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bobbie houston, Brian Houston, Costello, cult, CWC, Good Weekend, Hillsong, Hillsong cult, houston, Phillip Powell, Powell, SMH, sydney morning herald, Tim Costello
Brian Houston recently revealed just how badly the Good Weekend affected him with their article, ‘The lord’s profits‘. Right after the Royal Commission in October, Brian Houston stated in his sermon that Sunday that the below article was written in 1994.
Later in another sermon on the same topic, he stated it was written in 2002. He links the article being written in these times because he says that his church finally grew to a noticeable size, therefore he received media criticism.
This is not true. ‘The lord’s profits’ was published in January 2003.
Before reading the article, see his response to the article in the video (or read the transcript underneath):
“Don’t let anyone put shame on you. Way back in 2002, this building where I’m standing right now was brand new. And there’s something about us getting this stake in the ground that put Hillsong above the radar. We were known because of our worship all around the world. But in secular Australia, we were well and truly under the surface. My next door neighbour’s probably didn’t know we existed.
And then suddenly we came up above the surface. And I’ll never forget it because [shifts uncomfortably] at that time, what was apparently the largest read publication in Australia was the magazine in the middle of the newspaper. And one particular Saturday, that magazine come out and the whole front cover was a full length picture of Bobbie and I. And it said, ‘The lord’s profits’. But it wasn’t spelt P-R-O-P-H-E-T-S. They- kind of got the spelling wrong.
And uh- I remember feeling so- ashamed. So embarrassed because we were in Bondi that Saturday morning and if you know anything about Bondi, it’s the beach. There’s the cafes. Everyone’s out. Alfresco dining on the- on the pavements. And so what everyone reads the same Saturday paper. A long slow Saturday morning everyone’s reading the Saturday paper and everywhere I went I was thinking- c- I could see- see the- see I was there. I could see us there. And I could see us there.
I remember walking along feeling so humiliated, so embarrassed. The article was several pages. It was a misrepresentation. It was a nasty article. Completely misrepresented our motives and so on.
And I just remembered- I’ll never forget that feeling. And so ultimately though we went into a cafe ourselves to get breakfast. And we’ve been in there lots of times. And the waiter- I asked for an orange juice. And he comes out and he brings me this orange juice like you’ve never seen. Instead of just a normal orange juice, he had all this garnishing and decoration on the top and all the beautiful things on it. Different fruit around it and all these other things. I’ll never forget it- and he just looked at me and said, “You’re a good guy”.
And he spoke into my soul. It’s amazing what God can use. Everyone else around the place reading their papers going [Houston imitates readers pointing at Houston and examining picture in paper].
I was back in Bondi yesterday. I refused to allow shame to rule me. [Applause] I refused to allow shame to be put on me. I walked down the street, walked along the beach. I was meditating on my message today. And that’s where I love to do that so- I just walked along looking straight ahead not feeling arrogant. But refusing to allow someone else’s sin to become my shame. [Applause]
Source: Hillsong Church, Hillsong Church – 12 October 2014, YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq7M0JWw9dc, 42:47-46:34, Published 11/10/2014. (Accessed 25/11/2014.)
In due time, we will look more at this message to expose the lies and manipulative techniques Brian Houston use to brainwash his congregation to shun criticism with the evidence that emerged from the Royal Commission. In the mean time, we would greatly appreciate it if people could transcribe the above message.
The SMH reports,
The lord’s Profits

Hallelujah … Prime Minister John Howard at Hillsong last year and right, the church’s senior pastors Brian and Bobbie Houston.
The music is catchy, the mood euphoric and the message perfect for a material age: believe in God and you’ll be rewarded in this life as well as the next. Greg Bearup reports.
A sexy young Christian, a walkie-talkie clipped to her hipsters, greets us on our walk from the car park. “Hiya, howya doin’?” she says, with a flick of her mane and a smile. “Welcome to God’s house – what an awesome day!” She points us in the direction of God’s pad, a massive Olympic-style stadium up on the hill, and returns to conducting traffic with a fluoro stick.
All around, beaming young folk (and they are mainly young) are decked out in their coolest threads – no Amish-skirted Christians here. Hundreds walk with us, and beneath the awnings and in the foyer of the building – all tubular steel and glass – thousands are milling excitedly. By the end of the weekend, almost 12,000 people will have made this walk. Once inside, the first thing the faithful strike is not a crucifix or stained-glass window (the building is devoid of Christian symbolism), but a vast bookshop, of sleek frosted glass and wood, where dozens wait by the till for books and tapes and CDs – or, as they like to call them here at Hillsong Church, “Christian resources” – from around the world. Most prominent, and with almost half the shop to themselves, are the titles by Brian Houston and his wife Bobbie, Hillsong’s senior pastors.
As 6pm approaches, the crowd spills into the church, a massive 3500-seat auditorium in Sydney’s Baulkham Hills. Australia’s newest, wealthiest and largest single church, it holds almost twice as many people as that city’s St Mary’s Cathedral, its closest competitor (which has total weekend attendances of fewer than 2000). They are crowds no one can afford to ignore and, the day after he returned from visiting the scene of the Bali bombings in October, Prime Minister Howard put aside his war on terror to open this house of worship.
Today a 12-piece band with five back-up singers and a choir of 50-odd youngsters literally bounce into action. Behind them, three massive screens hang from the walls – the middle one morphs through different shades of red and blue, only the message, “Glory to God”, remaining constant. The momentum builds with the tempo of the band as the packed stadium sings along to the words flashed up on the screens, swaying in a one-armed, open-palm salute to the band, to the Lord.
After 20 minutes, the warm-up pastor takes to the stage, chiming in with the band – “Come on, church, you can groove” – and then segues into his spiel. Our God, he says,
is a God who delivers miracles, a totally awesome God. He rattles off stories, true stories, from this very congregation, of cancers cured, of cripples healed, of sinners saved. Why, the Lord even saw his way to finding $4000 for one student to pay his fees at the Hillsong Bible college. The congregation hoot and clap; a young fellow beside me has his eyes closed and as each miracle is proclaimed he shouts, “Amen, man. Awesome.”
But you, too, should honour the Lord, the pastor tells his flock, and He will deliver these miracles, because the Bible says so, right here in Proverbs, chapter 3, which says that “if you honour the Lord with your possessions, and with the fruits of your increase, your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will overflow with new wine”. He makes the point numerous times, lets it sink in, then informs the throng that credit card facilities are available, and cheques should be made out to Hillsong. “Amen,” shouts the pastor, thumping the air with his fists. “Amen, let’s pass those buckets along.”
And the faithful oblige – last year they filled the Hillsong buckets to the tune of $10 million. The church’s music arm also bought in a tidy tax-free $8 million, and one of its albums, Blessed, debuted at No4 in the pop charts, above Shakira, and stayed there for weeks. Hillsong has bought into medical centres. Its Bible college has close to 1700 full- and part-time students, some paying annual fees of more than $4000. It has a staff of almost 200, including 70 pastors. It has built a state-of-the-art conference centre-cum-church worth $25 million. No fewer than five television cameras are mounted in the auditorium; the services are recorded and then televised in more than 80 countries.
Let’s not be coy, Hillsong is not a church that is afraid of money – its spiritual leader, Brian Houston, is also the author of You Need More Money: Discovering God’s Amazing Financial Plan for Your Life. Is that what makes this the seemingly fastest-growing Christian church in Australia? The census reveals that while millions identify as Catholic, Anglican or other Protestant denominations, few of them actually go to church. There are, for example, 3.9 million Anglicans, but only 180,000 attend church. (The Anglicans are like South Sydney rugby league club supporters – plenty of guernseys, but hardly any go to the games.) The Catholics are way out in front with 875,000 attendees from their 4.7 million flock. But with almost 200,000 people attending Pentecostal services each weekend around the country, they have nudged ahead of the Anglicans. The Pentecostals have a truancy rate of almost nil. What brand of God are they selling that sees the Almighty walking off the shelves, when the traditional churches struggle to give Him away?
