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Apprising reports,
T.D. JAKES HOSTS CHRISTINE CAINE ON TBN’S PTL TONIGHT
As I continue to battle through lingering health issues here at the online apologetics and discernment work Apprising Ministries, I’m doing my best to carry on and document for you the sheer rapidity with which doctrinal distinctives are now being obliterated.
You may recall I explained to you that James MacDonald Was A Bit Late In Mainstreaming T.D. Jakes. For you see, e.g. modalist and Word Faith mogul “Bishop” T.D. Jakes has already been preaching for Southern Baptist pastor Ed Young, Jr for nearly ten years now.
Not a peep out of milquetoast SBC leadership.1 Jakes also appeared along with Ed Young, Jr2 and Andy Stanley3 at the Hillsong Conference 2010,4 put on by the heretical Word Faith outfit Hillsong Church (HC), Australia. As HC pastrix Christine Caine informs us:
Jakes was also a featured speaker for Bill Hybels and Willow Creek Church in the summer of 2010 as well. Despite his denial of the Trinity, i.e. the very nature of God, there right alongside Hybels, Christine Caine, and some others, T. D. Jakes spoke at The Global Leadership Summit 2010.5
And then there was Jakes speaking the mainstream evangelical The Tension Is Good Catalyst Conference Atlanta back on October 6-8 of 20106 along with Andy Stanley once again, Francis Chan, and SBC-sponsored quasi-elder Beth Moore:
Notice how the same names keep cropping up like interlocking concentric circles of syncretism. If you think this is all by coincidence then I’d avoid anyone claiming to sell a large bridge in England. As far as pastrix Christine Caine, she is tip-of-the-spear for the advance of Word faith mythology of HC’s Brian Houston.
Yet recently we saw Word Faith Pastrix Fills In For Beth Moore during her Wednesday’s with Beth on Life Today TV of leading charismaniac ecumenicist James Robison.7 Caine’s become quite the evangelical darling because we’ve also witnessed John Piper Preaching With Hillsong Pastrix Christine Caine At Pssion 2014.
Evangelical Ecumenical Magisterium8 leader James MacDonald would have us believe that T.D. Jakes Has Repented Of Word Faith Heresy. The lineup tonight for tonight’s Praise the Lord (PtL) program on Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), hosted by T.D. Jakes, says otherwise.
As I explained the other day in Tullian Tchividjian On TBN’s Praise The Lord Tonight, PtL is the main vehicle used by TBN for fleecing the gullible within the Christian flock:
I’ll repeat again what I said in Franklin Graham Hosting TBN’s Praise the Lord—Christians faithful to Jesus send a better message by having nothing to do with TBN. As it is written:
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. (Romans 16:17-18)
Further reading
- MATT CHANDLER WITH ED STETZER AND PRISCILLA SHIRER TONIGHT ON TBN
- STEVEN FURTICK DEBUTS ON TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK AMID FINANCIAL CONCERNS
- JAMES MACDONALD ON TBN’S BEHIND THE SCENES WITH THE LATE PAUL CROUCH
Endnotes
- You can see that back in 2007 I made then SBC president aware of Jakes preaching in an SBC church in Dr. Frank Page Responds Concerning “Dr. Ed Young To Share The Pulpit With T.D. Jakes”.↩
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLxpkZtMtc, accessed 6/20/14. ↩
- http://christianvideos.orgfree.com/musicvideo.php?vid=ffcfc7f08, accessed 6/20/14. ↩
- https://www.facebook.com/events/115756188451785/, accessed 6/20/14. ↩
- http://www.willowcreek.com/ProdInfo.asp?invtid=PR34744, accessed 6/20/14. ↩
- http://www.rochestermedia.com/catalyst-2010-the-tension-is-good/, accessed 6/20/14. ↩
- For example, see this lunacy in the Lord’s Name: James Robison To Pope Francis “In Christ We Are Brothers”. ↩
- I explained e.g. in Steven Furtick Debuts on Trinity Broadcasting Network amid Financial Concerns that the EEM comprised of notable multi-site megachurch pastors seems to have sprung from the Elephant Room conferences of James MacDonald and his co-host Mark Driscoll. ↩
Source: By Ken Silva, T.D. JAKES HOSTS CHRISTINE CAINE ON TBN’S PTL TONIGHT, Apprising, http://apprising.org/2014/06/20/t-d-jakes-hosts-christine-caine-on-tbns-ptl-tonight/, Published 20/06/2014. (Accessed 21/06/2014.)
Hillsong Church Watch 
I use to think Hillsong and C3 were good churches. But now I realise they are worldly, materialistic, self obsessed, dysfunctional “cults”. You just can’t trust anyone anymore, in this world, they are all as sinful as the next. Wish I had realised this years ago :((
Annette, having spent the first 4 yrs of my Christian walk at HS I can say that I’m thankful God allowed me to attend the place, so I could see what it was all about.
15 yrs later my husband and I have walked completely away from the institutional church system and have simple, genuine fellowship with followers of Jesus in our homes. You cannot put a cost or charge on “ministry”/service. Jesus never did, nor did early church workers.
If only people studied the Bible for themselves instead of reading commentaries, we’d all be putting our money into getting the Gospel out instead of paying men to make us feel like we’ve done our bit for God for the week. (ie: the Sunday club)
Annette… All Christians will struggle with sin. Romans 7 highlights Paul’s experience with this. Don’t trust anyone who claims to be a Christian and asks money to minister to your needs.
Ministry is the responsibility of EVERY blood bought follower of Christ, not the select few who claim a “calling” which has no foundation in the Scriptures.
People need to come out from the religious systems and focus on walking in the Spirit and telling the lost about Jesus.
Beholdason,
My family and I are in a similar place after having experienced 15 years in an abusive church. We have struggled to find a church which preaches the gospel in our town of Brisbane, let alone one which isn’t caught up in the Hillsong franchise, and this includes those churches which are not connected to Hillsong denominationally. Many Baptist churches are getting caught up in the same traps that the AOG, or is that ACC have fallen into. In Brisbane, all the big churches have the blackened interiors, the mega door greeting guard of honour and the many-screened sound system overload. It is getting past a joke when you see so many clones getting with the programme without question.
I am curious to know how you are going with your home fellowships? Please contact me via my wordpress account if you would like to reply.
Sorry, the link has gone awol. I am at jairusdaughter.wordpress.com
I don’t have a problem supporting the work of God, but I draw the line in being told how much I should give, unless The Holy Spirit is leading me to. I also do not agree with being told my level of giving shows my level of spirituality. I don’t agree with the fact that they can check how much you are giving, however we can’t check what they are doing with it.
I am beginning to agree with you both. What I’ve experienced (as I know full-well that not everyone is perfect, which is why Christ died for our sins), is that the church my husband and I have attended faithfully for the past 4-5 years, is so inundated with politics, that it’s as though it has it’s own government. A small church with only 35-40 of us (as it’s also fairly new; 4 years old), should not have so many materialistic and worldly “needs” or wants.
@lisa- just curious… What do you mean by ‘worldly needs’
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
@ Annette – never mind – you know now and that’s what counts. It is a time of polarisation where everyone chooses whom they will serve, as Joshua did so long ago:
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)
Those people in such ‘churches’ have gone after ‘foreign gods’ the ones you mentioned – worldliness, materialism, prosperity, influence, notoriety,. It is strange how such a blindness comes upon them, after having read the scriptures for so many years.
Paul summed it up when he exhorted Timothy to avoid such people who believed that “godliness is gain”:
“3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (1 Tim 6)
Thanks Austin. Such a timely word.
Seems you are very jealous of the good Hillsong team. Beth Moore was the one who gave her adopted child back to his parents and he died. What types you like. Poor child. No love in her house
disgusted – no, I’m not jealous of Hillsong, I’m not jealous of anyone. My names written in the lambs book of life, and God is my father. This world holds nothing for me, so there’s nothing to be jealous of. I’m sorry to hear of Beth Moore’s tragedy. This world is full of hardship for both the Christians and non Christians.
“Seems you are very jealous of the good Hillsong team.”
Jealous of Brian “You Need More Money / The Pope is a Christian Leader / Christians worship the same God as muslims” Houston (A.K.A. Brian “Backtrack” Houston)?
