As you read this article posted below, you could almost be tempted to think a Hillsong member wrote it as an infomercial for selling their ‘product’?
Fresh approach to faith draws thousands in NYC
“Every Sunday, thousands of people gather in New York City to get in line for a church service that is full of hand-raising, heart-thumping, hipster-style Christianity.
That is Hillsong Church. Their followers, which include celebrities like Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant, are mostly 20-somethings, many of whom grew up in church, but are drawn to Hillsong’s style and substance. In this “come as you are” congregation, tattoos and leather jackets are welcome for a 90-minute experience that’s part rock concert and part gospel.
The pastor leading Hillsong New York is 36-year-old Carl Lentz, who comes with Brad Pitt looks andBilly Graham theology, and has enough tattoos to make a rapper blush. He is even the New York Knicks’ official chaplain on the road.
“We aren’t trying to have this cool trendy packed church,” Lentz said. “The story is not the clothes people wear. It’s the lives they lead.”
In short, this is not your granddaddy’s church.
Hillsong New York was started four years ago and is now the church’s United States flagship. They host close to 8,000 people over six Sunday services in a rented New York City theater, but in years past, Hillsong has met in nightclubs.
With very few paid staff, the church [relies] on an army of 20-something-aged volunteers. Some members said Hillsong helped them overcome addiction or reconnect with their faith. Others said the weekday community service work and small group meetings provided both a connection and purpose.
“This generation has seen multiple wars, seen things no one expected,” Lentz said. “It seems like a pretty tumultuous time in culture, and I think the response to that has been the really shallow world of social media. A real smoke and mirrors way of living … so you come into church and there is a realness to it.”
Hillsong Church was started in Sydney, Australia, 30 years ago by Pastor Brian Houston, and has grown into a worldwide Christian phenomenon, with satellite outposts across the globe from London and Paris to Kiev and Cape Town.
“If you walked into all of them you would see a similar demographic of people,” Houston said. “You could close your eyes and think I am in any one of our Hillsong churches anywhere in the world.”
For many in their flock, the church’s Christian rock music group, Hillsong United, is a huge draw to come to services.
“Definitely the initial draw for many, many people,” Houston said. “We started singing and writing songs in our church and we were surprised when they started singing them in other churches in Australia and then suddenly for those songs to be sung all around the world like they are now… it’s something that God has given us as an arrow to a bigger message.”
Hillsong United is one of the hottest bands on Earth. With hits like “Oceans,” and “Break Free” Hillsong United has sold over 16 million albums worldwide, playing to packed venues across the globe and is now nominated for its first American Music Award this year.
Joel Houston, the son of Pastor Brian Houston, is co-lead pastor in New York but also guides Hillsong United.
“Music has the incredible ability to break down walls and to reach people’s hearts. It was given to us by God for the very purpose of worship,” he said.
But when asked how vital the money is that the music brings into the church, which is a non-profit, Brian Houston didn’t give a straight answer.
“To be honest I really genuinely can’t answer the exact amount [of annual revenue],” he said. “Of course we are a non-profit so all of the finances come into the non-profit and are used for the ministry.
Like many mega churches, Hillsong is shy about discussing their finances and how much money they bring in. At the service “Nightline” attended in New York, they asked us not to film the offertory.
“The fact that these lights are on, these chairs are here, it’s because single mom’s young couples, young people, single people, older couples, believe in the cause,” Lentz said. “So the collective sacrifice of many is what you see in our church.”
And also like many mega-churches, Hillsong has not escaped scandal. Fifteen years ago, Brian Houston discovered that his father, who was also a pastor, was being accused of sexually assaulting a child.
“We received a complaint that my father had abused children, males, and you can imagine that was the hardest day of my life to find out that my hero was a [pedophile],” Houston said.
As a leader for his denomination, Houston said he removed his father from the ministry immediately. He said he later came under attack for not alerting the police. Houston’s father died in 2004.
Brian Houston recently testified before an Australian commission investigating institutional sexual assault to try to prevent it from happening.
“It brings all of that rawness back to the surface pretty quick,” he said. “Just accepting that my father has devastated and destroyed the lives of children is just a really hard thing to accept.”
While Hillsong seems like a “hip and modern” church, some of its beliefs are quite Christian conservative. One area critics, both liberal and conservative, have seized upon is the church’s stance on social issues like homosexuality.
