WHAT IS THE MYSTI-CHICKS UPRISING?
Although Chris Rosebrough identified a few key women as the Mysti-Chicks, we consider what he was addressing was more of an uprising within the modern day Church. Here is Chris Rosebrough to explain the Mysti-Chicks:
This is why we have specifically labeled this feminist movement as the Mysti-Chicks Uprising. It is rallying women to rise up and embrace their unbiblical forms of church governance and non-Christian practices.
These are just SOME women who were and are responsible for usurping this biblical authority and causing divisions in churches around the world.
HOW IS THE MCU DESTROYING CHURCHES?
For 2000 years Christianity has stood on the scriptures to contend earnestly for the faith, once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1). When the church forgot about the authority of the scriptures, the church increasingly took on pagan practices and created alternative man-made authorities and structures.
Hence the Great Reformation.
Through Martin Luther and many that followed after him, what was restored to the church were these five essential tenants to the Christian faith.
- Sola Fide – by faith alone
- Sola Scriptura – by Scripture alone.
- Solus Christus – through Christ alone.
- Sola Gratia – grace alone.
- Soli Deo Gloria – glory to God alone.
Sadly, through the rise of the Charismatic/New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) cult in the twentieth century, self-appointed Apostles and Prophets also promoted the idea that women can be Apostles. One way they mainstreamed this idea was by challenging the definition of ‘ministry’. They allowed men and women to have intercessory ministries, workplace ministries, prophetic ministries, prayer ministries and children’s ministry, etc.
Women became Apostles in the NAR based on their success. False Apostles and Prophets then were able to claim women were called by God into apostolic and prophetic ministry because they had the numbers and success to prove this (see Wendy Alec of GODTV). If it wasn’t done through this manner, it was done through the NARismatic TV ministries such as TBN, GODTV and DayStar ministries where woman were given the platform to ‘minister’ to men and women on TV from their homes. Essentially they challenged the notion of God’s Word on the issues of men teaching and preaching to edify and equip the church and usurped their authority.
So what were the NAR attacking with the rise of these Apostolic/Prophetic women?
Essentially – these women hate the word of God.
They make it very plain they do not submit to that scriptural authority and promote churches to rebel against it.
These are scriptures they reject:
[In accordance to the fall] “To the woman [God] said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.“” Genesis 3:16 (Emphasis added)
“As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (Emphasis added)
“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” 1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Emphasis added)
“In this way they can train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, managers of their households, kind, and subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be discredited.” Titus 2:4-5
Just like any cult, the MCU have crafted plausible sounding arguments using certain scriptures to justify their rebellion, which have been refuted. Other MCU leaders like Katherine Ruonala simply claim they are teachers and prophets because God the Holy Spirit spoke to them directly and called them into such offices.
The reason why women are called to submit like this within the church gathering is that men also must submit to their wives and be willing to give up their lives for them, the way Christ gave His life up for the church (Ephesians 5). This doctrine of submission between man and woman, husband and wife is known as complementarianism – a doctrine the church has held to for nearly two thousand years. The complementarian position is seen to uphold what has been the most traditional teaching on gender roles in the church. (You can even read on some of the early church father’s views on this topic here.)
AN EXAMPLE OF THE MYSTI-CHICKS UPRISING
One popular Mysti-Chicks Uprising prophet, Lisa Bevere, recently spoke on the Charisma Podcast Network. She talked about how she fell asleep at her laptop and when she awoke, God the Holy Spirit spoke to her about God’s love. She claimed that through the Holy Spirit she wrote her latest book ‘Without Rival’. With her prophetic office established (because the Holy Spirit spoke to her), the presenter proceeded to ask Lisa Bevere about her thoughts on women in the church.
“When the church tells the daughters that they can find their value anywhere and everywhere except for in the house of God, then there is a problem. Somehow, I don’t know how this translates, but somehow men have really almost embraced a- it’s hard to say this- we’re kept almost like a Muslim Christianity where women have value everywhere except the house of God. They’re like kind of redeemed but not fully redeemed. Adam is fully redeemed. Eve is partially redeemed. And so what you see is a gender competition going on. You hear comments from major, MAJOR, church planting leaders say things like, ‘Women are gullible, they’re unfit, they’re easily deceived, they take the words of Paul and distort their application.’”
Source: Lisa Bevere, Without Rival with Lisa Bevere (56), Charismatic Podcast Network, https://charismapodcastnetwork.com/shows/charismaconnection/ae0bc20c82092bd92388aeab1fc3e2c3, Published 14/08/2016. (Accessed 11/09/2016.) (Emphasis ours.)
By Lisa’s admission she is a false prophet. This is because she acknowledged that Christian leaders do claim that women who want to find Lisa’s unbiblical feminist values “take the words of Paul and distort their application”. This is because Lisa is ignoring Paul’s clear instruction about her role in the church. While Lisa Bevere takes on the office of ‘Prophet’ in the above CPN broadcast, she is refusing to “acknowledge that the things [Paul is] writing to [her] are a command of the Lord”. Notice the strong rebuke the Apostle Paul makes against false prophets like Lisa Bevere:
“Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.“
In other words, Lisa Bevere is to be rejected by the church for her blatant disregard of God’s Word as a self-appointed prophet. This kind of hatred towards God, his teaching and His Church are very common within the MCU.