Jealous of a man who is so “Spirit-filled” that he has to “withdraw” books that he has written? Jealous of a man who finds it necessary to issue public apologies for his so-called sermons? So tell us: was Brian Spirit-filled when he preached lies regarding the One true God? Or was he rather Spirit-filled when he published a retraction in which he lied about what he had originally said? Was Brian Spirit-filled when he wrote “You Need More Money”? Or was he rather Spirit-filled when he subsequently “withdrew” that book? Was Brian perhaps Spirit-filled when he claimed that the catholic “church” preaches the Gospel and that the pope is a “Christian Leader”?
It seems to me that for a bloke who has a reputation as such a hot-shot, Brian makes an awful lot of mistakes and mis-steps, and that he has to explain himself all too frequently. Of course, it’s easy to understand if one realises that Brian is not a minister of the Gospel at all; he is nothing more than a man-pleasing money-grubber; someone who has sold out to the world and who makes merchandise of the Gospel in order to further his own ends. But hey, if you don’t have the wit to understand that, don’t let me put off worshipping “pastor” Brian – it’s clear that you don’t know God, so you might as well continue to prostrate yourself before hillsong’s golden calves of prosperity and fame (who knows, maybe one day you’ll get to ride a Harley and wear a Breitling too).
Black carpet means you are of the devil? Whoa, missed that in my bible? What scripture/s do you reference there? I reckon we all better get about doing good, thats all Jesus required of us, hey? Yes, He did say to beware of false prophets, but i dont think its a legitimate ministry for anyone, I think loving thy neighbor is more important.
Hey Jay – “blackened interiors” not black carpet. It’s funny though, how the seeker churches today want to create an atmosphere that’s more conducive to a rock concert that to a worship/church service. The emphasis on darkened interiors seems in antithesis to the Light that would shine through the preaching of the Word. The focus then being on that same Word and not on the highlighted (literally) singers and speakers on the stage.
sorry, so blackened interiors means you are of the devil? I am obviously being facetious, but i reckon the Church is where two or three gather in His name, not a building, not a service, not a liturgy, but a gathering in His name. I have been involved in two Church’s in my life, one in NZ and and one in AUS about 15yrs in each and I see fault in them both all the time, if I choose to look for faults, but i don’t, well not all the time, I look for Jesus, I worship Him, I give to Him and I serve Him. You see when I gave my life to Him many years ago chose to give up fault finding and back biting, and pursue Prov 22;11 He who loves purity of heart, and whose speech is gracious, will have the king as his friend. I am not criticising this blog or others, I just wonder how the writers justify it in the face of scriptures like Rom 2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? I am not a C3, Hillsong or other Pentecostal church fanatic, I attend a local church and do what I can in the community to make Jesus known through what I say and what I do.
I cant wait for the day where lovers of Jesus accept one another and their expressions and individuality and get on with reaching the world who haven’t even heard of Him yet…
Jay – Be interested to hear your thoughts on how the body of Christ expresses a view or warns others about false teachers. Do you think false teachers are “lovers of Jesus”?
“I cant wait for the day where lovers of Jesus accept one another and their expressions and individuality […]”
While you are busy scattering abroad your pearls of wisdom in a warm and fuzzy haze of lovey-dovey inclusiveness, and while you are absorbed in an enraptured inspection of your own navel (which is, no doubt, ever-so-engaging), the heretic and liar Brian Houston is assiduously working to ensure that God’s Gospel remains veiled and that multitudes continue to be led astray and ultimately be consigned to a Christ-less eternity in the lake of fire.
You can rest assured that “lovers of Jesus” of Brian’s ilk will be vomited out of God’s mouth – along with all of Brian’s lily-livered apologists who never have anything to offer beyond meaningless platitudes…
Amused, while I agree with you, there is no reason to belittle those who have different thoughts.
The Christian content in hill song is very poor, and can often be sung to a friend, lover etc, and it is a massive money making machine for Hill song, but we get no where by belittling others.
@gaye45 – I’m afraid that I have to agree with Amused on this one – the Hillsong ‘gospel’ is no ‘gospel at all – it is no better than “Anthony Robbins with a Bible in his hand” – shallow motivational garbage, designed to deceive the gullible masses and to money-rake them for the umpteenth time.
What ‘gospel’? Which ‘Jesus’ – which ‘spirit’? The one that openly shakes hands with the Pope and welcomes unrepentant gays into its goat fold?
The Christian content in Hillsong is virtually non existent – it is there in name only, as lip service, and a smokescreen for their hidden agendas and nothing more…
I have to put a retraction in on what I said, I said that only one had gone in, perhaps it would have been better for me to have looked further than saying what I did, sorry moderator..
That’s ok gaye45 – the moderators aren’t always online to approve comments. We do get a lot of trolls and spam and “Gordy”.
Thanks churchwatcher.. one thing we must not do is blame God for these people who we think are wrong, I am amazed that people can be so nasty to each other…. It does not worry me if someone has a different way of thinking, God will sort out who is wrong when he is ready, and it could very well be me… LOL..
when i think of what Jesus told me to do, when i get stuck on what i should be doing, i always go back to, Mtt 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age
That’s what He left me with.
When I look at what Jesus did when He came across false teachers/prophets/harsh preachers of the law, he scolded, left people in no doubt what He though of them, then and moved on to preach the truth. He never went looking for them, He came across them in life’s situations and used the situation. He did put up placards and protest, He moved on because He knew what He preached, the Truth had more power than anything anyone else could say.
Light will always destroy darkness, judgement isn’t light, well I don’t think it is, is it?
Come on, lets preach a resurrected Christ and let the world see the results!
What you’ve typed there looks much too like “red-letter Christian” style thinking. http://www.dennyburk.com/pauls-rebuke-of-red-letter-christians/#more-21397
JESUS trained his apostles, therefore what they said, did and *wrote* in the New Testament is from Jesus Himself, including commands to other Christians/ churches to expose and rebuke false teachers!!!!
ooppsss couple spelling errors in my last post…
He didn’t put up placards…
Nevermind, I am sure you get where i was going…
Amused – yeh, not going to get into sarcasm and name calling, not into it.
“[…] not going to get into sarcasm and name calling […]”
It’s so hard to have the courage of one’s convictions when one doesn’t actually *have* any convictions, isn’t it?
I suppose you’d prefer that we all held hands with Brian and sang “Kumbaya”.
Not looking for a fight thinker, just want to see the Church go ahead, you? I assumed that we were all Christians on the site wanting to build a better church? I agree with what you say exposing false teachers etc, just dont think its a worthwhile ministry, I think its gets done in the journey of building what He left us to build, the Church, you know, the great commission thing?
Sure- all Christians want the church to go ahead and perform the Great Commission. What is the church? Consumers or believers? Viewers or servants? Followers of destiny/ life-change or followers of God? Man-pleasers or God-pleasers? People with a new purpose or repentant sinners?
Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6).
Do you want the church to follow Jesus’s ways? He commands us to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him. (Mark 7:34). Does Hillsong ever tell its viewers to deny themselves to please God?
The mature Christian is expected to grow in discernment, to tell the difference between good and evil e.g. truth and error. (Hebrews 5:14). Houston didn’t try to make it clear that Muslims and Christians *don’t* follow the same God until there was a major backlash against what he said!!!! Is that acceptable for a supposed church-leader? Do you think he was being a true church-leader in God’s eyes?
Is Jesus Himself or a person’s spiritual walk the focus of Hillsong’s teachings? Are sermons or personal testimonies the bulk of theit speeches?
You may dismiss this all as hair-splitting but the Christian has to be focused on Christ. The Church has to bring people to CHRIST. Is Hillsong (and the many other ecumenical churches that follow its formula for church-growth) doing this when they leave out doctrine that can offend UNSAVED people?
Sorry, where did I lack conviction?
Mmmmmmm, Kumbaya is a bit outdated Amused, maybe I’ve got joy, joy, joy down in my heart, down in my heart??
Leave ya with it.