“We see it as a conversation,” Brian Houston said. “It’s quite clear in the New Testament the apostle Paul describes homosexuality as a sin and I can’t un-write the bible… but on the other hand we are not a church that can just make big blanket sweeping statements that dismiss people.”
When asked what the pastor would say if a gay couple walked into Hillsong, Houston said, “the short answer is I think all of us need to be changing. So that’s what serving Jesus does.”
“We would never be the kind of church who when people joined the choir asked them are you heterosexual? Are you homosexual? We will never be that kind of church,” he added. “I think it was Billy Graham who said it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge and it’s our job to love.”
Another part of Hillsong’s job, as Pastor Brian sees it, is growth. His son Ben Houston just opened Hillsong Los Angeles, and already long lines are forming for Sunday services they hold in a rent theater on Sunday.
“You don’t have to sell a good party,” Lentz said.”
Source: Fresh approach to faith draws thousands in NYC, CBS News, http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-hillsong-megachurch-draws-thousands-every-sunday/, 06/11/2014, 6:57 AM. (Accessed 15/11/2014.)
Hillsong Church Watch 
It certainly seems like an infomercial in the clip. If that service clip is a true example of what Hillsong always preaches no wonder its followers show so little biblical knowledge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWjn1s6GZds
Back when I was a young ‘un I loved a church (and books) that valued experiences and giving self-esteem building, people-pleasing messages …. There is a time and a place for ministering to people’s unique personal needs and creating positive changes (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8) after all….. but then I grew up.
That is what struck me while watching it – where are the grown-ups? A church that does not minister to maturing/ mature Christians at all is a very bad sign.
Luke 6:39 And he [Jesus] spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
“That is what struck me while watching it – where are the grown-ups?”
That’s the thing we noticed when we attended Hillsong in the 80s. The elderly knew something was not right. The elderly and the mature discerning folk were made to feel uncomfortable and eventually left.
Hillsong deliberately target the young and gullible. And Brian Houston and his teaching staff deliberately target the helpless and the desperate in his church to rely on them and their words/instructions. This is why the story of Elijah and the widow and allegorising texts are so popular in these cults. They encourage people to read themselves into these desperate situations in the biblical narratives so they have full control over their members.
Very interesting that the supposedly “new and cool” Hillsong church uses the Middle Ages Roman Catholic church preaching style that Martin Luther condemned. http://threehierarchies.blogspot.com.au/2005/12/luther-and-allegorical-interpretation.html
The more things change, the more things stay the same….
@thinker – it was a well known fact that back when Clark Taylor started the COC here in Brisbane, he would not ordain anyone much over the age of 35 for any ministry position. Younger inexperienced *leaders* were easier to control.
Wise old ‘owls’ in the ministry would have exposed his many errors (including but not limited to, Latter Rain doctrine,) and as well, they would have been a lot more watchful for any immoral situations that could have arisen.
The fruit of not having such older, wiser men in the eldership was that the COC was prone to such attacks, and eventually Taylor himself came unstuck, being defrocked for sexual sins with a female youth leader.
Today, the COC movement is a divided house, with some breaking away, and calling themselves ‘Citipointe Church’ – they have even changed their original constitution – removing words like “the blood of Jesus” and “the cross”, and have become an almost totally seeker sensitive movement.
What Gospel?
To Thor : ” Taylor himself came unstuck, being defrocked for sexual sins with a youth leader ”
I didn’t know it was a youth leader !
But I do know he wasn’t defrocked for long and came back as a Pastor and maybe Senior Pastor ?
A Pastor should be beyond reproach.
When I went to Bible college we were warned about the consequences of sexual sin in the ministry.
@ziggy – I don’t think that this is the appropriate place to discuss the serious moral failures of Taylor at any length. Suffice it to say that the information came from former members of the board who were there in the late 1980’s. I know them personally and believe the information to be good.
Taylor did approach the new board and chairman (Neil Myers) some time later, seeking to come back in some capacity, but he was told to “have a seat amongst the congregation” and that they would adopt a ‘wait and see’ attitude, but to my knowledge, he was never restored to any ministry position within the COC movement. He also remarried his former wife, Anne.
Some 14 years ago, he did establish another work, which is now called Worship Centre, down near Logan city, which he handed over to another couple some two years ago. Here’s a link to a brief history:
http://www.worshipcentre.com.au/a-story.aspx
Thor …. Worship centre was at Carina , not Logan.