Brian Houston, 48, saunters over to greet me, a tall, tanned man with a deep, radio man’s drawl, and a silver and gold Breitling watch shimmering on his wrist. The pastor drives, among other vehicles, a Harley-Davidson Fatboy that a friend from overseas gave him. After emigrating from New Zealand, he and his wife, Bobbie, started this church in Baulkham Hills almost 20 years ago, preaching to a couple of dozen people in a hired school hall. Brian’s father, Frank, had already set up a similar fundamentalist Pentecostal church (which has since joined with Hillsong) in the inner-Sydney suburb of Waterloo. Brian grew up with the church, while Bobbie got saved and “met Jesus” at the Auckland Town Hall at the age of 15. The couple met at church camp when Bobbie bought Brian an ice-cream (“He was the first boy I ever kissed,” says Bobbie with a girlish giggle. “Can you believe I’m telling you this?”), were married when Bobbie was 19 and are now Hillsong’s senior pastors.
They work out regularly and look like an advertiser’s dream couple. Bobbie, 45, is blonde, busty and beautiful, and speaks in an airy, suburban earth-mother tone – part Phoebe from Friends, part Kath & Kim.
When asked to explain their roles in the church, Bobbie says pleasantly: “We are seen as one entity but obviously our roles will differ in that we kinda, we are united in this together so we are not afraid of that, yeah, so, so, we are not a kingdom divided against ourselves. So, we are yoked together in this, I mean, they are biblical words, we are yoked together, obviously his roles, I defer to him, I respect his role. Do you know what I mean?”
Brian and I leave Bobbie and go for a drive.
So why does he think the church has been so successful? “I think the biggest issue is relevance, I really do,” he says, as we tour around the bland suburbs – row upon row of enormous, identical houses – of the Hills District, which surrounds his church. “We are scratching people where they are itching.” This is the nearest thing Australia has to a Bible belt. Houston says that when he and Bobbie set out to build a church, he wanted to build one that he and his family would want to attend, with good music, good sermons and a positive message.
So, at Hillsong services, the music is modern and uplifting and the presentation theatrical. The show stopper is the communal baptism, held every few weeks. The giant stage rolls back and beneath is a baptismal pool. The faithful line up at the side to be dunked, fully clothed, while the onlookers cheer and clap.
Then, there’s the message, which is simple and alluring. It says that if you embrace this brand of God you will be rewarded financially and spiritually in this life, as well as the next. It is religion for our material age. And there, as an example of what is possible, is the handsome, charismatic pastor, his bubbly wife and their three beautiful kids (Joel, 23, the oldest, is lead singer in the Hillsong rock band). All this comes with Brian’s guarantee – from More Money – that “anyone who puts the Kingdom of God first (rich or poor) can expect bible economics to work in their life NOW”.
Many of the young people I meet at the services volunteer their stories of financial success since joining Hillsong. “I was living in a housing commission house, working in a factory job and struggling to pay my bills,” says Brian Griffiths, aged in his early twenties and still sweating from dancing in the bleachers. “Since I started coming [in 1999], great things have happened.” He got a job selling insurance over the phone, with someone he met through the church. “God made me meet him.” He is more than happy to give
10 per cent of his wage back, as most are. “Granted, many people have a life that’s going great without God, yet I think that God probably had a whole lot more in mind for them.”
“If you believe in Jesus,” Houston tells me, “He will reward you here [on earth] as well [as in Heaven].” It is this prosperity gospel teaching that puts him at odds with people like the Reverend Tim Costello, the former head of the Baptist Union of Australia.
“The quickest way to degrade the gospel,” says Costello, “is to link it with money and the pursuit of money. It is the total opposite of what Jesus preached. These people have learnt nothing from the mistakes made by the American televangelists.”
Not so, says Houston. When Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, he didn’t mean rich Christians, because all you need is “God as your foremost priority. Jesus talks constantly of people’s attitude to money but he never talks against money.”
Costello, says Houston, “likes what we do generally” but has a problem with Hillsong’s success. He, like those from some of the more traditional churches, is simply jealous of it, Houston tells me. “The irony is, Tim Costello is a pretty successful guy himself. The big difference between us is that I like to teach other people to be successful and not just enjoy the success myself.”
Hillsong, he says, has moved with the times, while the old churches are stuck in the 19th century. “What good is a vow of poverty?” he asks. “A person who has more is able to help more. That’s what we are all about, giving people a handout.” The multi-million-dollar church’s charitable arm, Hillsong Emerge, according to ASIC documents, has an annual budget of just a little over $400,000.
That’s not to say that Houston’s views on some other matters aren’t conservative. He believes in speaking in tongues. He would like to see creationism taught in schools and abortion banned. Homosexuals are, of course, unwelcome, but Houston says he’s not a Fred Nile-type fanatic on these matters. Picketing outside abortion clinics achieves little; a more pro-active approach is to help teenage girls through their pregnancies. The church partly funds a hostel, Mercy Ministries, for young pregnant women and other troubled girls (there’s another for troubled boys at Bankstown) who can live there free for a year, on the proviso that they attend church. Another of the Hillsong Emerge projects, Young and Gorgeous, sees young Emerge women going into schools to teach 12- and
13-year-old girls about skin care and make-up, to help them learn, an Emerge woman told me, “that each and every one of them is unique and precious”. Houston takes me for a drive past the youth hostel, in a bush setting near his church, and then on to a medical centre the church has bought in Baulkham Hills (they own another at Blacktown). It is all part of healing people “body, mind and spirit”, he says, explaining the Hillsong approach.
The medical centres are small, but with plans for expansion. And while they may be helping the converted, they’re also causing ripples among those outside Hillsong. Local doctors are angry that they will have to compete against a business that is exempt from all the normal business taxes – such as payroll tax – just because it is a religious organisation.
It is a matter the AMA intends to scrutinise.
Max Wallace, a sociologist at the Australian National University, is writing a book,
The Purple Economy, about the tax-free godsend enjoyed by the Australian churches. He says that while the traditional churches are “immensely wealthy”, Australians had better get used to the “astronomical wealth growth”
of young, corporate churches such as Hillsong, which haven’t the burden of maintaining ageing churches and small congregations (some don’t even have the burden of charity). New churches are also moving into a host of new business ventures that have nothing
to do with religion – turf farms, fruit juice manufacturing, furniture making – often sending their competitors broke along the way.
Tim Costello wants to know how much of the Hillsong wealth is going to Brian and Bobbie. “The churches have an enormously privileged position in society – not only do they not pay tax, but they are exempt from many of the fringe benefit rules as well. As a result, they need to be open and fully accountable. Anyone can walk into my church and find out exactly how much I earn, what car I drive, whatever, including any other associated monies I might earn from being a minister. I would like to ask the same of Hillsong.”
So I do. Brian Houston’s open, good-guy demeanour disappears. No, he will not tell me what he or Bobbie earns. “All you guys [the media] want to know about is the money,”
he says. “You don’t want to know about the church.” Well, it’s a bit like walking into Rose Hancock’s house and not noticing the chandeliers – the money at Hillsong just leaps out at you.