Jay’s comment above quoting Matthew 28 reminds me of the marketing ploy of WWJD? People imagine what Jesus would say or do in this situation or that and forget that he is not some paper cut-out who once said something great. Our walk with God is a living thing. It isn’t a perpetual reiteration of something Jesus told his followers 2000 years ago. Scripture is alive and the word is sharper than a two edged sword. If that word isn’t cutting between spirit and soul then it isn’t doing its job. Jesus didn’t ‘leave us with’ his word, his word is continually being made alive through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when I read Paul’s words over and over in just about every letter he wrote, warning people to stay away from false teachers, to reject those who teach error and practice lawlessness, to make sure you are not being deceived or seduced by the enemy, then I see an active faith which encourages us to stand up for the gospel, to proclaim, to alert and to ensure that others can see the evil which creeps up behind them under cover of ‘niceness’ or ‘inclusivity’ or ‘embracing one another’s differences’. People always make the mistake of assuming that ‘making disciples’ means seeing new converts. A disciple is somebody who lives the gospel.
In fact, there is a Youtube video which somebody put up on this blog a few weeks ago where Ray Comfort, an evangelist who has carried out the great commission for many decades, challenges Christians to stop living carnal lives (fornicating, watching pornography etc) and because he himself is living the gospel, he is able to chastise those who are not. What appals me is that these people who claim to be Christians have absolutely no problem admitting their sins publicly (and to a camera) and not only that but are boldly and happily carrying on living carnal lives with absolutely no shame. This is the sort of lifestyle which needs to be challenged, and this is the sort of lifestyle which is the result of false gospels, doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. These are the sorts of things that preachers and pastors need to be talking about, not getting God’s blessings, or creating a larger church organisation. These are the sorts of things which Paul and Jesus condemned and told the believers of the day to stop doing!! If we have a relationship with Jesus, we too are governed by the same Spirit which governed them.
This is a war and we must be constantly on our guard against the works of the enemy. And yes, those who write against the false teachers are prone to their own particular weaknesses and can face the problem of being too dogmatic. But when you have witnessed the devastation which occurs in people’s lives when their faith has been snatched away and their families destroyed because they were asleep at the wheel or more interested in playing ‘nice’ than standing up against the lies, then you realise that it is better to err on the side of too much than on the side of too little concern. We need a balance there is no doubt. We need to be both bold and humble
Thanks Anitameg2014. 100% agree, conversion does not mean discipleship, but you gotta start somewhere.
Is there a church that someone would recommend, that ticks the boxes that people are talking about here? I’d like to visit it.
so what, in 3days no one can tell me of a good Church to go visit? Anyone see a problem with that?
Where do you live, Jay?
I am surprised you didn’t get a response either. What churches are available in your area within 1/2 hour drive away?
I had to research different church denominations in my suburb before I moved to a capital city a few years ago. Most churches have a website that give their core doctrines. Not 100% foolproof of course. e.g. some non-denominational churches are down-to-earth, others are extreme Charismatics. I ended up attending a Baptist church and last year joined another one in my new small town.
*Are their beliefs and values in agreement with the bible and core Christian doctrines? e.g. JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals absolutely prohibited. I would also immediately rule out pro-gay (like Uniting Church), Charismatic churches (attended one in another city, badly affected), women pastors (politically correct, ignoring clear directions in New Testament), New Apostolic Reformation supporters, Emergent churches. Sadly that immediately rules out a lot of churches.
Assuming you find one that sounds promising, make sure you keep your “buyer beware” glasses on for the whole service. That might be a bit challenging especially if the performances are very professional but it is worth the effort.
*Some might see a church built for a rock concert as a warning sign, but the Baptist church in my large city had a stage, band and drums. The worship songs were God-focused unlike one Hillsong-loving AOG church’s I had visited in another city. The IFB one I go to now is in the local public hall so that was never one on my checklist.
*Is the service’s strength the music or the sermon? Now I would rule out the music-focused church because experience tends to be valued more than (sometimes convicting) truth. Low effort put into preaching God’s Word is a bad sign.
*Are people’s emotions or minds engaged throughout the speech? Are heart-strings tugged and soppy music relied upon to “bring people to Jesus” and “close the deal” instead of calls to repentance and relying upon the Holy Spirit to convict the sinner?
* Compare what they say and do with what the bible actually says *in context*. Beware of speakers who throw in a few proof texts with no relation to each other to support their worldview instead of a careful examination of a passage/ concept. Doesn’t have to be verse-by-verse like my current one
* Beware of legalism “thou shalt tithe if thou wishst to be blessed” or cheap grace “nobody’s not perfect, just make a decision for Jesus and you’ll be right mate”. I felt a little uneasy the first time I visited the IFB and saw everyone dressed in conservative clothing but other than that there hasn’t been any hint of legalism.
Hope others feel free to add to what I’ve typed.
*…nobody’s perfect”, double negative error.
‘so what, in 3days no one can tell me of a good Church to go visit? Anyone see a problem with that?’
Jay,
Were you asking a question or issuing a challenge? Or were you just being ironic?
If you had a genuine question and then you just got frustrated because it wasn’t answered within the 24 hours that the Internet Blog Comment Rules require, then accept that maybe the rest of the world was a bit busy dealing with their lives and didn’t have the time to drop everything and provide you with a big Mac-church and ask if you would like fries with that. Do what everyone else has had to do and pray, pray and pray some more and get in some front doors here and there to test the waters. Alternately, you could read Thinkers very gracious response and apply it to your situation.
If on the other hand you were just putting a challenge out there to see how many of us actually know of a church which ‘ticks all of the boxes’ then you need to pull your head in.
Having the capacity to recognise what is wrong with a church does not immediately insinuate the expectation that every church must conform to an unspecified ideal..The only benchmark available to us is Scripture. You will find that Paul was pretty annoyed, to the point of sarcasm at times, with the behaviour of many of the churches in his day. He did not hold back on warning other Christians against those who were dangerous and also warning against heresies which were drawing others away to the broad path.
Deal with the actual issues, don’t dismiss everything that has been said with one sweeping redundant and self-evident statement, ie “There is no such thing as a church which ticks all the boxes”
I can recommend a church…if you live in Melbourne. 🙂
@jay. Sweet. Finally, you get to the heart of the matter. The ministry of ‘fishing out false prophets’ is important IN PRIVATE, not out here on the net for anyone to see. About blackened interiors…those of you screaming and shouting should actually go and study sound and lighting, and I think you’ll understand. But then… What do I know?
According to you the apostle Paul did the wrong thing when he confronted apostle Peter in PUBLIC – see Galatians chapter 2. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+2&version=NKJV
I get your point. But get mine. Paul confronted in church, not in the market square.
The chance that a Christian website of this variety would be getting a lot of traffic from non-Christians would probably be very low. Therefore it could be argued this is a semi-private in-house discussion, internet version. I did not find this website following links from major mainstream news websites (e.g. Andrew Bolt blog from Herald Sun) – I did it from my own personal web-surfing. I expect most people did the same.
Then you probably didn’t read the small print as regarding blog advertizing and search engine hits. Besides, in my limited knowledge of God, I can’t see Jesus doing what you and others like you are doing now. If you can, honestly, I have no issue with you. Go on by all means
@ jesusfreak155, first you say Jesus confronted in private, then you say in church. You need to make up your mind as to what you believe.
As to… “I can’t see Jesus doing what you and others like you are doing now”…. Try reading Matthew 7:15 and Matthew 16:6 and for others Acts 20:29-31 and Jude 1:3. Then come back here and say that with a straight face.
Also, if you spent time educating yourself, rather than on here boasting, you wouldn’t be recommending Frank Peretti on your website. Do a little research on Frank Peretti.
Finally, just because YOU like some music (Hillsong United), does NOT mean the movement they represent are any good at all. Do not be naive. Educate yourself.
Jim Styles
Perhaps Jesusfreak might respond to these articles from a brother in Africa, this brother often referred to as the African “Charles Spurgeon”?
http://www.conradmbewe.com/2013/07/why-is-charismatic-movement-thriving-in.html
http://www.conradmbewe.com/2014/06/charismatic-teaching-is-breeding.html
If you can’t see Jesus condemning false teachers and corrupt religious leaders then you need to read the Gospels again carefully.
Public address to Jewish religious leaders Matthew chapter 23. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NKJV
The Gospel of John especially shows Jesus spoke with Jewish leaders extensively. e.g. in temple, chapter 8. Attempted stoning would unlikely to be able to be performed in a private home wouldn’t you think?
