Chris Rosebrough from Fighting for the Faith recently tackled Hillsong’s statement of beliefs in light of the Broadway couple controversy.
Chris Rosebrough writes,
Questions for Hillsong’s Leadership RE: Repentance & Homosexuality
I have questions regarding Hillsong’s doctrinal statement and how it relates to recent statements made by Hillsong’s leadership as it pertains to homosexual sins.
The Hillsong Church’s Statement of Beliefs (online source) clearly states:
We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.
Hillsong believes that a person (regardless of their sins) can receive forgiveness of their sins and the new birth through repentance and belief in Jesus Christ. This repentance then is demonstrated through a person’s submission to God’s revealed will, i.e. abandoning their sin and bearing fruit in keeping with their repentance.
That being the case, Hillsong’s Statement of Beliefs conversely teach that an impenitent sinner (regardless of their sins) does not receive forgiveness of their sins and the new birth. One of the sure signs of impenitence would then logically have to be an openly sinful lifestyle that is marked by open rebellion to God’s revealed will for our lives.
Since scripture is explicitly clear that homosexuality is sinful in both thought (Rom 1:24–27, Jude 1:7) and deed (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9–10, Jude 1:7), a person who claims to be a Christian who is openly and proudly participating in a same-sex relationship is, by definition, impenitent and should not be considered a Christian, yet alone a “devout Christian”.
Therefore, how can it possibly be loving to homosexuals (since dying in impenitence results in spending eternity in Hell), faithful to the scriptures and in obedience to Christ and His Word, for Hillsong to not boldly and publicly proclaim that homosexuality is a sin and call homosexuals to repent and receive Christ’s forgiveness and the new birth and then submit to God’s will for their lives, as their Statement of Beliefs so clearly says is necessary for salvation?
Is Hillsong’s Statement of Beliefs a sham? What’s the point of having a Statement of Beliefs if you don’t publicly preach and practice in accordance with what it says?
χάρις ἔλεος εἰρήνη σοι,
Source: By Chris Rosebrough, Questions for Hillsong’s Leadership RE: Repentance & Homosexuality, Fighting for the Faith,http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2015/08/questions-for-hillsongs-leadership-re-repentance-and-homosexuality.html, Accessed 19/08/2015.
Hillsong Church Watch 
“Hillsong’s copy/paste statement of beliefs”.
Copied from where?
I believe that as Christians our job is to not just love but act upon that love we have for others. I believe the fruit of love is peace, affection for each other, generosity, and so on. Just bluntly saying homosexuality is a sin or an evil spirit does not bring peace or affection toward the person saying that from the homosexual. This issue is so complex but real people are suffering every day because they think Christians reject them and hate them. We need to be sensitive, to hear the whole story of each individual. But I believe strongly that we need to tell them what the Bible says, what is the price of sin and then let them make a choice. If they choose according to the Bible let’s rejoice with them! If not let’s keep praying for them and keep showing kindness, mercy and just invite them for coffee or dinner and just chat, sharing the love, the peace and the joy of Christ through who we are! If God gave us free will who are we to want to force people to make the right decision!
Just my thoughts on the matter, I understand this is complex so please hillsongchurchwatch people no need to respond super harshly as you often do when someone is not 100% supporting your articles!
Cheers have a great day y’all
Gina:
“After the Supreme Court decision, Pastor Don Green of Truth Community Church in the Cincinnati area, was one of the first pastors to walk his congregation through the subject of homosexuality in a conference devoted to the topic.
Don used to be our boss at Grace to You until he was called to pastor a church plant. It originally met in the Creation Museum and now they have their own building.
The Conference messages can be downloaded in two areas currently.
At their Sermon Series archive and their Conference archive.
The messages are bold and clear and are a much needed encouragement coming from a solid man of God like Don.
Here is the list in order,
1. Refuting the Five Myths on Homosexuality
2. Why Homosexuality is Wrong
3. Scripture, Shellfish, and Homosexual Sin
4. Addressing the Heart of Same-Sex Attraction
5. The Future of the Church and Homosexuality
I believe readers will be exceptionally blessed by his thoughtful, caring, and convicting presentations.”
https://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/the-bible-and-homosexuality/
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
That pastor quotes a Gallup Poll stating that people in a same sex marriage or partnership in the USA is about c. 0.6% of the population, inferring that 99.4% of the USA is heterosexual and leaves it at that. But if you go to the very Gallup Poll he quoted from, it states that 3.8% of the USA identify as LGBT. He lied by omission. How can I trust the rest of his talks if he misleads within the first 15 mins?
From the American Psychological Association website that pastor quoted:
“What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.”
The pastor then said “end quote”. But it wasn’t, because he purposely left out the final sentence –
“Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx
In a bit over half an hour he purposely omitted two facts from pages he pulled quotes from. Why? Because it didn’t fit the point he was making. Terrible.
He tells any homosexuals watching on line: ‘Did I become your enemy by quoting statistics?’. He should try quoting statistics and information in context and not lie by omission.
Can’t listen to anymore right now.
“Can’t listen to anymore right now.”
How can you continue listening to Houston then? Since Houston lies by omission and twists verses? Try not listening to Houston for awhile, maybe that will make you feel much much better.
@churchwatch:
Thanks but I don’t see what your point is 🙂
I just wanted to say that sometimes Christians can be the ones causing pain, trouble, worry and burden to people who have a difficult and heartbreaking story by making broad statements especially about homosexuals. I don’t think telling someone “you need to stop being with your partner with whom you see your future, your family, your joy, because if you don’t you will rot in Hell” is very loving. Ask any of your gay friend… They are actual people, with actual feelings. And sometimes we are so busy wanting everyone to agree with the truth that we forget it a journey for people to get there and that taking their feelings, their story and overall who they are is MORE important for them to understand the truth than shouting I LOVE YOU BUT I HATE YOUR SIN.
Just my opinion though… I wanted it to be clear because it makes me sad to see my gay friends in what their are doing, but it makes me even sadder when people saying stuff like that makes them want to end their own life…
Cheers
Gina, a lot more attention should be given to presenting the Gospel *in full* to homosexuals – just as it should be given to every other person who does not believe in CHRIST. There is currently way too much attention on this one particular sin and not enough on UNBELIEF.
The Gospel cannot be rebranded and repackaged for certain demographics though. Jesus did not die on the cross for our sins so we could remain in our sins. He died to save us from our sins -including homosexuals. Our faith in Jesus Christ gives us the power to gain *victory* over sin -not just uneasy truce or improved prison conditions – including homosexuals.
In a way it’s insulting to homosexuals: Christians actually agreeing with homosexuals who’ve convinced themselves they’re SO spiritually handicapped that they can’t break free of sin no matter how hard they try. So some well-meaning Christians change the Gospel for homosexuals “…coz they’re *special*”, and they’ll give homosexuals gold stars and ribbons for any stumbling steps or stammering syllables that could – maybe possibly perhaps- be towards “making a decision for Jesus”.
A changed Gospel is a different Gospel. Only one Gospel – for straight AND LBGTQIA. http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/08/20/three-false-gospels-you-may-not-realize-are-in-your-church/.
““Hillsong’s copy/paste statement of beliefs”.
Copied from where?”
Just about anywhere where there’s a decent church that stands for truth @Newtaste.
In my journeys I have encountered a number of groups who have a more or less, “standard” Statement of Belief, but in interacting with them over time, I found that those ‘statements’ were a clever and convenient cover for what they really believed.
The leaders of one cultish group informed me very openly one evening, that what they published in that vein was a cover for their ‘other’ beliefs – they were actually Latter Rain, and they openly embraced heretics like William Marion Branham, just like the ‘Glory Gathering’ does in Brisbane, and many other ‘latter day’ apostates, such as Bill Johnson et al at Redding in the USA.
So a so called “statement of belief” is often a cover for doctrinal and practitional error, but it finds its use in engaging with innocent people, who often look for reassurance when they encounter a new religious group. Unfortunately, if the ‘beliefs’ as outlined in the ‘statement’ aren’t lived by the group, then all it has is a convenient and cunning piece of ‘shop window dressing’
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” Ephesians 4:14
The scripture enjoins us to ‘grow up’ to be mature and Christ-like, and not to be tossed around by every wind of doctrine (and the false teachers who promote them at various “conferences” each year,) so when’s it going to happen @Newtaste?
Probably never at Hill$ong, because everything they do there seems to stunt people’s growth… from false apostles, to false gospels, to false promises of prosperity, how could anybody ‘grow’ spiritually in that environment??? But never mind, Brian and Bobbie have a “statement of belief” covering their collective backs, so it’s all OK now, right…?
Are you gay Newtaste?
No. I’m pointing out that this guy starts out by lying. You accuse Brian Houston of lying by omission, yet you recommend a pastor who lies by omission.
“You accuse Brian Houston of lying by omission, yet you recommend a pastor who lies by omission.”
Brian Houston contradicts himself often. Why does it not bother you when Brian Houston contradicts himself? Do you give Brian Houston a ‘free pass’ because he’s special?
He’s not lying, Newtaste:
churchwatcher
have you seen this
30 Rules for the Hillsong Australia Preaching & Teaching Team
11 August 2015
Have you ever said something you wished you hadn’t? What about in front of thousands of people? Perhaps you don’t stand on any ‘physical platforms’… well, don’t disengage, this blog is still for you!
It wasn’t long ago that I presented these key points on Hillsong’s Culture for Preaching and Teaching to our Staff, even though many of them don’t speak on our platform on a weekend or even during the week. Yet, all of us do have opportunity in one form or another to speak into the lives of others and it’s always wise to examine the way we communicate, what we communicate and the impact it has on our audience. I’ve learned some valuable lessons over 30 years of preaching and teaching in public – many through my own error.
Culture, atmosphere and DNA in a church is not accidental. Just like culture, atmosphere and DNA of your home is not. You have to be deliberate about it – especially from the ‘platform’. Leadership in this area is about making intentional and focused choices, and taking a degree of measured risk.
So wherever you have the chance to input into others – take a look at these guidelines to building a strong platform teaching culture in your church or homegroup – many of them can also be applied to your family life or worklife. There are 30 points – one for each year of experience!
Every message…
1.IS POSITIVE.
Don’t preach to an individual – using the platform to get a personal message across to an individual is cowardly and blesses no one.
2.IS IN LINE WITH OUR BELIEF.
Don’t contradict basic fundamentals and doctrine. Make sure you know what they are BEFORE you take the platform.
3.HAS A SET TIME LIMIT.
Hillsong Church typically has a 35-minute time limit on messages. Be a good steward of people’s time. Be reliable. You can do a lot of waffling in 60 minutes! You are entrusted as a steward of the platform you are on – the moment you go over time, you are outside of your authority!
4.MUST BE PROVEN IN THE BIBLE.
If you can’t prove it, don’t say it. The platform is not for your opinions, it is God’s Word that matters. Every Scripture reference must be in context and within the tenure of Scripture = credibility and respect.
5.MANY HOURS OF MEDITATION, PREPARATION & FAMILIARISATION.
All 3 are important. 1) Think things through. 2) Get the structure as polished as you can – it must impact. 3) Be familiar with your message so you get it across clearly and effectively.
6.CHECKED FOR OVERUSE OF “I”.
It is not about you. People will see through a self-focused message and it doesn’t build others.
7.FOCUSED ON HELPING, NOT IMPRESSING.
Joyce Meyer once made a comment that really helped me with this, after I had asked her if she ever gets nervous? She said: “I never think about myself, I just think about helping people.” This attitude will keep your focus on course.
8.REINFORCING – NEVER CONTRADICTING – OUR CULTURAL VALUES.
Wherever you are speaking, you must respect the cultural values of that platform. Encourage the congregation to engage with what is local and relevant.
9.FROM A NEW TESTAMENT PERSPECTIVE.
By all means use the Old Testament, but always through the lens of the New Covenant of grace – through the cross of Christ. Otherwise we are in danger of preaching law and condemnation rather than building people up.
10.A REFLECTION OF THE LIFE YOU ARE LIVING, NOT JUST THE SERMON YOU ARE PREACHING.
Be authentic. The best messages come out of our own struggles and journeys. People sense authenticity as well as a lack of it. No matter how professional or eloquent you are as a speaker, you won’t build anything into people’s lives if you lack authenticity.
11.A REFLECTION OF YOUR PERSONALITY, NOT AN IMITATION OF SOMEONE ELSE.
This was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn but one of the most important. You’ll always be your best if you are being yourself – It’s not about being perfect or about a certain ‘style’. Be your best self and don’t use this freedom as an excuse to support rebellion or negativity.
12.AFFECTS PEOPLE’S MONDAYS, NOT JUST SUNDAY.