Houston says that while he draws a wage, he donates it back to the church. “I want to make it clear that I cost this church nothing, I want that on the record.” He earns some of his money, he says, as a property developer, “being a silent partner with a couple of guys from the church in building developments”, but he gets “the vast majority” of his money from overseas speaking engagements at other charismatic churches. He and Bobbie also get the royalties from those “Christian resources” out the front of the church.
Phillip Powell, a Pentecostal preacher and a former general secretary of the Assemblies
of God (the umbrella group of which Houston is now president), says Houston’s overseas speaking engagements are at churches whose own senior pastors are “on the circuit”. Powell, who has set up a “watchdog ministry”, Christian Witness Ministries, in part to monitor Hillsong, says, “They get paid huge amounts of money to speak at each other’s churches. The money goes to Brian, but his profile comes from Hillsong.” It is a bit like the Pope charging for speaking engagements, and then keeping the cash. (Houston says Powell’s sentiments are “pitiful comments from a pitiful man who knows nothing of Hillsong or of me”.)
The Hillsong church structure is tightly controlled. The general manager, Brian Aghajanian (also an elder), says the elders are nominated “by Brian or the other elders”. No elections? “No, we feel that people might stand who don’t have a great understanding of the way the church works or have the same vision we have for the church,” Aghajanian says.
What we do know is that Houston wears a watch worth thousands of dollars, he owns an enormous house overlooking a bush valley, in a suburb of other enormous houses, at Glenhaven. He also owns a picturesque spread on the Hawkesbury River, near Windsor, just west of Sydney, gets paid handsomely to speak overseas and is a property developer – and he’s not ashamed of any of it.
“Look,” he says, “I can tell you that if I was in business, and held this sort of position, I would be earning three times as much. I don’t do it for the money.”
So, you couldn’t see Jesus running into Hillsong and overturning the cash registers,
as he famously did with the money changers in the temple? “Absolutely not,” he says. “Absolutely not. Because the spirit of those people was … the house of God wasn’t even about God any more. It was about, you know, it had become a marketplace inside the temple – it wasn’t about Christian resources, resources that are helping people. It [the books and tapes and CDs] are not just about making money, it is about putting tools in people’s hands.
[But] I have no problem if it makes a profit.”
So, what exactly is in those Christian resources? One particularly irresistible title
is Bobbie’s three-tape boxed set Kingdom Women Love Sex ($22, also available on CD). In it, Bobbie explains why it is important for Christians to be good at “it”. “We need to
be good at sex ourselves so that if the world happens to come knocking we can tell the story of God in our lives,” Bobbie says, on the tape. “Without being lurid or untruthful
– hello! – we can say [she whispers], ‘I have a great marriage and a great sex life’ – wink wink, nudge nudge. Yeah, truly.”
Bobbie also offers some practical advice.
Fat is out. Do some exercise. “If I carry weight I feel like a retard … How are you going to do anything to surprise your man when you need a hydraulic crane just to turn over in bed?” Have plastic surgery, if it makes you feel better and it is for the right reasons, and “girls, pelvic floor exercises – can you believe I am saying this? – you know, I have heard that orgasm is not as strong if you are really sloppy in that area”.
As Bobbie says, “When you are doing what is correct in God there is a protection over your life. Like – hello! – it is just there. So it is a very powerful thing. Amen. Yeah, fully.”
There have been some dramas in the House of Camelot in the past few years. Houston
had to sack one of his senior preachers and good friends, Pat Mesiti, after it was revealed he’d been visiting prostitutes. And then Brian’s father, former minister Frank Houston, confessed to being a pedophile.
Finding out his father had abused a child back in New Zealand was, Houston tells me, “like the jets flying into the twin towers of my soul”. It was, understandably, one of
the hardest issues he has ever had to deal with. “Basically I received a complaint, so
I confronted my father and he admitted it.” Houston removed his father from all roles in the church, but did not contact police in New Zealand because the victim was old enough to do that himself. He said that he was candid with his congregation, although he has been criticised for not acting quickly enough.
“I told our church what had happened [several months after he found out], but as soon as I found out I told the elders of this church and the Assemblies of God,” Houston says. “To my congregation, when I told them, I used words like predator and sexual abuse and so on – I did not try to hide it.”
It is a matter that appears unlikely to go away, and Houston tells me that, since the initial allegation was made public, other alleged victims have come forward. Good Weekend understands that another alleged male victim of his father is “extremely unhappy” with his treatment by the church and is currently considering civil action.
Bobbie says that the sexual abuse claims were the hardest thing her husband has ever had to confront. “But the leader in him rose and I think that is what endeared the congregation to us. This issue is rampant through society and you don’t have to be Blind Willy to see that – sorry, blind Freddy, I always get my sayings wrong – but as a church we are dealing with those issues.”
Phillip Powell, the watchdog, says he doesn’t believe Brian Houston has dealt adequately with a whole range of issues within his church regarding accountability, and says he will continue to monitor the work of Hillsong. “There are alarm bells and people need to ring them,” he says.
On one of the Sundays I attend a Hillsong service, Anne Luckwell, a 36-year-old administration officer with the Harvey Norman retail chain, is excitedly waiting to be baptised. She joined the church six months ago and is now ready to “dedicate my life to the Lord”. She has a child and has been through a rough time. “I lived with a man for 15 years and we were splitting up – he said he was not going to give me anything from the house [he owned] in the settlement.” She says that now, since she found Hillsong, she has come to an agreement with her former partner for a share of the house. It has as much to do with the law as it has with the Lord, but still she attributes the agreement to Hillsong. I call her up a few days later to see how she feels, post-baptism. “Not too good, actually,” she croaks. “I’ve got the flu. I think it’s because of the wet hair.” Still, she says, she’ll be back in church next Sunday, ready to hear the word of Brian – and, of course, willing to give in order to receive.
Source: By Greg Bearup, The lord’s profits, Sydney Morning Herald, http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/28/1043804401241.html, Published 30/01/2003. (Accessed 06/01/2015.)
I would like to apologise to all people struggling with their weight, to all disabled people, and to all women – for the insensitive, dis functional and disgraceful words spoken by Bobbie Houston. “You need to be good at it” ???? Isn’t that something you say to a prostitute???? This is the “godly” advice given by airhead Houston!!!! Very pathetic
Very true Annette. Jesus Christ calls ALL who are willing…regardless of weight, skin colour, age, height, or anything else..as long as they obey His Word.
This 58 year old ‘pastor’ spins out her tripe with YOUNG people attending hillsong. Parents should be very wary of this nonsensical parody of REAL Christian teaching. Why would ‘the world come knocking’ to ask her of her sex life?
Why is it ‘important’ [to bobbie and hillsong] to be ‘good at it’ when the Bible has no such importance attached to the subject ? Does bobbie teach her daughters and grand-daughters this trash? Frank houston might be impressed. Bizarre.
Roberta ‘bobbie’ houston: “I always get my sayings wrong.”
Oh yes indeed, couldn’t have said it better myself.
Back to the topic..it just proves that brian and bobbie consider all their imaginings and attitudes as Biblical..approved from the mouth of Christ Himself. Nothing could be further from the truth, and boy, will they be surprised on Judgement Day!
As for brian houston : “[But] I have no problem if it makes a profit.”
Try and find THAT quote in the Holy Bible! Disgusting.
It’s not that Roberta Bobbie Houston is saying that Jesus doesn’t accept fat, “retarded”, “no-good-in-bed”??????? People. It’s just the fact that she is giving “advice” in the name of God which is nothing but worldly, ungodly, dysfunctional and pathetic!
And I don’t have a problem that she is 58 – God uses people at any age. And I don’t have problem that she is a pastor, as long as she only pastors women and stays under the authority and covering of her husband, which I’m sure she does.
