This is Part 3 of my series of 3 articles. Please feel free to read my previous articles below:
Hillsong Insider (Part 1): “My exit out of a mega church… Never to return again”
Hillsong Insider (Part 2): “The Hillsong Takeover of a Norwegian Charismatic Mega Church”
In this article I will be looking at how Hillsong operate in secrecy to achieve their own purposes.
CONTROLLING SECRECY
One thing that I noticed which appears to be a common trade mark of mega churches is secrecy.
They shroud their events and conferences in secrecy. They treat us lay people like little kids that can’t wait for Christmas morning to unwrap the gifts and that we are just as thrilled with the “Surprise” element as all the gifts!
The year before we joined Hillsong I was at the leadership conference. I was helping out in the cafe when the lady in charge said: “Oh! Now it’s about time for the grand opening! Let’s turn the oven off and run and check it out! I’m so excited, it’s a big surprise! No idea what they are going to do but the opening is always something to see!”
So we rushed in and remained towards the back of the audience to get a glimpse. We saw the stage was all a glow with smoke and lights. There were two guys on keyboards on opposite sides of the stage dressed in pantomime masks (Like all white faces with no color) and they were playing like trans, disco, echo, high tech effects piano cords. Then a girl with a long, white, flowing robe appeared standing on a box/platform that was very high. This made her like a giant (almost) and was singing notes with her back to us. She was not singing words but just notes, like the girls in the Pink Floyd band.
The girl slowly turns around as she is singing. It’s very dramatic and theatrical. Then the rock and roll praise band comes out with 4-6 lead singers and full band and we are off to a roaring start.
They ended the 3-4 day conference with what they called “the Holy Shuffle”. It did not say in the program what it was but everybody was excited about it! It was some sort of dance night with a DJ, a sort of social ending to the conference. I was appalled by the idea and certainly did not go.
Also for the Easter service… nobody knew a girl was going to descend from the ceiling swinging from silk scarves!!!! Seriously you have more of an idea what to expect when you go to the circus… then you do on any given Sunday at a mega church!!!!
I object STRONGLY to not knowing what is going on.
Now I go to a small church where it is always announced what is going on and what to expect.
I seriously started looking into the Bible on this and realized that God never makes a move in secret. Even when the walls of Jericho came down he told the people what to expect.
In the New Testament when the Lord sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the Lord Jesus had said that he would send His spirit as the Comforter. AND the Lord has told us that when He returns… every eye shall see Him and the trumpet shall sound. The Lord doesn’t work or move in secret. When Jesus was born the angels in heaven sang his arrival! As you can see, we can go on and on with examples.
But look at how Jesus exposes the behaviour of Satan or God’s “enemy”:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.” Matthew 13:24-26
Working in secret is a Hillsong trademark and I don’t trust it. I do not like how it is being foisted on the church and reinforced as though this is how church operates. Hillsong is EVEN invading our churches in secret.
Didn’t Jesus and His Apostles teach that the Christian’s conduct and confession be public, open and honest? Why isn’t this standard in operation in Hillsong’s leadership?
CONCLUSION
Can you imagine that these days it’s more upfront to join a political party then a church? At least a political party says what they are going to do when you ellect them. Then they end up not doing any of it and we have the democratic power to vote them out of office!
In a church they just use spiritual manipulation. You have no power.
Hillsong Church Watch 
The more I read the more I understand why I cant go to church locally, so many have taken on the Hillsong type of programs and you just dont feel that connection with God as of old.
This is why I don’t go to church much myself anymore either. I’m hoping to find a couple of real Christians to have a Bible study with. I know at least one nearby, we have already talked about starting one.
“I cant go to church locally, so many have taken on the Hillsong type of programs”
HS-wannabee ‘churches’ and HS ‘music’ is everywhere. Everybody wants to be HS. My old church started doing HS music, the actual HS songs, I got sick of it. The lyrics were faux-Christian. Just shallow. No depth. A shallow faux-Christian ‘church’ with a shallow faux-Christian leader.
You sometimes have to wonder what isnt “faux” about Hillsong? Most certainly their “worship” is.