In other words, your message needs to be applicable to people’s daily lives. The greatest compliment someone who is doing well in life can give me is to say, “All I’ve ever done is to take the principles that have been taught in church and put them into practice.” – I love hearing that sort of testimony!
13.NOT STRAYING INTO THINGS YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND.
Stay within your boundaries. Keep learning, but don’t preach outside your understanding. Stick to what you know but also continue to grow in what you know and in your knowledge of the Word. 1 Timothy 3 in The Message says of the leader, “He must know what he is talking about”. Preparation is a discipline.
14.REFLECTING WHAT WE ARE FOR, NOT AGAINST.
Remember, our lives should reflect what we are for and not just what we are against. Preaching always against things leaves people feeling downcast.
15.LEAVES PEOPLE FEELING BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES THAN WHEN THEY CAME IN.
I intentionally approach every service by trying to create an encouraging environment. The world doesn’t input positive messages into people very much – between the newspaper and the television, people are starving for messages of hope and encouragement!
16.EASILY TRANSITIONED INTO AN ALTAR-CALL.
If people are being impacted and reached during your message, then the altar call moment will be a smoother and easier transition. (HOWEVER, you cannot let your confidence be measured by how many people get saved when you speak.)
17.NOTEWORTHY.
Are people taking notes? Make sure people understand what you are saying, that there is substance to it, and that you are not boring. Be compelling and helpful to people.
18.SEES HUMOUR AS A BONUS, NOT THE GOAL.
Humour is a tool, but it is not the goal. If you are not good at being funny, don’t try. Any use of humour should serve the message – but never build your message around a funny story or joke.
19.PREACHED FROM NOTES YOU’D BE PROUD TO SHOW ME.
You should have some content in your notes: Key statements, scriptures, examples. Content – not neatness – is the goal. Your notes should reflect the hard work you’ve put in.
20.EXALTS JESUS AND BRINGS GLORY TO GOD.
Be deliberate about this. “God” means many things to many people, so ensure you are presenting Jesus. People don’t need motivational speeches, they need the Word of God and AN EMPHASIS ON Jesus Christ.
21.REFLECTS YOUR LEVEL OF AUTHORITY.
Speak within your sphere of authority, not outside of your credibility. Unless you have the right credibility or platform to confront and challenge people, then don’t. It is always better to encourage people.
22.PROJECTS CONFIDENT HUMILITY.
Minimise “I”, “me” and “my”. Be confident, not weak or false. I know who I am and that God has entrusted me with the platform. I know I belong here, but at the same time, I recognise I didn’t earn the right and I am accountable to Him for how I handle it. It’s about bringing glory to God – keep the main thing the main thing.
23.COMBINES FAITH WITH TRANSPARENCY.
It’s not about exposing and highlighting our strengths and weaknesses, but balancing these examples to enhance the message – our weakness or strength is not the message. It’s not about being ashamed of the blessing but people benefit more from understanding the journey and challenges that you had to overcome to get there. People relate to and learn more from your struggles – don’t present yourself as perfect. Conversely, don’t be negative and down all the time – people need to be encouraged in their faith; they want to listen to an overcomer.
24.TELLING NOT JUST WHAT, BUT HOW.
It’s more challenging to tell people how to outwork the principles we teach. I remember early in my ministry a man came up to me after I preached on loving God with all your heat, soul and strength and he said, “I want to do that, but how do I do it?” It’s easy to tell people what they should do but more challenging to tell them how.
25.LEFT BEHIND ON MONDAY.
Don’t do post-mortems or beat yourself afterwards… AND be careful not to get too full of how great you think you were. Time moves on. Be good at walking away.
26.FOCUSED AS MUCH ON DELIVERY AS CONTENT.
If you aren’t good at communicating your message, then no matter how good the content is, it will get lost on people. Say it in a way that best connects with the hearts of people.
27.AWARE OF A GREATER AUDIENCE THAN THE ROOM.
The days are long gone when the possibility of being recorded in one form or another is absent – whether by individuals on phones or corporately on cameras or sound-systems. Even though you may be speaking to church family, you have to remember your message will more than likely go beyond the family – so nothing is entirely safe in that sense. Filter everything you say through this reality.
28.LISTENED TO OR WATCHED BY YOU.
Ask for a copy of your message for review and don’t worry about appearing proud by asking – it’s a necessary part of growing as a speaker. Get used to how you sound and get past the ‘cringe-factor’. By observing and listening to yourself, you will notice habits and other distractions that you can fix. Learn to love the way you sound – if you don’t, no one else will.
29.HELPING PEOPLE OVERCOME AND BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT THEM.
Without exception. Remind people about what God says about them – there’s a lot of opposition in the world and you have an opportunity to lift people up and speak life to them – maximise it
30.ABLE TO STAND ALONE IN A NEWSPAPER.
Every message should include points that would stand alone in the newspaper. For example, years ago I wrote a book with a controversial title. I was young at the time and thought it was a great idea to use a controversial title. But as Hillsong’s profile (and my own profile grew), I may as well have drawn a bullseye on my forehead. It became fodder for journalists wanting to criticise it’s content. Let’s assume everything you say is quotable and can be published in a newspaper – how does it stand then? Think about how would you sound without your spirit and physical presence on it – quoted in black and white?
Always take responsibility for what you say and never assume anything. It is an enormous responsibility that we have when it comes to carrying the message of Jesus Christ to this world. Ignorance is never an excuse, so decide today that you are done with excuses. Apply wisdom and understanding to the message on your life and the platform you have been given – and the potential and influence on your life will continue to grow and extend well ‘above and beyond’.
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this guys seem to be the experts on everything, hillsong collected is a advice blog from hillsong church globally.
“7.FOCUSED ON HELPING, NOT IMPRESSING.
Joyce Meyer once made a comment that really helped me with this, after I had asked her if she ever gets nervous?”
Joyce Meyer… LOL!
Joyce Meyer’s salary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Meyer#Salary_and_finances
This is not how followers of Jesus Christ are supposed to live.
John 13:16 (KJV) – Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Only 1 teacher quoted in the tutorial, and it is not only a false ‘teacher’, but even is a woman ‘teacher” at that… LOL!
Oh dear. Poor old Jesus obviously went “over time” during His ‘sermon on the mount’… A whole 3 chapters!
Brian would’ve kicked Him off the platform for doing that…
Sad little man making up 30 rules and regulations due to the absence of any Holy Spirit guidance for himself and his followers… woeful at best…
Its possible they have method to their rigid tutorial’s madness.
Enforcing their 35-minute regulation, paul would never had killed Eutychus by causing him to fall from the window. And, by enforcing shorter false teachings it leaves more time to expound the benefits of tithing. And, leaves more time for happy entertainment.
I personally believe that the time limit in the church is a great thing.
My church always starts on time and finishes on time, and that makes is great so you can invite people for lunch at a set time, you know that if you invite a non-christian to church you can tell them when it finishes and they can plan the rest of their day… I was born and raised in Switzerland which is the country of chocolate yes but also watches haha! So I guess that’s why i liked that point!
But seriously I believe a pastor or a church leader should honor and respect people’s time, especially if there are a lot of unchurched non-christian coming to the service. It’s a small detail but it can go a long way!
I’ve been to Hillsong a few times and one thing they do is that when they have a ministry time that goes over the time set they explain from the platform that the service is over but those who want to be ministered to or want to stay in the service can. So people who have planned something are guilt-free to go and the others can stay in the presence of God.
I just wanted to make it a little clearer cause sometimes we can think people make silly decisions about things (35-minutes messages… what a stupid rule, you are limiting the power of the Holy Spirit by setting a time-frame!) and that’s legitimate but knowing the why behind the what can help at times!
I like coming to this place even if your views are often so far form mine, it helps me think through and i like having my views challenged a little bit.
Have a great day people!
Well @Gina, I suppose we’ll have to pass the tithe bucket around and buy the Holy Spirit a watch… 🙂
Only be careful which brand of Swiss watch you buy 😉
“He’s not lying, Newtaste”.
In the first talk he deceptively indicates that the number of homosexuals in the USA is about 0.6%. Then in the second talk he says there are homosexuals everywhere he looks, Hollywood and even in sports. He goes from saying there is barely just above zero homosexuals to saying they are everywhere.
No he doesn’t lie, does he.
In a shouting angry voice, actually sounds like the front row is getting covered in the froth coming out of his mouth, he says he doesn’t hate homosexuals he loves them. If anyone told me, in the way he said it, that they love me I’d turning around and walking away.
When I was going through problems a few years ago, sinking deeply into on-going sin and not repenting, people ear bashing me and shouting and telling me I was doing wrong didn’t work. I got worse. I got out of my sin not by listening to them, but by eventually listening to Jesus, reading my Bible and going to church as often as I could, and meeting and befreinding people who loved me regardless. And I repented of my sins, said sorry to God, he forgave, and I said sorry to the people I had hurt and they forgave me. And I turned my life around.
Shouting at people and condemning them to Hell, as that pastor is doing is not going to show Jesus to anyone. Showing them the love of Jesus will.
Ps. Don Green is hosting a conference specifically to address the issue of homosexuality and the bible, addressing believers, Newtaste – the “beloved”. If only Houston would display such godly anger towards those who abuse God’s sacred word. But that won’t draw the crowd and the favour, will it Newtaste? Your admiration for Hillsong and Houston always seems in opposition to what the bible actually says about sin and wolves disguised as pastors.
Yes the media does portray the sense of homosexuals are everywhere and are many. And the world has fallen for the lie.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2015/08/20/outlasting-the-gay-revolution-michael-browns-new-book-plus-some-fun-interaction-toward-the-end-on-other-important-matters/
Brapharma said:
“Only 1 teacher quoted in the tutorial, and it is not only a false ‘teacher’, but even is a woman ‘teacher” at that… LOL!”
In Islam the women aren’t allowed inside the mosque to pray with the men, the women stay outside. church watch is probably thinking about instituting that at their churches to absolutely ensure that the women don’t talk at church. Good idea Brapharma?
As usual, your argument is with God, not us, Newtaste:
“Only one verse prohibits women to teach men, so it doesn’t apply to the whole church” – Matt Slick
“Another objection raised by egalitarians in support of women pastors and elders is that there is only one verse that prohibits women to teach men. If it was for the church as a whole, it would be mentioned more than once.
First of all, if it is true that the Bible teaches women shouldn’t teach men, even if it is only once, then the argument is settled. Once should be enough, but the egalitarians don’t give up that easily. So, let’s look at why their argument has problems.
1 Tim. 2:12 is within the context of Paul’s comment in 1 Tim. 3:15, which says, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” So, the context of 1 Tim. 2:12 is within Paul’s instructions for the church–the household of God.
Second, as is argued in the article In 1 Tim. 2:9-15, is “a woman” is a specific individual Paul had in mind?, the text does not support the idea that Paul is referring to a single woman at a single church context.
Third, how many times does God have to say something for it to be true? Since the command is given, admittedly only once, and since it is in the context of how we are to conduct ourselves in the household of God, then we can conclude that once is enough.
Fourth, if something must be mentioned twice for it to be applied to the church universally, then what do egalitarians do with Hebrews 10:25 which says, “not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.” If a universal command for the church needs to appear more than once, then Hebrews 10:25 is not for the whole Church. Is this a sound principle on which to derive doctrinal truths? Not at all.
Also, what about Matt. 28:19-20, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The Great Commission is only given once by Jesus. Does there need to be a second witness for it to apply to the Christian church as a whole? Of course not.
Conclusion
How many times does God’s word have to say something for it to be true? Once is enough. Therefore, the argument that the command in 1 Tim. 2:12 does not apply universally to the church because such a teaching occurs only once is false.”
https://carm.org/only-one-verse-prohibits-women-teach-men-so-it-doesnt-apply-whole-church
But in an emergency situation a woman can be a pastor, writes Matt Slick.
“Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the Word of God be preached and the Gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the Gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in Scripture, and thereby show her submission to it.”
https://carm.org/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders
To selectively quote Slick: “it is far more important that the Word of God be preached and the Gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the Gospel be spoken”.
“church watch is probably thinking about instituting that at their churches to absolutely ensure that the women don’t talk at church. Good idea Brapharma?”
Standard Brian Houston tactic. Diverting my very truthful comment to your very foolish supposition.
Note to NT: The funny thing is if you held Brian Houston to the same set of standards which in desperation you try to hold the Church Watchers to, you would have to leave Hillsong.
You know @Newtaste, you often call the CW mob “cowards” because they hide behind various ‘nomme de plumes’, (and with good reasons too – I’m sure that Brian would hire a whole room full of lawyers if they ever did reveal their true identities) but you hide behind your own little mask too, don’t you?.