Bobbie has already made it clear she holds that particular scriptural injunction about women not having authority over men in contempt. And Hillsong often allows visiting women ‘preach’ to men. Joyce Meyer being an example.
I will agree to disagree with you, Churchwatcher. Anyhow, let’s keep to the topic.
She does not have authority over men, she’s under the authority of her husband
Sorry Annette – this is an important issue. Bobbie does not operate under the authority of her husband, if that’s the case she would be silent but unfortunately Brian is unbiblical, allowing her to usurp authority. Not only Bobbie, but Christine Caine as well. Regardless of topic, this issue cuts right across the issues addressed here on this site.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-bobbie-houston-explains-why-hillsong-church-does-not-sideline-the-girls-128563/
Women don’t have to be silent! That’s crazy!!! The scripture that says women need to be silent was addressing a problem that they were having in that particular church at that time. Anyhow as I said I will agree to disagree with you. I’m not going to continue to argue with you on this subject.
You’re not arguing with the churchwatcher, your argument is with God’s Word.
http://carm.org/women-in-ministry
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 “As in all the churches of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says . . . it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church”
ALL the churches of the saints. It isn’t a cultural issue, it is God’s standard for all churches.
Churchwatcher – is that why the Holy Spirit gave Phillip the Evangelist’s four daughters the gift of prophecy? So they could remain silent??? Acts 21:9. That question is not satisfied by the complimentarian view.
Is that also the reason why Phoebe, the deaconess from the church at Cenchrea was given the letter to read to the Roman church? So she could remain silent while reading the letter?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_%28biblical_figure%29
The order that Paul gave to the Corinthians was to stamp out disorder – not to silence women from all ministry. Why would Priscilla and her husband Aquila teach Apollos “the more perfect way” if women were forbidden to teach and were to remain silent?
The “speaking in church” that Paul was referring to at Corinth, was not teaching or preaching, it was disruptive whispering and/or gossiping – that was what was disorderly and Paul had THAT as a standard – not the total silencing of women.
“2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” Philipians 4:2, 3,
How could those two women “labour in the Gospel” while remaining silent?
I do not subscribe to the rantings of Bobbie Houston, Chris Pringle, Caroline Leaf or Christine Caine as they are obviously “Christian Feminists” who are out of line and therefore also out of place – but that does not excuse the Pharisaical stance taken by some churches and many cults, on the second class citizenship of women…
On the evidence of all the relevant relevant scriptures, there is no clear mandate for the total silencing of women in church meetings – none!
Thor – go through the link here:
http://carm.org/women-in-ministry
If you can provide biblical refutation to anything posted there, I would be happy to see it.
@Churchwatcher – try answering the questions I posed first. I am not of the Reformed persuasion, neither do I subscribe to the complimentarian viewpoint. I would also add that while the role of elders/pastors is clearly defined for men, what does the scripture mean when it clearly states that “they two (man and woman in marriage) shall become one flesh”?
Does that mean that the wife is a part of her husband’s ministry, or that when it comes to ministry, the marriage relationship is somehow or other put on hold?
I understand you viewpoint to a degree, but that doesn’t mean that I have to agree with it. Also, the wayward “teachings” of those women mentioned in my first post above in no way disqualifies sensible, balanced women from exercising a role in church meetings.
How could Philip’s daughters prophecy while “remaining silent” – that is the height of stupidity, to even countenance such an impossible situation wherein almighty God gives gifts to women – and then tells them to shut up come Sunday morning!!!
No offence meant there, but it really does look silly to hold that view… I promise that I will take a look at CARM’s website.
Just FYI Thor, here is an extract from CARM. by Matt Slick
Another argument raised by the egalitarians is to say that since there were female deacons, i.e., deaconesses as was Phoebe in Rom. 16:1, then it is possible to have been elders and pastors as women also. Some even cite early church literature which has various women deacons mentioned in different contexts. Let’s take a look at both of these arguments.
First of all, the word “deacon” διάκονος (diakonos) and its cognates occur 31 times in the NT and is used in many different ways. Paul calls himself a minister (diakonos) of the gospel in Col. 1:23, 25. Paul went to Jerusalem to serve (diakonos) the saints (Rom. 15:25). Mary spoke to the servants (diakonos) at the wedding in Cana (John 2:5). It is used of serving tables (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2). Jesus came not to be served, but to serve (diakonos), (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Tychicus is a minister (diakonos) of the Lord (Col. 4:7) as is Timotheus (1 Thess. 3:2).
Rom. 16:1 says, “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea.” Many argue that since Pheobe is called a deacon, then it means women are eligible to hold the formal office of deacon. But this is not conclusive at all. Phoebe is simply called a servant (diakonon) which can be rendered differently in different Bibles: “minister” (Darby, YLT), “servant” (ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV), “helper” (NCV), “deacon” (NLT, NRSV), and “deaconess” (RSV).
The term “diakonos” is used of an office with special requirements that women cannot meet. “Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,” (1 Tim. 3:8). And, “Let deacons be husbands of only one wife [lit. one woman man’] and good managers of their children and their own households,” (1 Tim. 3:12). See also Phil. 1:1.
So, we can conclude that there is a broad sense of how the term is used regarding being a servant, a minister, a helper, etc. We can also conclude that there is a special requirement for the office of deacon that limits eligibility to men. This requirement is that deacons be the husband of one wife and good managers of their children and households. Also, we must note that we see the same criteria here as we do for elders and bishops. It is quite apparent that there is a special office of Deacon that is intended for men only.
Still, some egalitarians claim that early church writings show that women held the office of Deaconess within the first few centuries. Even if this is so, and we are not saying it is in any official church office position, each citation would have to be examined in context.
“Ecclesiastical usage institutionalized and narrowed the NT conception. Early non-canonical literature recognizes a class of deacons without specifying their functions (cf. 1 Clement 42; Ignatius, Magnesians 2.1; Trallians 2. 3; 7. 3). Later literature shows the deacons undertaking functions such as attending the sick, which must have been part of Christian diakonia in apostolic times.”1
If the early church did have deaconesses, how were the offices defined? Were they in places of authority and were they teaching? If women held the office, how were they husbands of one wife? Or, as the Scriptures show, were they servants of the church–helping to take care of the needs of God’s people?
Again, even if the early churches actually had women in the office of Deacon, those same churches would have to deal with the issue of the scripture proclaiming the requirement of that office to include being men–the husband of one wife. It would make much more sense to say that deaconesses were seen as servants in the church and were not filling the specific, official church office with its requirement of being males.
In today’s Christian setting, churches define the office of Deacon differently. Some see the deaconate as a service to God’s people while others see it as an office having authority. It would seem that both could be supported in Scripture but the latter definition belongs to men who are the husbands of one wife.
“She is referred to as a ‘deacon’ (in the Greek, there is no distinction between the masculine and feminine forms) of the church in Cenchreae. Despite Phil. 1:1, it is unlikely that this term designates any official position, as in modern ecclesiastical organizations; it may be paraphrased as ‘co-worker in the missionary enterprise.”2
One last thing to think about. It is the way of the world to impose its will upon the church and try to make God’s people conform to its ways. This should never be the case with God’s church. Christians should never wet their fingers, stick them into the air, and see which way the secular wind is blowing so as to appease those outside its doors. Rather, its job is to speak the truth no matter what the world says. We are to do it with gentleness (1 Pet. 3:15), but we are to defend the truth–not compromise its teachings. And, in this case, God has said what he has said. Let his word stand and may those who contradict it answer to God. The deacon is to be a man of dignity (1 Tim. 3:8) just as Paul has stated is the case in the operation of the household of God (1 Tim. 3:15).