THE FRUIT OF THE MCU: REBELLION AND WITCHCRAFT
One of the MCU leaders is Beth Moore. She wrote an article titled ‘It’s Hunting Season for Heretics‘, where she took offense to a young woman who called her a “false teacher”. However, in her article, Moore accused Christians of going on “a witch hunt. Only, instead of witches, it’s heretics and false teachers.”
The concept that women like Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer or Bobbie Houston are witches is laughable. However, now that Beth Moore put that concept out there, we started researching what the bible teaches on witchcraft. We were shocked to discover the fruit of the Mysti-Chicks Uprising is exactly that: witchcraft.
Heed the words of the prophet Samuel to the rebellious King Saul:
“For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.” 1 Samuel 15:23 (Emphasis ours)
Likewise, the Mysti-Chicks Uprising have “rejected the word of the LORD” and usurped (just like the Pharisees), the rightful authorities within the church. Just as King Saul’s rebellion led him to seek out the Witch/Medium of Endor, requesting that she summon the dead to counsel him (1 Samuel 28), so too are women like Beth Moore embracing witch-craft in the name of Jesus to usurp biblical authority for their own selfish gains. Here is God describing these occult practices:
“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to theLORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this.”Deuteronomy 18:10-14
Take note that false prophets in Israel used the ‘miraculous’ to mislead Israel to embrace the practices of paganism:
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God…”Deuteronomy 13:1-5
Likewise, women such as Beth Moore, Priscilla Shirer, Bobbie Houston and Joyce Meyer within the MCU, are “prophesying and dreaming dreams” to mislead women AWAY from Christianity and embracing the worldly notions of humanistic philosophies and feminist notions. God is using these women – “to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” However, the above scripture links again rebellion with the pursuit of other pagan deities and practices.
The MCU’s idea of empowering and equipping women is actually:
- promoting elitism,
- dividing churches,
- rejecting the Word of God,
- encouraging women to “to play the harlot after” secular idealisms (humanism, feminism) and thus
- promoting rebellion and witchcraft.
Yes, the Mysti-Chicks Uprising encourages witchcraft. This is because the bible states witchcraft includes fortune-telling and divining. Fortune-telling is also known as clairvoyance. And ‘divining’ requires someone who has supernatural or magical insight into future events. Bible translations often translate the word ‘witch’ with ‘medium’, suggesting that the two are synonymous (1 Samuel 28). Interestingly enough, people in the secular today identify as:
- psychic mediums
- spiritual mediums and
- intuitive mediums
A medium tunes into their psychic/spiritual/intuitive faculty to see into the lives of their hearers, (whether it be past, present or future). Probably the most popular form of mediation in the MCU is spiritual mediation. Spiritual mediation engages in ‘channeling’ the spirit, demon or primitive force through the person to communicate a message to their hearers. Channeling is a form of communication with various spiritual or energetic entities or forces in a spiritual world. Yet we see many of the leaders in the MCU rely on such occultic practices to convince their gullible audiences that they are hearing from God the Holy Spirit. Even Beth Moore confessed to tapping into this method from hearing God in an email:
“I have at times been so heavily impressed by Him on my heart that I had a very strong sense of what He was intending to get across to me. In sharing it, I used regular language – words – as people often do, to express those strong impressions that came with the pressing of the Holy Spirit.” [Source]
In other words, Beth Moore was acting as an intuitive medium, although she relied on intuitive senses to channel a message supposedly from the “Holy Spirit”. Amanda Wells is more of a psychic medium, relying on cold readings to give the impression she is hearing from God. Kat Kerr, Heidi Baker, Stacey Campbell to name a few are more of spiritual mediums, presenting themselves as channeling the Holy Spirit.
WARNING: The following videos may disturb some viewers.
[Start at 00:32 seconds in for Kat Kerr video.]
If you are still not convinced that this form of rebellion is linked to witchcraft, here is Patricia King promoting the pagan worship that taps into trance-like experiences known as Ekstasis Worship:
Copying the world: calling pagan worship Christian worship (Part 1)
Notice what they have in common. They are making Christianity all about you – not Jesus. However Jesus states,
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” John 5:39-40
This proves that they are false prophets, attracting people who hear what they want to hear. These prophets don’t care about the true Holy Spirit behind prophecy:
“Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelations 19:10
Note, all these MCU leaders have no problem claiming they hear from God the Holy Spirit. However, if they were hearing from the Holy Spirit, why isn’t the Holy Spirit doing His job of convicting these women of their sins and calling them to repentance? This is what Christ says the Holy Spirit came to do:
“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.” John 16:7-9 (Emphasis added)
If there is anything that we hope you begin to realize about the dangers of the MCU, it’s that they are rebelling against God, they are dividing churches and as a result, they are promoting a form of witchcraft in the name of Jesus Christ. Finally a good example of this rebellion and the damage it’s causing in churches, is this segment from Jordan Hall’s Polemics Report.