OOOooopps! Sorry about that – my mistake…
As a former member of said congregation I can tell you that COC or INC. (International Network of Churches) as they are now known are now nothing more than a Hill$ong clone. Fortunately Churchwatcher and this website along with the insightful teachings of Chris Rosebrough have allowed me to see it all for what it is….
Churchwatcher
that is the truth you said right there, i became a christian in 1999 aged 30 15 years ago.
and all i have heard from most of these churches today, is they want to raise up the next generation.
im 45 now and i know god can use me, but the church wont use me. the church wants to raise up young people because they will do as their told and they wont ask any questions.
yes the church wont use older or middle age christians, why because the will question everything and they have too much discernment revelation wisdom knowledge and understanding.
these youth bibles dont have any truth in them either, yes Churchwatcher they have full control over their members and these young people will find out when its too late because they have been so taken in by these charlatans.
mrhatch said “that is the truth you said right there, i became a christian in 1999 aged 30 15 years ago.
and all i have heard from most of these churches today, is they want to raise up the next generation“.
That’s interesting. I was in my mid to late teens when me and my church friends (of similar age, at a to-be annexed by C3 church) were already being spoken to about becoming “leaders” (in fact, I had a couple of “prophesies” about what a great church leader I was going to become. My friends were told the exact same thing). And the idea that the church wanted you to become a leader really made you want to work hard for the church.
Looking back these days I can see how naive we were. We were never going to be “leaders”, we were being used and controlled. Now it’s plain as daylight to see that only if you were related to the pastor or church elders that’s how you get positions within the church. I wonder, is it just a coincidence that these people are deemed to be more suitable than others, or is it just nepotism? I have my own view on that…
This is one of the many delusional foundations Hillsong is built on. It comes from Frank Houston’s 6 week series of talks on “God at work in the generations” back in the 80s. He spoke from the Old Testament about people like Abraham and Isaac and David and Solomon. He emphasized the importance of families and how God uses the generations to do his work. What the liar didn’t realize is that the history of genealogies in Scripture is the eternally important, precious, blood line of our Saviour, The Lord Jesus Christ, not Frank Houston. It is widely recognized that the Old Testament its all about Christ, it has nothing to do with Frank Houston, and what a liar he is to try to twist it to tell people otherwise.
This is typical of Latter Rain doctrine, people using pulpits to twist the Scripture and make up lies for their own gain. Nepotism is the old way of doing things, its not New Testament at all, in any way. As a result it was widely accepted around Hillsong that Frank and Brian were the same as David and Solomon. Frank raised up Brian to build the big church and finally inherit his own church. The story of David and Solomon is a reflection of God and Christ and that The Lord Jesus builds the church not Frank and Brian, using the believer’s precious time, effort and money, that’s pure heresy.
Whether Brian likes it or not, Frank set him up in a nepotistic system where young impressionable Hillsong devotees refer to certain worship leaders’ term of ministry as a reign. Brian is operating under an “us and them” or “master and servant” structure where the Houstons rule and the church people are the the slaves hilariously giving him all their money. Brian learned all this off Frank, he says he didn’t but he is totally blind to it all, there’s too many who can see the truth, except him.
Brian is running around on line, totally on the back foot, trying to say that he isn’t a master he’s a pastor. It’s widely recognized by multitudes that Brian isn’t a pastor he is a CEO of campuses and leaders in of an organization whose god is filthy lucre. How is it possible for anyone to be a pastor to that many people, it’s humanly impossible. Just take a look at the line up of the executive of Hillsong, they are all CEOs not elders at all. There’s nothing spiritual about that organization at all. Just based on man made lies. The hair stands up on the back of my neck when Brian is referred to as pastor. He’s not a pastor he’s the son of a filthy manipulative liar.
Thor
i have seen the Citipointe Church on the internet, it just looks like another watered down and diluted hillsong to me.
even the logo looks to similar to hillsong, from what you said what a shame this seeker friendly gospel is filtering down from australia to london where i live.
all the modern contemporary emerging church movements in london are from australia or new zealand.
hope city church are a c3 church, c3 church london, hillsong london, hillsong surrey, hillsong kent, hillsong bermondsey, hillsong oxford and now hillsong croydon.
equippers church clapham london equippers church london west is originally from equippers church new zealand now we have equippers church surrey.
these churches are all the same they all copy the hillsong formula.
yes indeed you are right what a gospel, what deception.
theres also this ridiculous !audacious “thing” in manchester even with their own band.. maybe they’re like 3rd generation PP then since i think hope city church sent out another team to start !audacious manchester. glyn barrett seems to be good friends with russell evans of planetshakers movement (who has the planetshakers band). i noticed !audacious a couple yrs ago.
the state of the ‘church’ is sad.. reaching the world for ‘that other Jesus’..
http://audaciousresources.com/
nfg
All these ‘churches’ are implying there is something ‘new’ or ‘cool’ about them, when it is simply a ‘gospel of accommodation’.