Where is your courage? In fact I’m still waiting for you to reply to my last few posts that were directed at your typical lame duck responses, but you are nowhere to be found on those posts… are you?
So maybe you’re the real coward @Newtaste…
You are assuming I read every comment post here. I don’t
No No No @Newtaste… your tendency is to go after the ‘four musketeers’ in order to try and disprove their facts, and write them off as mere assertions at best… the rest of us are just ‘crumbs off the table’ to you. (arrogance)
When ‘Plan A’ fails, you then resort to ‘Plan B’ – that is, assail the integrity of the ‘musketeers’ by claiming that they are hiding behind ‘handles and gravatars’ just like you! (hypocrisy)
When both plans ‘A and B’ have failed, you then resort to unwarranted obfuscation, and forlorn claims that “others quoted here are lying” or that the CW mob weren’t there (as if you were present at all of Hill$ong’s shady events) and so on. (diversion)
So you can see why now,, people either tend to jump all over you (seeing you for the apostate supporter of Hill$ong that you are,) or they simply yawn at your posts and move on…
If you want some decent dialogue here @Newtaste, then you’ll have to ‘be the man’ and admit when you are wrong – you might even gain some respect from other posters, but I doubt it.
Your ‘street cred’ is sadly lacking nowadays @Newtaste, but you did that to yourself the moment you started to support the views of a known heretical cult leader and his entourage…
Perhaps it is time for you to re-examine your grossly misguided loyalty to the Hill$ong money making cult, and redirect your energies to another genuine organisation of believers that are actually impacting society for the Kingdom of God, and not the kingdom of Brian and Bobbie… Surely the differences are glaringly obvious by now…
“No he doesn’t lie, does he.
In a shouting angry voice, actually sounds like the front row is getting covered in the froth coming out of his mouth”
Newtaste also resorts to ‘Plan C’ (Ad Hominem) when he has nowhere else to go, as above.
Newtaste – Matt Slick has some homework for you.
Email this to churches that affirm women pastors and elders
by Matt Slick
Here’s something you can do to promote biblical fidelity. If you find a church on the web that affirms women pastors and elders, perhaps you might want to copy the text below the line and send it to them in an email. Check it out and see if it is something you’d like to do. Just copy the text and paste it in an email at carmstuff@yahoo.com. If you want, let us know you’ve done this.
Maybe we’ll post some replies from churches on CARM, too. It should be interesting.
_________ For Churches that affirm women pastors and elders _________
We believe that you want to honor the word of God and teach His Word in truth which is why we are contacting you. We notice that you permit women pastors and/or elders. 1 Pet. 3:15 says to give an answer to everyone for the faith that lies within you. So, we are asking you to give an answer as to why you allow women pastors and elders in light of what the Bible says:
1 Tim. 2:12-13, “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.”
Titus 1:5-6, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.”
1 Tim. 5:17, “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.”
1 Tim. 2:12-14 is where Paul explicitly states that he does not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet (“quiet” is hesuchia, not complete silence but respectful quiet)–because Adam was created first. In 1 Tim. 3:15 we are told this is how we are to conduct ourselves in the household of God. When a woman is a pastor and/or elder, she is in a place of authority over men. Paul clearly tells us this authority in the church structure is not the place for a woman because Adam was made first. This is not a cultural issue. Remember, Eve sinned first; but sin entered the world through Adam and not Eve (Rom. 5:12) because Adam was in the position of authority. This is why husbands are the head of the wife even as Christ is head of the church (Eph. 5:23). The place of authority in the church and family is not the place of the woman.
In Titus 1:5-6 it says that the elder must be “the husband of one wife.” The Greek is literally “man of one woman.” This same phrase is used of the Bishop in 1 Tim. 3:2 and the Deacon in 1 Tim. 3:12. Remember, Paul is speaking of church officers–not servants (diakonos) in homes (Rom. 16:1, 27). So, the pastor/elder is to be a man of one woman.
1 Tim. 5:17 tells us that the elders are to receive honor–especially those who preach and teach. Therefore, the pastor is an elder by definition, and the elder is to be a “man of one woman.” The word “elders” here is masculine in the Greek. So, Paul is telling us how the church is to operate (1 Tim. 3:15), and that the place of ecclesiastical authority is based on male eldership because Adam was created first (1 Tim. 2:12-13). This is doctrine–not culture.
Some say that women pastors and elders are not an essential issue, so we should not worry about it. If that is the case, then why did God tell us women are not to teach or exercise authority over men (1 Tim. 2:12-13) in the church (1 Tim. 3:15)? Why did he tell us that an elder is to be a “man of one woman” (Titus 1:5-6) if we are not to worry about it?
What about equality and verses with women in leadership?
Gal. 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This verse is not about women pastors and elders. It is about salvation–in Christ, not church eldership, so it doesn’t apply.
Deborah (Judges 4, 5) was an Old Testament Judge–not a New Testament elder. Prophesying women (Acts 21:8, 9) are not elders/pastors. Priscilla (Rom. 16:3, 4), a fellow worker in Christ, is not said to be an elder/pastor. Phoebe (Rom. 16:1) is a servant (diakonos) of the church–not an elder/pastor. Note that Jesus came not to be served but to serve (diakonos) (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Junia (Rom. 16:7 (see http://www.carm.org/junia) may have been a female apostle (not one of the 12) though this is debated. Still, even if she were, apostles are not for today; and an apostle is not a pastor/elder. The Chosen Lady of 2 John 1 is an honored woman–not a pastor/elder. Basically, the standard verses cited by people to support women being pastors and elders do no such thing.
What about a woman who is called by God to minister as pastors and elders? Essentially, this is making doctrine based on a woman’s experience. Just because a woman “says” she is called by God or feels she is doesn’t mean she is because it isn’t biblical. God’s word is the standard–not our feelings and experiences.
Why is this important? This is important because compromise in one area often leads to compromise in other areas. Even if the biblical position is not popular or politically correct, it is biblically correct. As Christians, we must never let compromise seep into the Christian church and weaken it. If Christians refuse to submit to the teaching of God’s word in this matter, can they be trusted to rightly deliver God’s word to us in other matters?
We hope for a response and kindly urge you to seriously consider this brief article. If you are interested in more in-depth material on this topic, please go to http://www.carm.org/women-in-ministry.
Do you disagree? If so, then please answer two questions. 1) How can an elder/pastor who is a woman be “the husband of one wife,” lit. “a man of one woman,” (Titus 1:6)? 2) How can a woman be in a place of authority as a pastor/elder and not violate 1 Tim. 2:12-13 where Paul clearly says he does “not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man?” This is what it says, and there aren’t any qualifications to it. What do you do with it?
Please understand that we believe women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the Church; but we also believe that God’s word is supreme, that it is above our desires, above culture, and that we need to adhere to what God tells us and not substitute it with a feeling or even an experience. The health of God’s church is linked to its dependence on God’s word, and pastors and elders will be held responsible before God for what they teach.
Finally, research shows that the majority of churches and denominations that affirm women pastors and elders often then adopt pro-homosexual and pro-abortion positions. We are not suggesting you are doing this; but it is important to note that when compromise occurs in one area of scripture, it is easier to compromise in another. See http://www.carm.org/denominations-women-ordination-and-other-errors for documentation on what tends to happen.
So, where do you stand? Do you care? Are you seriously dedicated to God’s word? We hope for your response, http://www.carm.org/contact-carm.
________________
Hey folks I’m going off topic for a moment. I’ve just been made aware that Hill$ong Brisbane City ‘Campus’, which used to meet at the old Mett nightclub in Wickham Street Fortitude Valley, has recently moved up and around the corner to the Judith Wright Centre (essentially an art gallery with studios and meeting rooms attached,) in East Brunswick Street…
Here’s the links for Hill$ong’s local website:
http://hillsong.com/brisbane/city/
and the Judith Wright Centre itself:
http://judithwrightcentre.com/
So, perhaps Hill$ong Brisbane City is dumping off the nightclub crowd and going after some more ‘creative’ people…?
I wasn’t sure just where to post this update, so feel free to remove it to somewhere more appropriate…
Of course, a large part of the ‘nightclub’ crowd in the Valley area would have been the Wickham pub mob – openly ‘gay’ since 1996:
http://thewickham.com.au/
Just thought you’d all like to know. This puts Hill$ong City “campus” at a more respectable distance from all the ‘sinners’ in that part of town, and allows them to engage with the more affluent ‘arts’ community, but still well within range of “Millionaire’s Row” in Anne street…
So what’s to lose by dumping off the down market ‘clubbies’, in favour of the $$$ moguls who are just about to move in.
Does it really matter where you worship Mammon on $unday morning???
Enlarging there worldwide footprint continues making Hill$ong seem more legitimate to outsiders. Im constantly finding evidence for their expansion turning up everywhere. No wonder there yearly income keeps growing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong_Global_Project
“I’ve just been made aware that Hill$ong Brisbane City ‘Campus’….. has recently moved up and around the corner to the Judith Wright Centre (essentially an art gallery with studios and meeting rooms attached”
Perhaps Hillsong is planning to commence doing shows of Phil Pringle’s ‘artwork.’
I can hardly wait to purchase one of those ‘masterpieces.’
“In Titus 1:5-6 it says that the elder must be “the husband of one wife.””
Can you point me to anything Matt Slick has written that pastors cannot be single, because a verse he is quoting to justify his stance against women pastors would also infer, using his interpretation, that pastors cannot be single as they MUST have a wife??
I’m thinking no, you can’t.
Matt Slick
Another point raised by the egalitarians to justify that women can be pastors and elders is to say that the term “husband of one wife” can apply to both men and women. They even claim that this is supported in a book from someone who claims to have seen the phrase applied on an ancient tombstone of a woman. The book is titled “Familiar Leadership Heresies Exposed”; but, I can’t find it anywhere—not Google, not Yahoo, not Altavista, not Amazon.com. Without the book, verification cannot be established or the evidence cross-examined. So, this appears to be nothing but hearsay promoted by the egalitarians.
Since all we have to work with is the New Testament text, let’s examine the phrase . . .
1 Tim. 3:1-2 “It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.”
Titus 1:5-6, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.”
Let’s look at each one. The Literal Greek of 1 Tim. 3:2 is,
It is necessary then the overseer be above reproach, a one woman man, temperate, sober minded, respectable, loving strangers, able to teach.
The overseer is to be a one woman man. In the Greek the word “overseer” is in the masculine, singular form. It could be similarly rendered in English by saying something like, “the actor must be above reproach, a one-woman man.” It would make no sense to say, “the actors must be above reproach, a one-woman man.” Also, it would make no sense to say “the actress must be above reproach, a one-woman man. The point is that the person who is a one-woman-man must be a man.
Let’s take a look at Titus 1:5-6. ” . . . appoint elders . . . if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife . . . ” The word for “elders” in Greek is “presbuterous.” It is the masculine plural. This is like the actors versus actresses thing again; the first is masculine plural, and the second is feminine plural. To continue, Paul then says, “if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife.” So, among the elders Paul says any such man must be above reproach. Literally, Titus 1:5-6 says, ” . . . appoint older men as I directed you. 6if someone is above reproach a one-woman man, having children who believe . . . ”
Here it is a grid that will help explain what is happening.
Greek ει τις εστιν ανέγκλητος μιας γυναικος ανήρ
English if someone is unreproachable of one woman man
Parsing CS OIFMSN V3SPAI JMSNX JFSGX NFSG NMSN
Parsing Explained conj. pronoun,
masc/fem,
sing.,
nominative verb, 3rd per,
sing., present, adjective,
masc.,
sing., nominative adjective, fem., sing., genitive noun, fem. sing., genitive noun, masc., sing. nominative
The word “someone” τις has a form that can be both masculine or feminine (like ‘person’ in English). But it says that the “someone” must be a “man of one woman”; hence, we must view it as the masculine form. Since the word “man” isn’t there where “someone” τις is, in the Greek, various translations differ and render “someone” as “anyone” (Darby, ESV, YLT), “man” (ASV, NASB, NKJV, RSV), “someone” (HCSB, NRSV), “any” (KJV), and “elder” (ISV, NCV, NIV, NLT, GNB). But, that isn’t a problem because we know that the someone must be male, the husband of one wife.
Literally, it is “man of one woman” which is why it is translated as husband of one wife. But some will object and say that this would mean that a man couldn’t be an elder if he wasn’t married. However, this isn’t the issue. In the culture, people were married early. It was normal and expected. Paul is talking about monogamy as opposed to polygamy which he says the elder must hold to being a “man of one woman”–not a “man of more than one woman.”
Furthermore, if the literalness of being married is used to refute the idea that the elder/pastor must be male and married, then the elder must also have more than one child since verse six says, “having children who believe.” Are we to say that a person can’t be an elder if he isn’t married, or that he has to have two or more children? Of course not. Instead, Paul is telling us that the elder is to be a man of one woman who has a family that is Christian.
