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Brian Houston, Chris Rosebrough, dictionary, evil, hall, houston, jordan hall, modalism, Pharisees, Rosebrough
“It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt, yes or no, Brian Houston?”
It is not uncommon to hear Brian Houston, his leadership, and Hillsong’s adoring fans telling people, “judge not lest you be judged”, and “if you are without sin, cast the first stone”. And Hillsong would say that their movement never “demonizes” Christians for questioning the powers that be. At least up until now….
Brian Houston recently tweeted the following,
Leaders goal: Toughen up and lead when the heat is on; yet stay authentic and transparent. Better days are coming!
Source: Brian Houston, @BrianCHouston, Twitter, https://twitter.com/BrianCHouston/status/500981890208129024, Published 5:26 AM – 17 Aug 2014. (Accessed 10/09/2014.)
Live your life in a transparent & authentic way. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear & nothing to lose!
Source: Brian Houston, @BrianCHouston, Twitter,https://twitter.com/BrianCHouston/status/497431278049062912, Published 10:17 AM, 07/08/2014. (Accessed 10/08/2014.)
Leadership doesn’t bully. – doesn’t manipulate – doesn’t ‘control’ – & doesn’t crush or diminish others! Leadership leads!
Source: Brian Houston, @BrianCHouston, Twitter, https://twitter.com/BrianCHouston/status/512647263483887616, 18/09/2014 10:00AM. (Accessed 20/09/2014.)
Let’s see how Brian Houston went.
UNFATHOMABLE IGNORANCE
It’s astounding to think that someone like Brian Houston can sit on an annual salary of $300,000 a year and operate out of such willful ignorance.
Brian Houston Responds To The Steve West Media Saga
Not only that, our most recent articles looked at how far removed Hillsong is from the orthodox Christian faith. The first article below is a report on how Hillsong wrote the song ‘This I believe’. The second article is a testimony of someone’s experience at Hillsong explaning how they discovered their rich historical Christian faith once they left the Hillsong bubble.
Mega-fail: Mega-church hiding under mega-rock
“I was a Christless, creedless, and clueless Christian in Hillsong”: A testimony of God’s grace.
With all this in mind, we can begin to understand where Brian Houston is speaking from.
THE ‘DEMONIZING’ INTENSIFIES:
Below, Brian Houston tweeted lyrics from his church’s latest song, “This I Believe”.
A commenter, Matt Rollings responded to Brian Houston’s tweet.
@BrianCHouston Words matter. You do know modalists affirm the same, right? @piratechristian
Source: Matt Rollings, @Matt_Rollings, Twitter, https://twitter.com/matt_rollings/status/512196877391917056, 4:10 AM – 17 Sep 2014. (Accessed 20/09/2014.)
Matt Rollings summed up our thoughts exactly on the issue of this song. Furthermore, Rollings bought Pastor Christ Rosebrough from Kongsvinger Lutheran Church into the discussion, also an apologist for his radio show Fighting for the Faith.
So what was Houston’s response to Matt Rollings?
Rollings obviously replied to Brian Houston. And Brian Houston responded with this:
If you aren’t laughing now at least you should be raising your eyebrows with this comment. Brian, yes, you can find the word ‘modalism’ in both the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary. And you most definitely find the definition of modalism in Christian encyclopedias or systematic theology books.
Obviously ‘the great white shark’ Houston felt out of his league and started chomping and thrashing around on Twitter.
It is important to notice the words he used around “pharisaical”. Pride? Well, obviously. But intellectual? Being intellectual makes you a Pharisee? Weren’t the Pharisees false teachers who loved to parade a form of godliness (in a similar way before Brian Houston removed all his shocking comments from this Twitter conversation)?
By the way Brian, nothing is ever ‘deleted’ permanently from the internet i.e. your ‘deleted comments’, you do realize that? We found them as easily as we found ‘modalism’ in the dictionary. Just saying.
In response to @BrianCHouston, Matt Rollings introduces Prof. Nathan Busenitz (Instructor of Theology. B.A. M.Div. Th.M – The Masters Seminary) into the ring…
@BrianCHouston “religious people?” As a pastor are you not familiar with church history? http://thecripplegate.com/modalism_oneness_and_td_jakes/ … HT @nbusenitz
Source: Matt Rollings, @Matt_Rollings, Twitter, https://twitter.com/matt_rollings/status/512247653078286336, 7:32AM, 17/09/2014. (Accessed 20/09/2014.)
Ps Chris Rosebrough joined the ‘conversation’ to help explain to Brian Houston exactly what Modalism is, Matt having alerting Chris in the twitter stream as to what Houston had said earlier.
BECAUSE HILLSONG IS OPEN TO “CONVERSATION”…
It appears about this point in time, Brian Houston blocked Matt Rollings from commenting on his wall. In response, Matt put out these tweets:
@BrianCHouston Brian, you have blocked me. I can’t respond to you. Please please!!! pick up a theology text book.
Source: Matt Rollings, @Matt_Rollings, Twitter, https://twitter.com/matt_rollings/status/512267540177776640, 8:51AM, 17/09/2014. (Accessed 20/09/2014.)
But the conversation did not stop there. This, from the Pulpit and Pen blog site:
P&P Transcript: Brian Houston Asks if Modalism is a “Made Up Word”
The following is a transcript of a segment from Thursday’s Pulpit & Pen Program.
Brian Houston, pastor of the Hillsong United – whatever it is – “church,” had a conversation with one of my friends, Matt, from Canada “eh.” On Twitter, Brian said, “I believe in God the father, I believe in Christ the Son, I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe all three are one.” This is Hillsong’s attempt to say, “Hey! We have a theology! We’re not watered-down and all about worship music!” And so, he’s going to show his theological prowess by affirming the Holy Trinity, and the way he phrased it left open room for interpretation. Matt says to him, “Words matter. You do know that modalists affirm the same, right?” Like, “You know that modalists can actually agree with that, right?”