Reminds me of the Star Trek line from Mr Spock to Captain Kirk: “It’s life jim, but not as we know it.”
Just change it to: “It’s church Jim, but not as we know it.”
OR “it’s Jesus Jim, but not as we know Him.”
Sad but true.
no_false_gods
yes you are right
yes dave gilpin founder of hope city church in sheffield which started in 1991 planted hope city church london last year 2013. sent out youth pastor glyn barrett to start audacious church in manchester in 1997.
because that is where glyn barrett is originally from, he was brought up in australia.
dave gilpin was originally from sheffield and brought up in australia.
how funny is that? all these english guys bringing back australian ideas to england.
there is another church called life church home which used to be called abundant life ministries in bradford.
the founder paul scanlon who was born in wakefield yorkshire he is english passed it on to his daughter and her husband steve and charlotte gambrill.
steve gambrill who is american was a youth pastor before he became the lead pastor.
mark stevenson is australian who was a worship leader at hillsong sydney and hillsong london has been there since the early 2001 have you heard of him?
he used in neighbours tv show in australia, he then become a worship leader.
yes they are all linked reggie dabbs and chris hill are also linked heard of them?
the audacious band are a english version of the planetshakers band in melbourne australia.
these churches appeal to very young people because of the music and youth programmes.
families are also attracted to these churches because of the kids programmes.
single middle aged people struggle in these churches because write them off and overlook them.
thetruth
what is a ‘gospel of accommodation? i have a idea of what it means but im not sure.
Hi mrhatch,
There was a link to a david Wilkerson sermon ‘the danger of the gospel of accommodation’ on one of the previous articles. CW?
Very informative and really nails the ‘anything goes’ theories of hillsong.
You can google it as well.
mrhatch, thanks for explaining. thats interesting. and i keep noticing charlotte gambrill’s name too & have been meaning to look more into whatever weirdness shes into out of curiosity.. there are so many weirdos involved in this mega-circus..
nfg
Good British conference of interest to us oldies who went through the Toronto Blessing movement in the 90s.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&currSection=sermonstopic&SourceID=crichbaptist&keyworddesc=Toronto+Blessing+20+Years+On&keyword=Toronto+Blessing+20+Years+On
Why the above speeches are important for Hillsong/C3churchwatch and other charismatic Christians not familiar with the Toronto Blessing:
the 21st century pattern of seeking positive experiences of God’s presence through extended worship, pressure to feel NOT think, presenting church leaders as annointed apostles follows the same pattern.
Confronting behaviours e.g. “being slain in the Spirit”, “holy laughter” may not be present in Hillsong’s meetings, but they are no longer necessary. Music is now the tool. Hillsong’s musicians are experts at using that tool.
A request for current attendees/ viewers: next time plan to turn up/ turn on TV when you know the music section is over and open your bible/ bible website to each bible verse quoted. Is your reaction to the message the same as your usual response?
@thinker – maybe laughing and falling over weren’t part of Brian’s “business plan” for Hillsong? Strange, isn’t it, how he often skirts around things that other organisations feel are so important. No gold dust or leaking oil pipes at Hillsong either???
But then again, my recent understanding is that Hillsong no longer has the communion service as part of their meetings either – that may just be the strangest part of all…
Thor, that is what makes Hillsong so dangerous – they may be a “soft drug” compared to the “hard drug” New Apostolic Reformation Charismaniacs, but soft drugs are often the gateway to hard drugs.
Hillsong’s 11th commandment appears to be “thou shalt do and say whatever makes thy viewers feel/stay comfortable and positive”. Therefore, when necessary omit whatever could be displeasing to the unsaved person/ thinking Christians.
