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Christianity Astray, Christianity Today, Deeds not Creeds, Hillsong, hillsong conference, Hillsong cult, rick warren, warren
Rick Warren is famous for coining the phrase “Deeds not Creeds.” This anti-creedal statement of Warren indicates that he shows very little regard of the creeds. That is unless he can use them to give the impression he is a legitimate Christian minister.
In 2014, Hillsong leadership were quite relaxed in confessing that Hillsong is a non-creedal church. It was at Hillsong Conference 2015 this year where Rick Warren preached a rather anti-Christian message on how to hear from his god.
After Pulpit and Pen exposed Warren’s pagan teachings, Rick Warren now appeals that he does indeed affirm the Nicene Creed. This is just another slick attempt to keep his sheepskin in tact while he continues to destroy Christ’s church for his own selfish gain.
Nevertheless, Christianity Today continually fails to care about integrity when it comes to journalism or the Christian faith and allowed Justin S. Holcomb to use nice sounding arguments to say not much at all in defense of Rick Warren. If anything, it has only created more confusion over church history and clear definitions on words such as ‘heresy’ and ‘heterodoxy’. Thank you Christianity Today.
The below well written article exposes the game of Holcomb and Warren and calls out the deceit behind Christianity Today:
“It seems to be just another attempt by the Evangelical Intelligentsia to distract from the real issues–issues that are bringing destruction in the church, further leading Christianity astray. It’s their typical game strategy.” [Link added]
Paul warns the church that ravenous wolves will emerge from inside the church. The evil intentions of these men will only stop when God fearing Christians says enough is enough and call them out. Thank God for Maples.
Jeff Maples writes,
Christianity Today says Rick Warren’s Mysticism isn’t Heresy Because he affirms the Nicene Creed
Recently, I wrote an article addressing serious theological issues that the CEO of Saddleback Church, Rick Warren, preached at the Hillsong 2015 Conference. Apparently this article ruffled quite a few feathers, since it has almost five-thousand Facebook shares, and Hillsong even contacted me requesting that I remove the video of Rick Warren’s sermon from Youtube (even though it’s protected under the fair use act). Now it appears that Justin Holcomb at Christianity Astray Today has taken an opportunity to lash out at Pulpit & Pen, though without any substance. Though he didn’t mention our blog or my name, my article would seem to fit the description, along with his passive aggressive, stereotypical depiction of Pulpit & Pen. He writes:
A group of bloggers seeking reform in Southern Baptist circles recently decried pastor Rick Warren for teaching that God communicates to believers via dreams. The bloggers named Warren and other speakers at a 2015 Hillsong conference “heretical preachers that claim extra-biblical revelation from God.” To be sure, the nature of God’s revelation has been debated throughout church history, and overemphasis on dream interpretation can be theologically dangerous.
He then goes on into a rant about some British guy, of which I know nothing about, and will not comment on. However, his beef with us seems to be more about semantics than anything else. His approximately 3600-word article is dedicated to attacking Pulpit & Pen (and this other guy) about the use of the word “heresy.”
The article I penned at P&P in which appears to be the focus of Holcomb’s harangue is titled “Rick Warren Preaching Heresy at Hillsong 2015 Conference.” He then spends the rest of the article attempting to define the word, “heresy,” as well as trying to prove that what Rick Warren was teaching is, in fact, not heresy. He says:
But are these problems of heresy? Both complementarian and egalitarian leaders have taken to the Internet to call each other’s views on gender and leadership heresy. That, though their respective movements have officially existed for about 30 years.
If we stopped reading his article here, one might conclude that in order for a theological teaching to be considered heresy, it must be relatively new. However, we will see by continuing that that isn’t what he thinks. So my question would be, why mention it? If the length of existence of a given theological teaching had anything to do with it’s being considered heresy, then that would have made all of Jesus’ teachings “heresy,” in which we know is not the case–at least not from a Biblical believer’s point of view.
However, Mr. Holcomb later asserts his definition of the word as follows:
Heresy, as historian David Christie-Murray explains, is a belief that denies a doctrine “officially defined” as orthodoxy…For example, according to Protestants, the Catholic teaching that Mary was born without original sin and remained a virgin for life is heterodox. It’s not heresy, because Catholics affirm orthodox Christology…However, Oneness Pentecostalism is an example of heresy, because it rejects historic orthodox Trinitarian theology.