So what do you think Brian Houston said? Now, he has like 354,000 people following him on Twitter. Yes, three hundred and fifty-four thousand people following him on twitter. Probably, when you count churches and people and followers throughout the world, we’re talking about a huge number of people look to this man for spiritual guidance. I’m not talking about some podunk pastor from Goober Town Arkansas (yes, there is a Goober Town, Arkansas) or Possum Grape or Bald Knob or some place like that in the middle the country. We’re talking about a huge international so-called “church.” Here’s the main guru. What do you think was [Houston’s] response when Matt was like, “Could you be more specific? Modalists agree with this.”
This is his response… This is his response; “Are you one of those religious people who make up words?” He says, “Not even a dictionary has the word modalist in it.”
Listen, if you’re a layperson I understand you may be like, “You guys are snobs, just because he doesn’t know a word.” Listen, if you’re layperson, if you don’t understand… I’m glad you listen to the Pulpit & Pen Program because you need to know what this means. But if you’re a pastor and you don’t know what the word means, get educated. A leader of worldwide movement and you don’t know what modalism is? Why are you the leader of a worldwide movement bounding off towards anything, let alone heresy? How did Brian Houston become a pastor? When Brian Houston became a pastor, did he look a lot like the guy that should have preached that night and they accidentally put him behind the podium instead? Is there a body double? Is he a Manchurian candidate?
He doesn’t know what modalism is, so he actually looks it up and he says “there are no definitions available in the dictionary for modalism?” He said [to Matt], “I don’t even see the definition anywhere? Did you mean medalist or modelist?” And then, finally his response was to (of course) block him for being one of “those religious snobs who throw around big words” like “modalist” – three syllables, for crying out loud. It’s three syllables.
Is it too much to ask that we project leaders who are people that have read a theology textbook at some point in their life? Who might know what ‘modalism’ or other major heresies are? Because you can quote the creeds all day long, Nicene Creed or the Apostle’s Creed, to make yourself sound Orthodox, but you haven’t the ability to provide an apologetic against Oneness Pentecostal heretics like TD Jakes? You see, Satan hates the Trinity – he can’t stand it – and every cult under the sun attacks the Trinity (Mormonism Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc…) every single cult attacks Trinity. So you’re the leader of a movement? Was has come of us? That’s why you, sir -Brian Houston – are in the Daily Downgrade.
Source: P&P Transcript: Brian Houston Asks if Modalism is a “Made Up Word”, Pulpit and Pen, http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/09/18/pp-transcript-brian-houston-asks-if-modalism-is-a-made-up-word/. (Accessed 19/09/2014.)
Baptist Pastor Jordan Hall notified Brian Houston of winning the daily downgrade award. Brian seemed to receive the award well…
In the above screen grab you can read this cheeky response from Pulpit & Pen:
@BrianCHouston The P&P staff gives our apologies. What do you mean by “evil”? We can’t find it in the dictionary. Is that a word?
Source: Pulpit & Pen, PulpitAndPen, Twitter, https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/512685576579854336, 18/09/2014 12:32 PM. (Accessed 20/09/2014.)
Brian Houston chomped back with this comment:
Right. So Jesus refers to Christian ministers and elders as heretics in Romans and Galatians… Huh? What is Brian Houston thinking? Didn’t the Apostle Paul write Romans and Galatians under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
Pulpit & Pen later followed with this comment:
@BrianCHouston @drewchinski Are you sure you’re an expert on heresy to be accusing us of it? “Is Modalism a word?”
Source: Pulpit & Pen, PulpitAndPen, Twitter, https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/512708352275513344, 18/09/2014 2: 02PM. (Accessed 21/09/2014.)
Yet another twitter response to Brian Houston came from Baptist Elder Gene Clyatt:
If you’re ignorant of both theology & church history, “pastor” is not the job for you… @PulpitAndPen @BrianCHouston
Source: Gene Clyatt, @Shinar_Squirrel, Twitter, https://twitter.com/Shinar_Squirrel/status/512689297724407808, 12:47 PM – 18 Sep 2014. (Accessed 21/09/2014.)
Tony Miano from Cross Encounters also weighed in and rebuked Brian Houston,
. @BrianCHouston To which savior are you referring, Brian? Jesus of the Bible, or the false Jesus of TD Jakes?//REPENT!! (Acts 20:29-30)
Source: Tony Miano, @TonyMiano, Twitter, https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/512955263653908480, 6:23 AM – 19 Sep 2014. (Accessed 21/09/2014.)
Now Brian likes to think of himself as being transparent. Authentic. Rising above, when under fire. So what did you think Brian Houston did when he was ‘under fire’ by Christian pastors, brothers in Christ who rightly, and with polite restraint, corrected Brian Houston’s ignorance about modalism?
What does he do? He deletes his tweets. Calls other Christian pastors demonic.
Sounds like he has the “spirit of a pioneer”.
DOCTRINE IS IMPORTANT
So why the big kerfuffle over Brian Houston’s original statement about the Trinity? In light of Brian Houston’s ‘confusion’ about the god of Islam, former Muslim Abdul Saleeb really demonstrates why it is important for Christians to understand the Trinity in this Ligonier podcast:
We thought we would leave you something that Matt Rollings put together with his encounter with Brian Houston.
Hillsong Church Watch 
Wow… Just WOW.
Hello Chris – wow from me too – I’m not on Facebook, or Twitter, so I appreciate these little snippets that pop up occasionally from Churchwatcher’s Iphone – it really goes to show us just how deceptive and misleading that even a few misplaced words can be, doesn’t it? Never mind about those “non existent” words altogether…
Maybe that’s why Jesus Christ told us the He would judge us for “every idle word”?