As well as omitting offensive-to-the-flesh doctrines Houston has learnt how to omit Charismatic *practices* extremely skilfully. He leaves out what appears obviously weird to non-Charismatics but still manages to subtly encourage Charismatic thinking styles. If they’re properly “absorbed” by Hillsong followers, that will result in them taking up Charismatic practices themselves.
*UNthinking, not thinking christian (may be offended or challenged by difficult bible passages)
Thinker – thanks, great link, listening now.
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
churchwatch : how come there is no ” reply ” under some of your comments ?
Which comments, Ziggy? That shouldn’t be happening.
churchwatcher : the one about Jacob Prasch having a meltdown on the Youtube clip u provided.
Plus another where you provide the names of teachers.
There are more places too.
Thanks
Ziggy – will have to check with the other moderators. In the meantime, just post at the bottom of the article.
Ziggy – I see the problem. Just click on ‘reply’ nearest above where you want to respond and your comment will fall in line.
Thinker – we were so impressed by the conference lectures, we decided to do a stand-alone article over on C3 Church Watch. Thanks for the great resource.
http://c3churchwatch.com/2014/11/26/when-experience-trumps-doctrine-the-toronto-blessing-20-years-on/
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
churchwatcher : I note your comments on Jacob Prasch.
I thought you may have acknowledged his stance against the error from Hillsong .
This particular ‘Churchwatcher’ only knows about Jacob Prasch’s melt-down about John Macarthur. An unfortunate moment for him.
Jacob Prasch Unplugged – YouTube : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TjP0bdpkvx4&autoplay=1
thetruth
thank you for the david wilkerson link, yes the gospel of accomodation, the seeker friendly movement.
feeding the flesh not the spirit, david wilkerson was one of the last preachers who spoke the truth.
who else can replace this man, apart from carter conlon who replaced him. even calvary chapel has gone the wrong way.
philippianas 1:21 to live is christ to die is gain. galatians 2:20 i have been crucified with christ.
john 3:30 he must increase, i must increase.
galatians 4:16 have i become your enemy because i tell you the truth.
galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
who is really preaching the gospel today?
mrhatch : to answer your question ” who is really preaching the Gospel today ? ”
Well it should be answered with ” All of Jesus’ disciples are.”
Jesus gave us all the great commission.
If u would like to know who is a capable teacher on the whole counsel of God , I would suggest Jacob Prasch who understands Greek, speaks Hebrew , is Jewish and has lived in Israel.
Above all he correctly interprets scripture and condemns the antics of organisations like Hillsong.
I have listened to a number of Jacob Prasch MP3’s and video’s lately. While he appears to support all the right people and concepts, he also rails against a lot pf people who disagree with him.
Many people have written him off as a ‘vindictive railer’ in recent years. Prasch has also supported Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel where a lot of people have seen error coming from the pulpits of that denomination over many years.
He argues some things from his Midrash perspective, and also believes that the scriptures have been misinterpreted by people with a Greek philosophical outlook. Well that may be, but I don’t remember anyone teaching from that perspective (genuine believers).
Apart from this recent activity, I have followed Jacob Prasch’s career on and off since 1998, when I saw him live that year and in 1999 in Adelaide, where he exposed the Paradise AOG mega church as a cult, which had left off with original AOG ideals and had gone after the emergent/WOF/laughing revival errors.
Having said all of that, I’m afraid Ziggy that I don’t share your enthusiasm for a man who still has large question marks over his teaching, and rough and shabby treatment of other Christians, particularly via his online forums.
“The whole counsel of God”???
“He argues some things from his Midrash perspective, and also believes that the scriptures have been misinterpreted by people with a Greek philosophical outlook.”
Thor,
We’ve found that his Midrash perspective has some gnostic leanings. (It’s been evident with the people that gravitate to his colleges.) While we do consider him a Christian brother (he does preach the gospel) and consider his warnings and clever observations, we do not suggest people embrace his teachings.
His general understanding of scriptures and current events is good. But when he starts to expand what he means, that is where he gets him in trouble.
In fact, we have seen him falsely report on false teachers and be rather flippant in dealing with his errors.
Here is one memorable quote fom Prasch that summarises the Australian and New Zealand AOG is,
“If you can’t make it in the real world, become an AOG minister.”
To all who made comments on Jacob Prasch.
I have noted your comments and would like to hear who you believe is a quality bible teacher on the scene today covering a wide array of subjects.
Jacob never backs away from a debate.
I note with interest how Jesus provoked those who claimed to know God.
He called them some awful names.