But note . . . it is a man who is to be the husband of one wife/man of one woman who has believing children. This cannot be filled by a woman.
How is is possible for a woman to fit that criteria? It isn’t. Therefore, the office is for males only.
Apollo, I’m wrong a lot of the time, and I admit that, I’m a sinner.
And that is of no relevance to church watch and their pursuit of the perfection of others.
And, btw, Brian Houston doesn’t need me to defend him, Houston is more than capable of defending himself.
“Apollo, I’m wrong a lot of the time, and I admit that, I’m a sinner.”
But you don’t repent NewTaste. You justify your idolatry and love your sin.
“And that is of no relevance to church watch and their pursuit of the perfection of others.”
Our message is the gospel and our standard is God’s Word. You reject the gospel and the Word, remaining in your sin. You are free to comment as an unrepentant sinner. However, it is our hope that you turn from your idolatry and be transformed by Christ’s atoning sacrifice and lordship; born a spiritual person that clings to Jesus and not to men.
We still allow you to comment because you are the perfect evidence and poor fruit that Hillsong produces. Both Christians and non-Christians see it.
And we still appreciate your commentary and correction occasionally. It’s good getting a number of perspectives from people inside the Hillsong movement.
“And, btw, Brian Houston doesn’t need me to defend him,”
But you do defend him. All the time in fact.
“Houston is more than capable of defending himself.”
Capable? When he failed to be capable, you’ve tried to defend him (if you can call it a defense).
… Houston.
“Capable.”
That made our day.
“And, btw, Brian Houston doesn’t need me to defend him, Houston is more than capable of defending himself.”
Then why do you return nearly daily to defend both Brian Houston’s words and actions, Newtaste?
Let’s not forget Brian Houston has now been exposed as a liar, as demonstrated in the Hillsong New York gay worship leader story timeline.
And Carl Lentz “ranting” on this podcast.
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/08/21/podcast-josh-duggar-scandal-now-what/
For those interested in defending the biblical position on homosexuality:
http://thecripplegate.com/a-biblical-perspective-on-homosexuality/
Newtaste thought he was an avatar
Somebody fiddled with his gravatar
New taste New taste can you can you
Tell me where the fresh goat’s listed on the menu… 🙂
Bad enough for one to be on ‘milk’, looks like Newtaste is on goat’s milk !
I’m at the same time repulsed and not surprised at the exchanges here. Name calling, faux clever, caddy put downs, accusations of lying (who can say they never have), juvenile poems, and the seepage of sickening self-righteousness. It all smacks of “I thank you Lord that I am not like other men”…when we all should be in the back of the synagogue, head bowed, eyes not looking up, knowing what sins we have committed.
I’ve visited Hillsong (Sydney) and my son went to their college 3 years. He returned home excited about what he saw God doing in his life and others, completely spirit-filled. He avoids divisive topics and arguments over ‘endless genealogies’, yet not sacrificing sound doctrine. But he does not engage in miopic fixation on a ‘sin’ that the church and Christians have historically used as litmus tests to determine if you are included in ‘the club’. His commission is to ‘love God, love your neighbor…’.
In my days in Christian school it was dancing, smoking, drinking, long hair, watching ‘R’ rated movies (or any movies according to some)…today the issues are weightier because they challenge the core of our beliefs. Several years ago my father, before he died, was an elder at his church and he asked my brother and I what we thought about ‘the abortion issue’ as far as activism was concerned. He said some in the congregation felt their church needed to do more to stop abortion. My response was that if their church could, in one fell swoop, end all abortions worldwide, it would not result in the salvation of a single soul. I felt the church needed to stay true to its mission, and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.
I’ve read several things Brian Houston has said in this topic of gays and I see no contradiction. He maintains the biblical stance on homosexuality and does not permit gays in leadership roles any more than he permitted his father to when his fathers sins were exposed.
It’s a very Christ-modeled approach, as Christ ‘ate and drank with sinners’ (note not a single gospel account addresses him booting from his company gays, or tax collectors, or anyone). Those who were in his company, heard the word and whom the Holy Spirit convicted turned from their previously sinful lives, those who did not left his company and fellowship. Why is it okay to condemn Houston for essentially opening the doors of the church to accept sinners, all sinners, to the hearing of God’s word, and the experiencing the love of our community?
“It’s a very Christ-modeled approach, as Christ ‘ate and drank with sinners’ (note not a single gospel account addresses him booting from his company gays, or tax collectors, or anyone). Those who were in his company, heard the word and whom the Holy Spirit convicted turned from their previously sinful lives, those who did not left his company and fellowship. Why is it okay to condemn Houston for essentially opening the doors of the church to accept sinners, all sinners, to the hearing of God’s word, and the experiencing the love of our community?”
Yes @RB, but unfortunately, none of that happens at Hill$ong. Christ-like behaviour is far from the leaders exhibited behaviours, and that of many of their followers…
The main themes appear to be “You Need More Money” so Brian and Bobbie get an untaxed and unaccountable increase on their 10% tithe commitment, and of course, “Kingdom Women Love Sex” where Bobbie Houston gets to talk about things that should never be mentioned from a pulpit…
“I’ve read several things Brian Houston has said in this topic of gays and I see no contradiction. He maintains the biblical stance on homosexuality and does not permit gays in leadership roles any more than he permitted his father to when his fathers sins were exposed.”
Perhaps you need to read this article before you commenton the ‘gay’ issues at Hillsong:
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2015/08/13/discussions-with-carl-lentz/
So perhaps RB, you can fill us in on the bits we missed out on (in terms of Christ -like behaviour) when those two books were published, and when Brian Houston told a lot of lies, on a number of topics ???
“my son went to their college 3 years. He returned home excited about what he saw God doing in his life and others, completely spirit-filled.”
So what? Are we to base our lives on your ‘experiences’, or on what the Bible says? As with all other Hillsong supporters, your childish criteria is “experiential / superficial”, rather than maturely asking the *obvious* question “Are they Biblical.”
“when we all should be in the back of the synagogue, head bowed, eyes not looking up, knowing what sins we have committed.”
Do not pretend. You have no interest in the entire council of God. You discard: Jude 1:3, Eph 5:11, Acts 17:11, 2 Tim 3:16, 1 John 4:1, Acts 17:10-11, 2 Tim 4:3, and many other verses. Also the Bible also says not to whimper, instead we can come BOLDLY to the throne of grace. The apostles were not in the back of the synagogue remaining silent, they were out proclaiming and defending the faith with every fiber of their being.
“It’s (Hillsong is) a very Christ-modeled approach”
Again, you’re another “Look at all the ‘good’ Hillsong is doing”, rather than asking the Berean question ”Let’s compare Hillsong to Scripture.”
Jesus never told his followers they would be rich nor successful nor they ‘needed more money.’ He told them the complete opposite. To not even take a purse, sandals, or money. He told Peter that Peter would be crucified upside-down. Do you not think Peter was spirit-filled?
And which version of ‘gospel’ are you following? You “claim’ to follow Jesus, but do not ‘follow’ what He said to do. That is called “false piety”, which Jesus often eluded to:
Mark 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
What you are living is your own personalized, fairy tale, ‘version’ of Christianity, not found in the Bible… that false live-and-let-live “love gospel.”
Luke 12:51: Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
“Do not pretend. You have no interest in the entire council of God”
Neither you Lazarus, nor Apollo, know anything at all about me…yet you make far reaching judgments on what I believe. Apollo comes to similar conclusions of the Houstons.
For the record, I accepted Jesus, the son of God, as my Lord and Saviour, as the sole source of my salvation. I believe in the infallibility of God’s word and the message of his love for me, an undeserving sinner saved by grace.
I sense nothing of grace or love or forgiveness in your tone, only bitterness and hate. If I were unsaved, what would possibly attract me to your witness any more than Westboro Baptist would.
I can assure you RB that I am no Westboro Baptist, and I have been a believer for some 37 years… This blog does not exist to persecute those who hold a differing view, but rather to challenge those (Hill$ong generated) views, in light of what the Bible clearly teaches on a range of topics. Many people such as yourself, have come here to paste us us with their version of events, but they have not done any investigations themselves.
They don’t know anything about the real Houstons, or the real Hill$ong. It has taken years of study and research for the CW team to draw their conclusions and mount credible articles on all of Hill$ong’s shady dealings – years, and yet you think that you can “dive bomb” this blog with 5 minutes of your verbiage and convince the readers??? Better go and make a coffee RB, and keep on reading the blog…
I’m afraid RB, that you’ll have to do a lot more homework before your words can be taken seriously, meanwhile, countless thousands have come and gone from this money making cult (they never release stats on who’s left or why,) and many of these former ‘Hill$ongers’ are no longer “singing their songs” any more, and all for good reasons.
The carnage of destroyed lives, both young and old, would probably fill up a significant amount of space on the Internet, if it were gathered in one place (not a bad idea CW?) and people like you would take a long time to read it all, if you bothered to do so.
So, I encourage you RB to read any internet sites that challenge the Houstons and their Hill$ong kingdom, because it is definitely NOT the Kingdom of God… It is based on New Age imagery (‘Colour Conferences’ and rock music special events.)
Money – remember Brian’s book “You Need More Money”? (now withdrawn from sale due to embarrassment.)
Then there’s Bobbies “Kingdom Women Love Sex” – I’m still waiting for you to point out from those two books, where both Brian and Bobbie have exhibited ‘Christ like’ behaviour… Nothing to say about them? I’m not surprised…
Then there’s their lavish lifestyles – beach side property, fancy motorbikes, international travel, and various financial ‘schemes’… Strange isn’t it RB, how Jesus and the Apostles never lived like that, and yet Houston claims that all he has is “the blessing of God” – but not the gathering of $60+ million a year from gullible people???
Money and sex? Sounds like both of those titles would be found in any worldly bookstore, but not on the front counter of ANY Church bookstore… but then again, Hill$ong isn’t a ‘real’ church is it RB…?
I Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
Read Ephesians chapter 4 for full context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4&version=KJV
4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
1. Where is the love of doctrine and clear bible teaching in Hillsong?
2. How much sleight of hand should be tolerated by Christians “before enough is enough? e.g. Houston substituting bible translations mid-sermon to avoid word sin.
3.Why are you willing to overlook Hillsong’s cunning craftiness? e.g. misleading media RE Driscoll appearance at recent Hillsong Conference (live -> Driscoll interview was recorded and played instead), Carl Lentz refusing to give clear position on homosexuality in interviews… why should the world be more discerning than Christians?
4. Are you aware of Houston’s contradictions and backflips RE sermons? e.g. telling church road to salvation is wide (compare Matthew 7:13-14)
5. Speak truth in love, not love in truth. Well-meaning Christians like yourself need to get your priorities right. Jesus said “I am the way, the TRUTH and the light…” (John 14:6), not LOVE. It is not loving to let Christians remain spiritually deceived.
6. Are to grow up … how is that possible without sound doctrine from the *bible* ever preached *in context*? Does Houston EVER take a bible passage and teach on that passage alone?
7. In Christ – whose focus is Hillsong’s – Christ or Hillsong church/ the listener?
P.S. there is one thing you and I agree on – *personal* attacks i.e. the person NOT their position/ Hillsong’s position are totally unnecessary and of no good to the Body of Christ. I have been disappointed at the malice of some recent ones especially.
“faux clever, juvenile poems, and the seepage of sickening self-righteousness”
“But he does not engage in miopic fixation”
“If I were unsaved, what would possibly attract me to your witness any more than Westboro Baptist would.”
You call those words from you “gentleness and respect?”
“I sense nothing of grace or love or forgiveness in your tone, only bitterness and hate.”
Let me remind you, it was you yourself who ventured onto this site, to ‘set things straight.’ One is obligated to examine your post through the lens of Scripture and truth. That is not bitterness nor hatred. If anyone is hating, it is your stormtrooper attitude evident from your 1st paragraph.
“yet you make far reaching judgments on what I believe.”
We have quoted facts about Hillsong, quoted Scripture, and quoted you. Examining RB’s words against Bible text was not making ‘far reaching jusdments on what she believes.’ Did you post words other that what you believe? Why would you do that? That makes no sense.
“Apollo comes to similar conclusions of the Houstons.”
So then I suppose you can tell us how much time Apollo has spent studying Hillsong? And how much time Apollo has spent involved in cult groups himself? Let’s compare how much time you have spent studying Brian Houston’s methods. I’m afraid yes both Apollo and I do know more about Hillsong than you.
“If I were unsaved, what would possibly attract me to your witness any more than Westboro Baptist would.”
And likewise what would attract me to yours? Your insults? Your experiences? Your stormtrooper attitude?