Jordan Hall read out an email he received from a pastor who was terrified of the women in his church who promote Beth Moore. Jordan Hall addressed the following:
“Here’s why I’m reading the email. Here’s why I am reading this. He says this- he says:
‘By the way, please don’t get thrown off by the Beth Moore simulcast website banner on our website. (JD Hall laughs) Ah! Alright! It’s painful to see. We elders have been wrestling with our own powerful women’s ministries for some time. When we challenge that leadership, they cry foul and start manipulating us. It’s been tough but it’s coming to a head. We do not believe Beth Moore is a bible teacher.’
Well she is a bible teacher. She’s just a really, really bad bible teacher. Ahh- and claims direct divine revelation. And here’s the thing, the PASTOR has a Beth Moore link on the church website – – – and he can’t do anything about it right this minute because they’ve been wrestling with, the quote, (he put it in quotes), ‘POWERFUL’ (notice the quotation marks), ‘POWERFUL women’s ministry’. Anybody else seeing a problem, or is it just me?
Well, the scripture says the student becomes like the teacher. Usurping authority in her rebellious authoritative teaching positions, teaching men and women authoritatively as though she were preaching (because that’s what it is).
Huh! And her followers won’t submit to the leadership and the pastor of the church. First of all, this is very common. This is not out of the ordinary. Most post pastors I know who are discerning are terrified of the women in their church when it comes to Beth Moore.”
Source: Jordan Hall, Andy Stanley’s Tired of the Bible, Polemics Report,http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8311621700, 25:52,Published 26/05/2016. (Accessed 08/09/2016.)
Is there one modern church denomination when women were formally accepted into church leadership e.g. female pastor, deacon that did NOT become openly liberal, gay affirming, Emergent Church, into mysticism and/or embraced Charismatic signs and wonders afterwards if they weren’t already (i.e. has KEPT to this day bible alone on every other matter?)
The list should have started with Katherine Kuhlman & Aimee Semple McPherson. Both adulteresses and out of order.
Paul was pretty clear that women are inferior to men when it comes to spiritual discernment so it should be no surprise when they bring with them all the nonsensical trappings that come with deception and extra Biblical mumbo jumbo.
Jezebel is in charge of the modern PC church.
Wait, does the Bible actually mean that women are inferior in terms of discernment? I thought we were to submit to men because it is a picture of the church submitting to Christ. I do look to my husband to double-check me when my “discernment alarm” goes off about something, and he’s got a better head for remembering which movements believe what and who’s associated with them. But I generally pick up on the same things he does, even if he’s better at working out exactly what it is that’s setting off my “alarm.”
Lisa, it’s often been said by pastors (who hold the biblical view that women are not to teach or have authority over a man) – these same men will say women can be far more discerning!
But the appeal is to the authority of scripture as to the structure of the church gathered, regardless as to whether a woman is more discerning.
Having said that, we would also like Fatman to clarify his statement biblically.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Fatman is correct. In Paul’s letter to Timothy: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A12-14&version=KJV
Paul says Eve not Adam was deceived.
Thinker – that’s a great scripture. Is that what Fatman was referring to, that’s the answer we would like to know? “Weaker” would be a better term than “inferior”
1 Peter 3:7 “Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.”
Biblical discernment is the responsibility of all believers, male and female
1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 ” Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.
1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
The New Testament clearly informs us that discernment is not optional for the believer (male and female) – it is required.
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
“The New Testament clearly informs us that discernment is not optional for the believer (male and female) – it is REQUIRED.”
However according to the comments made by Hillsong apologists who I’ve seen visit here, those misinformed people would not only have you believe that Discernment is not required, Hillsong apologists take it a step further, belittling you for having Discernment, trying to shame you for it, and even portraying it as some sort of disgrace / abomination / evil.
Twisting God’s Word in that manner as Hillsong apologists do, to put it bluntly, puts them in league with the Devil.
Fat Man said:
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
I would say her discernment was inferior to Adam’s in this situation.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Greg – And your point is?
Cheers, Team Churchwatch
“We do not know what we ought to pray for”
We have the bible and all it’s advice and yet we still “do not know what we ought to pray for”
Now that is saying something. Could all this information about women be part of not knowing anything?
In other words – we are nowhere near like God. We are just a ‘wisp of fog’ – yet we think we are intelligent enough to know God and think we understand God.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
Greg – We are ‘intelligent’ enough to understand what is clearly written in His word. It is meant to be studied and applied, not twisted like a rubber nose as these ‘mystichicks’ are so skilled at doing. These women mislead their blind followers for whom Jesus Himself in Matthew 15:14, has these frightening words “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit”
“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” 1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Emphasis added)”
So – is a woman allowed to lead worship?
What’s “leading worship” got to do with the article Greg?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether.
Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world.
Israelite slavery was not for life, but only for six years And masters were instructed:
Duet 15:13-14 “And when you let [your slave] go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. As the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him.
MystiChicks – 1 Timothy 2:11-14 “A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”
And your point is?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a WOMAN to teach or to exercise authority over a MAN; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” 1 Timothy 2:11-14 (Emphasis added)
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man (the Greek is singular) and then in verse 15 ‘’but the woman (singular) shall be preserved etc if THEY (plural) continue in faith ….etc. etc.
