time, but helping her get through this difficult time. That would show true grace and humility.
Gordy- nowhere have I suggested that she is not a Christian. However I could not in good conscience fellowship with her as she agrees too much with Catholicism. As an ex-RC I know how dangerous that is. If you choose to label that as unloving and “rejecting a sister-in-Christ” then so be it.
YOU want a preacher who supports ecumenicism avoid being made accountable for her teachings, and you are using her health struggles as your guilt trip strategy to make us “meanies” back off. Do you believe you know better than the apostles?
Yes Gordy – interesting question from thinker. Do YOU support ecumenicism? What would be your response to a fellow believer who was thinking about “swimming the Tiber”?
Or at the very least “paddling” in its murky waters?
Re fruits of Holy Spirit: they are not automatically displayed in ways easily recognizable by other Christians.
Love of God will result in a love of truth. Peace in the midst of trials, including disagreements with fellow Christians. Longsuffering- putting up with ad hominem attacks and distraction tactics because we recognize God through His grace opened our own eyes to the truth.
churchwatcher,
‘I’m guessing you have a signed limited edition copy of Word of Faith false teacher Charles Capps “The Tongue: A Creative Force” sitting front and centre of your bookshelf?’
Thanks for your interest. I have an extensive library of very good books, churchwatcher, and, yes, amongst them I located the Capps book, but I can’t remember actually reading it. I may have, but it’s been a long time. It’s pretty basic. It was gift from a friend over 20 years ago. I prefer his book on the end times, which is interesting, and he wrote a very good book on angels. Long tome since I read them, though, and they were in an out of the ay section of our bookshelves. But these kind of books are the thoughts of men, not the actual Bible, which is our main reference tool for all things.
Front and centre we have about ten Bible translations, mostly leather bound and well read, mostly King James or New King James, a couple of other translations, some so worn out, especially in the Epistles, that they are barely readable. Surrounding them are a number of excellent concordances, commentaries by a variety of authors, Bible Dictionaries, Greek lexicons and study tools which are, again, well used. Today, of course, we also use electronic resources for study.
Amongst the books are a range of teaching including John McArthur, John Stott, Lloyd-Jones, David Pawson, C S Lewis, Spurgeon, Moody, George Fox, Hislop, F F Bruce, Finney, Barclay, John Piper, Bunyan, heaps of others, and a long list of varied material, including stacks of biographies on missionaries, which is one of our life focusses, biographies of other Christians like Faraday, Corrie Tenn-Boom, Billy Graham, some people you’ve probably never heard of who were in China, some classics on the 40s revivals, and few we collected from various garage sales and in second hand book stores.
Why do you ask?
By the way, if you think your words do not have consequences you need to read those scriptures in the context they truly apply to and maybe embark on a decent study. Then you will discover that words are very important. Every word, too.
Jesus wasn’t lying, you know.
Mock me if you will, but it won’t negate the truth.
Jesus said His words are spirit and truth. He said his word is quick and powerful to the division of soul and spirit, bone and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. We are naked and exposed before his word.
Never underestimate the power of words.
Thinker…
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control
Consider!
If she is saved she is your sister.
You should owe no one anything but to love them. I’m pretty sure you don’t consider me to be your brother either. Others here have intimated that, but, no matter, assuming you are saved, you are my brother, and I have no option but to walk in love with you. If cancer took hold of you in any way, I would drop all and any criticism of you and join in with an expected chorus of prayer.
Because you are my brother first of all.
All scriptural differences are of little consequence if I cannot display there fruit of the Spirit and lay down my life for you.
That is what I believe Jesus is saying to us as believers, as disciples and as His brethren.
Sorry. Bold text doesn’t seem to work on this site, so i don’t mean to shout. I was attempting emphasis of the fruit of the Spirit on both occasions.
Anyone who knows me understands that I have been a very vocal critic of Catholic dogma. The present pope is no less of a Marionist than predecessors, so I see no hope for a change in that direction, but a possible push for the fifth Marian Dogma.
My prayer for Catholics is that they find the true Christ, as it is with Muslims. The Catholic Church is a vast emporium of ideas, theologies and ideology, and includes some who are, I believe, truly saved, which only God can confirm. Muslims are coming to Christ in many countries by supernatural means, and I think prayer is a major factor.
But I would not cut off fellowship with another Christian for having a different view to me. This only encourages division, and rejects any opportunity of dialogue and a change of heart.
However, if they were teaching it in a local church community setting I was involved in I would likely apply sanctions to prevent their influence and ensure those they were talking to were effectively warned of the false doctrine, and have done so at times.
I am not an ecumenist in a WCC sense, and have been outspoke in their forums about this, but also prompted dialogues with ministers from different theological backgrounds who differ in this view, and occasionally with good effect.
Nothing is solved through hardline opposition to those we disagree with. God is against false doctrine, but he is also against divisions and schisms in the Body.
I actually have no problem considering you a brother in Christ Gordon although I have very different views to you. As far as I can tell you believe in all the core doctrines of Christianity unlike JWs or Mormons.