Thor – as a former Pentecostal egalitarian, now Reformed complimentarian, I’ve argued on both sides. Your questions are the same ones I put forward. However, there’s a problem in that those questions aren’t about the issue of women having authority over men. There is a biblical structure laid down for the church, and that’s a ‘no-brainer’ for me now. The gifts are distributed throughout the body as He chooses to give them – for the edification of the body. I’d be surprised to see anyone argue against that, I certainly don’t. The link I provided very simply explains and debates the various arguments and I hope you do read it.
Chris – thanks for your thoughtful response – I’ll certainly consider it. Phoebe was the bearer of the letter to the Romans – Paul’s Opus Maxim – and he entrusted it to a woman whom he commended. She would have also had the duty to read it out to the Roman church – that’s not keeping silence in church meetings either.
Churchwatcher – I’m not saying that Philip’s daughters or Paul’s co-workers (Euodia and Syntyche) had authority over men. What I’m saying is that they were not forbidden to speak in church. Certainly in the case of Priscilla and Aquila, the wife was teaching Apollos and was not silent.
I know that people often raise this issue as a ‘furphy’ and they can become antagonistic, belligerent and unteachable, but that is not my purpose here. It seems that there were definitely some prominent women within the circles of the early church, who were recognised as having a gifting/calling/ministry – that much seems plain.
I can accept Chris’s argument that while many women did minister in some capacity, their positions in many cases may not have come about via an official ordination process. However, neither that stance or the more rigid complimentarian stance explains those events of recorded church history.
The fact remains, that women were recognised (by the apostles themselves) as being valuable co-workers. No one is suggesting that the Bible teaches on “women elders” as such (a contradiction in terms, many would argue) but as I stated in my earlier post “they two shall become one flesh” could well mean that a man who is an elder could well have a wife who was one with him in ministry, not just in the marriage.
Consider many Missionary couples, who travel to far flung places – such a wife would an asset rather than a hindrance, and I am yet to hear of any missions minded man who wanted a “silent” wife on the mission field…
You may well counter that “what those people do may seem practical but it is not Biblical” but I would submit to you that on the weight of evidence of women who spoke, prophesied, preached and taught, as listed up above is more of a practical outworking of the Gospel and not disobedience of it.
The woman at the well in Samaria was not silent, neither were the women who came running from Jesus’ empty tomb. Philip’s daughters did prophesy and Paul’s’ two co-workers as named above were not silent either. You cannot preach the Gospel or assist in church meetings without talking at some stage in the proceedings.
Both Corinth and Ephesus were situational and cultural. No other letters by Paul and the other apostles instruct women to remain totally silent. Peter says nothing of it, neither does James, Jude, John or the writer of Hebrews – not another word…
@ Austin, I did not find you refuting 1 Tim 2:12-14.
I do not believe it can be refuted, and that to do so is tantamount to rebelling.
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Why would you argue against this passage? The reasoning given in the passage does not appear to be for a specific fellowship only.
And, if Paul covered it, why should any of the others need to? The others may have accepted what Paul said as enough.
How many times must something “be repeated” to become a valid Scriptural principle? I have a problem with discounting this simply because “it wasn’t repeated often enough in the New Testament.”
Please respond.
Note that Mr. Slick argues this is not situational nor cultural and here is why
http://carm.org/1-tim-212-13-and-women-pastors-and-elders
Note that my 2 comment were directed to @ Thor
Rebelling against who, or what? The New Testament is replete with women exercising a number of different ministries from the Gospels to some of the letters.
As I said, there are a number of examples wherein the women in a given situation were not silent. How do you suppose that Paul would deal with them? Would he accuse Euodia and Syntyche of “rebelling” because they opened their mouths in the cause of the Gospel??? I think not!
Can you imagine the following conversation:
“Paul: Well girls, I’m going to have to fire you from the ministry…
Euodia and Syntyche: Why on earth would yo do that? We thought we were your co-workers in the Gospel
Paul: weeell yes, you were, but I got this blinding revelation yesterday, that women are not allowed to speak in church, so that finishes it for you…” Ridiculous!
Neither gossiping nor asking questions during church meetings (as was the case in Corinth) would seem to preclude women from speaking, and the apostle did say
(1 Cor 14:31):
“You can ALL prophecy one by one so that all may learn and all may be comforted…”
Did that mean just ALL of the men, or did that mean everybody? Neither Reformed doctrine nor the modern complimentarian theory can explain instances like that one.
Then Paul would have to take issue with Priscilla for being a trouble maker – how dare she act in cooperation with Aquila her husband, and presume to ‘teach’ Apollos anything! See what I mean folks – the theories you are espousing simply do not line up with the consistent record of Acts and the letters in the NT.
Anyone could be forgiven in thinking that women were simply saved so they could be silent, but this is not what we see in the NT!
And what of “Kyria” in 2 John 1 and 5? Is that a pseudonym for the local church (a female gender reference only,) or was ‘Kyria’ a real person with whom the apostle communicated, stating that he saw “her children walking in the truth”??? Kyria is the female gender of the Greek work Kurios, which means ‘lord’ so she by nature of her name is “a noble woman”.
See these two links for more on this:
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-chosen-lady-in-2-john/
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-chosen-lady-in-2-john/
In no way am I holding those wayward women mentioned above (Houston, Pringle, Leaf and Caine et al) as being the equals of these godly women mentioned in scripture – chalk and cheese…
@StL – neither did you answer any of the questions that I posed. Fobbing me off with the CARM website is an easy way out of the debate, isn’t it?
I’m not saying that CARM has nothing to add, but it is you who must make your case – not them…
I’m not suggesting that “women pastors/elders” assume authority roles at all> What I’m trying to express is an alternative view (common amongst many ‘Christian cults’) that women are mere adjuncts of men, and therefore have nothing to say…
Having said that, I have been associated with several women in ministry over many years and have found those particular ones to be submissive to their husbands, and at the same time being able to hold their own against the nay sayers. They were fine examples of godly women and worked in cooperation with their men folk, sometimes under arduous circumstances. None of them worked apart from male leadership or their husband’s approval – they were not rebellious as St Lawrence has suggested earlier on.
The problem as I see it, is that many of the Reformed/Complimentarian people are blinded to the simple fact that there were prominent women in the Old Testament (Deborah, Ruth, Esther, Sarah, Rebecca, Huldah, Anna et al) and the New Testament (too many to name here,) who were prominent in both the ministry of Jesus and later on, in the ministry of the apostles as well.
Even ‘blind Frederika’ can see that…
What do you mean by “qualified Biblically”? Paul named women as his ‘co-workers’ without formal qualifications or ordination even being mentioned. Do you mean that women who went to Bible School or Seminary have wasted their time in those pursuits?
Of course it’s not up for debate is it? No, you’ve made your choice, but that doesn’t entitle you to “muddy the waters” for the rest of the sheep who may be grazing on God’s word nearby.
I can understand you opposing the women in the Anglican church who have become “vicars” etc, as they are often rather butch take over merchants, and in doctrine and practice more resemble the pagan priestesses against whom the scripture has indeed warned us. It is “those” kind of women who should not be teaching, and the fab 4 I mentioned earlier also fall into that category – New Age rubbish and unbiblical practices are what they teach…
Thor, just to be clear, I’ve never had a problem with women serving in the church. The discussion started on the issue of ‘authority’ as elder/teacher over men, a position supported by scripture. We have women serving in our church in various ministries.