Nothing to do with an assembled congregation.
It has everything to do with the “assembled congregation”.
Cheers, Team Churchwatch
Women are to not permitted to SPEAK in CHURCH. Nothing said in 1 Corinthians 14 that forbids women’s participation in/ leading worship via music in church.
Fat Man said:
Greg is Scripturally challenged methinks. “We do not know what we ought to pray for” has nothing to do with matters that are made clear in the Word.
I know from Scripture that females are forbidden from preaching/teaching or having authority, I don’t needs pray about that.
I don’t know from Scripture if I aught pray for Hillary to win or Donald. That isn’t in the Bible. I don’t know if I aught pray for Boobie Houston to striken like Jezebel of Revelation or just leave her to God Almighty. Not good examples but you get the idea.
Greg sounds like one of these types that elevate “personal revelation” above the Scriptures.
“So – is a woman allowed to lead worship?”
That has NOTHING to do with this story/article (as usual your posts are distractions from you who do not understand Scripture, “greg”).
“In other words – we are nowhere near like God. We are just a ‘wisp of fog’ – yet we think we are intelligent enough to know God and think we understand God.”
More worthless fluff talk. This has NOTHING to do with the article. Similar to ALL your other idiotic emergent posts.
“Greg is Scripturally challenged methinks.”
It’s not only that Greg does not understand Scripture, it’s far worse than that. Greg twists Scriptures around to fit his own way of thinking. Sad. Very pathetic. He should not be posting anywhere until he learns what he’s talking about.
Fat Man said:
I saw a lot of this type of weird stuff at the pedophile Frank Houston’s church years ago. He always had his explanations, teachings, insights and revelations about what it was all about even though nothing like this exists in scripture. He would bring in all sorts of heretical teachers like Randy Clarke & John Arnott and his weird wife who supported, promoted and furthered the madness.
This sort of Rodney Howard Browne weirdness broke out in a lot of churches. After many years, what was its fruit?
Most of the people I knew who were so “mightily touched” seemed to walk away from church, leave their wives, have break downs or be involved in causing church splits.
All I can see from it all was a lot of bad fruit, false prophesies and nonsensical behaviour and of course the bad fruit of Frank Houston’s lifetime of child sexual abuse. Bad fruit comes from bad trees.
If any good came from it, it was where the real Christians turned to their Scriptures in Berean fashion to prove things one way or the other. Those who found the Truth and contended earnestly for it seem to be the only ones progressed in their faith and produced good fruit in keeping with repentance.
“Have you asked that guy that is convulsing next to Heidi Baker if his life has changed?
Maybe you should find him and ask him and report back to churchwatch central.”
@ Zeeboo, have you ever tried to live free from rebellion against the Word of God? No? I didn’t think so. Maybe you OUGHT to give that one a try someday (after you decide to stop putting your faith in ‘experiences’ and start believing in the Word of God instead, though you’re proving post-after-post that will never happen).
“So how do I do that Vindoor?”
@ ZeeBoo, why do you ask so many ridiculous questions?
You don’t even know how to give it a rest, do you?
Cheers, Team Churchwatch
Found that website via Worldviewweekend. (NB: episode available on Worldview several days before it goes to subscription only).
On that episode he made the claim that churches which preach on the Sovereignty of God have higher numbers of men attending than other churches.
I thought that was an interesting point: have other reformed believers noticed that as well (assume you have attended Arminian churches in past)?
Scripture makes it clear that that sin and death entered this world through Adam, and thus he is to blame for original sin.
Adam was created first from the dust of the ground, and Eve was created from a rib taken from Adam’s side (Genesis 2:7, 21–22). From these verses and others in Genesis 1–3 it is clear that the husband was created to be the leader in the marital relationship and that the wife was created to be the helper (Genesis 2:18). As the leader it was Adam’s responsibility to protect and provide for his family.
This leadership role was clearly demonstrated when God talked with Adam and Eve following their sin. Even though Eve sinned before Adam, God questioned Adam first (Genesis 3:9).
This was because of the leadership role God ordained for husbands in marriage. Adam, as the leader of the family, was held responsible, not only for his own sin of eating from the tree, but also because he did not provide adequate protection for his wife, allowing her to sin.
ZeeBoo – it’s called federal headship
“Federal Headship is foreign to the modern mind, but it is a biblical concept. It is the teaching that the father is the one who represents his family, his descendants. Proof of this can be found in Heb. 7:8-10.
“Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.”
Levi was a distant descendant of Abraham, yet it is said that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek even though Levi hadn’t yet been born. How is this so? It is because Abraham represented his descendants. We know that Levi did not physically carry out the act of paying tithes to Melchizedek, but we know that Abraham did. Therefore, this passage teaches the representative nature of Abraham over his descendants. Without this understanding of this passage, it would not make any sense.