“A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.(Matt 12:35 – 37)
This is in the context of the Pharisees and good fruit versus bad – what comes out of our mouths:
“Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (verses 33 – 34)
Surely an influential leader making a permanent Internet record of their comments on Twiitter, would have to be very careful as to what they’ve said in relation to doctrine and also whilst attempting to impinge the characters of others, whose life and beliefs they apparently know nothing about?
“What do you mean by “evil”? We can’t find it in the dictionary. Is that a word?” – Great article!
That’s a great photo of Brian; that fake smile is really him. Hey Brian, were you trying for the “Dodgy Used Car Salesman” look? You’ve really got it down pat, mate.
Anyway Brian, you must be really feeling the heat, are you? You seem to be ever so touchy recently; it’s got to be hard when you want to be in the limelight, but at the same time you’ve got so many things you need to hide. I guess you’re feeling ever so conflicted, and it’s got to be *so* embarrassing that you need to keep pulling videos of your “preaching” because they are all chock full of incriminating evidence. (I imagine it must be like re-visiting the trauma of having to “withdraw” that infamous book of yours, “You Need More Money” – are the nightmares starting to come back, perhaps?).
It looks like the game has changed, courtesy of the Internet: these days, you can’t have your false Gospel and preach it too. Such a shame, eh? What are you going to do for a job now, Brian?
P.S.
I know that a lot of people are shocked that Brian Houston had to look up the word “modalist”, and probably even more people are shocked that he was unable to find it.
Personally, I’m shocked that Brian actually owns a dictionary.
brian doesn’t need more money. he needs more dictionaries.
nfg
This explains a lot of the problem. Theologically as well as biblically illiterate. No wonder no ardent Hillsong followers can barely string two Christian words together.
I’d almost have some pity for how severely he’s being “pwned” but this numbskull is allegedly so many people’s “pastor” he deserves none. This impostor is deceived and being deceived alright (2 Timothy 3:13)!
Brian’s writing a new book called “You Need More Words” and Bobbie’s writing a complemantary one too, called “Kingdom Women Love Vocabulary”.
Unfortunately, it was discovered just after the final draft went to press, that certain words had been left off the page in both books, but never mind – there’s always Twitter as a viable backup…
Now that most of the decent folks in town have put their copies of those other two trashy books of theirs in the wheelie bin, B & B have to have something in print because they “still need more money”…
Just make sure that it’s not YOUR money! 🙂
So if you happen to correct Brian on his inability to preach even his own version of the Bible..you are evil and demonic? Wow.
Could someone also please alert Brian to the fact that Galatians is NOT spelt ‘Galations’ as he has in his post.
Maybe this is yet another example of the “it’s what i said, but not what i meant” clanger.
One gets the feeling that correcting the Grand Poohbah brian houston is NOT an option at hillsong.
“One gets the feeling that correcting the Grand Poohbah brian houston is NOT an option at hillsong.”
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated! Both of your neurons are belong to us!
“Live your life in a transparent & authentic way.”
Hey, Brian, you’re pretty transparent: everyone can see right through you.
You’re quite “authentic”, too: out of your own mouth, you’ve shown yourself to be a bona fide, A-grade, top drawer, first class, genuine idiot. Following your utterances is like watching a man struggling in quicksand: the more you say, the faster you sink.
Haven’t you learnt *anything* in all your years as a “pastor”, Brian? Perhaps you should consider exploring the possibility of a new genre: “Church as Comedy”.
Christians attacking Christians. We are all free to think and believe whatever we want to believe. However if we call ourselves Christians then why are we the first ones to call out and judge others when it isn’t our right place to do so in the first place. I don’t go to this church as I live across the world from them however the message coming from them is the same message that Jesus portrayed “love others” simple. They don’t stray away from the basic teaching, they lead others into accepting Jesus as their lord and savior. They lead others to be able to better themselves through Christ and live a life worth living. If you start scrutinizing everything everyone says then we are all sinners and all unbelievers. Jesus didn’t come here to judge, he came to show us love, the kind of love and mercy we as unworthy humans need. That’s the basic message that they portray. Love. Love as you are, love with your failures, love with your sins, love with your shortcomings because Jesus will take care of all those and help you overcome them.
You cannot come and say an entire church is “unrighteous” just because you don’t agree with their views. Last I checked they are leading others into the path of Christ are they not? They are not denying the bible. Furthermore, don’t you think that if they strayed away from His teachings and path, would they be able to do what they have been able to or change as many lives as they have? A ministry which strays away from Gods true calling usually gets strung out and left to dry with the leadership set in shame. However all you’ve seen has grown in this ministry. Now please tell me how this is not God using them and how this is just the power of a couple men. Please prove that this isn’t Gods work and will.
Jesus has called us to love others and to avoid sin. However how can we love others (as in non-Christians) when we Christians all we do is hate on other Christians? How can you preach or say you believe in something when you don’t even practice it yourself?
It was Walter Martin that stated that it is the cults that declared war on the church.
Hillsong is a cult. Brian Houston is it’s leader. It’s this kind of demonisation and slander on faithful ministers of God’s Word that shows the hatred he has towards Christians and the truth of God’s Word.
It is the excessive emphasis on “love others” to the point that people believe that is the entire Gospel that results in entries like yours. Judging other Christians for defending the ONE truth faith delivered to the saints as we are commanded. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1%3A3&version=KJV
How is pastors correcting false doctrine and exposing some preacher way out of his depth even on Twitter not “loving others and “avoiding sin”?
Was Houston’s response to correction “without sin”? Did the apostle Peter bluster, show mock indignation, call the apostle Paul an intellectual Pharisee ans seek to turn his followers against Paul when he was acting in error (see Galatians chapter 2)? Houston is sinning by judging others wrongly and putting personal wounded pride before biblical truth.