Sad part is many churches in Australia are Hillsong in the making. But like a frog slowly dieing in boiling water most dont know it.
Unplug the power cord and this evil masquerading itself as worship will not draw the crowds hillsong so desperately craves. The music at Hillsong has nothing to do with the New Testament example to “sing hymns, psalms and spiritual songs, making melody in your heart to the Lord”
If the Old Testament (old law) example is to be plucked out from Old Testament examples such as Kind David then he played pure music to far bigger audiences without the aid of megaphones. But our example is not what was prescribed for temple worship, but as the example set by the Apostles and Jesus himself to sing! Not play!
Bottom line, without the rocky horror freak shows there will be no Hillsong.
Hillsong Watch reminds me of the Pharisees in Jesus day. Jesus admonished the Pharisees petty criticisms, rules & hypocrisy, as they overlooked the greater concepts of love, truth, justice, eternity & grace. You might prefer a rigid, comfortable, no surprise format with unemotional singing. Is this a matter of personal taste or reflection of your spiritual state? I prefer a joyful, lively, creative, bible based expression of God’s grace, truth & love (even when not all “surprises” are to my taste). A church where multiple souls are saved (13 in the last fortnight in my one little Hillsong ch). God looks at heart & motives. I suggest after getting the log out of your own eye, email valid, constructive significant concerns to Hillsong direct.
@ Truth & Love – And what did Jesus have to say about false teachers and people who like to have their ears tickled?
Due to a strong evangelical university church (Moore college) background, I am hypervigilent re false teaching / taking Bible passages out of context, etc. Since our “Hillsong take over” nearly a year ago, I haven’t heard any false teaching (except for inaccurate distortions on this site). Suprisingly, Hillsong is now a very grace & Bible based church. (This wasn’t the case when I’d visited Sydney Hillsong in past decades. The repelling, flashy financial / prosperity focus seems gone, phew).
Which is why the question – is your church autonomous? If you have been reading these ChurchWatch sites since their inception, you would see we have addressed this very fairly. And we appreciate your interaction here, but it seems as if you skirt specific questions. Women pastors preaching to men and Jesus’ opinion about false teachers (Brian Houston being one of that group, also guilty of exposing his congregation to other false teachers e.g. T.D. Jakes, Bill Johnson, to name just two).
And as for “distortions” – we have in “context, context, context”, audio to prove they aren’t “distorted”.
Truth & Love – If you want to hear a biblical review of Brian Houston, listen to his sermon at Saddleback. You see, we actually do listen to MANY Hillsong sermons, and not just this one attached:
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2013/01/louie-giglio-twists-ezekiel-37.html
We (unfortunately) listen to many bad sermons and (fortunately) listen to 100’s of good ones from around the world. Because it’s very discouraging to hear so many false teachers and their sermons, we also continue to be encouraged by those blessed “voices in the wilderness” sadly becoming so few now as more churches succumb to the church growth movement and get caught up under the umbrellas of Hillsong and C3 globally. We do our homework. It’s like spotting counterfeit currency – “Federal agents don’t learn to spot counterfeit money by studying the counterfeits. They study genuine bills until they master the look of the real thing. Then when they see the bogus money they recognize it.”
To quote from an article by Tim Chaliies on “Counterfeit Detection”:
“There is a clear parallel here to spiritual discernment. Just as I am responsible for money I accept and later attempt to spend, in the same way I am responsible for the teachings I accept and later attempt to share with others. Thus it is my responsibility before God to inspect every teaching that comes my way. I should test each teaching that is presented to me, refusing to accept any that go against the plain teaching of Scripture. There are tests the Bible provides which will help us discern truth from error. 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 exhorts all Christians to “test everything; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.” We are first to test, then abstain, and finally hold fast.
“I mentioned the phrase, “touch, tilt, look through, look at” as a filter through which I can pass a particular piece of currency. These represent four exercises which will draw my attention to the marks of a genuine piece of currency. Similarly, the Bible provides a series of tests we can use to discern truth from error. I have much reflection to do in this area, but I would suggest some good filters we can apply in the spiritual realm are: examining Scripture, seeking the counsel of godly men and women, and seeking the consensus of historic Christianity.”