Federal Headship also finds its place in the Epistle of Romans when Paul says in Rom. 5:12-14,
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”
In these verses we see deep theological truths. When Paul says in verse 12 “because all sinned,” he is using what is called the aorist indicative in Greek. This means that it is an action is completed in the past. Therefore, there is a logical implication that we can draw from this. Wayne Grudem in his systematic theology says
“But it was not true that all men had actually committed sinful actions at the time that Paul was writing, because some had not even been born yet, and many others had died in infancy before committing any conscious acts of sin. So Paul must be meaning that when Adam sinned, God considered true that all men sinned in Adam.”1
Also, please consider these two quotes dealing with Federal Headship.
“The federal headship view considers Adam, the first man, as the representative of the human race that generated from him. As the representative of all humans, Adam’s act of sin was considered by God to be the act of all people and his penalty of death was judicially made the penalty of everybody.”2
“The federal headship of Adam presupposes and rests upon his natural headship. He was our natural head before he was our federal head. He was doubtless made our federal representative because he was our natural progenitor, and was so conditioned that his agency must affect our destinies, and because our very nature was on trial (typically if not essentially) in him. Whatever, therefore, of virtue in this explanation the natural headship of Adam may be supposed to contain the federal theory retains.”3
Therefore, it should be clear that Federal Headship teaches that Adam represented us; and when he fell, we fell.
But some may object and say that this is not fair. They will say that we should not be held responsible for Adam’s sin because we didn’t commit his first sin–he did. We are not held responsible for Adam’s sin. We are affected by Adam’s Original sin in two main ways.
First, original sin is the teaching that Adam’s first sin brought to us both guilt and a fallen nature. He brought us guilt in that he represented us; and when Adam died, we died in him. 1 Cor. 15:22 says, “In Adam all die. In Christ all shall be made alive.” Second, since Adam is our ancient biological father, we inherit his sinful nature.
Third, to deny Adam’s representative headship logically leads to a denial of Christ’s representative headship on the Cross.
Jesus represented His people
1 Cor. 15:45 says, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” The “last Adam” is a reference to Jesus because of the similar relationship that exists between Adam and Jesus. That is, both Adam and Jesus are representative heads. Please consider 1 Cor. 15:22 that says, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” This is teaching us that Adam and Christ are heads of groups. Notice “in Adam” and “in Christ” are referencing our position in relationship to both of them.
If Adam did not represent mankind, then Jesus could not represent the Christians when He died on the cross. As Adam’s offense resulted in condemnation to all people, so also, Jesus’ sacrifice results in justification for those who believe in Him (Rom. 5:18). It is because of Federal Headship–legal representation–that we are able to be saved at all. As Adam’s sin was imputed4 to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross; and Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us when we receive Him. In other words, if it was not for the biblical idea of Federal Headship (of one person representing others), then Jesus could not have represented us on the cross. If Jesus did not represent us on the cross, then it could not be said of us that ” . . . you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” (Col. 3:3); and, “Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,” (Rom. 6:8).
Jesus represented us so completely on the cross that it can be said that we have died with Him. If it were not for Federal Headship, this would not be possible; and we could not have died to sin.
Federal Headship is a biblical concept with some very important ramifications. Because of the biblical concept, we are able to enjoy salvation; we have died to sin, and we can rest in Christ who represented us before the Father in His satisfaction of the Law of God.”
Cheers, Team Churchwatch
Read your Bible and you won’t be deceived. Women are not to teach or preach. Women are not to usurp authority over men. And if you still want to listen to women preachers or teachers, then you are in rebellion of God’s written word that calls rebellion witchcraft. Come out from among them.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Who was deceived and sinned against God?
1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The older women can teach the younger women.
Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
wallace z welchstone said:
Typical N.a.r. church, typical N.a.r. leadership, the ‘church’ below is a good example of the gross error of ordaining women ‘pastors’. Rodney howard browne’s ‘church’ The River at Tampa is a prime example of women in leadership. The man is so chock full of error. He often brings in ‘prophets’ to speak to his ‘church’. That is what matters to him/them, the text of Scripture is of little value there. Note how every picture of his so called ‘pastoral staff’ includes a woman ‘pastor’. An insult to God and His Word. However these apostates cannot get enough of their apostasy. Their bellies are full of apostasy and still it is still not enough for them to feast on. It is not ‘ministry’ — it is complete and utter error. Error is dangerous, once you introduce it and embrace it, it is all downhill from there, as is proven at Browne’s ‘church’……..
I don’t think there were any churches in the NT era….
The seven churches in Revelation were literal churches when John was writing about them.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Zeeboo, second chapter in the very first book after the Gospels.
“I don’t think there were any churches in the NT era….”
where do u get all your strange ideas from zeeboo??
“where do u get all your strange ideas from zeeboo??”
From his idols.
this zeeboo seems 2 have lots of idols. he holds many unusual ideas.
What about Phoebe, Priscilla, Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, Rufus’ mother, Julia, Nereus’ sister and all those in Romans 16?
What about them?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“What about Phoebe, Priscilla, Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, Rufus’ mother, Julia, Nereus’ sister and all those in Romans 16?”
You forgot Deborah, ZeeBoo. Like we said in the article, “the MCU have crafted plausible sounding arguments using certain scriptures to justify their rebellion, which have been refuted.”