If you value your Christian faith learn more about it is so important to learn to tell the truth from error. “Almost right” is not good enough.
Clarification: when Peter was acting in error, Paul rebuked him publicly to prevent other Christians from forming the false conclusion that Faith + circumcision = salvation.
“I don’t go to this church as I live across the world from them […]”
“Last I checked they are leading others into the path of Christ are they not?”
So you “live across the world from [hillsong]”, but you’ve somehow managed to “check” what they’re doing, is that right?
You should run back to Brian Houston and tell him that if he’s going to indulge in astroturfing, he will first need to find people with the brains to carry out their assigned missions in at manner that is at least half-way credible. (Of course, the bad news for Brian is that he won’t find anyone like that within the walls of any hillsong “church”).
Hi Pablo
You say not to judge but isn’t that what Brian Houston did when he called people evil, demonic heretics when he knows nothing about them? I would say it’s Brian who lacks love. The people who questioned him on twitter are following God’s word, but Brian’s response is ignorant and unloving.
“Furthermore, don’t you think that if they strayed away from His teachings and path, would they be able to do what they have been able to or change as many lives as they have?”
You can’t seriously believe this can you? Would you say the same about Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses?
@Pablo – there’s quite a few holes in your argument Pablo. Brian Houston et al do not lead people to Christ – they lead them into Hillsong and its “culture” of bright lights, “cool music” money raking activities, and the post modernist world of Hillsong United.
Hillsong as an entity use marketing schemes (Drucker’s church growth methods included) to get people in, coupled with cult tactics to keep them in. Brian preaches a motivational self centred message, which cannot be reconciled with the Gospel of jesus Christ.
Many of us currently have contact with Hillsong people – those who have stayed and those who have left – and you have to hear their stories Pablo – about how much of a bully Brian is and how ignorant this man and his wife really are, concerning spiritual things. There is a constant stream of people leaving Hillsong because of the houstons and the way the “do church”… for it is not God’s way – it is man’s way.
In doing all of the above, they create a completely false atmosphere, in which the new recruits are manipulated into beleiving that they have “met with God” and are now “saved”. They are educated to “tithe” and to serve the church for endless hours each week, voluntarily and without pay.
If they start to see through the Hillsong mirage and question the teaching or the oddball behaviour of the leaders, they are very quickly silenced and/or shown the door.
The situation would be comical if it weren’t so serious Pablo, taking into account that these “pastors” have influence over millions of people, globally. With that kind of influence comes an “awsome” responsibility – one which they cannot fulfill and one which the Lord holds them entirely responsible for…
The Houstons would be very lucky to make it as youth leaders in many other decent churches, considering their Bible ignorance and highly questionable methodologies, but here we have them welcomed with open arms by gullible congregations, world wide, while attempting to perform the role of “senior pastors”? Unbelievable…
I do not hate the people of Hillsong Pablo, but I do encourage them to open their Bibles (get yourselves a decent translation folks – put those “Massage” and NIV ‘bibles’ in the nearest bin) and look at what God’s word says about the nature and character of God and the true structure of His church – they’ve obviously missed something along the way…
You both have problems. One is theologically naive and the other lacks faith, hope & love to restore/build a brother who is on the same journey.
“[…] the other lacks faith, hope & love to restore/build a brother who is on the same journey.”
In all likelyhood Pablo cannot be helped. He is representative of the multitudes who are enjoying themselves immensely on the broad road, and who have no intention of getting off it.
It’s people like Pablo who make the Brian Houstons of this world rich and famous, but riches and fame only last for a little while. Brian is already sixty years of age, so he’s only got another twenty or thirty years to enjoy his ill-gotten gains. It’s not really all that long, is it?
@Sally – sorry Sally, but whom are you referring to? A little clarity would go a long way to avoiding any confusion over your remarks…
Pablo, there is nothing in your reply about brian houston and his behaviour.
I never realised correcting him was such a blow to his ego, so anyone with any correction is a Pharisee. Perhaps brian should look up ‘the woes of the Pharisees’. They are woes of Hypocrisy, and describe those who are more concerned with tithing, marketplaces, social status and worldly, carnal matters. Sounds much more like hillsong ‘executives’ than Biblical commentators.
Deleting his twitter posts as if they never happened, so he would not have to answer any awkward questions from his followers, is just embarrassing and sad.
Although, I can understand he is under pressure with the Royal Commission just around the corner.
Brian Houston had every opportunity to learn about modalism when he invited TD Jakes to preach at Hillsong conference. I remember there were quite a few people in the congregation that were concerned about Jakes’ theology and raised it directly with the pastors. It seems like Brian Houston didn’t care enough to do any research. He is still as ignorant as ever.
Austin
dont you think the NIV is a credible bible translation? i think the NIV and the NKJV are really good for new christians.
my bible is the KJV and AMP, but most christians i have met cant understand the thous and thees of the KJV.
i agree that MSG and the NLT, are bibles christians should avoid, but why do so many christians love these watered down and diluted bible translations.
lots of christians like the ESV or NASB.
1 peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1 corinthians 3:2
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
hebrews 5:12-14
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil..
Hello Mrhatch – no offence meant to NIV readers as such – I had one for some 18 months as a new believer and I can appreciate the reasons as to why so many have opted for such an easy to read version.
Here’s a link to a comparison between the KJV and the NIV on some of the verses deemed important – ones which the NIV conveniently leaves out:
http://clearviewbaptist.us/faith/NIV%20vs%20KJV%20Comparison.htm
Some scholars have said that the NIV is “70% correct” meaning that some 70% of its text has been translated accurately, but also implying that the remaining 30% has not and is therefore corrupted. Maybe that’s why I gave it up and took on the KJV after my first two years as a Christian – the NIV was no longer feeding me.