He once said ” You are of your father the devil ”
Let me know !
Steve Lawson, John Macarthur, Alistair Begg, Dr. James White, Mark Dever, Voddie Baucham, Phil Johnson, J.D. Hall, Sinclair Ferguson, Michael Horton, R.C. Sproul, Conrad Mbewe, Art Azudia, S.Lewis Johnson, Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms, Chris Rosebrough – all very good teachers.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“I have noted your comments and would like to hear who you believe is a quality bible teacher on the scene today covering a wide array of subjects.
Jacob never backs away from a debate.”
Well we often promote solid Christian teachers. However, it would help us to know what you are looking for. Are you Baptist? Pentecostal? Reformed? Lutheran? Charismatic?
If you are Charismatic: Matt Slick.
If you are Reformed Baptist: James White, Phil Johnson or JD Hall.
If you are Lutheran: Todd Wilkins or Chris Rosebrough.
If you are Presbyterean: Carl Trueman
They wont be tricky and hide in ambiguity with what they believe. They are upfront, safe and predictable. What you see and hear is what you get.
They understand and faithfully preach the bible. They understand and faithfully preach the gospel. They understand and faithfully stick to the biblical duties, guidelines and protocol of a minister.
They are not ashamed of the gospel and have proven to defend Christ’s sheep by naming names and presenting their cases biblically.
Of course, no one is perfect. So even these men encourage you to keep them accountable to the bible if they err.
Others you may like are Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Martyn Lloyd Jones, Leonard Ravenhill, Paul Washer, Alistair Begg and Todd Friel.
None deviate from the central teachings of Christianity and are careful with their endorsements.
Ziggy – you can freely subscribe to an excellent teaching podcast on iTunes from Wayne Grudem, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Grudem) a very popular theologian with both charismatic and reformed believers.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/wayne-grudems-systematic-theology/id322844869?mt=2
ziggy
yes i know Jacob Prash of Moriel Ministries, he lives in Maidenhead Berkshire England.
he travels all around the world.
i have been listening to him for so many years, he even had a word for Calvary Chapel this year. when founding pastor Church Smith died.
i was just saying it generally. Jacob is one of the very few, yes we are all disciples of jesus christ.
and yes we should all be furfilling the great commission.
i was talking about, where have all the really powerful gospel preachers gone?
yes ive heard Jacob rip into Hillsong HTB holy trinity brompton KT kensington temple and Vineyard.
he was really against the torronto blessing, which came out of the Vineyard church.
Jacob Prasch also said in one of his sermons, that Hillsong is worshipping worship.
that was the most funniest thing i have ever heard.
mrhatch : thats funny !
Jacob Prasch also said, ” the next time Benny Hinn brings prophecy,, Jacob was going to duck for cover !
“I have noted your comments and would like to hear who you believe is a quality bible teacher on the scene today covering a wide array of subjects.”
Well, here’s one way of looking at that question:
“Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?…” *1 Corinthians 1:11, 12*
Some of you may feel offended that i have compared you to those rather carnal Corinthians, in that they were divided over the various visiting ministries that came their way from time to time. It can happen so easily, even unwittingly., but usually happens to young believers, who may feel a bit insecure in the absence of their favourite teacher (with their pet doctrines in tow).
This has a much wider application in the modern day church though. There are literally hundreds of thousands of teachers, pastors and evangelists who are available in various capacities (local or travelling) amongst the western believers, Most of them are the “unknowns”, but even an unknown can cause some problems from time to time, in that they may have a different take on the same subject matter.
Eschatology is one area (although it is not essential to salvation to be correct in any point in that area,) another would be full immersion baptism/baptismal regeneration, and yet again the cessationist/continuationist debate. Many of these teachers/pastors/evangelists may have the basics down pat.
They may even agree on many or even most things, but the areas on which they disagree, are often the same areas wherein they have been to “indoctrination school” (Bible school) and have been taught very strongly the experiences and opinions of others, and have also been taught how to successfully twist the scriptures in order to convince the crowd and carry the denominational slant forward.
I am all for sound doctrine and yes, we do need a few theologians dotted around the countryside, just to ensure that God’s word is held in balance and not left off to one side when important issues spring up. I am not sure that sound doctrine is arrived at by discerning the dregs of what happened way back in ‘revival times’ or even when the Reformers first started getting their act together centuries ago.