In real life I am unable to have much to do with certain family members because there is so much disagreement and conflict on matters that some outsiders may dismiss as unimportant. (Outsiders who haven’t had to deal with those issues I presume). To avoid unnecessary conflict I have chosen for all future interactions to see them only in public/ formal occasions.
In a spiritual sense I have the same attitude towards RCs and Charismatics. I have experienced the negative sides of theory put into practice for both denominations. I cannot be with people who embrace what I absolutely reject. I will support them if they need assistance against outsiders to Christianity e.g. atheists, but I will not let them/ choose to be with them as if they a fellow believer. I hope that clarifies my position.
P.S. I wish there was a way to correct wording/ spelling after entries. Blooming iTablet re-spells so much I find I end up omitting small words frequently!
Just for the record CW, I knew of Darlene’s illness several weeks ago and it didn’t prevent me from posting what I did – and all I did was to give a link so that her own words could be seen and people could then evaluate her reasons for themselves. No deception, arguementsor attacks from me… just the facts from her own mouth.
Indeed, if she is tweeting support for the Pope to a global audience, then I believe that Christian people everywhere should be made aware of that. That kind of gross deception is diabolical…
The scriptures are clear:
” Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Roman’s 16:17)
If they are acting or teaching contrary to sound doctrine (and that can include a messge conveyed via music,) then we are to mark and avoid such people, and by extention, warn others.
There’s a simple explanation as to what the words ‘mark’ and ‘avoid’ actually mean in the context of this scripture listed here:
http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-romans-16-17-18.htm
To be frank, I do not believe that anything I have seen here today constitutes any kind of personal attack on Darlene Zscheckh, her husband or her church.
What has been shared here is simple Bible truth on these matters, and it is plain and clear that some commenters who come here on a regular basis, simply cannot submit themselves to that truth…
darlene zschech has touched so many peoples lives with her singing songwriting ministry including myself.
yet the problem is all these worship leaders, is they have come from such corrupt church leaders that are so filled with deception.
romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
2 thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
glatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
2 timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
1 timothy 6:5
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
and this is the problem with most of the christian worship leaders, it is so caught up in the properity and blessing and success.
that is so rooted in pride.
proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
proverbs 29:23
A man’s pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
someone has to take a stand and speak out against, these false teachers who are destroying the church, with their lies.
Yes MrHatch – I think you are right. The corruption spreads like a cancer so that even seemingly good people can be affected to the point where they turn bad, and by ‘bad’ I mean doctrinally bad.
Some of these so called ‘ministers’ of these mega church businesses look more and more like Balaam every day, and here’s a few thoughts on just what Balaam may have looked like and how he may have lived:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Balak/Character/character.html
the church is turning into a social club filled with so many christians with their small talk waffle.
there isnt enough of building up edifying and setting people free. the church needs to come back to being a place of worship, hearing the word of god and prayer.
we need to get rid of this glorified social club, and social gospel that is ruinning so many peoples lives.
CW – I don’t remember anyone espousing “hate” on this site for Darlene Zscech.
If some of you folks out there are new to these issues, then the history of how it all began can come from no one better than the man who helped to build the “brand” for the first ten years of the Hillsong entity’s life – Geoff Bullock.
Geoff was the seniorl worship leader back in the early days, and when he left in 1994, Darlene Zschech took over that position.
I found an interview between him and media person Jennifer Saxton and I suggest very strongly that you folks read it, apprise yourselves of the facts, and understand that Hill$ong United is all about ‘marketing a brand’ and that this ‘brand’ cnveniently hides behind a rather thin veneer of ‘christianity’ which would be more accurately described as “churchianity” – and that is being very kind.
I leave you with this link to Geoff’s interview:
http://wooq.blogspot.com.au/2006/05/article-on-hillsong-church-high-cost.html
Austin – being “provocative” is not hate. Gordy is the one pushing that line as his normative distraction. That’s a great link to Geoff Bullock by the way.
And we would really appreciate a response from a lurking Hillsonger (and we know you’re out there) who saw Darlene’s pope-affirming tweet and has an opinion, one way or the other.
“It’s the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I’ve spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63)
The words of Jesus Christ are not to be toyed with under any circumstances. Do so at your peril.
Why must you constantly see threats, darkness and judgment to this scripture and not grace, light and redemption.
The words of Christ are the life giving Spirit and life itself. They are newness, freshness and abundance. “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”
God is actually love.
The first anniversary celebrations in 2009 of WYD08 in Sydney featured a discussion “Hillsong or Vatican Hill : Which is the True Church?”. https://m.facebook.com/events/90512292610/ Even though Brian and Joel Houston met with Pope Benedict at a meeting of Christian leaders during WYD, just a year later that friendship was seemingly gone.
And who can forget George Pell’s extreme disappointment when he was told that the woman who played Mary the mother of Jesus during the Stations of the Cross at WYD08 had left the Catholic Church to join Hillsong. http://m.smh.com.au/national/she-played-mary-during-world-youth-day-now-shes-defected-to-hillsong-20090221-8e5z.html