“Attempted stoning would unlikely to be able to be performed in a private home wouldn’t you think?”
touche! i like that,
nfg
I feel that the issue is our definition of the word ‘public,’ as relates to the body of Christ. I define public to mean OUTSIDE the church, which is the body of Christ. Get me right, your discernment may, and I use the word ‘may’ generously not wrong, your mode of sharing that discernment however, is. The world wide web is just not the place for that. I DO NOT SEE JESUS POSTING ANY ‘DISCERNMENT’ CONCERNING PROMINENT CHURCH LEADERS ON THE NET FOR ANY UNBELIEVER TO READ IT. You may site the example of Paul publicly correcting Peter, but, I do not see Paul correcting Him (Peter) in the market square for say… the roman soldiers to see.
@Jim I would appreciate if you did not degenerate to insults on my person RE: ”Also, if you spent time educating yourself, rather than on here boasting…” and ”Do not be naive. Educate yourself.”
Its no longer an issue of ‘correction’, which should in all cases be done privately anyway as a many of human courtesy, let alone the biblical position. These days it is more about rogues and ratbags who, with money and power as their goals bring ruin and heartbreak to many. They leave behind a trail of human wreckage that is unseen because the people affected are no longer on the church scene at all. Forget the bull-shit spin and theological window dressing some of them put on things. Many know full well what they are doing, and they simply don’t care.
As a matter of interest, various senior leaders in the Yongii Cho group of churches – the biggest church in the world (or it was) are currently serving jail terms for fraud. So too are an increasing number of false preachers in the USA. And the amounts of money involved are breath-taking.
How we as individuals choose to respond to such situations is up to each of us to decide. I don’t have a problem at all with what Jarius’ Daughter writes, it may well save some individuals from being drawn into the various nets around.
I’m quite sure that so termed ‘unbelievers’ DO read blogs such as these. God can prompt and lead them just as easily as He does us, even if He does it in unusual ways.
Also – word gets around. A single victim of ‘church abuse’ nearly always has a wider family – children, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, cousins, aunts and uncles, grand-children. Its one of the many reasons church attendances in Australia and New Zealand are now declining, just as they have been for years overseas. People are no longer just ‘leaving the church’, they are never joining in the first place.
@jesusfreak – that may be so, but then again some would argue that Ananias and Sapphira died in a rather public manner under the judging hand of God, for dealing with the apostles in such a deceptive manner by lying about money – in Solomon’s Porch! (See Acts 5:1 – 13.)
This was a rather public place, probably the equivalent of a modern ‘shopping mall’ – Peter rebuked them publicly for their premeditated sinfulness and they died within hours of each other – you can’t get any more public than that…
“and great fear came upon the church, and upon as many as heard these thing…”
vs 11
A very public rebuke and severe dealing of God indeed… this scenario did not take place in a corner somewhere.
As for accusations of ignorant boasting, well that comes with the territory… but it does appear @jesusfreak, that you may need to do a lot more homework before taking others to task in areas where they appear to hold to sound doctrine and are only acting with your best (long term) interests at heart…
@Austin, ananias and sapphira were not public leader, did not have a following, and, they were rebuked by public leaders in the church (the apostles). as for the accusations of ignorant boasting… perhaps you or jim would like to clarify exactly what I boasted about. and as regards knowing what you are talking about… well, anything i say would still be interpreted as boasting until we clear that up
*ananias and sapphira were not public leaders* oops
@andronicus I think I understand your position now… But, I still think this should not be done online for the whole world to see. Maybe it is just my African mentality…
Yes, but to be completely fair, these days many who attend such churches are in fact paying the biblical penalty for their own desire to have their ears tickled with pleasant things. However, there is what I call a ‘cross-over’ point for both the deceived and the deceivers, that point where they ‘knowingly’ make a choice to stay with the lie, rather than face up to uncomfortable truths.
So, if you do not have a love for the truth, then (eventually) it is God Himself who sends a spirit of deception, but of course it is STILL up to the individual even then to ‘make a choice’ to accept it. But once THAT ‘final choice’ is made….. the ‘cross-over’ point is reached and passed.
Some of those who post on this site have made that choice, others are moving towards it, but are still caught in the thought that they ‘must’ attend some ‘structure’ called ‘church’ in order to qualify as a christian. Which means they’ve merely just swapped one ‘man-designed’ structure for another one
In the meantime of course, the real world and the unsaved in it are moving towards an ultimate terrible fate, from which they will not be spared. Partly because there is far more time spent by ‘christians’ in navel-gazing about ‘where is a good church that “I” can go to’ rather than asking God what it is they should be doing with their time.
There are no end of ‘good christian things’ any of us can do, along with the bible verses to prove it, but what ultimately matters is whether you are actually doing what GOD wants you to do, not what you’ve decided for yourself to do, based on your own experience and wisdom or your interpretation of various bible verses or what scholars might have said.
If in doubt about ‘what to do’ at a particular point in your ‘job’, go and ask the Boss.
Looking at the church world around me, its somewhat reminiscent of the “Titanic” on steriods. The icebergs been hit, the ship is sinking, the passengers are all down below frantically baling to try and save the ship, but as well, there’s a fire on the bridge, and nearly all the commanding officers deserted long ago.
No good looking for a fire extinguisher either, satan’s probably filled them all with petrol a long time ago.
Unfortunately some who made it to a life-boat and are now out on the dark and stormy seas are busy looking for another ‘ship’ to join, rather than asking God “What direction do you want me to row in”?
So… jump now, or go down with it, seems the choice needed.
@Jesusfreak155 I do understand the points you make and where you are coming from. In fact, what you describe on your blog is the correct approach and it is the one I do follow and practise myself.
But there are times when its unclear. Would I be ‘wrong’ for example if I warned a person about joining the Jehovah’s Witnesses, if he came along and he happened to ask me such a question ? (and of course its implied that I sat down with him and showed him the doctrinal differences and made it clear why I thought the way I did).
But to give an example you can probably relate to because its occuring in Nigeria, there was an article published in the Nigerian Sun News on June 14th, which gave details of extensive corruption within the Assemblies of God church in Nigeria.
You can read the article here: http://sunnewsonline.com/new/?p=67765
Now if you have read that article, would it be ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ for YOU to warn a person who told you they were considering joining this church and donate a substantial amount of their hard-earned money to it, that perhaps they were doing the wrong thing? (and of course I would refer them to the same article, and of course also any other articles I knew of that suggested such things weren’t happening at all – its important to give both sides of thing if they exist). But then I would leave it up to them to make their own decision.
Or do you think the right thing to do is expend your time and effort to visit said church and raise the issue with them, and in the meantime, the person who asked you has gone ahead and joined the church and is now perfectly happy there because of the ultra-professional and well-practised con-job that’s been done on him?
A similar issue would arise if some-one asked you about the “City of Truth Tabernacle’ which was subject to much scandal in 2013 as this newspaper article attests: http://www.osundefender.org/?p=135941
What would you say to a person in one of those congregations who put up a web-page giving details of how they had been diddled out of thousands of dollars? Are they just ‘gossiping’? Or do they have the interests of others at heart?
So, is not always a clear-cut thing.
.
@andronicus It is not my responsibility to warn or not to warn about where they put their money. In fact, it is no business of mine. If they come to me SPECIFICALLY asking for my opinion, I would not even raise the issue of the article. Somehow, I do not see God wringing His hands in heaven that a person sowed monetarily, and because of graft, the money went into the wrong hands. The person giving the money should not be the one afraid, the one stealing should. The morality of donating money is not derived from what the recipient does with the money, but with the heart of the giver while giving the money.
If I cannot take the effort to visit the place, I should keep my mouth shut.
@ Jesusfreak, what are you babbling about? Nothing you say makes much sense. Why are you on here? What is your point? Who are you trying to impress? Because nobody here seems impressed with you at all.
Johnjohn – your comments are starting to cross a line that shouldn’t be crossed.
@jesusfreak – the sermons and videos of many false teachers are available on the interent for whoever wants to hear, or view them. So too are their books and other material That usually provides enough information to make an informed decision. In today’s electronic age you do not neccessarily need to physically visit a location to gain needed information.
@everyone else – we do need to be gracious at times, make allowances for the fact ALL pastors are human, and not jump on them just because they accidentally left a word out when quoting a verse in their sermon notes.