Strictly speaking, it is not a matter of translations as such, but the texts which the translation comes from. The KJV comes from the set of texts known as the ‘Received Text’ which is a time honoured grouping of texts (some 70 texts) of which the majority agree.
Tyndale, Matthews Wycliffe and other famous Reformation teachers used this set of texts in their translations too, not just the KJV translators. I do not have problems with thees and thous as I’ve read this Bible for some 35 years and have gotten used to them. The New KJV is seen as an answer to this by some – check it out if you get the chance.
Translations as such, are not inspired but the very cultish Ruckmanites believe that they are (they are a KJV only cult, lead by a very rude and allegedly immoral Mr Peter Ruckman) – you can read one account of his life story here:
http://www.ruckmanism.org/timeline-major-events-life-peter-s-ruckman
It is the holy Spirit who leads and guides us into all truth – truly he is the Parakletos – the one who comes alongside and assists in times of need. Without a true rendition of God’s word and the assistance of the Holy Ghost, we would be lost indeed.
The Message doesn’t even qualify as a proper paraphrase, and the other versions you listed are in the same boat as the NIV – some have accurate passages dotted here and there, but where they err, the translators have used texts other than the Received Text. We have to believe that God has preserved His word all down through the Church age, otherwise we have NO word of God in written form.
The KJV and other Bibles from that era may not be perfect, but all the rest of these modern translations, including the NASB (often heralded as “Gods word” by NAR proponents) have all left many things off the page, because the Ladicean Church has finally found a bunch of “Bibles” that suits their doctrine – and for no other reason.
“……the NASB (often heralded as “Gods word” by NAR proponents) have all left many things off the page, because the Ladicean Church has finally found a bunch of “Bibles” that suits their doctrine – and for no other reason.”
That’s a first! Never heard that before, Austin! Have to say I don’t agree with you about the NASB. It’s the most ‘academic’ version and I have an NASB Study Bible. The ESV would be my favourite though I haven’t purchased an actual paper copy, using an ESV app on my iPad and iPhone. I still have the older version of the NIV before the rather outrageous changes to the text came in the later versions.
From http://www.ligonier.org/reformation-study-bible/about/why-esv/
Translation Styles Compared:
In his book The Word of God in English (pp. 81–82), Leland Ryken provides a helpful illustration of this problem by listing various translations of the middle part of 1 Thessalonians 1:3. First, he provides four translations that follow an essentially literal philosophy of translation:
“… your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (RSV).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (NASB).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV).
Because these translations follow an essentially literal philosophy of translations, their translations of the original text are almost identical, and the reader knows what the original author actually wrote. By way of contrast, we may compare the way in which dynamic equivalent translations translate the same text:
“…your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (NIV, TNIV).
“…how you put your faith into practice, how your love made you work so hard, and how your hope in our Lord Jesus Christ is firm” (GNB).
“…your faithful work, your loving deeds, and your continual anticipation of the return of our Lord Jesus Christ” (NLT).
“…your faith and loving work and…your firm hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (CEV).
Not only are these translations strikingly different from the essentially literal translations, they are also strikingly different from each other. All of these translations insert explanatory words or phrases that are not found in the original text. Some completely replace the original phrases with their subjective interpretations. The line between translation and interpretation becomes hopelessly blurred, and the reader is left uncertain of what the original author wrote.”
It often boils down to an individual having a favourite translation. For instance, my husband loves his NKJV and starts his day reading a couple of chapters and has for the last 25 years (probably read through the whole bible cover to cover at least 25 times!) Having started with the (better translation) NIV in the early years, my preferred now is the ESV and the NASB. Our church has NIV pew bibles – again the older ‘unadulterated’ version, and some churches are now changing to the ESV as their pew bibles.
To add fuel to the debate, we now have the KJV Only movement claiming the only true version! Translations are just that, translations – none are the original. Funny considering the original King James Bible scholars, admitted that their work was provisional, not final (as noted by their preface and by more than 8000 marginal notes indicating alternate renderings).
For some good research on the KJV only issue –
http://vintage.aomin.org/kjvo.html
http://vintage.aomin.org/ResponseToRuckman.html
“the NASB (often heralded as “Gods word” by NAR proponents”
Unfortunately this has turned out to be true – when I visited the NAR church here in Brisbane in mid 2012, Katherine Rounalla (their resident female ‘apostle’) stated this as a fact from the pulpit – and all of the crowd (several hundred people attending, including pastors from many other churches,) said “Amen” – as did the visiting platform ministry from America.
However – Brian Simmons had brought out boxes and boxes full of his heretical new age version to sell while he was there that weekend, but backed up Katherine’s claim to the hilt – it was “the word of God” – the best there was – until his paraphrase version came along, that is!
You can’t get a better endorsement for a false Bible than that of a local ‘apostle’ and another international one, who has just finished “rolling his own” version, to sell for personal profit, can you? Holly Pivec from “Spirit of Error” website agrees:
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2013/04/a-new-nar-bible-the-passion-translation/3014
As far as it goes, I am not KJV only, (I have a Laymen’s Parallel, and an Amplified,) but I do recognise the strengths that this Bible version has, and it has served the western church well for over 400 years – not a bad track record….
FWIW – I managed to get to see a copy of an original 1611 KJV when living in Adelaide in 1999 – its first draft was full of ‘typos’ – some very bad ones too, but after some revisions were put in place, it came out fairly well. The KJV that most people read today is based on another revision done in 1870 – it is by no means the ‘typo ridden’ original…
As for the NASB – it may not be a bad rendering in many places, but what tends to happen is that where a version is weak, that is the very place that false teachers tend to do their “twisting the word” act – just some thoughts based on experience.
Earlier KJV revisions link: http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon10.html
So are you saying that if a false movement (NAR) uses a particular version of the bible, the NASB, (highly regarded and endorsed by millions of faithful Christians), that bible in is error?