You’ve fallen for them and refuse to believe the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Can you please start loving Jesus by at least attempting to keep Jesus’ commandments? Otherwise, how can you call yourself a Christian or someone who loves Jesus?
Again and again and again:
Does the Bible support the idea that women can be pastors and elders? No, it does not. According to Scripture women are not to be pastors and elders. Let’s take a look.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterward, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.1 This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let’s take a look.
1 Timothy 2:12-14, “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.”
1 Timothy 3:15, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God,, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man (1 Timothy 2:12) in the church context, “the household of God,” (1 Timothy 3:15). This verse is not about political, social, or economic aspects of the secular realm. It is not about a “patriarchal society” at the time of Paul. This is the instruction to the household of God and anchors its teaching on the doctrinal truth that Adam was created first.
When we look further at Paul’s teachings, we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:2), who manages his household well, and has a good reputation (1 Timothy 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be “men of dignity” (1 Timothy 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says “Let deacons be husbands of one wife…” Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward…” Notice that Paul interchanges the word ‘elder’ and ‘overseer’.
The Greek for “husband of one wife” is found in these verses
1 Timothy 3:2, “andra mias gunaikos”; andra = man/husband; mias = of one; gunaikos = woman/wife
1 Timothy 3:12, “andres mias gynaikos”; andres = men/husbands; mias = of one; gunaikos = woman/wife
Titus 1:6, “aner mias gunaikos”; aner = man/husband; mias = of one; gunaikos = woman/wife
In other words, each is saying a “man of one woman”, or a “one woman man”. Notice that the biblical instruction is that the elders, biship, overseers must be men. ‘Andra’, ‘andres’ and ‘aner’ all are cognates of the same word in Greek meaning man, husband. In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male2. He is the husband of one wife (‘aner mias gunaikas’, ‘man of one woman’), responsible, able to “exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict” (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be “dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things,” (1 Timothy 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Timothy 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.
Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority
God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21) and the church (1 Timothy 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity, there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38), and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).3 Jesus said, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me,” (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure. This applies in the Christian church as well.
In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority over men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
What about Deborah?
In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel and had authority over men. This is true, but the Old Testament judge was not a New Testament elder. The contexts are different. Paul’s instruction is to the New Testament church, not Old Testament judges.
What About Galatians 3:28?
Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law “before faith came” and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are “Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise,” (v. 29).4 The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God’s grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn’t matter who you are – Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way – by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.
This verse is not talking about church structure or offices therein. It is talking about salvation “in Christ.” Therefore, it cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn’t what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2-3 and Titus 1.
But Doesn’t This Teaching Belittle Women?
Male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them. But it must be according to scripture.
Does the wife’s submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. It is not an issue of being belittled. It is an issue of being faithful to God’s word and those who are not, belittled the word of God.
What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?
There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have said that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. God would not act in a manner to contradict his word. Instead, they have usurped the position of men and gone against scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received, are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture. This is, unfortunately, a common occurrence in the Christian church today where experience, desires, and wants are often placed above Scripture.
What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?
Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians, we apply what we learn from the word to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?
First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.
Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, then she should establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby show her submission to it.
Does this also mean that women shouldn’t wear jewelry?
1 Timothy 2:9-13, “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.”
Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders, then the context of 1 Timothy 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments. Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition?
The problem here is that multifaceted. First, the objection ignores what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife. Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male. Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question.
In 1 Timothy 2:9-13, Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed. He uses the example of the then present-day adornment as an example of what not to do. This is a culturally based assessment by Paul. Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet. 3:2). This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude.
In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction. Please note that “The word, hesuchia, translated “quietness” in 1 Timothy 2:11 and silent in verse 12, does not mean complete silence with no talking. It is clearly used elsewhere (Acts 22:2; 2 Thes. 3:12) to mean “settled down, undisturbed, not unruly.” A different word (sigao) means “to be silent, to say nothing” (cf. Luke 18:39; 1 Cor. 14:34).”5 It is not used here. So, Paul is advocating orderliness in this verse, not absolute silence.
Then in verse 12-13, Paul says, “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.” Notice that Paul directly relates the authority issue with the created order. He does not do this with the woman’s dress code. Therefore, the dress code is cultural and the authority issue is doctrinal, since the latter is tied to the creation order and the dress code is not.
God’s word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife. A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female. Whether anyone likes it or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what the Bible teaches.
IfIf you’re in a church where there is a woman pastor, then ask for the biblical reason for her being in that position. of course, to do this is to go against the status quo and you will be met with resistance. Therefore, consider leaving that church. After all, if they can’t get this simple truth right, how can you trust them to get other things right?
If you’re the husband of a woman pastor, then hold your wife to biblical standards as revealed by Paul the apostle. it does not matter if she likes it or not. The issue is the submission to the word of God.
If you’re a husband and wife pastor team, then submit to God’s word and do things right. She needs to stop being called pastor. She needs to stop taking the role of the man.
“You forgot the bit about Phoebe being a Deacon?”
You forgot what we said earlier:
“Just like any cult, the MCU have crafted plausible sounding arguments using certain scriptures to justify their rebellion, which have been refuted.”