And then goes on to conclude,
If a believer genuinely accepts the Nicene Creed, they should not be dubbed a heretic.
Okay, there are a number of problems with this. First, I would ask him that since the pope of the Catholic Church affirms the Nicene Creed, should he not then be labeled a heretic? This is assuming, of course, that he believes the Catholic Church to be a false church that teaches a false gospel. However, according to his definition, the pope affirms the trinity and other “orthodox” teachings set out at the council of Nicea, and, therefore, should not be labeled a heretic.
But is this the proper, biblical use of the word heresy?
First of all, let’s be clear, there was no Nicene Creed while the New Testament was being written. It did not exist. The Nicene Creed was established about 300 years later after the New Testament Canon was closed. So when Paul referred to heretics in his epistles, he wasn’t referring to people who didn’t affirm the Nicene Creed. Paul says in Titus 3:10m
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, (ESV)
and the KVJ translates it as,
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
The Greek word translated here as one who stirs up division, or “heretick,” (as the KJV translates it), is “αἱρετικός,” or “hairetikos.” Thayer’s Greek Lexicon defines the word as:
1. fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2. schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3. heretic
So what is “false doctrine?” Obviously Paul isn’t referring to simple disagreements over non-essentials in Titus 3:10. But Holcomb is attempting to make a biblical definition of the word “heresy” that equates to a more distinguished use of the word than that of the standard definition, which is basically, “a choice.” This is fine, as I am attempting to do the same thing, however, Holcomb’s “biblical” definition fails, as it is not consistent with biblical usage. He has narrowed the term down too far in order to avoid usage on those whom it should apply biblically.
Peter actually gives us a better picture of the biblical usage of the word in 2 Peter 2:1,
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
So basically, a heresy, according to Peter, is a “destructive doctrine,” or a doctrine that will lead someone to “destruction.” Again, there was no Nicene Creed during this time, and I simply don’t see any biblical support for limiting Paul and Peter’s usage of the word to those who would only deny certain declarations of it. For example, the Nicene Creed doesn’t even touch upon soteriology, yet the doctrine of salvation is by far the most important doctrine of the Christian faith. While all aspects of the Nicene Creed are important and essential, it is rather limited in its scope. The Roman Catholic Church, as well as any other sect that asserts a false gospel, or a false way of salvation, or any other teaching that could lead one down the wrong road to destruction, would clearly be considered heretical by biblical standards.
So back to Rick Warren, in whom Mr. Holcomb believes should not be referred to as a heretic. I would then ask, why not? Is not what he teaches dangerous? Is not teaching that the Bible is insufficient for hearing from God a destructive doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16-17)? Is not contemplative prayer, and other practices of mysticism and divination strictly forbidden in Scripture? Are these practices not linked with idolatry and rejection of God (1 Samuel 15:23)?
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. – Matthew 7:13
Perhaps Mr. Holcomb doesn’t see Rick Warren’s teachings as dangerous. To his credit, he does say “Traditionally a heretic is someone who has compromised an essential doctrine, usually by oversimplification, and has thus lost sight of who God truly is or what he has done for us.” I would agree with him on that statement, however, it appears he doesn’t see mysticism, contemplative/centering prayer or denying the sufficiency of Scripture as an essential doctrine.
Or does he?
It’s unclear because he goes through a number of false teachings that, although he refuses to call them “heresy,” he refers to them as “heterodox.” Is there practically any distinction between the two words? Traditionally, historically, maybe–slightly. But Holcomb, again, writes a 3600-word article refuting my use of the word “heresy” in favor of the word “heterodox,” in which there is no practical argument to be made. It’s clear that the biblical definition of the word fits much more than he is willing to acknowledge and is a proper term to fit Rick Warren’s practices. But even if it weren’t, what is the point of his article? What purpose did it serve? It seems to be just another attempt by the Evangelical Intelligentsia to distract from the real issues–issues that are bringing destruction in the church, further leading Christianity astray. It’s their typical game strategy.
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. – Proverbs 14:12
Source: Jeff Maples, Christianity Today says Rick Warren’s Mysticism isn’t Heresy Because he affirms the Nicene Creed, http://www.psalm12outreach.com/2015/10/christianity-today-says-rick-warrens-mysticism-isnt-heresy-because-he-affirms-the-nicene-creed.html, Published 08/10/2015. (Accessed 10/10/2015.)