“A parallel commonly used by authors and preachers, is that, like experts in counterfeit currency, a person who wishes to be discerning must focus more on what is genuine than what is counterfeit.”
“Christians, and even those with a particular gifting or interest in discernment, should focus more on truth than error. The more we understand what is true, the easier it will be to identify what is fraudulent. The more we know about God’s character, God’s ways, and God’s Word, the greater the contrast will be between truth and error.”
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
Please refer me to specific sermons (within year). Will listen objectively. Thanks.
You might want to listen to Roberta Houston’s giving sermon as well Brian Houston’s “Good Friday” message.
http://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/04/24/bobbie-brian-houston-desecrating-good-friday-updated/
“I am hypervigilent re false teaching / taking Bible passages out of context […]”
Really? Is your seeing eye dog that way as well?
“Hillsong is now a very grace & Bible based church. The repelling, flashy financial / prosperity focus *SEEMS GONE*, phew”
“Due to a strong evangelical university church (Moore college) background, *I AM HYPERVIGILANT RE FALSE TEACHING / TAKING BIBLE PASSAGES OUT OF CONTEXT*, etc. Since our “Hillsong take over” nearly a year ago, I haven’t heard any false teaching (except for inaccurate distortions on this site).”
@T&l, Do you ‘tithe’ 10% of your income to Hillsong?
Oh no. Pharisees? Even brian has learned not to be that ignorant anymore.
Then you must be a Sadduccee, opposite of a Pharisee, or a Scribe?
Let’s see. Sadducees are mentioned in various literature as: “men-pleasers”, “those who trust in their riches”, sinners who transgress and pervert the Eternal Law.”
I notice you have learned from hillsong to evade any questions thus far about brian, his ramblings or his outstanding Royal Commission failure to help sexual abuse victims.That is less than being forthright and honest regarding your defence of hillsong beliefs. Scripture is also missing quite badly from your argument.
T&L: “I am [sic]hypervigilent re false teaching.”
Hypervigilant didnt notice the infamous brian ‘allah is the same as the Christian God’ statements? How about those tithes that bless or curse you?
You may want to somehow prove or allege by your words, that a person could be ignorant in good faith-but you are mistaken. Ignorance can be extenuating, but it never absolves.
Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.”
Good faith ignorance does NOT free you from the penalty, only that it may be lessened. So do not turn away from God’s Commandments for feel-good, non-Biblical ‘new things’.
There are those who try NOT to learn God’s Word to plead ignorance,and those who really don’t want to inquire much about whether they should obey it. The above Scripture reveals that they are both wrong.
T&L: “God looks at heart & motives.”
Yes indeed He does T&L.
So you attribute salvation, the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, to Hillsongs stage performance and music?
Sounds like you think the gospel is deficient and needs mans help.
Secondly, the pharasees were wanting to keep all the 613 Levitical laws pluss some, where jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, predicted the destruction of the Temple and ushered in a New Covenant.
What He chose to keep (from the old law) is visible in the New Testament. Singing been one of them but not music! Music is very subjective and certain styles can severely offend some, and even drive them away.
That is why we are commanded to sing and not play, as almost all can sing even with “bad voices” but not everyone can play.
You say Hillsong has changed, but i dont see it. The rocky horror stage shows are stiil there, they stiil have women pastors, stage theatrics with girls dressed in tight clothing wriggling their behinds to the beat of the drums and the preaching is almost always shallow and watered down.
Granted it has changed, what brought about that change? Is it possible the “change” has come about due to pressure and correction coming from blogs such as this one? Something you are in fact condemning
Answer to your first question “Hellsong” (interesting name you’ve chosen for yourself): no. You sound to be a mysogynist? (Jesus isn’t). Answer to your last question, maybe Hillsong has responded to valid, fair criticism (& prayer & the Holy Spirit) which I’m not against, if it’s in love, accurate & constructive. (Preferably direct to Hillsong first, before judgemental public shaming).