Stop defending that which has been refuted. You continually prove you hate the Word of God and stand with the damned. That is a sign of someone who is unregenerate. And considering you have a mind that continually maligns people and twists Gods Word, you need help.
If you want an open mind, open your bible. You clearly just swallow junk you hear people spout without allowing the Holy Spirit in His Word to do the work.
“Another argument raised by the egalitarians is to say that since there were female deacons, i.e., deaconesses as was Phoebe in Rom. 16:1, then it is possible to have been elders and pastors as women also. Some even cite early church literature which has various women deacons mentioned in different contexts. Let’s take a look at both of these arguments.
First of all, the word “deacon” διάκονος (diakonos) and its cognates occur 31 times in the NT and is used in many different ways. Paul calls himself a minister (diakonos) of the gospel in Col. 1:23, 25. Paul went to Jerusalem to serve (diakonos) the saints (Rom. 15:25). Mary spoke to the servants (diakonos) at the wedding in Cana (John 2:5). It is used of serving tables (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2). Jesus came not to be served, but to serve (diakonos), (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Tychicus is a minister (diakonos) of the Lord (Col. 4:7) as is Timotheus (1 Thess. 3:2).
Rom. 16:1 says, “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea.” Many argue that since Pheobe is called a deacon, then it means women are eligible to hold the formal office of deacon. But this is not conclusive at all. Phoebe is simply called a servant (diakonon) which can be rendered differently in different Bibles: “minister” (Darby, YLT), “servant” (ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV), “helper” (NCV), “deacon” (NLT, NRSV), and “deaconess” (RSV).
The term “diakonos” is used of an office with special requirements that women cannot meet. “Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,” (1 Tim. 3:8). And, “Let deacons be husbands of only one wife [lit. one woman man’] and good managers of their children and their own households,” (1 Tim. 3:12). See also Phil. 1:1.
So, we can conclude that there is a broad sense of how the term is used regarding being a servant, a minister, a helper, etc. We can also conclude that there is a special requirement for the office of deacon that limits eligibility to men. This requirement is that deacons be the husband of one wife and good managers of their children and households. Also, we must note that we see the same criteria here as we do for elders and bishops. It is quite apparent that there is a special office of Deacon that is intended for men only.
Still, some egalitarians claim that early church writings show that women held the office of Deaconess within the first few centuries. Even if this is so, and we are not saying it is in any official church office position, each citation would have to be examined in context.
“Ecclesiastical usage institutionalized and narrowed the NT conception. Early non-canonical literature recognizes a class of deacons without specifying their functions (cf. 1 Clement 42; Ignatius, Magnesians 2.1; Trallians 2. 3; 7. 3). Later literature shows the deacons undertaking functions such as attending the sick, which must have been part of Christian diakonia in apostolic times.”1
If the early church did have deaconesses, how were the offices defined? Were they in places of authority and were they teaching? If women held the office, how were they husbands of one wife? Or, as the Scriptures show, were they servants of the church–helping to take care of the needs of God’s people?
Again, even if the early churches actually had women in the office of Deacon, those same churches would have to deal with the issue of the scripture proclaiming the requirement of that office to include being men–the husband of one wife. It would make much more sense to say that deaconesses were seen as servants in the church and were not filling the specific, official church office with its requirement of being males.
In today’s Christian setting, churches define the office of Deacon differently. Some see the deaconate as a service to God’s people while others see it as an office having authority. It would seem that both could be supported in Scripture but the latter definition belongs to men who are the husbands of one wife.
“She is referred to as a ‘deacon’ (in the Greek, there is no distinction between the masculine and feminine forms) of the church in Cenchreae. Despite Phil. 1:1, it is unlikely that this term designates any official position, as in modern ecclesiastical organizations; it may be paraphrased as ‘co-worker in the missionary enterprise.”2
One last thing to think about. It is the way of the world to impose its will upon the church and try to make God’s people conform to its ways. This should never be the case with God’s church. Christians should never wet their fingers, stick them into the air, and see which way the secular wind is blowing so as to appease those outside its doors. Rather, its job is to speak the truth no matter what the world says. We are to do it with gentleness (1 Pet. 3:15), but we are to defend the truth–not compromise its teachings. And, in this case, God has said what he has said. Let his word stand and may those who contradict it answer to God. The deacon is to be a man of dignity (1 Tim. 3:8) just as Paul has stated is the case in the operation of the household of God (1 Tim. 3:15).”
Thank you Churchwatch for this article and for your lengthy response to ZeeBoo in refutation of his arguments.
As someone who has recently come out of the charismatic church, knowing that so many things were amiss but not being able to articulate or necessarily pinpoint what the errors are, I often read articles like your own, as well as many books on reformed teaching in order to establish a sound theology based on sola-scriptura. Unfortunately, arguments like those brought by ZeeBoo and those brought up in the Charismatics and Pentecostal Movement can sound convincing and it’s so helpful to read why and where the errors are. Having the veil of Charisma removed, I’ve found I just have to re-learn the truth verse by verse. So again, thank you for taking the time to answer the Romans 16:1 question – it’s obvious when you put it like that!