Jesus taught us that when the Spirit of truth came, He would lead us into all truth, because He would speak of the things concerning Christ, not of Himself. An overemphasis on the holy Spirit and His gifts, tends to leave Christ out of the central position within the Church that God has ordained for Him.
Placing Christ in the centre, and denying the legitimate operations of the Holy Spirit would seem equally detrimental to the health and growth of the Church at large (not the fake one – the real one!) Deny them if you will, but I and many others have seen and operated gifts of the Spirit, while others have looked on and mocked us, while pushing their own dead forms of Churchianity.
Unity of the body of Christ is something that only the Lord can achieve. It cannot be achieved by Ecumenical movements, Hillsong, C3 or any other man made movement. It cannot be achieved while ever believers choose to stay in that carnal state, and allow their churchmen/leaders to divide the flock for their own pride, ego and sordid gain.
That’s why I can’t endorse Prasch or many that we have dished up to us today, as church leaders/teachers/pastors. They are, for the most part, the products of these indoctrination schools, and do not have anything fresh as revealed in the word of God by the Spirit of God, for the church.
I hope this all makes sense to you as I wish to offend no one, but merely to share what I feel it is within the overall picture of the state of the church. I’m not saying that we don’t need leaders, but we certainly don’t need Emergent/NAR/Liberal/New Age or Ecumenical phonies in the church…
Thor : mrhatch asked a question as to ” who is really preaching the gospel today ? ”
I stated that all believers should be preaching the gospel.
I felt he wanted to know who was a good teacher like David Wilkerson { who btw, has question marks on some of his prophecies }.
I suggested Jacob Prasch because of his Jewish background and understanding of Hebrew.
Jesus and Paul warned us of wolves IN the church.
I feel its healthy to be a Berean and see if these things are so in what teachers are saying.
Paul himself spent a great deal of time bringing correction in his letters and naming false teachers.
I want to know what people are teaching and why they teach that way.
We are not to be ignorant of the enemies devices.
2 Thes 2 tells of the delusion that God sends for those who do not seek the truth.
I believe the unity Paul referred to was in respect of sound doctrine.
Yes relational unity is good too , but if the foundations be destroyed , what will the righteous do ?
In Islam , there is little or no scrutiny on what they teach amongst themselves .
In Christianity , I believe it healthy to question what teachers are saying.
Also , you just don’t have the time or space in a post to put forward a full position on some matters.
This site has questioned the teachings of Brian Houston…he needs to be exposed !
@ziggy – yes, I fully agree with you that Brian Houston is the focus here, and he certainly needs to be exposed! I and others here long before me have puffed ourselves out doing so!
My point is, that no matter how popular or correct a teacher/preacher may be, they can (as in the case of Corinth) form factions within the church. This is not how mature believers should behave. While it is not wrong to have a preference, to form a faction around a preference will certainly divide some sheep off from others. Those who seek to deliberately exploit this situation, can look a lot like a wolf… particularly if they presume to devour the sheep’s time, talents, energy and money!
Paul’s whole point is that while these travelling ministries were vital to the health and growth of that church, everyone who wanted to mature in their walk with Christ, had to “outgrow” their dependency on individuals – they had to learn to rely on the Lord day to day – to be lead by the Holy Spirit, in conjunction with God’s word.
Each ministry who comes to a local flock of sheep will add to their walk, if they minister truth to them. Those who are unsaved or living sinful lives will repent, those who are weak and fearful will become strong. Those who are in error will be corrected – we hope and pray for them and the rest is up to the Lord.
As for Jacob Prasch railing against ANYONE who disagrees with him (and this has been the case on many occasions, not just where he is exposing error in the ranks of proven false prophets,) discounts him from the eldership.
An elder must be above reproach and not be a ‘striker’ or a ‘brawler’ (= railer) so let’s not confuse Biblical rebuke, with those kinds of uncalled for attacks against those who have innocently sought to correct or oppose Jacob Prasch’s own views.
See this Bible Gateway link for the details:
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/1Tim/Leadership-Qualifications
a friend of mine who used to design Jacob Prasch.
Moriel Ministries website. fell out with him when he had a go at him of selling his merchandise.
he said to me why would God give revelation to these preachers, when they only want to sell it.
acts 8:18-20
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
and I agree with him, why would God reveal anything fresh to people who will sell his name down the line like Judas did with Jesus.
his website can be found here http://www.thendtimecall.com
1 Corinthians 9:14-18
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
and what are these pastors doing today, selling the name of Jesus to make their name known for their own glory.