When people compare RB’s post or Houston’s teachings to the Bible, you have reckoned that to ‘Westboro.’ Yours is the same tactic that gays use against Christians who quote the Bible. Brian Houston makes similar accusations against his critics also, calling anyone who disagrees with him ‘wicked.’ That is what dictators do. Brian Houston is a dictator, sometimes taking over entire churches, other times siphoning off members from other churches. Westboro is an indefensible cult, as is Hillsong.
Amazingly, even that one single verse you quoted, you yourself have violated in your brief stay.
No poster here will ever cease speaking the truth about Hillsong, regardless of how adamantly you object, or how vehemently you deny the truth about Hillsong. Hillsong is a lie, founded upon other lies.
The word Hillsong and the Hillsong logo are trademarks. You are using it not only in the domain but also displaying the logo without permission. You are either incredibly stupid, naive or very rich and willing to defend yourself in a court of law which is incredibly expensive if Hillsong decide to take you on.
I can bet that they would have enough change in the bank to seriously dent any challenge.
Maybe you should think again about your bold plans to ‘expose’ Hillsong because if you have ever had any experience in being sued, you should already know you are in for not only some serious pain but also some significant, outrageous, expense. Priced a Barrister lately?
It would probably even stretch to defamation with some of the comments posted on this blog which clearly destroy the credibility and reputation of a person or institution.
Good luck you are likely to need it.
“The word Hillsong and the Hillsong logo are trademarks.”
Good point, David. Could you tell us how many trademarks Jesus had? Or the twelve disciples? Or the apostle Paul? Could you perhaps show us in the Bible exactly where we are advised to corporatise the Church? Perhaps you’d like to remind us how archaeologists found a balance sheet and a profit and loss statement along with the Dead Sea Scrolls? No?
“I can bet that [hillsong] would have enough change in the bank to seriously dent any challenge.”
Really? I thought that hillsong used their considerable profits to expand the kingdom and perform good works – preaching the Gospel, helping the poor, and all that sort of thing. Are you telling us that hillsong have been stashing their gains in the bank? How interesting. I bet the faithful tithers in hillsong would be surprised to learn that they are parting with their hard-earned money in order to ensure that Brian Houston’s so-called “reputation” can be defended at law should the need arise.
“[…] if you have ever had any experience in being sued, you should already know you are in for not only some serious pain […]”
What about you, David? Do you know what it is like to fall into the hands of the Living God? No? Then you have absolutely no concept of what pain is at all, do you?
“Good luck you are likely to need it.”
Just as the Israelites needed some “luck” when they were trapped by Pharaoh at the Red Sea? Do you remember how that turned out, by any chance?
Brian Houston is going to pay dearly for his preaching of a false gospel, and you are clearly quite keen to put your hand up as an avid supporter of his. Where do you think *your* luck is going to come from on the day you are judged, you sanctimonious white-washed wall?
“The word Hillsong and the Hillsong logo are trademarks”
And the word Hillsong came from Geoff Bullock – the man who was trashed by Hillsong.
“It would probably even stretch to defamation with some of the comments posted on this blog which clearly destroy the credibility and reputation of a person or institution.”
It’s not defamation if it’s true. Looked up the definition of vexatious litigation recently?
Looked up the definition of Trademark infringement lately?
“It would probably even stretch to …”
David, Do you think it would stretch as much as the Heresies taught by these Word of Faith ‘churches’ stretch the truth?
“Good luck you are likely to need it.”
What does ‘luck’ have to do with anything? Is that a gnostic teaching? Do you consider yourself a Christian? Point out some verses describing ‘luck.’ Do you believe in karma too? Brian Houston teaches Christians and muslims serve the same God, does he also teach Christians and muslims have the same ‘luck?’
Every reply is either an attack on Hillsong or me.
Clearly I have hit a raw nerve.
There is no recognition or agreement in any replies that your website and display or use of other people’s trademarks is against the law and in addition to that also wrong.
Doesn’t God ask everyone to obey the law of the land?
Romans 13:1-7 states, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
So therefore clearly this website is either just a bunch of bitter people with a bad taste in their mouths from a bad Hillsong experience that they learnt a hard lesson out of
or
a troll site that is making use of Hillsong’s high ranking in the Google serps to make some pocket change from Amazon which likely has a clause in their affiliate agreement contract that breaking trademark law is unaceptable use of Amazon and promotion of associated products.
“David” – here’s a link to a general overview of defamation law in Australia – you might like to spend some time reading it before you post any further ‘comments’ in relation to that topic:
http://www.artslaw.com.au/articles/entry/the-new-uniform-defamation-laws/
The same website also has information re Trademarks in Australia…
‘Good luck with that one…’
“Every reply is either an attack on [h]illsong or me.
Clearly I have hit a raw nerve.”
Clearly you are are an idiot who is defending other idiots. If you want to see what a raw nerve looks like, check out Brian Houston when he is confronted with truth.
You still haven’t answered the question: do you need more money? Yes or no?
“Romans 13:1-7 states x, y, and z….
So therefore clearly this website is either just a bunch of bitter people with a bad taste in their mouths from a bad Hillsong experience that they learnt a hard lesson out of
or
a troll site that is making use of Hillsong’s high ranking in the Google serps to make some pocket change from Amazon which likely has a clause in their affiliate agreement contract that breaking trademark law is unaceptable use of Amazon and promotion of associated products.”
David, or possibility #3: You have no clue how to interpret Scripture.
It’s number #3.
@’David’
“Romans 13:1-7 states, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
Yes indeed it does ‘David’… and at the same time,’the governing authorities’ are the very ones who write the legislation, which establishes courts of law and their various jurisdictions. Both criminal and civil courts are established ‘under the crown’ and are there to administer justice in either vein, so that’s where the adversarial system of jurisprudence comes from in this country ‘David’.
This simply means that both plaintiff and defendant have the right to appear before a magistrate, and present their respective cases, so that truth may be established, and wrong doers may be dealt with. In our system, it is up to a judge AND jury to determine guilt or innocence in civil cases.
What Paul is talking about in Romans 13, is the departmental, administrative arm of government, including the police (vis a vis – the “man with the sword”) who is a part of that judicial process of “arrest, charge, trial, verdict…”
Under ancient Roman law, a person was viewed as guilty by the state (as is still the case in some European countries, that were formerly a part of the Roman Empire,) , and then had to prove their innocence to the satisfaction of a Roman court bench. In our system, the defendant is seen as ‘innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt’ and a jury of his/her peers must find them so.
So what is your point ‘David’, seeing there have been no civil court cases mounted by Hillsong thus far…?
Disclaimer: Please note that none of the above constitutes either legal or other professional advice, but is simply a brief and general overview of the Australian court system, as I understand it to be and the scriptures as I understand them to be.
“This simply means that both plaintiff and defendant have the right to appear before a magistrate, and present their respective cases, so that truth may be established”
So what you are saying is that there is no truth in hillsongchurchwatch using a registered trademark without permission until it is proven in a court of law?
So your case is “grey” so to speak because what you are saying is that you believe you are not infringing a trademark because it is unclear whether or not you have not used the words hillsong or the hillsong logo on your website?
And
in our system, it is up to a judge AND jury to determine guilt or innocence in civil cases – and in this case it would be to unclear to a judge AND jury if you have used the hillsong word (registered trademark) in the domain name or the logo on your website?
Have I got it right now?
Actually ‘David’ no you don’t have it right at all.
Due to the “presumption of innocence” a person or a group of people must be found guilty by the legal process, regardless of what it ‘looks’ like they may be doing.
That’s why we have a justice system ‘David’, so that innocent people will be protected and guilty people will be punished. What is it that you don’t understand about that simple summary, ‘David’???
There are a number of online articles within the Australian legal context, written by lawyers that suggest that a trade mark may be used on occasion, in order to identify the person/legal entity/corporation that is being discussed in an online forum, but there seems to be no law stating just where the said trade mark is to be placed.
However you are not allowed to use/misuse a trade mark in order to deceive people into believing that you are the corporation (eg: Hill$ong) that has title to the trade mark, but there is no suggestion of that occurring here, is there, ‘David’…? Churchwatch is NOT Hill$ong, is it ‘David’?
Go find the articles for yourself ‘David’ – I won’t do it for you, but they are there…
What you are witnessing Apollo is the totalitarian mindset of the guilty trying to defend the Hillsong cult. These are the same one’s that enforce people to “love” and “judge not lest ye be judged.” They are the law or above the laws ofGod. They twist Jesus’ words and person into a totalitarian dictator.
And this is because they have been indoctrinated by the Hillsong cult to fight like this in the first place.
These people are too be pitied for their malicious and uneducated attacks at people like us who defend the Christian faith and operate rightly under the laws of this land. These cults will take advantage of or abuse the laws of this land to destroy any people that oppose them. Just look at how Brian Houston is now trying to do this in defending his actions for covering up his father’s crimes in the Royal Commission.
“you have used the hillsong word (registered trademark) in the domain name or the logo on your website”
So David, you may be dimly aware that Jesus said “Freely you have received, freely give”. Could you please point out to us where He added a caveat to that statement regarding registered trademarks? Did he say somesome like “… except in the case of trademarks, because if you are going to profit from the Gospel, you will need to do everything necessary to protect your financial interests, up to and including seeking redress at law where it proves expedient to do so”?
You are a blind and clueless moron who cares nothing for God or people; you reserve your affections for this world and the trappings thereof. You are a true disciple of Brian Houston, whose reward is in this life, and so you will defend that posturing pretender to the very hilt. What do you think – will the hillsong “trademark” be found in heaven? I can tell you most assuredly that it will not, and it won’t be found in the place that you are going to, either. On the contrary, at the end of days when the earth and the heavens are consumed by fire, nothing of this age will remain except that which was brought about through faith in Christ. hillsong’s precious “trademarks” will be joining the wood, hay and stubble of the “good works” performed by people like Brian Houston and yourself, and there will be no remedy for the fierce judgement that will be poured out on your head. Instead of commenting here you’d be best advised to eat, drink, and be merry, because your days are numbered, and the clock is ticking.
“Instead of commenting here you’d be best advised to eat, drink, and be merry, because your days are numbered, and the clock is ticking.”
David, and don’t forget to put the best quality fire-retardant suit at the top of your Christmas “wish list”…
“Suggest that a trade mark may be used on occasion, in order to identify the person/legal entity/corporation that is being discussed in an online forum, but there seems to be no law stating just where the said trade mark is to be placed”
So do you think that using the trademark in your domain and specifically focussing your website on content of the trademark applies?
Why don’t you try and register mcdonaldsburgerwatch and see how far you get?
You are probably fortunate it is hillsongs trademark you are infringing because if it was any other corporate they would likely roast your bottom and it would be you that would need the fire retardant suit….+ your cheque book.
“Why don’t you try and register mcdonaldsburgerwatch”
Because McDonald’s doesn’t preach a false ‘gospel.’
“Why don’t you try and register mcdonaldsburgerwatch and see how far you get?”
So you can’t get any traction or score any points on the subject of hillsong, and now you want to change the subject to hamburgers?
Wow, you’re really good, aren’t you? Somebody here asked if you are a lawyer, and even though you never answered that question (or a lot of other questions), it is crystal clear that you must surely be a hot-shot legal practitioner who is right at the top of his game. I mean really, talent like yours just can’t be hidden, can it? Sure, some here have written you off as a try-hard know-nothing loser, but they’re just jealous of the sublime skills with which you dazzle the crowd – the compelling logic of your arguments and the forthright manner and unparalleled eloquence with which you state your case. Brian Houston must be very, very proud of you.
Thanks for the ‘legal advice’ David – I trust that you are a qualified lawyer and are licensed to give it on a public forum. I hope that you don’t get into trouble with the Bar Association for doing so… They take a very dim view of people giving ‘unqualified’ advice…
But then again, we’re just a bunch of “nomme de plumes” – people who use fake IDs in order to shield ourselves from Brian Houston’s bevvy of lawyers, who are just waiting to pounce on us for exposing his shady dealings, false doctrines, shabby treatment of former ‘Hill$ongers’ and his general lack of accountability to both God and (the tax) man… So, in his mind, we probably pose no direct threat to his ungodly empire beyond a kind of ‘nuisance’ value. It’s just “business as usual” back at headquarters… right?
The ‘bold plans’ to expose Hill$ong have been ongoing for some years now, but Brian seems unwilling to launch any legal action against the blog, seeing that the lawyers for the defence could/would ask the court to order him to release certain documents (legal, financial/bank statements, correspondence, investment portfolios, etcetera) which he would never release in a million years, otherwise, as they may well show that much/most of what is said on this and many other blogs is true…
So David, you have a nice day tomorrow, and we’ll just get on with the blog… 🙂
“we’re just a bunch of “nomme de plumes” …. The ‘bold plans’ .. have been ongoing for some years now …. we’ll just get on with the blog”
Are you one of the predestined five, or a member of the extended cult?