If C. Peter Wagner quoted Spurgeon or Whitefield or Jonathon Edwards, does that make those heroes of the faith untrustworthy?
@Churchwatcher – what I’m saying is that the NASB has been used to promote some NAR heresies by the usual art form of “scripture twisting”. I have never used it myself.
I’m also saying that many “modern versions” seem to be watered down in their rendition of important passages, and that perhaps the reason that the NASB finds itself popular with many NAR adherents, is that parts of it may be easier to twist than those same parts in other versions.
The NIV/KJV example I gave earlier, is but a small sample of many such changes where key words, phrases and even entire verses have been scrapped by these modern versions – I think that should be clear enough. Here’s another link:
http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_hrmntcs/kjv_vs_niv.php
It does beg the question – which version is the word of God – which version(s) have a more proper rendering of the scripture than others? If I were to take your comment at face value, then I would have to also endorse the New World Transalation (JW “bible” for some decades now,) as some seven million JW’s endorse it and use it regularly!
Our basis for entertaining a particular Bible version has to be a lot stronger than just ‘going by the numbers’ – RC Bibles such as the Douay and the Knox versions must be printed in their tens of millions every year – maybe more!
I’ll say it again – it is the original texts that are aramount as God must have preserved His word, all down through history, so that we can have the word of God, unadulterated in our day, but with so many “modern versions” it seems that Satan has attempted to muddy the waters – yes? No?
In terms of false prophets quoting true ones – again, the words of famous men of God have been misused in order for the false prophets to gain a foothold on the church and once gained, that foothold has been used to introduce error – and that would be their motive for appearing to use “truth”, gleaned from those faithful men, so that error could become entrenched.
Peter Ruckman and his cult actually believe that the KJV translation was inspired of God – not just the original texts – which many believe are now embodied in the Received Text. He has used that false belief to gather a crowd around himself and then teach the most outrageous lies and heresies – but that doesn’t mean that the poor old KJV is wrong – it simply means that it has been misused – as a prop for his clutic teachings…
Brian Houston uses an NIV and some of the posters on this blog have gone after him for just that, So where does that leave NIV users? In the same category as Brian? Or are they more serious in their Bible study, realising that Brian’s NIV is just a stage prop and due to his false teaching, does not bare greatly on any such debate regarding Bible versions?
“….perhaps the reason that the NASB finds itself popular with many NAR adherents, is that parts of it may be easier to twist than those same parts in other versions.”
Austin, can you give an NASB text example? In light of the very close examples of texts here:
“… your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (RSV).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (NASB).
“…your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV).
As I said Churchwatcher – it will only be used to do the “twisting” where it is weak – not where it is strong! Obviously, the introduction of Brian Simmons’ new age “Bible” (officially known as “The Passion” version,) will be the solution to where the NASB may still have some strength, and of course, he has followed the pattern of all cult leaders (such as Mormon founder Brigham Young and JW founder Charles Taze Russel,) in doing so – rewriting the Bible to suit his doctrines.You can take that as a given…
According to my sources, all modern versions (except the NKJV) use texts that are known as the “Alexandrian Texts” – codex A and B and those texts are strongly supported by the Vatican and many apostate church denominations, and seminaries. There is also a more modern and recent version known as the Nestle – Arland text, which scholars have turned to as a “tidier” compilation/version of the two A and B codexes.
This includes the NASB, as far as I can tell – an endorsement from such places hardly gives one confidence now, does it? If you go back to the link in my previous post, you’ll see lots of examples, spread throughout the Gospels and the rest of the NT, showing clearly that those verses, or part thereof, have been deliberately removed, because of the schools of “higher criticism” – schools that were mostly run by liberal theologians and scholars – and that should tell you all you need to know…
As I said, I have a Laymen’s parallel and if I want to do such comparisons as you have done, then I can simply open it up and see for myself, what the differences are – and there will be many…
This is not some ‘fly by night’ opinion I am offering up – I have studied these issues on and off for some years now, and am happy with the sources I have investigated.
If you want to read the NASB without doing any ‘homework’ but just relying on the testimony of millions, that’s fine with me, but you place yourself in the self same position that all Catholics do too – they trust their priesthood, and their Pope.
I haven’t really got time or energy to do what many others have done, and lots of it is now online – I won’t waste time reinventing the wheel, just for the sake of argument…
FWIW – the KJV was written in a prose style so that it could be easily remembered and therefore, easily quoted. The JW’s used the KJV in their door to door campaigns until around 1961 – and the reason suspected for them to reinvent their own (New World Translation,) ‘bible’ was that too many people knew their older version Bibles, so well, that the JW’s could make no easy inroads in their search for gullible “church goers” to be converted to their way of thinking and belief.
Perhaps there’s a clue in there somewhere, as to why the post – modern church has been coaxed into accepting many watered down versions of the scripture – and just look at the state that it’s in!
I do my homework and compare the texts – always have. Just cannot see an argument against the NASB based on its ‘use’ by NAR proponents, (and it certainly isn’t watered-down, being one of the best literal translations available. Which is why it’s recommended for a more academic study).
Having said that, I think one of the worst bibles used today, one highly endorsed by WOF/NAR is the Dakes, (http://www.equip.org/articles/dakes-dangerous-doctrine/#christian-books-5) most of which is unorthodox and speculative. The use of this particular translation has started to cause one family member to ‘stumble’ as they attend an extreme WOF/NAR church.
Ooops – I meant to say “Mormon founder, Joseph Smith” – sorry about that…
@Churchwatcher – thanks for that reference on Dakes – another one “who has crept in unawares”… I’ll stow it away with the rest of my ammo… Believe me, I don’t like false prophets or false teachers any more than you do…
Since you like doing ‘homework’ – here’s a little bit more comparison info – I’m assuming that the NASV and the NASB are (almost) identical?