“In 2014, Hillsong leadership were quite relaxed in confessing that Hillsong is a non-creedal church.”
Lying is a sin, you know that. You may have cobbled together a fanciful notion that Hillsong doesn’t believe the standard Christian doctrines. But near everyone can see through your deception, even your adoring fans.
Hillsong Church – What We Believe:
http://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/
http://www.acc.org.au/about-us/doctrinal-basis/
http://www.metrolyrics.com/this-i-believe-the-creed-lyrics-the-hillsong-worship-team.html
“Maples …”
You might want to do one of your “Who is” articles and explain who Maples is. I’d never heard of him before.
One positive about this article is you replaced your standard “Exposes” headline with “Calls Out”. Well done in putting a bit of variety into your headlines.
Actually Newtaste, defending Rick Warren is the real sin here, and coupled with your constant support of all things Hill$ong, it puts you right out there, in front of the pack. Defending patently obvious false teachers is wicked and cannot bring the blessings of God upon your life.
Do you know what Rick Warren has done? Well here’s a sample:
1. http://fgcp.org/content/sample-strange-teachings-rick-warren
2. http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33394
3.http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/warren.ph
This man has almost single handedly, used a doctrinal wrecking ball against the church of his day, and will suffer dire consequences for his blatant errors.
Please note that I am not endorsing ANY of those websites, however they do provide a list of Warren’s heresies and that is the purpose for those links, so don’t come after me for anything you disagree with that may be posted there..
“You might want to do one of your “Who is” articles and explain who Maples is. I’d never heard of him before…”
Perhaps we’d be better off doing a “Who is Newtaste” article – we don’t know who you are either…
Serious allegations there Newtaste.
Instead of generalised company code-of-conduct style statements in Christianese, how about you give direct link/s (audio/visual format) to a Hillsong preacher’s speech where he/she clearly addresses Hillsong’s doctrine/s in a “clear as crystal” NOT “muddy water” fashion in front of his/her audience ?
Examples:
1st point from http://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/ :
* If the bible is considered so highly (it’s the first point after all) why are bible verses/passages “the herbs and spices” and not “the meal”? i.e. added as proof-texts for the speaker’s intended message, not the actual topic of the message.
* Why are personal testimonies given so much time compared to scripture?
* Why does Houston contradict the bible when it suits him? e.g. compare Matthew 7:13-14 with http://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/04/08/brian-houston-insisting-christians-take-the-wide-road/
2nd point: why are they happy to have the heretic T.D.Jakes – a modalist (1 God, 3 manifestations) preach at their church? A recent 2014 article (therefore people like yourself Newtaste cannot dismiss this as ancient history): http://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-td-jakes
3rd/5th point: Can you provide a link where we can see that Hillsong preaches on sin and the need to repent, turn away from sin and turn to God, grow in holiness over our life time (and so on)…. the type of sermon that would displease the (unsaved) world and make unrepentant sinners eventually leave Hillsong?
“Lying is a sin, you know that.”
If you knew lying was a sin NewTaste, you wouldn’t defend the leadership of Hillsong.
“You may have cobbled together a fanciful notion that Hillsong doesn’t believe the standard Christian doctrines.”
Now that is flat-out slander. We have produced enough evidence that Hillsong flat-out rejects “standard Christian doctrines.” That is why we doc-u-ment EVERYTHING these compulsive liars and con artists spout.
It’s funny how your cult leaders BLOCKED their own leaders from spouting what they claim Hillsong is.
We will get this video sorted out.
If you want to see the video transcribed, you can read this insiders article here:
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/09/19/i-was-a-christless-creedless-and-clueless-christian-in-hillsong-a-testimony-of-gods-grace/
You’re kicking against the goads of Christianity new taste and are becoming more slanderous and malicious in your attack-dog tactics. If you are a Christian at all, speak with truth. Otherwise we will rightly start calling you out as deviant and liar.
So what will it be NewTaste? Are you a Christian that speaks the truth; or are you of Satan – who’s native language is lies and deception? Do you like what Hillsong is turning you into?
Lastly, you can only accuse us of “cobbling together” falsehoods because your pastor will not stand for anything Christian in case he gets pinned down and held accountable for his words or beliefs.