As for the sheep ‘grazing here’ please don’t take our word for it, take the time to study for yourselves. Read the well-presented article posted with the understanding that Matt Slick clearly addresses the objections, using scripture as his witness.
http://carm.org/women-in-ministry
There’s a balance we find throughout the bible where we see women used by God and there’s clearly a place for women within God’s ordained order in the structure of the church apart from the roles of elder/teacher leadership.
An interesting hypothetical to consider here. http://kenfryer.net/the-strange-case-of-brenda-maxwell/
Thinker – the article dated January 10, 2015, rather timely?
Reminds me of Beth Moore.
Good article Thinker.
Once you make such a vast compromise (women pastors/teachers), nobody can predict how bad it will end, or what heresy it may lead into.
I have often heard the example of Kay Arthur being cited as “such a great teacher.” In fact I’ve even heard “she’s better than men teachers”, etc…
My response is… “So what friend?” Compromise is compromise.
http://apprising.org/2012/11/16/about-kay-arthur-of-precept-ministries-international/
Churchwatcher, Beth Moore came to my mind as well. In the past the blogs “do not be surprised dot com” and “sola sisters dot com” have covered their concerns about Moore’s teachings very well.
Often it appears that people make the error of assuming because many women’s communications *styles* are more effective than many men’s, they would be able to deliver the same *content* equally well. Unfortunately that is untrue. *How* well a person preaches doesn’t automatically *what* they preach is good.
Women preachers have the same strengths and weaknesses as women overall – the tendency to value relationship more than (often uncomfortable) truth, gut feelings more than facts/ evidence, and making scripture fit their personal lives, not the other way around.
Look at Genesis 3 – the serpent deceived Eve into distrusting God’s Word. It was not sufficient for her. She excessively trusted her feelings and senses. She blatantly disobeyed God’s command NOT to eat that fruit and women have been the same way ever since. E.g. Deciding to take leadership roles in churches when commanded NOT by very clear verses from *different* books in the New Testament.
People conveniently forget that many other religions had female leaders and immorality and sensuality was a major component of those same religions. e.g. Look at modern churches where women take leadership in worship – look at the lyrics, look at the music style, look at the extended worship and slowing rhythms until people appear as if they are in a trance….
Erin Benziger from ‘Do Not Be Surprised’ has just started a podcast on Mike Abendroth’s No Compromise called ‘Equipping Eve’.
http://www.nocompromiseradio.com/2014/11/06/erin-benziger-interview-equipping-eve/
And Phil Johnson has just now reposted Erin’s article on Beth Moore:
http://www.donotbesurprised.com/2014/01/why-beth-moore-and-not-me-danger-of.html
the problem with this church today is its full of christians views and opinions. the bible makes these issues very clear, yet the church wont accept it.
as stated by other people above.
1 corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 corithians 11:8
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1 corithians 11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1 corinthians 11:12
For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1 corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 corinthians 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 timothy 2:11-14
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
here in these verses in the bible it is very clear, but the majority of christians choose to ignore them.
at their own freewill.
thats why we have so many weak churches, because they are full of women bishops and gay vicars.
we should not be conforming to the worlds way of feminism. there is nothing in the bible about feminists.
Get a life!
“As also saith under the law” . Hello, wakey, wakey – we are not under the law any more. Planet earth calling planet mars!!!!
Annette, this is a difficult subject for us women. However it does not matter if a woman believes she is meant to be a pastor/ leader of church. What does God’s Word I.e.bible say? If a woman goes against the bible’s commandments she is disobeying God, no matter how noble or good her intentions may be. Pride in one’s genuine speaking ability is still Pride, jealousy of men’s role in church (and stealing role as result) is still Envy and Theft.
{On a side-note, your “we are not under the Law any more” claim – the New Testament repeats the Lord’s commandments from Old Testament but re-worded. Therefore Christians are still to follow God’s commandments as presented in the New Testament.
e.g.* “thou shalt not murder” [Exodus 20:13] -> “love thy neighbor as thyself” [Mark 12:31]
* “thou shalt not bear false witness” [Exodus 20:16] -> “speaking the truth in love” [Ephesians 4:15(a)]}
Before the Fall (Genesis 3) God Himself said Eve was to be a *helper* to Adam [Genesis 2:18-25]. The woman’s helping role was designed by God. Our role is not to lead/preach or to be a man’s slave/ never say a thing either. Both unhealthy extremes for women do neither sex any good.
You are a chauvinist!!!
Annette – your comments have been approved to allow for further dialogue. Normally such attacks wouldn’t be allowed, but it appears to be a reflection of some really bad eisegesis on your part.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Berean, I mean, thinker, you are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, and I’m entitled to mine. I’m very confident of my walk with God and I am in no way jealous of men’s positions and I don’t have a problem with pride. Don’t project your struggles with sin onto me. Whatever Gods plan for my life is, I’m totally happy with. The Word of God is spiritually discerned, not intellectually understood.
“Whatever Gods plan for my life is, I’m totally happy with.”
If you had some self-control, instead of yapping your mouth, maybe you’d know what it was.
Nasty, nasty – biblos1972. Taking your personal problems out on me. Got a low self esteem, so have to have your daily fix of “I’ve got to put somebody else down so I can feel good about myself” day. That’s ok, as long as you feel better. God bless you.
Your assessments seem to be consistently very, very poor, Annette.
If anything, I have had the opposite…. an ego problem.
That’s what generally happens, when one graduates college with 3.92 average in a highly technical degree.
Annette, I have formed my “opinions” (as you put it) via reading the bible, reading Christian webites dealing with feminist ideology and listening to many well-informed preachers and apologists. What about you?
Spiritual Discernment requires the ability to differentiate between truth and error, true teachers and false teachers. Walking via the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean you have to switch your brain off as well. It is BOTH, not either/or.
You need to *use* your mind to analyse what scripture says. A “real Christians walk by the Spirit ONLY” mindset puts a Charismatic Christian at risk of becoming a CharisMANIAC. Here’s one woman’s story. https://mkayla.wordpress.com/a-trip-in-charismania/
Thinker, I’m not saying walk by the spirit only, obviously you need to use your intellect to be able to read and understand the words that are written in Gods Holy Bible. However you also need to allow Gods Holy Spirit to speak to your heart also, to be able to apply what God is saying through His Word to your life. That’s why our walk with God is called our relationship with Christ.
This problem is common to *NAR, *WOF and the *EMERGENT CHURCH. ALL THREE readily accept WOMEN as PASTORS and TEACHERS over men.
Here is a good example of the degradation this has come to… Verna Brown at Soul Harvest Worship Center Modesto is both *WOF and *NAR. She graduated from Rod Parsley’s World La-di-da Bible College (*WOF), and now she runs around ministering at *NAR churches.
Compare the two family bios:
“Her husband, Pastor Rick Brown, covers her and stands beside her in his ===>GIFT OF HELPS.<==="
…How generous, Rick gets the "GIFT OF HELPS." Barely honorable mention. But on her resume…
"Pastor Verna is a CHURCH PLANTER, VISIONARY, PRAYER WARRIOR, AND PROPHETIC WORSHIPER. She is a POWER-HOUSE PROPHET-PREACHER… She is the PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER of the Soul Harvest Ministerial Alliance where she oversees a number of pastors."
This lowly serf of a man hasn't even earned the right to be pictured beside her! He's too embarrassing…
http://www.soulharvestwc.org/the-team-vision/
She's also the one who does all the teaching on "their" church's facebook page…
AND runs "their" vimeo page…
I have seen many churches just like this one. I would ***NOT*** attend those.
This blatant "women pastors and teachers" lie got out of hand years ago…
Also on their site this upcoming teaching: "God's Design for your Dream Marriage."
My advice: Don't go there for that advice!