Speaking of “cults”, noticeably humorous is that your avatar is Black and Yellow. That was most surely unintentional, nevertheless it has long been considered a ‘satanic’ color combination.
I just knew this was a bad idea to comment at all here. I should have known it would be met with gnashing of teeth whenever I posed an opinion that veered outside of lockstep with the majority of bloggers, I’ve grown up in evangelical, fundamental church, went to christian school (studied NT greek from 7th-11th grade), so I know how this works. At best, a divergence of is met with a condescending “I’ll pray for you”; at worst, I would be called a heretic or false prophet (or be told to do homework, or have a cup of coffee). Whatever. My apologies for ‘dive bombing’ your site, apollo.
I will refrain from further posts as I clearly inflame some/most. Anything short of preaching to the choir will always be met with invective. Christians, as some say, ‘shoot their wounded’. Take away the christian backdrop from a couple of posters in particular and I strain to discern any difference in the tone I would imagine between a shiite or sunni going at it.
Though a request that is an exercise in futility, no doubt, I just ask that you consider these three things:
1 – In the NT, Paul takes to task the Corinthian church (I Cor 5) for sin in the church. In other epistles he isn’t shy about calling the church out on other issues. Yet in the same epistle (I Cor), he writes the ‘love chapter’. My point is this, why does it become necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater here? is Hillsong perfect? No, but are any churches perfect? No. Is Billy Graham perfect? I suspect he would say no. Are you saying any and all individuals associated with Hillsong are a cult? Paul’s example is one of calling out the sin, but not abandoning the fellowship of believers there…irrespective of the sin mentioned in I Cor 5. He wanted that person living in sin out, and condemned those who permitted it, but he didn’t abandon the fellowship of believers there.
2 – In Revelation, John, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes of the seven churches. Some (Smyrna and Philadelphia) were commended without reservation, but some, specifically Sardis, were condemned because they considered themselves alive but were not. I instantly become wary of churches that I’ve attended that proclaim ‘they’re known as the friendly church’, or ‘that they’re the church who does all the great things in the community’, or ‘stand for the Word’. My point is that a humble acknowledgement of our frailties and sins, as opposed to slapping ourselves on the back for a job well-done, seems more appropriate.
3 – Finally, I Cor 13. What was mentioned in an earlier post, and I paraphrase ‘it’s about the way, truth and life, not love’. I disagree…it’s both. What Christ also told the rich young ruler, what is the greatest commandment, and the second one. “love God…love your neighbor’.
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
I can’t say I’ve enjoyed this. I’m at the same time disappointed yet not surprised.
“At best, a divergence of is met with a condescending “I’ll pray for you”; at worst, I would be called a heretic or false prophet (or be told to do homework, or have a cup of coffee). Whatever. My apologies for ‘dive bombing’ your site, apollo.”
Oh come on now RB – you can give it out, but you can’t take it? Seriously, I haven’t seen anyone call you a heretic or a false prophet, but you do need to make that coffee, sit down and take in the wider picture here…
Sure, there are some people with very strong views expressed here, but that is up to the moderators as to what they will allow and for how long. By the way, it’s not ‘my’ blog either, but I do appreciate the opportunity to read other’s opinions, facts and testimonies, and respond to them using scripture – and some common sense!
If you are offended by poster’s responses so far then you might be a bit “thin skinned”, but time spent on the blog might toughen you up a bit. I’m sure that the CW team will welcome your continued input if you just keep it civil and not lash out at everything and everyone on the first or second pass…
Hill$ong has made its own thorny bed of unresolved issues and they must lie in it, but when challenged to respond to those issues in light of solid Bible teaching, their tendency is to write off their critics and just move on in the most blaze’ manner.
You won’t find that attitude here, generally speaking RB, but if you are willing to apply yourself to the issues at hand and discuss them in a reasonable manner, then it’s probably OK for you to ‘agree to disagree’ on some of the more major topics.
It is not wrong to exercise or express critical thinking, in fact, that is what most ‘modern’ church goers fail to do. They just swallow the Hill$ong or other church ‘company line’ without thinking or questioning the leader’s statements and/or actions, and don’t compare any of that with scripture.
Trolls and trouble makers have been put going many times before… so there is a limit as to what you may be allowed to say, but generally speaking, I have found the CW sites to be patient and yes, even understanding, as many of us have had to flee our former churches because of the global apostasy now taking place, in once time honoured churches and ministries.
“Do unto others, what you would have them do unto you” RB…
Since you are likely to dismiss keep love chapter in context (need to look at previous spiritual gifts/ following “speaking in tongues”/ church structure chapter) since it’s from a “unloving critic” of Hillsong:
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Biblical_Studies/New_Testament_Commentaries/1_Corinthians/Chapter_13
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=46&c=13
https://bible.org/seriespage/28-love-knows-no-limits-1-corinthians-131-13
http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_corinthians_commentaries.htm
Love and truth do not cancel each other out. It appears Hillsong believers/ supporters believe they do. For your own sake please research bible on how much God loves the truth/ loathes lies and deception.
by persistently pushing only “love” verses, (while ignoring all verses unrelated to “love”), you are saying this: “i demand that you people accept BH’s false teachings and any perceived dishonesty.. no matter what.. no questions asked.. period..”
that is what you really want from us. we cant in good conscience do that because we are Christians..
if BH repented of everything pointed out, all blogs like this would immediately go away. thats the solution. failure to address the problems isnt the solution. there isnt a person here who would not “love” to see BH repent, that “is” love, but he has no interest in addressing certain problems.
BH would rather eisegete verses to support “success”, and “hear things from God” (noone else seems to hear), and do a full court press bringing still more false teachers to the 2016 conference. how can anyone in good conscience support that?
this small enclave of truth has rejected the huge lie, which you are defending. nobody here wants any part of it.
WHO do you think 2 thessalonians 2:3 is talking about? its not talking about buddhists.
blogs like this exist to prevent well meaning brethren from falling into the dangerous 2 thessalonians 2:3 whirlpool. thats not hatred towards anyone. dont read any more into it than it is.. nfg
Wow. Lots of aggression here. Why so many arguments in the thread? Is there a Christian moderator?
“Lots of aggression here. Why so many arguments in the thread?”
So sorry that this site has offended your ever-so-delicate sensibilities. Obviously it should ideally be run by a lily-livered, double-minded, mealy-mouthed man-pleasing powder-puff – perhaps we should check if Brian Houston is available to take on the role, do you think?
“Christians, as some say, ‘shoot their wounded’”
Brian Houston is not wounded – he is a dead man walking.
“Christians, as some say, ‘shoot their wounded’. Take away the christian backdrop from a couple of posters in particular and I strain to discern any difference in the tone I would imagine between a shiite or sunni going at it.”
RB, How negative. I have been a Christian for a few years and have never heard another Christian talking like that.
No way to know what you’ve gone through, but your comments make you seem cold, judgmental and bitter.
What a colossal waste of my time. I knew this was a mistake when I read the tenor of the posts.
Your posts smack of the same smug self-righteousness of which you claim to detest.
You have now re-branded “truth” and/or “opinions other than your own” as a ‘bad tenor’, and accepting anything other than your own views as ‘a colossal waste of time.’
You feel the need to successively flash more and more ‘credentials’, as though you are ‘pulling rank’, to enforce the notion that you are the only correct person in the discussion.
That is “unteachable.”
What ‘colossal waste of your time’ really means… is that your hissy fits have become irrelevant towards addressing the dishonesty taking place at the highest level within this group of ‘churches.’
In addition, you act as though major doctrinal errors, were only small disagreements.
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be ACCURSED.” [Galatians 1:8]
Maybe you should dust off your ‘Greek’ on that word for a refresher.
“What a colossal waste of my time.”
Look on the bright side, RB: there’s no real cost involved, because your time isn’t worth anything.
“I knew this was a mistake”
So you can spot a mistake well enough but you’re still one to hold a candle for Brian Houston. You must be the king of cognitive dissonance.
“at worst, I would be called a heretic or false prophet”
Nah, I wouldn’t call you anything like that. I’d call you an ignorant git who is full of his own importance – an arrogant preening nonentity who is in love with the sound of his own voice. hillsong have taught you well, haven’t they?
“I will refrain from further posts as I clearly inflame some/most.”
LOL: what you really mean is that you will put on a brave face as you slink away from the kitchen whose heat you can’t stand. Let’s hear a big round of applause for yet another gormless hillsong apologist who doesn’t quite have the stomach for a stoush!
“What a colossal waste of my time.”
Your time??? You only had to read our posts 1 time. Do you realize maybe 500 people wasted their time reading yours??? Talk about a colossal waste of time… Wow. How selfish.
Well @”tenpinbowling”??? I suppose that I am at least ‘predestined’ to answer your post (not sure what happens after that Newtaste…)
I am part of the body of Christ and as such, am charged with the following:
“it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3b
And that is what I do – when opportunity presents itself and I feel that I can write it on this and other blogs then I do so. (There’s plenty of other ‘Hill$ong expose’ blogs out there, you know, you should try some of them and get some perspective…)
As far as calling the posters here ‘an extended cult’, you’d be hard pressed to prove that Newtaste, as we come from far flung places, and also come from some very divergent church streams too. We’re not all ‘Reformed’ or Baptist or Anglican or of other Evangelical backgrounds.
Some are Pentecostal or even claim to be mildly ‘Charismatic’, so for you to try and lump us into one insignificant little “cult” is not only ludicrous, it’s virtually impossible.
Most of us never get to meet, at least regularly, and even if we did, that would not qualify us to be a ‘cult’ as such.
In Christian circles, it is those who hold to heterodox doctrines and practices that are regarded as sects and cults. Add in control, manipulation and deception and you have a good foundation for the Hill$ong cult and others (such as the Glory Gathering up in Brisbane,) as they are very good at all of those things. Money raking too!
I am not “brianwashed” to mindlessly follow any so-called church leader like the acolytes and devotees of Hill$ong, or any other Mega Church based cult, like Houston’s and Pringle’s followers are. They don’t read their Bibles and are preprogramed to believe that we ‘are the enemy’, whether we are, or not.
While there may be (strong) differences of opinion in regard to ministry roles and gifts of the Spirit etcetera, when it comes to contending for the faith (the gospel and orthodox doctrines,) you’ll find that we pretty much “sing from the same page…”, so why don’t you join us for a verse or two, Newtaste? You might enjoy the break from Hill$ong United and their barrage of unbiblical rock music for a change…
By the way, I just love your new gravatar ‘Spring collection’ – it really suits you and your own divergent views on everything “Hill$ong”… 🙂
Breaching a registered trademark has nothing to do with how much tax you pay or do not pay to the tax office.
Dan Kreider:
“Houston and Lentz have made it clear that, for Hillsong churches, the answer to the question “Is homosexuality a sin?” can never be a straightforward and Pauline “yes.””
http://gracemusicgroup.org/2015/08/25/hillsong-and-the-issue-of-association/
Brian Houston has given a straightforward and Pauline “yes’. In the Hope 103.2 interview in late June 2015, Houston said that homosexuality is a sin.. But people ignore that.
Newtaste – since you represent yourself here as the expert on all things Hillsong, can you provide us with an expository sermon Brian Houston has preached on the topic of homosexuality?
Expository preaching as in comprehensive biblical explanation, verse by verse.
You are clearly the experts in all things Hillsong. This whole website is all about Hillsong.
No way I’m going to be able to find a sermon by Brian Houston specifically about homosexuality. Unlike some pastors Houston doesn’t seem to be obsessed with the topic and think it is leading to the end of civilisation. Thomas Aquinas believed that all the devastation in his time was the result of the sins of rampant homosexuality, and seemed to believed the end was near because of it. Aquinas was wrong, as is a more recent homosexual scare monger Fred Nile. Sin is sin.
“Unlike some pastors Houston doesn’t seem to be obsessed with the topic and think it is leading to the end of civilisation.”
@ Newtaste,
This statement shows your casual, laissez-faire attitude towards unrighteousness, false teaching, repentance, and sin.
You’d have a hard time convincing Sodom and Gomorrah of your worldly theory, if you had the opportunity.
“No way I’m going to be able to find a sermon by Brian Houston specifically about homosexuality. Unlike some pastors Houston doesn’t seem to be obsessed with the topic … ”
So newtaste, would you have any trouble finding a Brian Houston sermon about money?
While we wait for Newtaste to provide Brian Houston’s expository sermon on homosexuality, here’s a link to the recent conference that Newtaste “hated”.