2 Corinthians 11:7-8
Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
God makes it very clear in his word.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
mrhatch : I agree with you that no one should merchandise the sheep.
thor : I do not follow Jacob Prasch.
Lets remember though all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I am not a follower of Jacob Prasch.
I have learnt so much from many teachers who I have come to admire even when they have faults.
John Macarthur and Jacob do differ but you could do a lot worse than those two in general.
I follow the bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Every one associated in ministry will have fans and foes , thats a given .
At a funeral I hear ” He never said a bad word about anyone ” and I think ” what world was he living in ? ”
Did not take long before Cain did the unthinkable to Able.
Most of the disciples Jesus picked had flaws in their character.
I like to think of some people as ” rough diamonds .”
Our Christology as to who we think Jesus is underlines our salvation on the essential primary aspects of doctrine.
To know Christ and to follow Him and His commandments is vital.
Iron sharpens iron and whilst I do not agree with everything said on this site or who people are affiliated with in respect of churches they attend I believe the site to be worthwhile.
But again, we all stuff up and no one is perfect in speech.
God looks at the heart .
And yep , He has picked some ” rough diamonds ! “
“Thor : I do not follow Jacob Prasch.
Lets remember though all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I am not a follower of Jacob Prasch.
I have learnt so much from many teachers who I have come to admire even when they have faults.
John MacArthur and Jacob do differ but you could do a lot worse than those two in general.
I follow the bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit.”
Of course you do – that’s why you gave Jacob Prasch such a good plug – because you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and the Bible… 🙂
Look Ziggy – I know that no one is perfect in terms of public ministry, or their private lives. Midrashic concepts have often lead people to embrace Hebrew Roots, and while I can appreciate the distinctions between the HRM and those claiming to be Messianic Jews, there still seems to be much confusion on the level of the average believer. In my experience, many people cannot distinguish the two groups at all.
We already have HRM people on the streets of Brisbane once or twice a month, handing out their literature, inviting people to their works based/Christ denying meetings. We do not need any more confusion or conflation between the two groups, and therefore, I cannot endorse JP at all, although I tend to agree with some of Churchwatcher’s summation elsewhere on this thread.
Many people still think the Jacob Prasch’s ministry supports HRM in part, although JP has publicly denied this many times. He still appears to associate with people who have been under close scrutiny as to their beliefs and practices – Chuck Smith et al.
While I will not condemn the man out of hand, I believe that there is enough evidence online, for people to at least keep him at arm’s length – for now.
Sorry for being off topic Churchwatcher, but this matter really needs to be put to rest.
I heard of 4 of the names in Church watchers list
Steve Lawson
John Macarthur
Wayne Grudem
Chris Rosebrough
I will check the rest out.
churchwatcher : Have I been ex communicated ? Can’t get on the site.
I have just replied to another post as AB
Which post AB? I can see an approved comment on the “Media and Communities…” article.
thor ; I follow God and the bible and examine my heart continually .
I do not follow Jacob Prasch. I listen to his sermons.
I listen to many teachers.
I have been to Israel and find Jacob knows the country and history very well.
In my view anyone who does not have support for Israel concerns me.
Sometimes it what people do not say and I believe there are too many ignoring the biblical prophecies concerning Israel .
Biblical prophecy is a powerful tool in proving the existence of God.
I disagreed with Jacob twice and wrote to him.
He replied quickly and in one case retracted what he printed .
Have u written to him to express your concerns ?
I also like the way he has confronted the mega churches like Hillsong and the false teachers.
Remember Jesus and Paul got up close and confronted people face to face.
They were in disputes regularly.
Some disputes turn pear shape unintentionally.Its the nature of the battle.
Jesus said he came to bring a sword into families.
I feel it right to give credit where it is due, but if I see error I will speak up.
This site rightfully exposes error and has also provided teachers to consider.
God bless !
well that’s all very good ‘Ziggy’ but you didn’t respond to any of the points I raised in my last post…
@ Thor, One could assume you have a slight attitude problem that needs to be checked at the door…
@Biblios – you seem to like interfering in other people’s online posts – no attitude intended…
I tried to reply to “thor” above on this site.
thanks
Your comments seem to be coming through. And you’re definitely not “excommunicated”.
Thanks churchwatcher , very good of you to check it out !