Truth & Love – well done for continuing to dialogue here, we really do appreciate that you do. Please understand you’re talking to Christians who have been hurt by what’s aptly named the “evangelical industrial complex”. Fellow believers who, though among the many disenfranchised ex-Hillsongers/ex-C3ers, haven’t walked away from Christ (as if they could if they are truly His). Quite a few here still have family members attending these movements, and are feeling the pain of separation, also the loss of “friends”, the feeling of having left a cult though hesitating to call these movements just that. Many here are adjusting to a reprogramming of their previous theological stance, as they come to understand the doctrines of grace, and His tender mercies as they “think biblically, think critically and compare what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God.”
Thanks for your reply Truth & Love.
Interesting name you have chosen too, wonder if you live up to it? Im glad you love the truth.
Accusing me of misogyny is a just a derogatory and emotional attack, designed to shame, rather than expose the biblical position.
If i am a misogynist then so is the Apostle Paul and so is God. It is not my idea that woman are not appointed as pastors but Gods. Hillsong church is going against Gods word in so many ways, yet your name suggests you love the truth, if so what are you doing about the women preachers in your church?
What are you doing about all the rock n roll played in your church? Women wriggling their behinds to the beat of the drums?
What if i had no church to go to (which is actually the case), and, all that exist is a seeker sensitive, purpose driven Hillsong type of church, that has loud rock music… would you return to the hymns as commanded by scripture, so your brother could worship too, or would you selfishly hold onto the golden calf of music, and offend a brother that has nowhere else to go?
This is the situation and sin Hillsong and the purpose driven church has created. Mark Driscoll has already chased out “dissenters” calls them “blessed subtraction”.
Hellsong I didn’t accuse you of being a mysogynist. I just asked a question, possibly detecting an underlying direspect / scorn for (at least some) women. (As Jesus said, out of the heart the mouth speaks / writes). I apologise if you experienced this as deliberate shaming (who’s trying to shame who?). I’m just trying to facilitate fair, constructive conversation… My focus at church is rarely women’s bottoms, let alone whether they wriggle! I think its great that women freely express the joy within, but yes all need to be sensitive & aware of the impact on others. (Thankfully Christian women aren’t required to wear Muslim type attire). Jesus challenged the Pharisees re judging Him for healing on the Sabbath. Jesus valued rest (tried to get away) however wasn’t legalistic, so compromised to love / do good, even on the Sabbath Day. Similarly if in today’s times, women can also effectively communicate life changing messages, why not … (Do you expect Christian women to also be completely silent, have long hair or hats in ch, with no jewellery??). God gives wisdom & discretion if we ask … Again please focus on good, building one another up & constructive, respectful feedback (preferably direct to those who need to hear it)… Hey I too have been disappointed with churches / individuals, but try to focus on what I can contribute to Jesus bride… Hellsong I hope you find a reasonably balanced church, with genuine caring Christians (& accept there won’t be perfection here yet).
“Hillsong Watch reminds me of the Pharisees in Jesus day.”
Hillsong defenders remind me of morons throughout the ages.
Still distorting what Brian said about Allah, by omitting his clarification… Last time I extensively quoted the NIV Bible, it was dismissed as irrelevant as I “must have used google”! (I hadn’t). You don’t know what private arrangement Brian might have made, or is making, to financially compensate his father’s past sexual abuse victims. Have you ever financially compensated anyone for your fathers sins?? The Bible teaches to be responsible for our own sins, although sadly the consequences can reverberate down the generations. I think Brian Houston handled a mortifying situation humbly & well, as he knew how to at the time. Still learning & growing (inc in relation to finances) …
Interesting. Can anyone be compensated financially for sexual abuse as a form of recovery? To put a so-called compensatory $ value on one of the worst things that could happen to a child (last count including children in New Zealand, over 100). Or would that be yet another form of abuse? Like the cover up instigated by Brian Houston sending his father to another church, a church where the congregation was not told that his father was a pedophile. A church where one father, whose little boy often sat next to Frank, was horrified to finally hear the truth after years of non disclosure.
Sadly T&L, your words are very naive.
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2015/05/dangerous-declaration.html
Churchwatcher this is what happens when its all about the numbers and ones family.
Jesus condemns both by the way.
Brian Houston failed miserably in handling his father pedophilia allegations.