Isn’t this why Brian Houston complains that he and his movement are misunderstood? As a motivational speaker your pastor seems to fail abysmally to effectively communicate anything at all if he can’t even begin to articulate what he and his movement stand for.
Sort out your faith first New Taste before commenting here again. You are an embarrassment to Christianity.
Newtaste — “You may have cobbled together a fanciful notion that Hillsong doesn’t believe the standard Christian doctrines.”
Thinker — “2nd point: why are they happy to have the heretic T.D.Jakes – a modalist (1 God, 3 manifestations) preach at their church?”
This point raises another concern on Newtaste’s comments:
The Apostles Creed names the 3 Members of the Trinity.
The Athanasian Creed names the 3 Members of the Trinity.
The Nicene Creed names the 3 members of the Trinity.
If Hillsong ‘held to the creeds’ as Newtaste claimed, then Brian Houston would have had a serious issue before inviting Oneness Pentecostal TD Jakes to Hillsong Conference.
Hi Renny – maybe Houston was counting on TD Jakes’ ability to draw a crowd, rather than debating which ‘god’ he believes in?
International speakers swell the crowds (and the tithe buckets – from 10 litre to 20 litre buckets??? You bet!) and so Hill$ong’s overall take from the crowd could have even doubled for that series of meetings…
“I’m Jakes the fake didulum didulum
with another doctrun, didulum didulum” 🙂
If drawing crowds is the main motive behind TD Jake’s appearance at a Hillsong conference (2013?) then thank goodness no Roman Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness or other pseudo Christian evangelists have extremely high amount of viewers amongst mainstream Christian viewers- yet….
But perhaps those cults’ representatives still care more about preaching and defending their “Christian” doctrine too much* i.e. making genuine converts (not just get new customers).
Genuinely hoping this is NOT a correct prediction – if non-orthodox “Christian” preacher/s etc. decide to now only deliver positive pep talks/ books aimed at ministering to believers’ felt needs (translation – top TV ratings /high online viewership/ book best-seller list to lowest common denominator) they might get invited to Hillsong conferences by the end of the decade.
—
*only non-threatening, positive teachings (i.e. pleasing to the flesh) permitted.
At this year’s Presence Conference, Phil Pringle announced that next year TD Jakes will be speaking at Presence Conference 2016. There’s seem to have been a change in the line-up, https://www.presenceconference.com
With those presence conference ‘volunteers’ paying $50 / ticket. Scam.
“Lying is a sin, you know that. You may have cobbled together a fanciful notion that Hillsong doesn’t believe the standard Christian doctrines.
But near everyone can see through your deception, even your adoring fans.”
Well there’s 2 lies right there Newtaste! No one has ‘cobbled’ anything together.
For Hill$ong to espouse a “standard” set of beliefs means that, as a result, there must be some standards, but many outsiders fail to see them. Standards for ministry, marriage and many other things.
There must be some very good “fruit” hanging on the Hill$ong vine – but there isn’t, is there Newtaste? There’s just a whole range of disjointed beliefs from emergent, to Hyper faith, to (hidden LRM/NAR) to ecumenical compromise, to outright lies told to the media, magistrates and members… or teaching that Christians and Moslems worship the same god… That really was the gaffe of the century, wasn’t it?
There’s also the failed government funded program for “youth employment”, or the Mercy Ministries debacle, or importing Rick Warren via videotape, despite promises made to the contrary, and many other things that could be named.
Materialism/prosperity gospel, and the resultant idolatry that springs forth from such wrong priorities:
“19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”‘
20 But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” Luke 12:19-21
And who are these ‘adoring fans’ who can ‘see through’ the Churchwatcher’s deception Newtaste? Who are they – I need to know, in case I got it all wrong myself. Maybe I need new glasses too???
Or maybe you need new glasses Newtaste – ones that let you see what 30 years of Hill$ong deceiving the body of Christ really looks like??? Or maybe you don’t want to go there, realising that your own ‘investment’ will never bring a return…
It seems to me Newtaste, that both you and Hill$ong have grown a whole forest of ‘logs’ that are blocking your vision on what are a whole portfolio of lies, as told by them…
And to that i say…. “Awwwww snap!”
Sorry Chris – what did you mean by that???
Simply that you put Newtaste in his place
“or importing Rick Warren via videotape,”
Apollo you mean Mark Driscoll…. Other than that your post was very accurate.
Driscollgate was another big deceptive lie by Brian Houston.