PS: One way women force the issue is they just 'start a ministry.' Then THEY are IN CHARGE… PERIOD!
~Andy
PS: I forgot to add the part to HER resume with this nonsense:
“She is also TRAINING AND SENDING OUT APOSTLES, PROPHETS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, AND TEACHERS around the world.
Pastor Verna is strong voice in the region and to the Body of Christ as a whole.
As a result of His “manifest-resting presence,” UPON HER LIFE AND MINISTRY: HEALINGS, SALVATIONS, DELIVERANCES, SIGNS, WONDERS AND MIRACLES occur.”
Does this church think everybody is really stupid enough to believe this???
~Andy
Annette
Get a life!
i am a chauvinist!!!
so you dont believe what the bible says, because thats where it all comes from you believe in your own views and opinions.
youre not a christian you are a antichrist. take it up with jesus not me. im just quoting what the bible says.
Mr Hatch, my name is AnnieChrist, Christ is in me. You made a typo, hahahaha!!!
Sorry, I spoke, I forgot – I’m meant to be silent because I am a mere woman. Naughty Annette.
Annette keep the verses in context. Women are directed to keep silent in CHURCH, not keep silent full-stop.
Thinker, it was a joke.
there are people who claim to be christians yet they hate what the bible says.
galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
romans 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
proverbs 13:13
Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded
luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Well Churchwatcher – I hope the “dialogue” here between Annette and Mr Hatch is what you were hoping for… 🙂
My whole take on this is not to deny the boundaries set by scripture, but to try and find some balance in the equation. Bible based cults like Revival Centres International officially recognise the wives of pastors as having equal standing, but in practice, the majority of women in that movement are suppressed and treated like second class citizens – same goes for Potter’s House.
UPC (Oneness) pentecostals do in fact dress their women in ‘Amish style dresses’, and they are forbidden to cut their hair – at all – from childhood. This belief then becomes a silly ‘competition’ at their annual conferences, between “who has the longest and prettiest hair, and who wears the longest dress”? Not focused on Christ is it? No – it’s just the flesh… as with all such legalism.
That is what happens when such doctrines are taken to extremes – women do become mere adjuncts of men and that is a far flung place from even the complimentarian stance. Consider the Brethren churches (both closed and open) they also have this silly “women keep silence in the churches” stance and they are also forced to wear veils in many congregations – something which the apostle himself said
“if any man be contentious, then we have no such custom” 1 Cor 11:15,16
Paul believed in order in the church, but he did not support legalism.
Have no idea where you get the idea that agreeing with what the bible says about the roles of men and women when the church is ‘gathered’ is somehow likened to legalism. If you have taken the time to read the carm.org post on women, you would have noticed that the issue of being ‘silent’ is quite different to what you assume.
As for the dialogue between Mr Hatch & Annette, that is a ongoing moderator problem where Annette is concerned.
I can assure you Churchwatcher, that all of those groups mentioned above had roots in godly organisation, but when they began to think that they were God’s gift to humanity (they had ‘the truth’ and no one else did) they broke off from their main parent bodies and began to look a little cultish.
That attitude in them worsened over the years, but ask them today and they still believe that THEY and they alone have the truth – including that of the role of women in the church… You and I know better than that – we know that they are cults, but they just won’t admit that they are wrong about anything.
As for your “agreeing with what the bible says about the roles of men and women when the church is ‘gathered’ is somehow likened to legalism” statement – well it does say that women “prayed and prophesied” in 1 Corinthians 11:5 :
“But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.”
Not a lot of silence going on in that verse… and BTW – I did look at the CARM site and will get back to it again. I am not unteachable, but what I see here is an argument based on fear, not faith or facts. It seems to me that any church that gives women a certain amount of liberty in that area will be targeted and likened to the Fab 4 and their wayward ‘churches’ as mentioned above and that is simply not true.
It is self evident that in both the OT and the NT women had prominent roles and that the Reformed part of the church neither sees that or recognises it as a fact – that is lip service – it is not Bible doctrine.
that is why there is no power in this church to overcome sin, because so many christians wont do what the bible says.
acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
numbers 32:23
But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
the grace message has gone to far with women bishops, its not bibilical.
@ Annette,
hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
You guys have lost the plot!
And you place my replies in such an order as to misrepresent what I am talking about, and to promote your own agendas.
biblos1972 – your opinion matters zero to me. Congratulations on your result in your highly technical degree. Although I must remind you of the Word of God in 1 Corinthians 1:25-29 For what seems to be Gods foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be Gods weakness is stronger than human strength. Now remember what you were, my brothers, when God called you. From the human point of view few of you were wise or powerful or of high social standing. God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise, and he chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the powerful. He chose what the world looks down on and despises and thinks is nothing, in order to destroy what the world thinks is important. In other words your highly technical degree is irrelevant to the conversation.
“In other words your highly technical degree is irrelevant to the conversation.”
Not really. You made another one of your foolish assumptions. All I did was correct you.
“Although I must remind you of the Word of God….”
You would be better off sticking to topics you are familiar with.
Excuse me, your pride and arrogance is showing. Nice to meet you.
And you are disputing Gods Word. A spirit of rebellion.
And your communication skills are very poor, biblos1972. I suggest you take a course to be able to adequately communicate with others.
This Worldview Weekend radio episode is free for *several days only* (subscription required to access episode after that).
Interview with Justin Peters and Susan Heck about Beth Moore complaining about being named a false teacher. http://worldviewweekend.com/radio/audio/brannon-howse-aired-january-12-2015
Just listened to that program this morning! Susan Heck is a really good women’s teacher. Amazing that she has committed at least 23 books of the bible to memory. I find it difficult to memorise more than one or two verses.
Thinker, did you have a chance to read the email dialogue between Beth Moore and the young 22 year old woman?
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/01/12/beth-moore-confronts-young-pastors-wife-for-criticizing-her-direct-divine-revelation/
And Beth Moore has been a keynote speaker at Hillsong women’s Colour Conference.
That exchange is definitely worth reading. Moore sounds very sincere and like she genuinely believes in/ values the bible in *theory*. In *practice* she is listening to the inner voice she claims is “God”.
Reading the two’s exchange shows the contrast between Charismatics (personal experience outranks the bible), and non-Charismatics (bible outranks personal experience). If forced to make a choice Moore would choose what she “heard from God” and then find a verse/ passage to proof-text it, just like many cults do. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b03.html.
Thinker – I suggest you repent of your disobedience and rebellion against God’s Word which advises us that we do not need anyone to teach is as The Holy Spirit is our teacher. Stop blaspheming a against the Holy Spirit. I realise that this site, and c3church watch are full of people like yourself who have major issues and sins of the heart that you refuse to repent of!!!
Churchwatcher, Don’t you think it’s time for a ban on the Annette troll?
Let’s get some positive action on this. Is anyone willing to step up to the plate?
Oh No!!! I’m not agreeing with the you, let’s call me a troll, Drew. Feeling threatened?
Annette, do you compare what you believe you are being told by the Holy Spirit with an open bible (as well as an open mind)? Several examples:
1. Hebrews 13:7 *Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation*. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace.
Therefore some Christians’ role is to teach and *lead* their flock. People in the flock are to follow their shepherds. Christians are not supposed to fly solo, unless in extreme circumstances.
2. Body of Christ passage:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+12&version=KJV
Note knowledge gift:
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit.
Therefore – even though Christians are expected to learn for themselves – some Christians’ strengths is greater knowledge/ understanding than others’ strengths, just like different members of the body. AN eye cannot hear, a hand cannot walk etc.
3. James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Therefore not many masters are in a church at one time. If there is a master then there are followers.