Or even forgot to bring their notes altogether because they were up all night till 4:00 am Sunday morning ministering to some poor soul on his death-bed and his family, and stumbled through their sermon half-awake.
There is a time to speak, and a time to be silent. It takes true wisdom to know the difference. And even if you do speak, how you say it, where you say it, and when you say it need to be taken into account as well.
@andronicus,@thinker, I appreciate your comments, and will try @andronicus’s suggestion of reading their books.
@johnjohn: *smh*
@ausitin: ‘and yet you are quite happy to ‘visit this place’ with your mouth wide open, but without knowing any of the people who post, or what their motives are, in doing so?’ Perhaps I am wrong, but as a body that exists solely online, I should be able to reach a reasonable conclusion based on what I read here and the comments. Sorry If I come off as judgemental. Perhaps you have been hurt before, a loved one of yours has been hurt by traitors to our life, the life of Christ. That gives you a unique perspective I do not have, and may be responsible for your point of view. But I will try and understand, especially given the extent of exposure to the net that you guys have in that part of the world…
@everyone: please get my point. Once you say a thing, or type it, you are responsible for it. If that is so, we should be more guarded in the way we refer to others, especially those who are public figures in the church. Can you imagine the image I would have had of the Hillsong church and its attendees if I was hearing about them for the first time? If you google ‘who is Tozer?’ You will see a link that presents him as a heretic and charlatan, much as is being done here. Same with Zac Poonen. That should make us think. It certainly did for me.
Here is the tozer link: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Great%2520Men%2520of%2520God/pastor_tozer.htm&sa=U&ei=GpS2U5fPHtLJ0AXL1oHAAw&ved=0CCUQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNEJPPwj3ntUe_2f42kZT_YDser6vA
Also, try following the links on the tozer false prophet page. Links to Ray comfort, for example…
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
“You will see a link that presents him as a heretic and charlatan, much as is being done here. Same with Zac Poonen. That should make us think. It certainly did for me.”
That’s where discernment & research come in. And yes it is evident those are 2 things YOU NEED to work on.
Thanks Thinker. IFB is that the Independent Fundamental Baptist crew? Sorry, I don’t get out much! I can see that there are a few around me, any you would recommend in particular?
mmmm Anita, so aggressive. Sorry, I could definitely work on some of the fruit of the spirit, love, joy peace, PATIENCE…
Sydney, I live in Sydney.
Yup, that’s them. I can’t help you with recommendations for Sydney church because I don’t know Sydney at all. The standards of Sydney church websites should be high.
Probably the best rule-of-thumb question I can suggest for you when visiting any new church (no matter what denomination) to ask yourself is “is God *Himself* the focus of their worship/sermons* – yes or no?” If yes, then it’s a lot more unlikely to be a church that is guilty of scratching itching ears, leaving out what offends unrepentant sinners etc.
Of course I am biased towards Baptists overall, but some critics have pointed out that certain USA Baptist churches are excessively Seeker-Sensitive. Several even have leaders who are as keen on visions as some Charismatic preachers. (I thought Vision-casting Baptist would be an oxymoron!!!!) I don’t ever remember seeing those faults in the several Baptist churches I have visited though. http://www.gotquestions.org/seeker-sensitive-church.html
Even though my Adelaide church was a large one the pastors were very approachable when I needed some help. When you’re ready you could try emailing or arranging a chat to get a better idea of their values, their attitude to scripture etc.
* NOT your personal experiences, signs and wonders, speaking in tongues, promising personal fulfilment/ life purpose/ good job/ happy marriage “if you follow these life principles”, demands (not requests) for tithes/ donations
thanks again Thinker.
Question – what does everyone think about the Days of creation, do we believe that they were indeed 1. days or 2. time periods? Some friends and I had a loooong conversation about it last week and didn’t really ‘land’ my thinking on either perspective. I feel like it is an important issue that leads to – do we take the Bible as a literal document(sorry to use document when referring the the Bible, i definitely believe that it is the inspired and infallible Word of God that is useful for correction…)
Thanks,
Aaron
Aaron – there’s an old saying in church circles – “Holy Bible – wholly true”.
I personally have no problems believing in a six day creation – if God be “GOD” then why couldn’t he create the universe in six literal days. Evolutionary theories, which arose in the late 19th century under charles Darwin and others have attempted to destabilise the church’s long held beliefs on this matter..
These ‘theories’ were satanically inspired through the humanists and occultists of that era, in order to put the breaks on the great revivals (the real ones, not fake ones or the rise of the cults at that time) that were sweeping through Europe, North America and the rest of the planet through world missions.
if you just sit down and read the Bible in Genesis, you will have no doubts in your heart as to the truth of this matter. If, however, you allow yourself to be influenced by “theistic evolutionists” then you may come to the erroneous that:
“God created a mess, and it somehow or other ‘evolved’ into what we have today!”
Don’t laugh Aaron, there’s plenty of professing ‘christians’ out there, who believe this unbiblical tripe – and worse than that – but they’ve not believed the old maxim – Holy Bible wholly true from Genesis to maps…
Google “Answers in Genesis” as a starting point for proof concerning a literal six day creation… and there are other similar ministries out there who can provide some answers to your questions…
Let me add my own 2 kobo worth.
I think that God, being infinite, cannot exist inside of time. He made time, and must therefore be bigger than it. Following this reasoning, he can twist time as much as he wants.
Whether it was actual 24hr days… i do not know. BUT, the bible says 6 days, and the creator of time says 6 days, so that i what I believe.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/06/21/hillsong-continuing-to-disgrace-the-name-and-church-of-jesus/#comment-5617
@jesusfreak – I’m not suggesting that you were boasting about anything – I’m just saying that when you come onto a blog like this, you take the risk that some may misunderstand your meaning and/or your motives…
I’m not judging you, just commenting on what may happen…
@andronicus, I believe you have hit the nail on the head – many of these so called ‘ministries’ are charlatans – whatever vestiges of Christianity they may have once had, exist in name only – they pay lip service to God and deceive millions of people worldwide into the bargain. they are the false prophets of Matthew 7:13 and their time is short…
Hillsong et al now have a global ‘reach’ and this was not achieved by preaching a pure Gospel message, that convicts the sinner and warns the saint – it’s all about the money, the prestige, the influence and the accolades of the huge crowds that attend their meetings, rallies, conferences, and of course line their pockets with hard earned cash, from their deceived followings – worldwide…
Oops, I accidently posted my reply to this as one to JesusFreak by mistake. Have re-posted it below
Yes, but to be completely fair, these days many who attend such churches are in fact paying the biblical penalty for their own desire to have their ears tickled with pleasant things. However, there is what I call a ‘cross-over’ point for both the deceived and the deceivers, that point where they ‘knowingly’ make a choice to stay with the lie, rather than face up to uncomfortable truths.
So, if you do not have a love for the truth, then (eventually) it is God Himself who sends a spirit of deception, but of course it is STILL up to the individual even then to ‘make a choice’ to accept it. But once THAT ‘final choice’ is made….. the ‘cross-over’ point is reached and passed.
Some of those who post on this site have made that choice, others are moving towards it, but are still caught in the thought that they ‘must’ attend some ‘structure’ called ‘church’ in order to qualify as a christian. Which means they’ve merely just swapped one ‘man-designed’ structure for another one
In the meantime of course, the real world and the unsaved in it are moving towards an ultimate terrible fate, from which they will not be spared. Partly because there is far more time spent by ‘christians’ in navel-gazing about ‘where is a good church that “I” can go to’ rather than asking God what it is they should be doing with their time.
There are no end of ‘good christian things’ any of us can do, along with the bible verses to prove it, but what ultimately matters is whether you are actually doing what GOD wants you to do, not what you’ve decided for yourself to do, based on your own experience and wisdom or your interpretation of various bible verses or what scholars might have said.
If in doubt about ‘what to do’ at a particular point in your ‘job’, go and ask the Boss.
Looking at the church world around me, its somewhat reminiscent of the “Titanic” on steriods. The icebergs been hit, the ship is sinking, the passengers are all down below frantically baling to try and save the ship, but as well, there’s a fire on the bridge, and nearly all the commanding officers deserted long ago.
No good looking for a fire extinguisher either, satan’s probably filled them all with petrol a long time ago.