I don’t know the people who posted this so I can’t endorse their entire website/belief system, but it seems to follow an all too familiar pattern – lots of parts of Bible verses crossed out, altered or omitted altogether:
http://www.sound-doctrine.net/nasv.html
I think it’s only fair to add that the author of that link is a KJV only proponent Austin.
Dr. John R. Rice’s Reply To Dr. David Otis Fuller On The Kjv : http://www.kjvonly.org/bob/ross_rice_reply_to_fuller.htm
It’s the comparative list that i was linking to – not the websites entire contents, besides
are you suggesting that it is wrong to be a proponent of something? Impossible – as we all have some degree of bias… 🙂
For instance – young Nath, is obviously a proponent of IB doctrine and what he considers proper church order – which may be welcomed by some and considered arrogant by others… but I can accept him as a brother, despite any marked differences we may have…
I am a classical Pentecostal and do not subscribe to some of what Nath would believe, but that doesn’t give me the right to trash him on matters where we may have a difference… not at all.
But back to the issue – it’s fine by me for there to be detractors, no matter what the cause, as it is often in the midst of conflict that truth emerges. Paul said this to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 11:
“For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor 11:19)
The Corinthians were divided over their respective visiting ministries (Paul, Peter and Apollos,) and Paul was lecturing them on it in chapter one, but saying that is was necessary in chapter 11, so that those who held to God’s truth (despite any misguided loyalties they may have had,) would become manifest to all, and thus the bickering would cease…
It is not uncommon for the saints to be divided over minor matters (non essentials) – or even Bible versions (God forbid!) but, from where I’m sitting, it is in the cause of seeking Christ, that such disputes and debates occur, and from time to time we should welcome them, as a healthy past time in the interests of Bible truth, good scholarship and spiritual growth.
Bishop J.C. Ryle used a KJV and look at the fine sermons and practical Christian living espoused in his writings? Do you think he was deceived?
The KJV is a Bible written in English – but what if I were a Dutchman? If understood little or no English it would be no good to me at all, however (considering the ‘pedigree’ of the Received Text) if I were to obtain a copy of a Dutch Bible which was translated faithfully from the same Received Text, then I would have the equivalent rendition in my own native Dutch language – wouldn’t I? That is true for all Bibles, for all time – it’s the primary texts that matter – not the individual translations…
According to the link below:
“It is easy for people who have never used the King James Version as their primary Bible individually or in church life to dismiss the KJV as being no more than a relic in the museum of the past.
Actually, the King James Version remains a major influence in the life of the church. For starters, the King James Version is still the English Bible of choice in many Protestant churches and among perhaps millions of Bible readers.
When we consult the charts on current Bible sales, to this day the KJV remains the second best selling English Bible on the market. In March of 2011 it actually rose to first place on one index of sales.”
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=272
I must confess to being as guilty of ‘chasing bunny trails’ as anyone else who comments here. However I do have a problem with this site becoming, as Nath indicated, a place that discourages Hillsong/C3/CHC ‘refugees’ from seeking out, and trusting churches/pastors/ministers when there clearly are good ones out there. Or discouraging these same people from trusting in bibles that are dependable and well-translated, whether they be ESV, NASB, NKJV and KJV.
That really bothers me. To quote a friend ‘maybe it’s because we don’t study the scriptures enough that we don’t have any doctrinal discernment anymore?’
De-programming from false teaching is hard enough without giving eventual hope of light at the end of the tunnel. It’s taken us almost 8 years dealing with that issue. We need to know that as we read and meditate on these same trustworthy translations, the Lord can bring about much needed spiritual health and well-being.
Austin – just to let you know we have contacts with quite a few people overseas and we’re greatly encouraged to see how the Lord is moving, bringing so many people out of these false movements. An ‘awakening”, so to speak. A huge awakening. We all seem to have similar testimonies – with some, like us, happy in our deception before the Holy Spirit opened our eyes. Others finally heeding the warnings of friends and family. The majority willing to risk the shunning, the resultant lack of (previous) fellowship and community for the sake of Truth. It’s amazing to track this, at the same time, so humbling that He so lovingly deals with us, despite our previous ‘love affair’ with deception.
I hear you Churchwatcher – I do not propose to indulge in “doubtful disputations” either – and in mentioning the NAR church happenings of some 2 years ago, I never intended to engage in a Bible version debate, nor to lead people astray or into a time of uncertainty. It was meant to serve as a warning.
That false NAR churches are not the place for such “refugees” as you have described, to be going to…
I don’t think that anyone looking on would be adversely affected by our discussion so far, but I will leave it there for now. I would certainly encourage the older saints on the blog to consider what has been said though…
Millions of people suffered and many of them died for what they believed in during the time of the Reformation, and the fruits of their labours should not be so easily discounted…
Thank you Austin and Church watcher for you insights, i have had the KJV and Amp for 10 years now.
before that i had a NIV for 5 years, i agree with you Austin it didnt feed my spirit or my soul either.
i only read the NIV in the sunday services and in the prayer group and bible study.
because those bibles are in my church, my pastor and his wife who is from Sydney Australia, they are based in London England where i live.
its a very small world, he is a Anglican trained minister. and his prefrence is the NASB and his wifes prefrence is the ESV.
Church watcher i didnt know you were a woman, you are a very strong woman of the faith.
Mrhatch – there’s a few “churchwatcher” moderators on this site, both male and female. A bit confusing at times but it’s good to bear each other’s burdens. Especially when there’s so many refugees coming out of these movements, it helps to know they’re not alone.
Hi Mrhatch – I wasn’t really looking for a debate on Bible versions – but, there it is.
I know where you’re coming from and I do sometimes use Biblegateway or Biblehub as reference points to look at what other versions are saying, but I am dubious about the quality of many of them.