4. John 14:26 [Jesus said to the APOSTLES] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, *whatsoever I have said unto you*.
Note: whatever Jesus said/ apostles later said via scripture. If you are disobeying scripture you are disobeying the Holy Spirit Annette. Remember the doctrine of the Trinity.
P.S. it took me a long time to let go of the Charismatic mindset and many people online seem to say the same thing. I don’t expect you to be convinced unless you do your own bible studies and compare what other ex-Charismatics say/ present online with scripture yourself.
In addition to ex-Charismatics’ material, pastors/preachers who have studied and examined the Charismatic Movement and its doctrines.
e.g. http://teampyro.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Charismaticism
I’m not disobeying God’s Word by allowing God’s Holy Spirit to comfort me, guide me, teach me, counsel me, let me know when there is danger, etc. I know God’s Word and I walk in The Spirit and am growing in that respect. The power of God’s Spirit is vital for overcoming sin. That’s my walk and as I mentioned before I’m very confident of my relationship with Christ. He is upholding me with His righteous right hand. I don’t need to explain or justify my walk to you, thinker. You are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs.
I also have the Word of God in my spirit, as I feed upon Gods Word it goes into my spirit. I have the mind of Christ. With all of this armour I can be protected from deception.
Yes, you can remain protected if God’s commandments in the Bible are obeyed, and if the armour of God is kept on (see Ephesians 6:10-20). All Christians have to remain vigilant because Satan does still attack us, often when we least expect it.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Unfortunately It is possible for Christians to be deceived for a while, otherwise the apostle Paul wouldn’t have given this warning to the Colossian *Church*.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
That’s true, we must be humble before God and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. God is holy.
@Annette:” I realise that this site, and c3church watch are full of people like yourself who have major issues and sins of the heart that you refuse to repent of!!!
I also have the Word of God in my spirit, as I feed upon Gods Word it goes into my spirit. I have the mind of Christ.”
Annette, are you saying that Jesus Christ agrees with you? That ‘c3churchwatch are full of people who have major issues and sins of the heart…? This is…from the mind of Christ?
+ 100. I must have forgotten that one! Do Charismatics really think that spiritual Christian discernment is an oxymoron, even a sin? *shakes head*
Carefully examining impressions, thoughts and feelings according to God’s Word is now a symptom of “major issues and sins of the heart?”
Annette, can you show *from the bible, chapter and verse* – where rejecting impressions, thoughts and/or feelings that contradict/distort scripture is labelled / condemned as sinful/ blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
Yes
So you’re against this site? You’re an undercover Hillsong supporter? Has it occurred to you that you may be part of the reason why people leave Hillsong and C3?
Yes, “the truth”, I am. Now I have no more to say, I’ve said all I want to say.
Annette – Galatians 5:22-23 ‘But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control’.
None being perfect, people have reacted firmly and kindly to your comments here, showing great self-control generally. Can you say you have reacted in the ways listed above, these being evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
You can accuse everyone here of having issues and ‘sins of the heart’ [??] and you again state for the 2nd time that you think exactly like Jesus Christ, and that He agrees with your sweeping condemnations? wow…just…wow….brian houston ‘thinks’ the same thing.
You are not Our Lord Jesus Christ, annette….o.k? Please pray about this.
The truth – I said that as I study Gods Word I allow it to go into my Spirit, this is a process where we are transformed by the renewing of our mind, hence the scripture which says we have the mind of Christ. I’m sorry for you that you find this so surprising. Anyhow this whole conversation is becoming extremely boring. I’ll sign off now, I’ve got better things to do. God bless
Churchwatcher, i have to disagree with you. The many of the commenters here show a “I’m right and you are wrong” unteachable, prideful, shallow attitude. As I said to the truth, this conversation has become extremely boring and petty. I’ve got better things to do. I will agree to disagree with you and I respect your right to your own opinion. God bless.
Probably for the best Annette. Every time you come back here, you invariably resort to attacking others, sadly proving you to be one of the rudest people ever to comment here.
*The many of the commenters here show a “I’m right and you are wrong” unteachable, prideful, shallow attitude.*
The commenters are saying the *bible* is right and you are *wrong unteachable prideful and shallow* Annette. Adding *God bless* is hypocrisy.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Thankyou Churchwatcher, I take that as a compliment 🙂
A scripture to meditate on, Annette.
John 8:42-47 “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but whe sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
@annette: “hence the scripture which says we have the mind of Christ. I’m sorry for you that you find this so surprising. Anyhow this whole conversation is becoming extremely boring. I’ll sign off now, I’ve got better things to do.”
Yes, i am familiar with 1Corinthians2:16, if that is what you are referring to.
There is a distinct lack of Holy Scripture being quoted in your replies, if at all.
Having the mind of Christ is to bring Glory to Him, with discernment, and with obedience to His Word…not your own carnal reasoning.
thetruth
well said we must respond to each other with the bible, words like Get a life! and You are a chauvinist!!!
are not words you find in the bible, they are the kind of words you hear in the world.
there is no place for carnal thinking, when we are reasoning with christians who know the word of god.
the facts are there is nothing wrong with women in leadership, what is not right is women should have no authority over men in the church.
in other words they should not be pastoring men, this is why so many Christians lives are being destroyed in these churches.
because the biblical roles for men and women in the church, are not lining up with the bible.
Thinker: “Annette, can you show *from the bible, chapter and verse* – where rejecting impressions, thoughts and/or feelings that contradict/distort scripture is labelled / condemned as sinful/ blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?”
Annette: “Yes”
Drew: No you can’t Annette. That’s why you didn’t give a verse then, and you never will. You pull ideas out of air which are not in The Bible. You also once argued “people can lose their salvation.” You couldn’t give a verse then either.
Annette: “I know God’s Word and I walk in The Spirit”
o “I realise that this site, and c3church watch are full of people like yourself who have major issues and sins of the heart that you refuse to repent of!!!”
o “Get a life!”
o “You are a chauvinist!!!”
Drew: You’re kidding yourself Annette, name-calling is not someone walking in the Spirit, another thing you can’t give a verse for either. Like I said you’re just out trolling around.
I agree with you Drew and hope for Annette’s sake she only needs to repent of being a troll.
Annette: “The many of the commenters here show a “I’m right and you are wrong” unteachable, prideful, *shallow* attitude.”
That last adjective is very revealing. You just proved my previous point: Charismatics value experience more than the bible, to the point they are *judgemental* and dismiss other Christians who put the bible first as being “shallow”, unfilled with the Holy Spirit, a second-class Christian. i.e. two-tiered system, similar to rank in military forces.
Many Christian apologists have exposed that mentality for what it is: A modern-form of GNOSTICISM, knowledge of God gained via experience, instead of (a simple child-like) faith in Jesus Christ as described by the bible. “Strange Fire – the rise of Gnosticism in the Church. http://www.discernment-ministries.org/StrangeFire.pdf
To be fair, we all come from a range of situations and backgrounds. To understand the person’s life and experience more on this site will actually help explain why they hold to certain views of the scripture.
We all struggle with this. For instance we know someone who had an abusive father, so they had huge difficulty excepting God’s love. Why? Because they thought if God the Father was quite prepared to pour out His wrath on His Son, the Father might do it to them too. They needed to be healed of their experience first so they could actually understand those scriptures better.
I think the issues people have in discussing the doctrines of Calvinism, Cessationism, Baptism and Complimentarianism is that they snowball their previous hurts, fears and experiences into these discussions whether they are for or against these doctrines.
I encourage people to give this discussion a rest. It’s not helping anyone. We can all agree that Bobbie Houston’s comments were inappropriate and immature.