He needed to immediately divorce himself from the conflict of interest and assign one of his most senior elders, call the police and ask his father to step down immediately untill investigation.
What was Brian Houston supposed to do for a crime he had no knowledge of for 30+ years? I mean nothing can compensate being abused… He might not have handled it perfectly but who would have? I have no idea what I would do if I had to learn something that terrifying about my own dad, my hero (and I’m sure Brian Houston loved him a lot and considered him as his hero as well, don’t we all do with our fathers?)… That’s tragic! I’m not saying we should have a “pity party” about what B. Houston must have been through but given the situation I’m more inclined to applaud the guy rather than point out every single detail of what he should have done better and said better (re this issue).
Anyway, just my opinion guys,
Have a nice day y’all!
“He might not have handled it perfectly but who would have?”
That’s the point. Only an idiot would have TRIED to handle this incident the way Brian Houston. All he needed to do was:
1. READ THE MANUAL and follow it.
2. Report the issue to the AOG.
3. Step aside.
He didn’t. He got personally involved when most people would have realised that it is not the safest thing to do. For him to feign ignorance at the Royal Commission for his understanding of ‘conflict of interest’ was damnable. No one fell for it.
So 1 Cor 1:5? Going by your understanding, no one could have handled it better than Brian.
“What was Brian Houston supposed to do for a crime he had no knowledge of for 30+ years?”
If one preaches a false gospel for personal gain, do you think that feigned ignorance will constitute a valid defence when one stands before God in the judgement? And, if it does not, what will be the logical end of those who are guilty of such acts?
“What was Brian Houston supposed to do for a crime he had no knowledge of for 30+ years?”
The right thing, which he didn’t do.
“I mean nothing can compensate being abused…”
So I mean go ask those hurt if they didn’t want compensation. Apparently the answer will surprise you.
“He might not have handled it perfectly but who would have?”
Any godly person.
Brian Houston is *WOF. He is a minister of the go$pel…..
Please understand that Paul distanced himself from Brian Houston and those like him…
2 corinthians 2:17:
“Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God FOR PROFIT. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.”
Thanks for your input guys, I can feel your anger towards what Brian Houston did in your comments wow!
@churchwatch: I didn’t say no one could have handled it better than him and I actually believe a lot of people would have. I don’t know all the details of this story (and no I don’t want to waste time reading all about it) but I feel like a lot of people judge him as if he was the peadophile and not his father. Have a nice day! Be blessed
@TF: I was talking about his knowledge of the crime his father committed and nothing else, that would be another debate. Hope you have a nice day, be blessed!
@billy: for the compensation part I was responding to churchwatch who said that money cannot compensate the abuse. I was trying to say that to compensate your dad’s error with money is not the perfect thing to do but it’s still a good start to help the hurting person. And let’s agree to disagree on the “handling it perfectly” part. Any godly person is still a human and I think we all try our best, listening to God and living according to the Bible, and yet we still cannot handle it perfectly. And it’s ok. God is on the journey with us to help us grow into who He has made us to be, that’s what the sanctification is, being more and more like Jesus. I hope this explains what I was saying better :). Have a nice day Billy, be blessed!
@andy: I don’t know what a WOF is haha! 🙂 but you make it sound like it’s not good. Yep totally agree with the verse you are citing here! Have a great day Andy! Be blessed
1 Cor 1:5 – Your paragraph below in response to one of the moderators
“@churchwatch: I didn’t say no one could have handled it better than him and I actually believe a lot of people would have. I don’t know all the details of this story (and no I don’t want to waste time reading all about it) but I feel like a lot of people judge him as if he was the peadophile and not his father. Have a nice day! Be blessed”
Correct, you don’t know all the details. AND you don’t want waste time reading all about it? Well, sadly, we have and some here even attended the Royal Commssion. No one here is judging Brian as if he was the pedophile, the “judgements” are all about his cold-hearted response to the victims (and yes he’s a victim too). There was a huge cover-up by Houston and his inner leadership team and to this day the victims, and there’s over 100 including those in New Zealand, are still waiting for some sense of closure.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“I was talking about his knowledge of the crime his father committed and nothing else, that would be another debate.”