As for your comments on Churchwatcher being a woman – classic and hillarious!!! Because sometimes s/he is! 🙂
sorry for the debate
what i was trying to say is, that most christians stuggle with the KJV the thous and the thees.
thats why they will use the NKJV or NIV.
not many christians will go from reading NIV to a KJV. like you and i did Austin.
because not many christians are that mature in the word of god.
this is why pastors use all these different bible translations just to preach a sermon.
because they know most christians dont read the bible for themselves.
there are too many bible translations to choose from. and this is what pastors do when they preach their sermons.
they send out mixed messages, and many of their followers get confused.
the best advice i was given when i came to salvation 15 years ago by a friend who got saved a few years before me.
was to read the bible for myself, and not get caught up in mens opinions.
im grateful for that advice, and no other bible can compare to the KJV.
peter ruckman is really off key so i dont support him, even through he says the same thing.
Hi Mrhatch – I have no problems with the debate – and that wasn’t your doing. It takes two or more to ‘tango’ (by changing partners occasionally.) I’m not hoping to effect change in the majority, but just to cause some to think about the choices they make when it comes to investing in new Bibles and study aids, that’s all.
“the best advice i was given when i came to salvation 15 years ago by a friend who got saved a few years before me, was to read the bible for myself, and not get caught up in mens opinions.”
Yes – that’s the reason that the Reformation spread like wildfire – people came into possession of the scriptures themselves and they could consider all matters relating to God and the things of God, without a medieval priest “interpreting” it for them. They could cast off Popish doctrines, (over time) and the scam of paying indulgences, and share the Gospel with unsaved friends and neighbours.
What began as a revelation – “the just shall live by faith” eventually went global with the advent of world wide missionary efforts, and all because many faithful men and women withstood the persecution, torture and even death, inflicted on them by Rome, in order to bring to us the word of God. Their sacrifice has not been forgotten.
And as long as the church continues to read and study the scriptures for themselves, and question “Popish” doctrines (Hyperfaith) and financial scams (Tithing), the spirit in which the Reformation began, will continue, and the just will continue to live by faith, until Jesus comes again…
There are just two things I’d like to say about the previous discussion. I cannot fathom how many people don’t take their Bibles to church each week, because they have either gotten used to relying on “whatever has been left laying around in the pews” or worse still, rely solely on whatever “Bible” is projected onto those large monitor screens???
The second thing is that some people who claim to be of “Reformed” persuasion, are dumping off the Reformation Bibles (all of them) and embracing cut down/watered down translations. When the church produces nothing more than a watered down gospel and no longer teaches sound doctrine, there has to be a very good reason for it.
Questionable Bible versions, as a topic, may only form a part of that reason – the rest is down to the acceptance of false teaching and practice from money hungry sellouts – who have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. But how do you get it back?
How do you rescue people, who do not hold to sound doctrine, and have no credible or reliable study resources (due to laziness or wrong priorities maybe – I’ve got study aids I’ve had for more than 20 years) or who just believe, out of hand, whatever Pastor Disastor has chosen to project on to their monitor screen?
How do you “Test the spirits” (1 John 4:1) under those conditions?
I’m not aware of any Reformed believers embracing watered-down translations, in fact the opposite has been our experience. Definitely seeing the seeker mega-churches rely on big-screen ‘Message Bible’ translation as their preferred text.
@Churchwatcher – from the pen of John MacArthur:
“The most popular dynamic-equivalency translations, which dominate the evangelical world, are the New International Version (NIV), Today’s New International Version (TNIV), The Message (MSG), The Living Bible (TLB), the Good News Bible (GNB), and the New Living Translation (NLT). Of those, the NIV is the most reliable.”
and
“The four most popular formal equivalency translations in English are the King James Version (KJV), the New King James Version (NKJV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), and the English Standard Version (ESV).
The KJV is the oldest of the four and continues to be the favorite of many. It is known as the Authorized Version of 1611 because King James I approved the project to create an authoritative English Bible. Although it contains many obsolete words (some of which have changed in meaning), many people appreciate its dignity and majesty. The NKJV is a similar translation, taken from the same group of ancient manuscripts, that simply updates the archaic language of the KJV”
.http://www.erictyoung.com/2011/01/02/which-bible-translation-is-best-john-macarthur-morning-devotion/
MacArthur discusses the differences between Formal and Dynamic versions of the Bible in this article…
I’ve actually got the hardcopy John Macarthur Study Bible (NASB version, it’s also available in the NKJV version). And as I mentioned before, the ESV Study Bible on iPad – last year also downloaded the Lutheran Study Bible (Concordia Publishing House). Still find myself drawn to the ESV above else.
In God’s providence, as I go through sermons etc, this podcast came up in the “line-up” this morning. Really worth listening to when it comes to studying the Bible. Hope it blesses you as much as it did me.
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/topics-and-issues/role-holy-spirit-bible-study/
http://www.challies.com/articles/the-danger-of-lectio-divina
Thank you Churchwatcher – I’ve got to run some errands this morning but will check in on them later…
@Churchwatcher – if you think that KJV “English” may be difficult for people to pronounce, here’s a link to a scan of a book on The life of John Knox” – written in Scottish, using the ‘English’ spelling of the day:
http://www.archive.org/stream/worksofmccrie01mccruoft#page/90/mode/2up
…and yes, even I had trouble recognising a few words here and there – I’ll never think ill of anybody’s basic “typos” again… 🙂
“Furthermore, Rollings bought Pastor Christ Rosebrough from Kongsvinger Lutheran Church into the discussion,”
You are taking your deification of Rosebrough a bit far don’t you think? And you accuse Hillsong of being a cult!!
Newtaste. Pot – kettle – black? Go back over to C3Churchwatch and continue your rants against Phil Pringle, then come back here and explain why you see a difference between Pringle and Houston. Then you might be taken seriously.