How quickly Newtaste is willing to overlook Brian Houston’s lies, while Newtaste makes up lies about Churchwatcher ‘cobbling things together.’
Then Newtaste makes up even more lies about ‘adoring fans seeing through Churchwatcher’s deception.’ What deception is that Newtaste…. telling the TRUTH?
This speaks volumes of negative on Newtaste’s character. He’s willing to do wrong, in order to maintain the Hillsong lie his wicked heart is so entangled with.
All I ever wanted, as a new Christian, from a very unchristian upbringing, was to get closer to God, learn more
about God, and to overcome my problems. It so disgraceful that people distort the ways of God. Going to church is more like walking in. Mine field, trying not to get inialated!
@ Renny – you’re right, it should have been ‘Driscolgate’, not ‘Warrengate’ – my apologies for getting that one wrong folks…
@ Annette – I know what you mean.My early years as a believer were a bit of a minefield too, but by the grace of God alone, I’m still here some 36 years later.
Jesus warned us, as did His apostles, that there would be false prophets, teachers and apostles, and He/they also gave us ways of discerning the true from the false.
Sometimes, the experience of walking through that ‘minefield’ encourages us to get closer to God as a natural outworking of avoiding these false ministries and the distractions that Satan likes to put in our path.
You’re still here too, so be encouaged – it’s obvious to me that God has His hand on you and your life, and that He has taken you through many things… 🙂
Psalm 23:
“1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
I’m posting this Psalm here for everybody…
Hey CW – I’ve tried to post twice on this thread and my posts keep on disappearing – and no, they’re not full of links…
Apollo – Not sure what the problem is. Nothing caught up in moderation (although sometimes comments go into moderation if Newtaste’s name is in the comment).
Ha Ha Ha – very funy CW – I’ll try and remember to go easy on the ‘new taste’ in my comments…
Thanks Apollo, your words are very encouraging. I’ve just written Psalm 23 on my new yellow whiteboard 😀 that hangs in my lounge room. The yellow board is for scriptures only! So I can learn and meditate on God’s Word. And of course to put it into practice, powered by prayer and God’s Holy Spirit.
Knowing Justin Holcomb (he is a conservative Episcopalian), it doesn’t bother me what he wrote. In fact, it’s to be expected.
And historically speaking, he is technically correct. Traditionally, heresy refers to a denial of the ecumenical creeds while heterodoxy refers to eccentricities. Case in point, as a Presbyterian, I’d label dispensationalism as heterodoxic.
This leads to a question. Is denial of Sola Scriptura a heresy? If yes, that would mean that many Pentecostals are damned, as far as I know. If not, it can be labeled as another eccentricity, though a dangerous one.
Mind you, I write as someone that thinks Brian Houston and Rick Warren are false teachers.
It just doesn’t surprise me, that he as an Episcopalian (and a person who worked with Mark Driscoll), wouldn’t be that hard on someone that denies Sola Scriptura as defined in the Reformation.
But that’s just me.
Hello SJG, would you mind clarifying this for me?
“This leads to a question. Is denial of Sola Scriptura a heresy? If yes, that would mean that many Pentecostals are damned, as far as I know. If not, it can be labeled as another eccentricity, though a dangerous one.”
I have been a classical Pentecostal Christian for over 30 years and have never denied God’s word on any matter, so how does this fit in with your ‘sola scriptura’ angle?
Last time I looked, my Pentecostal friends and I posed no danger to the Christian community at large, but if you’re talking NAR, Hyperfaith, Emergent, and wayward Charismatics, then I could understand you a little better.
The thing is, that none of those groups are aligned with classical Pentecostal beliefs. Orthodoxy can be embraced by two groups, who agree on the basics yet agree to disagree on the non-essentials. For example, the Salvation Army has brought millions to Christ since the late 19th century, but fails to observe Communion and Baptism. Does that allow them to still be viewed as Orthodox, or Heterodox? This may sound like a ‘red herring’ but it is a fact of church history.
Heterodoxy usually comes from way out in left field, and usually ‘borrows’ some Christian terminology and stage props, in order to disguise its real agenda, as change agents moving away from orthodoxy and on into pure heresy… The current NAR movement would fit this descriptionto a tee.
@Churchwatcher, I asked a legitimate question of SJG.
Why was my post delete?
Sorry, we DO get a lot of spam.