Unfortunately some who made it to a life-boat and are now out on the dark and stormy seas are busy looking for another ‘ship’ to join, rather than asking God “What direction do you want me to row in”?
So… jump now, or go down with it, seems the choice needed.:
So has anyone else heard about the Hillsong Movie? I’m serious… an actual movie about Hillsong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZvAejhfZA
I think they need to give themselves an uppercut. lol
I loved that quote that says “Their changing the world, but the world’s not changing them” bahahahaahaha… Hilarious
With the way Hillsong has constructed its history, they need to be very careful how they report their history. So far they have been very misleading with the facts to the general public. Former members of Hillsong should challenge and Brian and Bobbie Houston on their honesty.
This will be their second movie.
Hi folks, I’ve just commented over on the other thread – “why didn’t they just simply call it “The Life of Brian”… 🙂
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/06/21/hillsong-continuing-to-disgrace-the-name-and-church-of-jesus/#comment-5683
@jesusfreak
“If I cannot take the effort to visit the place, I should keep my mouth shut.”
and yet you are quite happy to ‘visit this place’ with your mouth wide open, but without knowing any of the people who post, or what their motives are, in doing so?
Perhaps it is us who are being judged by you, and not the other way round?
Tell me, what becomes of the scripture “…am I my brother’s keeper’? (Gen 4:9)
Then there’s the scripture referring to the ‘watchman on the wall’ – if he doesn’t sound a warning, then evil will fall upon the very city he was supposed to be protecting. While the victims suffer and/or die, possibly due to their own sin, their blood will be required at the hands of the man who let them down and failed to sound the warning – is that you?
“But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.”
(Ezekiel 33:6)
I’m not meaning to condemn you @jesusfreak, but these are Bible principles and they cannot be ignored – you can’t just write them off as ‘Old Testament’ – doesn’t matter any more – it does, and that’s why this blog site exists, so that the ‘watchmen’ who are on duty via their warnings of various scams, scandals and questionable beliefs have a voice – and that voice is based on scripture and what is evidenced by the extremely bad behaviour of these false prophets and their obviously man made movements.
To even call such places a ‘church’ is borderline contempt for what the true church really is – the very Bride of Christ, a body of ‘called out ones’ who will rule and reign with Christ throughout eternity – it is not a money raking ‘business’ venture that sells books, tapes and videos, runs conferences and uses every means available to fleece the sheep – such things are done by false shepherds and hirelings, and that tells me all I need to know about the likes of the Houstons and the Pringles.
That is what you are defending with your silence…
Jesusfreak, I am quite concerned about what appears to be a lack of understanding of what Christians are supposed to do for each other on your part.
“@andronicus It is not my responsibility to warn or not to warn about where they put their money.”
Proverbs 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
Lies by omission (leaving out vital information so a listener would make a different decision with whole truth) are just as deceptive as blatant contradictions of truth (e.g. Genesis Chapter 3, especially verses 4-5). Would God approve of you breaking the commandment “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16) by refusing warn him of a dangerous church/ church leader?
“In fact, it is no business of mine.”
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
That commandment clearly contradicts what you say there.
“Somehow, I do not see God wringing His hands in heaven that a person sowed monetarily, and because of graft, the money went into the wrong hands.”
There was no suggestion that God would do such a thing. God would never be anxious or fearful about people do. However God does experience anger and wrath towards unrepentant sinners. You should do a keyword search for those subjects on that biblegateway website. Perhaps you might realise that sin is not such a minor matter in God’s eyes.
“The person giving the money should not be the one afraid, the one stealing should.”
What’s that got to do with it? It would be deceitful of you – and God would hold you accountable for that deception – to fail to warn your brother/sister in Christ to prevent them being stolen from.
“The morality of donating money is not derived from what the recipient does with the money, but with the heart of the giver while giving the money.”
Not always true unfortunately. The televangelists are successful by appealing to people’s greed. “Sow a seed (give me money) and you’ll reap a harvest (get a lot more money in return, no guarantees of how much or when, just believe enough and you’ll get it…. supposedly…..).”
” If I cannot take the effort to visit the place, I should keep my mouth shut.”
In the Age of the Internet that is not a good enough excuse. If you know of information which you received from RELIABLE sources (not gossip) then even the non-believing world easily sees your attitude as negligent and yet another excuse to reject Christianity “all those naive Christians can’t see a charlatan and con artist for what he is… I refuse to be one of those stupid people…”
thinker – I have done a little research on IFB and some things concern me. I used the internet to check out what IFB believe and then also what others who have been involved, say. The things that concern me most…
1. It looks like IFB ONLY accept the New Testament as the authority for the believer? And the Old Testament is viewed as a historical document?
2. Homosexuality – it seems like a sin that is set apart and like no other? I would view gossip, slander, lying, murder and so on, as on the same par, disobedience/sin. The only sin I see as differentiated in the Bible is grieving the Holy Spirit and I don’t think that I have ever heard a convincing argument as to what exactly that is? Can you explain both of these?
3. Clothing – I understand modesty, but it looks like the IFB clothing standards simply stay 20-30years behind what is ‘acceptable’ in the current culture?
Thanks for anything to can clarify here..,
Are they generally USA websites? It seems from the several Americans who attended the church (gone back since work project completed) that their churches a lot more conservative in attitude.
1. My pastor loves the *whole* bible, KJV version
2. Homosexuality never singled out as the worst sin, or any other individual sin. He hasn’t ever preached fire and brimstone. He is a very matter-of-fact country boy. Quite self-deprecating in fact.
3. Yes clothing is modest but actually less formal than other cities’ Baptist Union churches. Don’t even have Target shop here (Target Country) 30kms away.
4. They don’t have anything to do with Baptist church in closest town because they have female pastor. After having heard quite a few sermon reviews I can understand them taking that position.
I am not so black-and-white in thinking and I prefer more formal sermons. I wish he didn’t put down intellectuals who like doctrine as well (we’re not that bad, the ones who want to know “why?” – that makes me cringe) but he communicates extremely well for his hard-working tradies and families.
As I cannot drive I only have the options of Anglican, Catholic, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Uniting Church, Assembly of God and the IFB in my area. The IFB congregation loves the Lord, loves the bible and loves each other, warts and all. That is what really matters.
Have you considered looking at a Baptist Union church if IFB church sounds too much for you?
To clarify one thing: “not so black and white in thinking” not meant in a negative sense. Their high personal standards of holiness and good conduct show they see things God’s way, not the world’s way of “it’s all relative…” The latter option is still a weakness of mine.
Hearing the truth and seeing faith lived out is like having a bucket of cold water thrown in your face – a experience I never “had” while attending the Hillsong-friendly AOG church.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/06/21/hillsong-continuing-to-disgrace-the-name-and-church-of-jesus/#comment-5740
@jesusfreak – the list of things related to Hillsong and their “image” is as follows:
Debacle over Mercy Ministries
Former links with Gloria Jeans coffee empire – the owner is Hillsong’s CEO
Questions over misuse of government funding in NSW
Cultish practices in relation to its membership – false ‘tithing’ doctrine
Fostering an Eccumenical spirit with other backslidden denominations
Linking in with C3 and other man made organizations, to boost the numbers…
and that’s just for starters.
It’s not about whether I or other people I know have been hurt – it’s about trying to warn others with a serious kind of warning so they won’t get hurt in the first place. Not everyone will listen, and even those who do, may wander off at some later date into a different kind of deception.
Christ and the apostles warned us repeatedly to beware of these very kind of people – they are not ‘prominent people within the church’ at all – they are deceivers and manipulators, who are publicly and openly shaking hand with the Pope and through him, the leaders of many other false world religions.
Do you really want to defend that stance?
I can only sum this comment up with the following scripture:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple” (Romans 16:17, 18)
‘They serve their own belly’ – they serve their own desires for power, for money and for influence,and that is why they pose such a danger to the body of Christ.
That is why we warn against them – they have a clear track record in these matters, and it must be exposed…
@Austin: I appreciate your taking out time to explain your stance to me… I’ll think on it and ask my mentors before I come to a stand on this matter, baring any new angle… But, please try and understand and appreciate my angle as well. Think of it as 2 sides of the same coin, or 2 wings of the same bird.