All sermons are transcribed for easy reading if that’s your preference.
http://www.truthcommunitychurch.org/sermons/series/the-bible-and-homosexuality
Breaching a registered trademark has nothing to do with how much tax you pay or do not pay to the tax office.
Hey churchwatcher/apollo? No comment to my comment?
Or does the law not apply to you?
You are clearly breaking the law. No one needs to be a lawyer to see that.
“Thanks for the ‘legal advice’ David – I trust that you are a qualified lawyer ……. a public forum.”
I don’t think you have a public forum here – you have a ‘blog’ and you are clearly attacking not only whichever church organization or individual you don’t agree with but also any commentor that you don’t agree with.
Being the moderator/owner/register of the domain would this not be opening yourself up for some serious litigation? I hope you have some good legal advice. Your disclaimer also says “Generally we agree but not always”.
Good luck with that one – you will need it if anyone decides to take you on.
“Brian Houston’s bevvy of lawyers, who are just waiting to pounce on us for exposing his shady dealings, false doctrines, shabby treatment of former ‘Hill$ongers’ and his general lack of accountability to both God and (the tax) man”
Australian law has nothing to do with Brian Houston’s money or your breaking of the law on your website. You are clearly breaking it by using Hillsong’s trademark. Don’t take this the wrong way – but one could say it comes across like you haven’t done your homework which makes one question the credibility of all your arguments and the testimonials you have on the rest of your website.
“The ‘bold plans’ to expose Hill$ong have been ongoing for some years now, but Brian seems unwilling to launch any legal action against the blog, ”
Doesn’t mean they won’t in the future and look at all the ammo you keep giving them. They must be loving that.
“seeing that the lawyers for the defence could/would ask the court to order him to release certain documents (legal, financial/bank statements, correspondence, investment portfolios, etcetera) which he would never release in a million years”
Can’t see why an IP Trademark Lawyer would need to produce legal, financial/bank statements, correspondence, investment portfolios, etcetera to protect a copyright or trademark?
But it’s ok – just ignore it. Breaking the law is irrelevant isn’t it?
“So David, you have a nice day tomorrow, and we’ll just get on with the blog…”
Yes – just get on with your blog – because chances are if you do, you will likely find yourself in a whole world of pain you obviously have never experienced before because if you had experienced this type of litigation – you would be removing sections of this website immediately including the domain name.
But no – you keep going. We are loving the entertainment and it can only get better.
Speaking from experience of course….
All the best.
Well David what a bunch of silly remarks that was. But as to my original al line of questions/comments, are you a qualified lawyer – yes or no?
And if not, then why are you here? Just another troll??? Maybe…
“Or does the law not apply to you?”
How ironic that you should ask that. Brian Houston has not deigned to humble himself before God in order to accept the grace that is extended in Christ, and so he himself remains subject to God’s law. He will, as things currently stand, be judged on that basis. On that day, there will be none to rescue him – and certainly no barristers in the offing to plead his case.
(Talking of barristers, I note your comment that they are quite expensive. Perhaps I should study law on the basis of Brian’s advice that “[I] Need More Money”, eh?)
“But no – you keep going. We are loving the entertainment and it can only get better.”
Speaking of entertainment, how did you like that Hillsong Monkey Dancing, David?
Very spiritual, huh?
“Perhaps I should study law on the basis of Brian’s advice that “[I] Need More Money”, eh?”
Or use the HS approach and just find some good tithers.
“Hillsong Church @hillsong
“All backgrounds, all situations, all ethnicities are welcome in God’s family.” – Ps @BrianCHouston #LiveLoveLead hil.so/lllbook”
But not everyone is welcome at church watch.
We welcome Christians New Taste. Hillsong persecutes them and drives them out when Christians start comparing what Hillsong says to the bible.
We’ve heard crazy stories where Hillsong insiders have been stalked.
That’s because the posters and moderators here have standards Newtaste… Something that is sadly lacking in many church circles nowadays, as is evidenced by the global falling away from those Bible standards that Christ and His apostles set in place – it’s called the New Testament.
The NT is a covenant set in place by God, concerning the sacrifice of His own dear Son – something that the false prophets fail to understand. They just think that Jesus is a means to an end – property, money, notoriety, influence and a whole host of other materialistic gains, whether they are tangibles or intangibles, seems to matter little to them.
Perhaps you should dump off your lame translation (if that’s the problem) and get a meatier copy of the NT, and start again Newtaste… Some of the folks here like the ESV, others seem to like the KJV, but if you’re attached to anything like “The Message” then I can understand your lack of understanding…
“All backgrounds, all situations, all ethnicities are welcome in God’s family.”
In God’s family, yes…. At Hillsong, no…
Brainwashed Newtaste has quickly forgotten how Frank Houston’s victims and Tanya Levin didn’t make the grade. Oh, and Ben McCormack would be marked as ‘reject material’ for Hillsong ‘salvation’ also.
“But not everyone is welcome at church watch.”
Seems like Churchwatch ‘gots da guts’ to allow a lot more critics speak than Brian Houston’s Twitter does.
“That’s because the posters and moderators here have standards Newtaste…”
What standards are breaking trademark and copyright laws?
This site is just a troll site trying to make money from Amazon affiliate pennies…..
David you’re back again…
Are you a lawyer? What contribution can you make by asking those kind of questions? If CW was worried about that “legalese” stuff he’d have done something about it by now.
By the way David, “do you need more money???” Ask Brian – he’s got heaps (some of it’s probably yours…)
“What standards are breaking trademark and copyright laws?”
Hey David, it is written: “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.”
That commandment would apply to anyone who appropriates God’s name to build an empire and amass fame and fortune, and such impenitent blasphemers and godless idolators will spend their eternity in the lake of fire – there will be no escape for them.
God’s word is like fire, and like a hammer that breaks rocks into pieces. On the day that Brian Houston belatedly discovers that to be the case, I can assure you that “trademarks” and “copyrights” will be the last things on his mind…
“By the way David, “do you need more money???”
‘David’ needs more common cents.
“This site is just a troll site trying to make money from Amazon affiliate pennies…..”
Actually, hillsong is a cult whose income is derived from making merchandise of the Gospel.
“Actually, hillsong is a cult whose income is derived from making merchandise of the Gospel.”
So what is the difference then between hillsong making money and this website making money from amazon affilates?
Is this not the same thing?
We don’t make any money. We just hope people can get their hands on good discernment resources. Amazon was just the easiest place to find all the product.
“Is this not the same thing?”
No doubt you would answer in the same way if asked to differentiate between tares and wheat, as shown by the fact that you are quite unable to comprehend what Brian Houston is.
You have no discernment. You have said that you are “speaking from experience”, but the sad truth is that you have no experience, having learnt absolutely nothing from those things to which you have been exposed. Just like every other hillsong adherent who has commented here, you are spiritually bankrupt: you have nothing of substance to offer regarding the things of God, and have subsequently been reduced to whining and empty threats.
Tell us this, David – do you need more money? Brian Houston has said that you do – is he correct, or are you going to call him a liar? Tell us what you think, since you you are a Spirit-filled overcomer who belongs to the mighty hillsong. Show us your mettle, and demonstrate for us the power and wisdom of Brian Houston – display that anointing which has also been bestowed on you, his faithful disciple. You’re not just another IQ-challenged coward who’s going to be put to flight by a few disgruntled bloggers, are you?
“So what is the difference then between hillsong making money and this website making money from amazon affilates? Is this not the same thing?”
Oh Dear. Another on-fire hillsong puppet.
Don’t Christians and Muslims serve the same God? “Serving God the Father” and “serving allah”, is this not the same thing?
Hey Jeffy boy, the experience part was nothing to do with hillsong. It was to do with litigation. Try to get the content right before making a comment next time otherwise you just look silly.
Also I am not sure what makes you think I am “mighty hillsonger” as I don’t recall ever saying that but all I have pointed out was trademark infringement.
Its just the trolling nature of moderators of this website that put you in a specific box regardless of what you say.
“Hey Jeffy boy, the experience part was nothing to do with hillsong.”
I didn’t say that it did – I said “you have no experience, having learnt absolutely nothing from those things to which you have been exposed.” That includes anything and everything to which you have been exposed, whether spiritually, professionally or otherwise, and is a self-evident truth given the fact that you are nothing more than a boorish, ignorant git who has a vastly inflated sense of his own importance.
“Try to get the content right before making a comment next time otherwise you just look silly.”
I assume that you mean “try to get the *context* right”. Why don’t you try to use the correct word; otherwise you just reinforce the idea that you are a pompous windbag who doesn’t have a clue.
Speaking of “merchandise.”
Normally I don’t like NLT but I like the way the way they worded it this time.
2 CORINTHIANS 2:17 NLT
“You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ’s authority, knowing that God is watching us.”
2 PETER 2:3 NLT
“In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.”
Seriously enjoying your gravatars Newtaste, they’re probably saying more about the “real you”. The Newtaste we would prefer to interact with.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“This site is just a troll site trying to make money from Amazon affiliate pennies…..”
Are Frank Houston’s victims nothing more than worthless ‘trolls’ to you too, Newtaste?
Hypocrite.
I didn’t write that.
Troaz – That was David’s comment, not Newtaste’s.
Yes CW, that was ‘Davids’ comment, but the question must still be asked, as it is a key question, considering all that has passed at the Royal Commission:
“Are Frank Houston’s victims nothing more than worthless ‘trolls’ “?
Perhaps because in the eyes of many people, it hasn’t been adequately answered as yet…
Houston and Hillsong should be persued to the ends of the Earth so that justice can be done for any victims of any abuse that was purpetrated on church members, by dictatorial leaders and/or their minions…
Well at least Brian wasn’t on Ash Madison. But Sproul’s son was. I don’t suppose that will get much airplay here though.
Not a fan of Sproul.
Yep, this is a troll site. Nothing more.
“Yep, this is a troll site. Nothing more.”
If this is a troll site and you have commented here, then you have obviously been trolled. You aren’t too bright, are you?
Internet Troll definition
“A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.”
Hence what this site is. Arguing for the sake of arguing but a slight twist is they are making cash from Amazon Affiliates.
“A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.”
Then aren’t you glad we don’t focus on trivial issues. After all – victims and the Royal Commission have found the information on our site very useful.
But then again David, fraud, paedophilia and criminals in positions of Hillsong are “trivial issues” aren’t they David?
Hillsong is not a trivial issue – it is an institution that parades itself as a business/church but fails to live up to the basic standards of both a business or a church. As a result, people get destroyed. People. Did you get that?
This is why Hillsong is a cult. They create people like you who have no heart for the people they destroy.
“Internet Troll definition
A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet”
David, which is you, because you are the one who sought out this site, only to argue.
“over extremely trivial issues”
Calling people getting hurt by Hillsong ‘extremely trivial’ reveals how selfish you are.
“Internet Troll definition”
@David, going around the internet picking arguments, then calling the other people trolls…. You’re a total hypocrite.
“Well at least Brian wasn’t on Ash Madison. But Sproul’s son was.
Yep, this is a troll site. Nothing more.”
So you think just because Sproul’s son was on Ash Madison, that ‘negates’ everything being said here AND in the courts AND in the media AND on many other Christian websites about Brian Houston and his heresies?
Get real. You’re the troll.
“Yep, this is a troll site. Nothing more.”
If anyone is a troll it is Brian Houston. If you think about it, teaching his false Prosperity Gospel and promoting his False Teacher friends, Brian Houston is trolling the Body of Christ.
Yes Cassey – that may or may not have been true, but regardless of that, how much airplay do “the sins of Frank Houston” get at Hill$ong nowadays – none???
Or the gross sins of any one of half a dozen former Hill$ong leaders, for that matter?
Shoosh – don’t talk about that – it’s all been covered up, er I mean ‘covered in the blood’ – so no need to say anything, right? Nothing at all, Cassey. That’s how much ‘airtime’ Frank Houston’s sins will get. His many victims on both sides of the Tasman Sea will get even less airtime than Frank, wont they?
Of course, the mere fact that he came here and promoted himself, based on false visions, aleggedly from God, about “coming to Australia to start ‘churches'” – well thas a big fat lie, wasn’t it Cassey?
It must be devastating to finally realise that your entire Hill$ong fantasy is built on the biggest lie of all time, in Australian church circles…
What is this site? This is the worst advertisement for Jesus I’ve ever seen.
“What is this site? This is the worst advertisement for Jesus I’ve ever seen.”
That’s the same thing you would have said about Paul when he rebuked Peter publicly.
If this is ‘the worst advertisement for Jesus you’ve ever seen’, then you must have never seen Hillsong, because Hillsong is the biggest DISGRACE ever perpetrated in His Name.