And unfortunatelty ZeeBoo does not care about the truth. He desires to continue in willful ignorance, even hating & despising correction. On top of that, he is hell-bent on taking everyone else down with him that he can. Such a terrible pity, that ZeeBoo is. No desire to know the truth, only the desire to continue in & proliferate lies he hears at Hillsong. He argues against the truth every chance he gets. And scoffs at those who bear it to him.
He is not alone. I have seen multiple visitors of his same ilk come here, with the same lame arguments, hating the truth the same way ZeeBoo does.
His ignorance has proved profitable for me though in that I have now heard and received the truth. My thanks were for the purpose of encouraging all who address such comments; it is not in vain as there are others (like me 😊) who will read your responses and grow through them. You never know who’s “listening.”
Barbara A. McLure said:
For some time I’ve had my concerns about Beth Moore. Discerning her wanting to bring attention to herself, by demonstrating ‘humility’ also how ‘cute,’ she can be to her audience. One can see right through her, by her intentionally or unintentionally ways.
“One can see right through her….”
You can, I can, Church watcher can, the usual posters here can,
but the average Christian appears to not be able to (including ZeeBoo). Those are near-oblivious to what is going on.
ZeeBoo – 2 Timothy 2:15 “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth…”
Discussion continues when you apply the above.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Big Tex said:
“Not keen to discuss the hard stuff anymore?”
Enough with your puffed up ego already. It’s gotten very old Zeeboo.
You weren’t even able to handle the “easy stuff”. The “hard stuff” is waaaay out of your antichrist-loving league.
“The “hard stuff” is waaaay out of your antichrist-loving league.”
Meat is only for the mature, a state/status that ZeeBoo can only fantasize about.
What a very strong Reformed theology stance that not only condemns all women speakers, but adds a list of women accused of being in error because they are women who speak in public gatherings.
No complementarianism then. Only exclusivism and segregation of the sexes.
This is a list of women to be verbally attacked on these sites, mostly for being women in ministry of some kind. Again, this is not the meaning of complementarianism. It does not allow for women to be permitted by men to take part in the decision making processes of church life.
You give a list that condemns, whilst the Apostle Paul gives a list of women in ministry he commends.
We know that Priscilla and Aquilla were responsible for training Apollos in the Word of God when it became apparent that he had a teaching gift. Paul speaks highly of them both.
1 Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. All the brethren greet you.
Chuchwatcher – Condemns
Apostle Paul – Commends
Simple as that.
Acts 18:26 “and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.”
There is nothing wrong with people who are not elders or pastors in the church explaining the doctrines of salvation to someone. But this is not the same as holding the office of pastor or elder.
1 Tim. 2:11-13“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.”
1 Timothy 2:11-13 is dealing with how people are to behave inside the church because Paul says so in 1 Tim. 3:15 ” . . . I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” Acts 18:26 exemplifies the freedom anyone would have to present the gospel.
Simple as that.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch
Greg, you are a liar who misrepresents the Word of God for your own ignorant folly.
Simple as that.
Donnie – I will pray for your negative attitude and unforgiving heart
“Donnie – I will pray for your negative attitude and unforgiving heart”
Why? I don’t have either of those things Greg. You are not genuine at all, twisting things around like that. You should get on your knees and pray for your deceitful heart.
Is my comment going to be included? Or is it not appropriate?
Does CW believe in the Supernatural?
As in Sid Roth, no. Define supernatural….
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“As in Sid Roth, no. Define supernatural….”
Wow ! Really. I am amazed.
So you don’t believe God can heal people’s minds?
You don’t believe in physical healing?
Greg – that’s a bunny trail.
That’s not what we asked, what does healing minds have to do with the question “define supernatural”?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Doc Gospel said:
“Does CW believe in the Supernatural?”
Does Greg believe in the supremacy of the Bible? Or in using Greg’s experiences to interpret the Bible?
charlie 1992 said:
“Wow ! Really. I am amazed.”
greg why are you amazed that church watcher does not agree with heretic sid roth?
greg, answer this. have you ever watched sid roth’s tv show? if no, why are you even making comments on it?
sid roth is a looney-toon. and he invites other looney-toons onto his show.
greg, do you agree with sid roth & his selection of guests? fess up. yes, or no?
charlie 1992 said:
greg stop running away with your tail between your legs like a coward every time someone asks you a question you can’t answer.
do you agree with sid roth & his selection of guests? tell us your answer.
Never heard of Sid Roth until CW mentioned it.
I probably don’t agree with some of the stuff that goes on but I also don’t agree with some of the stuff that goes on here as well.
There you go – I answered your question.
So CW, I would be keen to hear your interpretation of the Supernatural with regard to healing, physical and emotional.
charlie 1992 said:
“I probably don’t agree with some of the stuff that goes on”
ok at least thats good. glad to hear you dont agree with something somewhere else that is a falsehood.
Oh my God!! It can’t be possible that Marvel Cinematical Universe (MCU) is a threat to christianity.
The long list of women “teachers” are only in this for the money. If there were no money involved, they would not have any incentive to “teach”.
They violate Paul’s instructions in the Bible for women to not be over men. Furthermore their incentive is for money. That is greedy not to mention also rebellion.