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
Also, please can someone explain the whole blackened interior thingy? That was what originally got me interested in this blog. I was looking for references for stage set up and lighting, and whether it is ok to use blackened interiors in church. And get this: I didn’t know that hillsong did that till I saw the post, and of course, you can imagine my train of thought when my intended suggestion for making things easier on power and sound department suddenly became a demonic thing. Can someone please explain the blackened interior bad perspective to me?
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
Austin, I need to be blunt. You are doing the very thing that convinces ‘intelligent unsaved people’ who are seeking God that ‘christians’ make judgemental statements and DON”T given ANY factual references whatsoever in support of them, (or even which if any of the stated things applied to you personally either)
I have no doubt that you probably have those, but I also know that there are many so-called christians who simply regurgitate ‘supposed facts’ found elsewhere on the internet only to find much to their embarrassment that they’ve been ‘made a patsy’. of in some way. I am not implying you are one of those, lets be clear on that.
But, as result of your post, JesusFreak now says HE is going off to ask ‘his mentor’ for ‘yet another opinion’. He needs to learn as early as possible in his christian life that in regard to matters of this kind, if there is a real world fact that is relevant that can be checked, it should be checked as much as possible BEFORE reaching a conclusion and acting on it HIMSELF.
And, you comment “Do you really want to defend that stance” seems out of order to me, seeing JesusFreak had just said he was going away to check things for himself. At the moment, if he goes and see’s his mentor, without doing that, for all he knows his mentor may think HillSong is the bee’s knees’ and reassure him everything is OK. But if he has got ‘facts’ and material he has seen and researched himself, he would be in a position to give his mentor some insights he may need.
OR, he might need to learn too that a ‘mentor’ is not someone to rely on instead of God either.
@andronicus: I understand your point. Thanks for reminding me that the opinion of others is secondary to my own research and logically deduced position, and should be factored in AFTER my own homework and the leading of the Holy Spirit. However, I feel the topic isn’t hillsong ‘bad’ or not. One of my mentors agrees that they’re not as clean as they could be. My issue is the line between sharing ‘discernment’/ negative opinions, and gossip/evil speaking, and how to find that line, and keep on the right side of it
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
@andronicus – if you have a look around the relevant posts here in the last 12 months, there are links to references (some of them supplied by me at times) and many by others, including the writers of each article. there is more than enough ‘evidence’ if you want to find it – without leaving the C3 or Hillsong blogs…
As for your comments on ‘what i’m doing wrong’ – they are simply your opinion…
I will not stop warning people, in no uncertain terms, about false prophets within the church, just because you may have qualms about how I’m doing it…
It sounds to me like you and others are seeking to control the content of people’s comments… just because you have a blog site doesn’t make you right about anything in particular…
@jesusfreak – do you feel that the apostle Paul’s admonition to ‘mark them and avoid them’ would be categorised as ‘gossip/evil speaking’ when he clearly gave those instructions to the church in Rome for their own protection?
Have your ‘mentors’ ever warned YOU about false prophets in your own neighbourhood – or did they just sit back and watch you become deceived and/or fleeced of your hard earned cash too???
Austin, i’m going to have to back you up on this. i just read the 1st part of your testimony you pointed me to, and you are thorough. in fact, i see why that sherryn lady was proud to put it on her website. Austin you should be commended for all the studying you have done on the Bible and on Movements/.
and i dont know what Andronicus means by you need to supply more facts. i mean, come on, there are like 50 articles on this webstie and 50 on the C3 website, of which only the Gordy/Phil/Dean Club have disputed a very few facts, especially for like 100 articles. Churchwatcher has a pretty solid batting average by the numbers. and Churchwatcher has supplied plenty of info, for whoever wants to read it. i still am going back thru old articles (as i have time)
i also am not sure what Andronicus meant by telling you it’s too easy to just regurgitate? i have yet to find 1 reputable discernment website that has any habit of regurgitating much, nor you Austin. sounds like Andronicus momentarily fell under the mystique of Gordy on that one, because that regurgitate comment is a leaveover from Gordy’s recent visits.
nfg
Even well meaning and sincere christians can without realising it become an example of ‘the ill-informed informing the uninformed’, to not only their own detriment but to that of others.
Sorry if I’ve come on a bit too strong, but I felt it needed to be said. We are in a public domain, which is not really a problem. And lets face it, if you had given references such as newspaper articles, or to material elsewhere, then those could end up helping many others in ways you will never know.
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For JesusFreak… whereever possible stick to proven real world facts, If the doctrines and religious shenigans are ‘wrong’, – as distinct from being nothing debate or discussion over ‘doctrinal viewpoints’, religious matters’ then – there WILL be ‘real world evidence of some kind out there somewhere. God can even lead you straight to it
Oops, my last post was confusingly worded. What I meant to say was that – if the teachings are ‘wrong’ (as distinct from being nothing but legitimate or semi-legitimate doctrinal differences), then that ‘wrongness’ will in its turn lead to ‘wrong acts’ in the real world, the effects of which will at some point become known.
Austin – my comments were intended to be helpful. I’m pointing out that IF you perchance found yourself in the situation where YOU (not anybody else) were being harassed legally by a hostile opponent with deep financial pockets, with highly qualified solicitors and barristers, you will find I suspect that anything other than your own words would very likely be inadmissable as evidence, on the simple basis that OTHER people said those words, not YOU, and there is no reference to where they said it in the body of your comment at all. Hence their comments may very well have no relevance at all so far as the specific matter before the court is concerned. Whether those comments by them and their basis for making them were sound doesn’t come into it at all. Only your words would be the basis..
Now, thats the worst case scenario, and I’m not a lawyer, but I hope you will see the point I’m making which is: its unwise to start any battle until you are quite convinced beforehand that your own defences are fully prepared in advance for any counter-attack that might be launched in response.
But that’s only my ‘opinion’ of course, Feel free to ignore it as being of any value, and feel equally free to see me as ‘critical’ and hence ‘unsupportive’ if you choose.
Or choose to see it as some suggestions about how to make your efforts to prevent others joining Hillsong more effective, while at the same time protecting yourself against some unexpected response by them which might stop those efforts continuing.
@andronicus – even modern jails have access to the internet – in a worst case scenario, I would not have to stop exposing the false prophets at all…
I say again – it sounds to me like you are trying to control the content of people’s comments…
“Others” will join Hillsong whether I say anything or not, but once they’ve been there for a while there is a better chance of them leaving after having seen the “other side of the coin” which is often presented here and on similar blogs…
There hundreds of blog sites world wide that are exposing the same or similar errors, scams and rorts and all of the are done in the name of God.
Perhaps your time would be better spent elsewhere, sharing what you feel with those who will listen to you?
The bible says we are to be aware of false prophets, just as Mohammad said of himself, that he was eloquent of speech and he sure was he got millions to follow him.
It is our job as Christians to be aware of false teaching and now that satan knows his time is short he is working over time. If someone came as an ugly disgusting person no one would listen so it has to be a smooth, sound good, for itching ears and deceiving eyes.. Food gracious, look at the thousands who followed Rodney Howard brown and the likes, or Johns town leader and many others, and just because they are eloquent of words does not man that they are of God, satan even tired tempting Jesus.
jesusfreak, perhaps this pastor’s article will help you understand regular contributors’ perspective better. Prevention is better than cure but once a disease starts it has to be treated to heal it or stop it from progressing further. If all Christian leaders taught and behaved according to God’s Word then discernment websites wouldn’t exist and articles like this one wouldn’t be written. http://graceandgranite.com/it-wasnt-my-fault/
Christians who are willing to look the other way or distance themselves instead of dealing with these negative-sounding, unpleasant issues are making things much worse. The truth hurts sometimes but truth- not lies -brings healing.
The guts of what I said is was summed up in (to quote from my earlier above): ” its unwise to start any battle until you are quite convinced beforehand, that your own defences are fully prepared, in advance, for any counter-attack that might be launched in response.”
For those that like bible verses for everything:
Proverbs 24: 5 – 6 : “Wisdom prevails over strength, knowledge over brute force; for wars are won by skillful strategy, and victory is the fruit of long planning.” (NEB)
You are right, my time is better spent elsewhere.
May the Lord Jesus guide and bless you in your future endeavours.