Firstly, it’s not “another debate”, because Brian’s ignorance, whether feigned or real, whether wilful or not, is all symptomatic of his spiritual condition. That is, it is symptomatic of the fact that he does not know God.
Secondly, it is not a “debate” at all, because the fact that Brian is an unsaved man running a pseudo-Christian cult and preaching a false gospel by another spirit is a fact that has been well-established on the basis of his own words (lurching, as they do from asinine to the blasphemous and back again as he dishes out generous dollops of unadulterated drivel).
T&L: “I think Brian Houston handled a mortifying situation humbly & well, as he knew how to at the time.”
It is NOT frank houston who told brian houston to declare he has NO MORAL OR FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY to his father’s victims! That’s right T&L….ONLY brian houston made the choice to repond in this way!
This is a person who declares: “I love speaking life to people and helping them to win.” WHERE has he helped these people? What life is he speaking to them? Shameful.
Allah clarification? Still waiting for it!
The best he could do was say: “that’s what i said, but it wasn’t what i meant.”
You call that a clarification?
Some people will defend the Word of God to the grave..and some will defend hillsong to the grave. I am glad i know what side i am on.
“Some people will defend the Word of God to the grave..and some will defend hillsong to the grave.”
And of course the former group will not remain in death, whereas the latter group will.
“Still distorting what Brian said […]”
Oh, that’s rich. So people are distorting what poor old Brian said? He must be *so* upset about that. Perhaps Brian should desist from preaching half-truths and outright lies, and then he wouldn’t continually get caught out by his own utterings (I assume you are aware that if a man digs a pit he will fall into it).
The first step for Brian is to repent and put his trust in Christ, after which time he can be delivered from his demons. Then, when he is in right standing with God and has been cleaned up, he will be in a position to find out what the plan for his life is. Who knows, it may even include ministry of some sort.
“I think Brian Houston handled a mortifying situation humbly & well, as he knew how to at the time. Still learning & growing (inc in relation to finances) …”
T&L,
yeah.. brian sure still is learning & growing in relation to finances alright. hes always on the prowl seeking for more creative ways to fleece the flock.
and on brian being humble. what ever gave you that idea? BH calls Christians who disagree with him or even just point out errors in what he says, ‘EVIL’. so humble, that brian guy, lol.
“Still distorting what Brian said about Allah, by omitting his clarification…”
Distorting? No. We point out what Brian Houston distorts. Which, by the way, is a form of lying.
And us omitting? No. We also point out what Brian Houston omits in sermons, media interviews and so on. Which is also, by the way, a form of lying.
We haven’t omitted Houston’s Allah’s clarification. We’ve disregarded it. But only so after tackling what he said exposing his spin, gaslightng, baseless accusations, selective wording, omitions, distortions, hypocrisy, double-speak, exaggerations, fallacies and so on.
Which, if you did not know, are all forms of lying. Noticing a trend here T&L?
Lastly, we exposed his lies and fraudulent behaviour in the lead up to his clarification.
Here are the “clarifications” if you would like to scrutinise what we have stated.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/07/18/pull-the-allah-one-brian-part-1/
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/07/19/pull-the-allah-one-brian-part-2/
It’s difficult differentiating the brainwashed guests from the braindead guests.
I agree that so many churches want to be like hillsong, we have the anglican church, but even they have become very worldly.
I have never been to any Baptist or Methodist churches, maybe I should try them out.
but any church claiming to be evangelical, pentecostal, and charismatic are caught up in the seeker friendly nonsence.
I reckon within a year Brian “the big eagle” Houston will step down as senior Pastor and hand it over to Joel A’bell, i don’t think he can carry on much longer……
No way he would step down. Far too arrogant to do so. And if he does, he won’t hand it to A’bell, probably one of his sosn.
I’m confused as to why there is a Hillsong book add at the top of this page!!??
“I’m confused as to why there is a Hillsong book add at the top of this page!!??”
What’s really confusing is why a so-called ‘Christian pastor’ would: imply “Roman Catholics are helping to spread the Gospel”, and write a book “You Need More Money”, and say “Christians and Muslims serve the same God.”
Unless…. he’s not really a Christian nor a pastor.