This site is a troll site where some dudes are making cash from Amazon affiliates and infringing on Hillsong’s trademark.
They are doing well making money from trolling and taking advantave of Hillsongs popularity. Riding the search engine optimization wave so to speak.
When I last checked this site fluctuates on page 1 and 2 of the Google serps for search term “hillsong”.
Its and easy way to make cash riding on the back of someone elses’s trademark but obviously is unlawful.
“Its and easy way to make cash riding on the back of someone elses’s trademark but obviously is unlawful.”
Are you talking about Brian Houston? He has made a fortune ripping people off financially in the name of Jesus. And it Jesus who calls falsely teachers like him “Lawless ones,” “dogs,” “deceitful workers.”
David – you are wicked, evil soul that is hellbent in maliciously lying about us. We have not received a single cent from this site. None. But lots of money and time has gone to helping victims abused by todays most dangerous cults like Hillsong.
If you had a conscience, you would be ashamed of yourself for defaming Christians you no nothing about.
“They are doing well making money from trolling and taking advantave of Hillsongs popularity. Riding the search engine optimization wave so to speak.”
No that’s not true. Their statistics show they don’t make money off this site.
So what is your real reason for being here, Sport?
Sorry. We advertise the Jesus of Christianity. Lot’s of people don’t like that Jesus. Looks like you don’t either.
“But lots of money and time has gone to helping victims abused by todays most dangerous cults like Hillsong.”
Don’t you think organisations like Hillsong have a place to introduce people to God and maybe act as a stepping stone as people learn more about God?
It seems that you think that Hillsong is 100% bad or can you see that they do a lot of good in a lot of communities?
Has this not been proven by the amount of help they give to others in need including other organisations and the amount of people they reach?
Compare that to a typical other type of church which typically can be very unattractive SPECIFICALLY to non-christians.
Do you not think that sharing the Gospel the way Hillsong does to SPECIFICALLY non-christians can be an introduction to God – and that God has a plan for each individual and Hillsong might be just the beginning of their introduction to God?
You would have to admit they are good at introducing God to a large amount of people.
Is this bad or good?
Which God? http://defendingcontending.com/2010/03/14/which-jesus-do-you-worship/
Near enough is not always good enough. A compass just 1 degree off-course can end up in turning up in a completely different destination. That can mean the difference between life and death.
“Don’t you think organisations like Hillsong have a place to introduce people to God and maybe act as a stepping stone as people learn more about God?”
Would you introduce your friends to the People’s Temple “as a stepping stone as people learn more about God?”
“It seems that you think that Hillsong is 100% bad or can you see that they do a lot of good in a lot of communities?”
It was illegally founded by a disqualified man who was also a serial pedophile. His son covered up his father’s crimes. They’ve reinvented Christianity and destroy any Christian that questions their totalitarian regime against Christ’s church.
They destroy people and blaspheme God and promote selfishness and lawlessness in the community.
No cult is good for any community. Governments monitor fraudulent businesses because con artists can destroy entire families or communities. They should do the same not with churches but with fraudulent organisations that pose as businesses/charities but aren’t.
“Has this not been proven by the amount of help they give to others in need including other organisations and the amount of people they reach?”
That’s called a disguise. Any con artist or wolf can parade their works before men. Look at the Pharisees. They paraded their community work but murdered Christ in cold blood. Oddly enough, Jesus said to Paul, “Why are you persecuting me?” Hillsong’s hands are covered in the blood of saints who have died at their hands of the Prosperity and Word of Faith gospel. These liars are sending people to hell.
“Compare that to a typical other type of church which typically can be very unattractive SPECIFICALLY to non-christians.”
Brian Houston knew that his father was going to be incarcerated for his crimes. And you have the audacity to compare criminals and public frauds in leadership to Christian church ministers? That is wicked.
“Do you not think that sharing the Gospel the way Hillsong does to SPECIFICALLY non-christians can be an introduction to God – and that God has a plan for each individual and Hillsong might be just the beginning of their introduction to God?”
They don’t share the Christian faith. This is WHY we exist. Various Christians caught in Hillsong might – but Hillsong preaches every other gospel except the Christian gospel. Essentially they are making false converts and preparing them for hell.
“You would have to admit they are good at introducing God to a large amount of people.”
Then why is it that when people leave, they either become non-believers or realise they have been sold a pack of lies and become Christian through friends outside of Hillsong?
If you want to lead someone to Jesus – don’t lead them into a dangerous, destructive cult. Lead them to a church that preaches Jesus.
Their god wont save them as there god is their belly. The bible warns us to separate ourselves from these dogs and evil doers. Yet you defend them.
Why not stand with Christ and his apostles and not deceitful scheming men?
“compare criminals and public frauds in leadership to Christian church ministers?”
What – so all other Christian church ministers are without sin?
Sounds like you might be stretching that one.
Read 1 & 2 Timothy. Christians believe the bible when they read it. Try it. You might become born again. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. U regenerates hate and twist Gods Word. Read your bible and believe what it says.
Wasn’t Henry VIII of England founder of the Church of England?
“Is this bad or good?”
It is written “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.” The fruit was “good” and “pleasing” and “desirable” – so Eve took some and ate it.
You are a perfect analogue of Eve, in that you have been deceived by outward appearances. That deception has led you to a place where you have set aside the word of God – where, in fact, you have set yourself up in opposition to the knowledge of God – and are found to be in open rebellion against Him. Not only that, but you now wish to inveigle others into joining you in that rebellion – just as Eve did.
Do you think that is for no reason that Jesus said “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”? But it is impossible for you to take heed of that injunction, because you do not have the Holy Spirit, and hence you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever and thus consequently lack any basis for formulating sound judgements.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Actually @raptrready, Hill$ong is the worst ad for Jesus I’ve ever seen…
If you want to go to websites and blogs that indulge in the “gooey, mushy Jesus love” thing (which Christ Himself never taught or exhibited,) then I suppose there are hundreds of those ones out there, but this one is more about some ‘free advertising’ for false prophets and their ungodly antics.
We don’t have a plastic ‘Jesus’ here, or a rubber one one that can be bent every which way to suite the mood of the audience. Our Jesus is the real deal – Saviour and coming King, not that ‘cardboard cut out’ that Houston and others place off to one side of the platform on Sunday morning, just so that the crowd will know that ‘Jesus’ is there…
Exposing cults like Hill$ong is not for the faint hearted @raptready, and maybe you might need to find another blog to write your short sighted comments on…
We love Jesus Christ because He first loved us, but that is sacrificial love, not gooey emotional love…
Hey Apollo
What’s a “false prophet”?
If benny hinn is a false prophet then what is his fruit?
Jesus said “a tree is recognized by its fruit”
False teachings, false prophecies, healing services with no documented proven healings. Benny Hinn has a very long history. http://deceptioninthechurch.com/bhinn.html
The fact that phoney televangeli$t$ like Hinn are still on TV after all these years tragically shows how many people are desperate for healing/ know nothing about the bible/ looking for quick cash if they “sow a seed” i.e. send Hinn money.
“False teachings, false prophecies, healing services with no documented proven healings. Benny Hinn has a very long history.”
And Benny Hinn’s ‘relationship’ with that other word-of-faith flake Paula White.
Thanks Willis.
Ok everyone, time to get back on topic.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
David, you need to read the Bible, because every time you comment your complete ignorance of the Bible shows.
The more you speak, the less you seem to know.
David might be new in christ.
Benny hinn is just a complete joke if you ask me. There are literally hundreds of hours of unique youtube material to get you started to see what a fake he is.
Just take this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxTr1IP7leQ
If you watch from 1:25 in you will se a very serious error which clearly is 100% heresy.
Maybe he’s missed one of the passages that Jesus himself commanded us to do: Matthew 5:43-48
About Benny Hinns fruits in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnP9LYVwqmI
Benny Hinn have had serious problems in his marriage but they claim that they have “healed” their marriage now and for that reason I let our Lord judge it.
As for Brian Houston you have this entire homepage to read about errors or stated errors.
I regard Hillsong to be an apostate church and our bible states that as christians we shall avoid such people.
2 Timothy 3:1-9
OK Then –
What about Bob Larson?
What about Nicholas James Vujicic?
“David might be new in christ.”
I will give him that.
Ok, Bob Larson used to be very good when he wrote a book years ago on the cults.
Though today it seems like he’s gone the other way and slipped over into some strange ideas and is probably associated with C Peter Wagner’s very heretical and also extreme group called the New Apostolic Reformation (or “NAR” for short). The NAR pulls anything out of their head that sounds spiritual, and palms it off to their followers as the latest news from God.
Larson’s original book though seems untainted by his later/current ideas and it is a good book and a worthwhile read.
What is also very curious, is how could someone as discerning as Bob Larson was years ago, get tricked later into something like the NAR and taking Spiritual Warfare to a bizarre extreme.
That is why Paul warned in 1 Corinthians 10:12:
“Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.”
“We don’t have a plastic ‘Jesus’ here, or a rubber one one that can be bent every which way to suite the mood of the audience.”
A new way to describe Hillsong… the Gumby gospel lol.
Hey @ Doc Gospel, that’s exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that post – a Gumby doll!
A small rubber figure with stiff but bendable wire inside – I had one as a child back in the 1960’s but couldn’t remember his name – classic…
@’David’ – a false prophet, in the New Testament, is a person who purports to represent Jesus Christ, but they are a false ministry.in many ways. Many do utter false prophecies, but those who don’t will still preach a false gospel and still teach false doctrines.
They will also promote false notions of prosperity, and if the truth were known about their private lives, there will almost always be things in there like immorality, the love of money (excessive greed,) and many other things that are contrary to the word of God, as to how Christian people should live, and present their message…
One of their major tendencies, is to put Jesus down to a mere humanistic level, and at the same time, lift themselves up into a god-like image, before the people.
“You shall be as gods…” – the old lie of the garden of Eden will be prominent in the thinking and preaching of many false prophets…
Galatians 5:19 shows the works of the flesh (bad fruit) and verse 22 onwards shows good fruit – fruit of the Holy Spirit…
“19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.”
” Faith: What’s driving Hayne to succeed
…
But what is certain is his faith will be unshaken.
The 27-year-old is a devout Christian, having attended Hillsong’s South West Sydney Campus in Campbelltown numerous times.
After learning he had made the official 53-man squad for the San Francisco 49ers, Hayne sent out a tweet thanking God for “what he has done and (is) going to do on this incredible journey.”
At a press conference in March … the former Parramatta Eel said …
“I’m not perfect. I struggle with sin and temptation all the time. For me, they are the key areas where I want to improve as well. They’re part of that journey now,” Hayne said.
“It’s not just about playing in the NFL. Christ comes before everything.”
Hayne said then that he would not have been able to move forward without his belief in Christianity.
“That is why, when you make those decisions, if you don’t have him to lean on or focus on, there’s going to be a lot of dark days over there. It won’t last. I won’t last.”
A Hillsong Church spokesman said …
“Jarryd is an amazing person with great talent on the sporting field, and we wish him the very best as he embraces the future. He knows, as we do, that outside accolades are less important than the peace and fulfilment that faith in Jesus Christ brings to our lives. At Hillsong Church, we believe God has a great purpose for every person and we are passionate about helping everyone reach their potential. Whether someone is a high profile sports star or someone struggling to make ends meet, we believe God can lead, guide and help them through life if they put him first.”
http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/macarthur/faith-whats-driving-hayne-to-succeed/story-fngr8h70-1227531778151 “
Well, that’s a nice little spiel Newtaste, but what’s it got to do with Tanya Levine being arrested for trespass by Hill$ong??? Why haven’t you decried the very bad PR mess this has made for Brian and Co. in the media?
“…we believe God has a great purpose for every person and we are passionate about helping everyone reach their potential.”
There’s that crafty little ‘purpose driven’ drivel again Newtaste. I can see why you quoted that piece – it epitomizes Hill$ong in a nutshell, doesn’t it?
I don’t have a problem with Hayne achieving his goals in the sporting arena, but I don’t like you using him as a mascot for all things Hill$ong…
That is pretty typical of the AOG/ACC/Hillsong – anyone from Darren Beadman, to Guy Sebastian to Jarrod Hayne – anyone at all will do to bolster the image of success in connection with Hill$ong, won’t they Newtaste…
This topic is about Rev Chris Rosebrough supposedly exposing error in the Hillsong statement of beliefs. Nothing to do with Levin.
You ignored “I struggle with sin and temptation all the time.”
And I haven’t and never would use Hayne as a mascot for anything. I was simply posting a story about his faith. Just because Houston talks about Hayne all the time doesn’t mean I do. My rugby league interest ended in the mid 1990s.
“My rugby league interest ended in the mid 1990s.”
Around the same time as you stopped learning anything new, then.