Given Gordy’s concerns, no doubt he will be pleased to know that I (also known as “that Sherryn lady”) attend a God-fearing, gospel-preaching, “Scripture-driven” church. I run The Narrowing Path as a resource for other believers, and mostly it is made up of articles, sermons and other bits and pieces from other pastors and mature Christians. The blog and its content is provided to the public with the blessing of all three of my pastors, several of the mature, discerning Christians in the church I attend, and some pastors and brethren overseas. My Dad also provides me with guidance, wisdom and the occasional admonishment (he is a retired missionary, bible college lecturer and pastor). I am no lone ranger or bitter ex-anything. 🙂
Having said that, I will endeavour avoid the potentially terminal condition Andronicus aptly describes as the “ill-informed informing the un-informed”. This is helped in part by healthy, robust dialogue on such blogs as this where believers can share information, encourage, exhort and even rebuke one another in Christ-like love, so we can, through the work of the Holy Spirit, all grow together in our faith and knowledge of the Word of God.
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Sherryn
@jesusfreak – I’m not here to insult people, or to ‘browbeat’ anyone – if you feel that’s what happened, then I apologize – but I will not apologize for my motives and stance. I rely on the collective wisdom of the board as measured by our only rule of faith and conduct – the scriptures.
Here’s a link to my testimony – read it and then decide if I’m “browbeating” people, or simply trying to warn them to avoid some of the pitfalls I fell into as a young believer:
http://thenarrowingpath.com/2013/11/23/personal-testimony-beware-of-false-prophets-part-one/
@ Jesusfreak155, as to your comment “gordy – please, do not rise to any other comments questioning your motives, If no one answers your questions,
—–>THEY PROBABLY DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWERS.”
That was ANOTHER foolish assumption on your part. As Austin has told you, you came on here with wide open mouth as soon as you arrived, and have been putting your foot in it ever since.
Even a casual observer could tell you (like YOU if you had paid attention), that Gordy’s point-by-point response to TF was MEGA-LAME, just like Gordy’s MEGA-church is MEGA-LAME.
For example, Gordy’s explanation and defense of BH calling the pope a “Christian leader”, was this…
“Pope a leader: Well he is, since he was voted to lead a few million Catholics, but whether he is ‘good’ is yet to be seen.”
So Gordy’s statement (made in Gordy’s usual rebellious attitude) was BEYOND rediculous. So I would not blame TF at all for not even bothering to respond to Gordy.
TF was articulate and correct in everything he said.
Gordy in his response gave us his usual fluff.
By the way, Gordy’s still yapping AFTER he told us he’s had enough of this place and he’s outta here. Yeah, right. Sure thing Boss.
@gaye45 – does your church use Hillsong music and nothing else? We attend an Anglican church and the music is a variety – contemporary hymns (Keith and Kristyn Getty), traditional older hymns, no Hillsong at all.
It seems that Hillsong music has become its own idol factory.
I’ve mentioned it before but the former Hillsong leader and musician Geoff Bullock realized his music was a form of self-praise. He literally changed the words of his music to reflect the sovereignty of God,
“Bullock wonders whether we are in danger of building our Christianity around our own faith rather than God’s faithfulness. He asks the question of whether Christianity becomes centered on what we do for God rather than what He has done for us? In an article for an Australian journal entitled “Beyond Self-centered Worship,” Bullock writes; “We’ve made worship self-centered instead of God-centered ….It’s as if we’re worshiping worship instead of God.”
http://www.geoffbullock.com/POYL.html
“Many of the songs you wrote, you now sing with revised lyrics. Why?
Well, I suppose it’s because I remember who I was when I wrote the song. I remember my approach to God and I remember what was a real disfunctionality. Yes, it was the result of an undiagnosed illness, but it was also an error of theology. An error of grace or rather an error of works in grace.
When Paul says in Galatians, “You foolish Galatians.” ‘You silly things. It had to be done by the Spirit; what are you doing completing it by works?’
Well, that was me. I sort of felt like it was a one-time grace or two-time grace. You went back to God asking for forgiveness, you hung your head in shame, but then you tried to prove yourself worthy of it all. I was constantly striving and therefore constantly burning out.
I was so fierce on myself. I would just push myself and push myself and I would never receive any comfort because I would always be measuring myself and coming up short. I didn’t count myself worthy of comfort. I could never be than man of god that significant others were telling me I should be.
In the middle of this sad and broken time I became aware, ever so gently, that grace was embracing me. I started to realise that I hadn’t fallen from grace, I had fallen into it. I was no less righteous; I had simply lost my sense of self righteousness. Yes, there were consequences but I became increasingly aware that Jesus had come to give me hope and to help me to be accountable to all these consequences.
So, grace became my only anchor, sort of like lifeboat drill. When you’re a sailor and you do lifeboat drill it is usually in an Olympic swimming pool, but when you are in the middle of Bass Strait, you suddenly discover how effective this lifeboat is.
And so the phrase, “Lord, I come to you,” I was saying that in frustration. “Oh Lord I’m sorry. I should be there with you but I’m not. Here I come again. I come to you again.” And then the prayer, “Lord, hold me close” is like saying “Please hold me close because I don’t think you are holding me close at the moment. I think perhaps you turned away again because you are as frustrated with me as I am.”
The wonderful truth is that the “Lord you come to me to let my heart be changed, renewed flowing from the grace that I found in you” that the “weaknesses that I see in me are being stripped away by the power of your love.” Isn’t that so wonderful? Sometimes I wonder if we simply don’t understand what God has already done for us in Jesus.
So I changed that song to a confession of what God has done. It’s not “hold me close” but “you hold me close”. No matter how dry and disappointed I am, to be able to say to myself, “It’s okay, he’s holding you. You’re depressed, life is tough, but nothing’s changed between you and God. You’re not a disappointment.” And perhaps that also relates back to my experience with my father.”
http://www.christianfaith.com/resources/geoff-bullock-opens-up
Thanks again churchwatcher, yes unfortunately they sing a lot of hill song and right from the beginning we were very aware that it was self and of course people have said that it is praise etc.. and I was also aware that Jeff has come around perhaps because his marriage broke up and he became more real.
churchwatcher, I could not go to any church while they say it is ok to have homosexual or women pastors. We came from NZ and the Anglican Church of New Zealand has decided to allow non-celibate homosexuals to become clergy, even though the bible is very clear that homosexuality is an abomination to God and that a deacon etc has to be a husband of one wife, apt to teach and preach, children all in order etc, so that leaves out women and homosexuals straight off.. I do not know what the Anglican here in Brisbane or Australia say though.
I have come to realise that everything in the bible that God says for us to not do is always for our mental and physical health and those of our children, science is proving that more and more.
I love the hymns when they are sung at a fast rate and not slowly like a funeral march, that is one of the things that fused to turn me of Christianity before we became Christians, hymns that sounded like a funeral instead of joy.
Gaye
and thanks for all this church watcher, I have just sent it onto my daughter, she is also very aware of such things..
@ gaye45 – I think you’re alluding to my comments? I’m ex-C3 now attending an Anglican church in the Sydney diocese. Totally agree about the role of women in the church (I’m complimentarian) and this is the case in most of our Sydney congregations. You will be pleased to hear that the Anglican communities that uphold the biblical gender roles and faithfully preach the gospel are steadily growing and the “liberal” gay-affirming, women as ministers (ruling over men) are stagnant or failing.
Thanks, but excuse my ignorance but what is C3???
How glad I am that some common sense is coming out of all this, we keep getting told that the bible was written in a different time and women were not seen as they are now, but my God made this world and all that is in it, so I think that my God would have seen what this age would be like and he did say that he is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.
I have hated this women submission without thinking like a servant type belief, and I also hate women preaching over men. We women have a beautiful place in God and in our men’s lives, we are help mates, we are here to encourage, to be there for them as they are for us, and many other things which at this time of night I cant think of, and to nurture our children, (and not send them out to day cares where others nurture them during the best hrs of the day).
Sorry to digress but I now believe in home schooling our children big time, and not leaving them for the system to take control of them during the best time of the day, and my beliefs have not just come from the fact that my husband is a deputy principal of a private home schooling system but because over the years we saw the subtle damage that schooling did to our kids and now days private Christian schools are not much better. God says to bring up a child in the way he will go and when he is old he will not depart from it, so what do we do, we send them to school for someone else to bring them up in the way that they will go.. Wow I have gone off the subject eh..
Gaye