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Tag Archives: Brian

Transcript of Brian Houston’s ‘nice’ interview with Mark & Grace Driscoll

14 Tuesday Jul 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Hillsong Conference

≈ 32 Comments

Tags

Brian, Brian Houston, crocodile tears, Driscoll, Grace Dirscoll, Grace Driscoll, Hillsong, Hillsong Conference 2014, Hillsong Conference 2015, hillsong conference scandal, houston, interview, kangaroo court, lie, lies, manipulation, Mark Driscoll, scandal

We have decided to transcribe the interview between Brian Houston and Mark/Grace Driscoll that was aired at Hillsong Conference 2015. Brian Houston stated that he talked with Mark and Grace Driscoll for “an hour and fifty three minutes” but managed to edit the interview to be “fifty minutes” long. So we would greatly appreciate it if people can help fix any errors or fill in words or phrases that we could not understand. To listen to the audio of this interview – click here.

CROCODILE TEARS IN A KANGAROO COURT

Brian Houston has given Driscoll a platform to repackage, re-market and re-launch as a Pastor on the preaching network. The result was a one-sided, orchestrated, kangaroo court where Driscoll elicited sympathy and support.

We called it all right. Driscoll played the victim card at Hillsong Conference 2015.

Before reading the interview, we would emphatically encourage you read to read the below article, researching all the things Mark Driscoll has done to people in his church. Does Mark Driscoll come across as someone who qualifies the biblical requirements of “pastor” in Titus and 1 & 2 Timothy?

You know something is wrong with Driscoll when he is invited to speak at Hillsong Conference…

We believe with certainty that Brian Houston’s interview with Mark and Grace Driscoll was crafted to rebuttal the negative media attention. How did we come to this conclusion? If you re-listen to Sunrise and Lateline’s broadcasts concerning Mark Driscoll coming to speak at the Hillsong Conference, both make mention of his derogatory remarks towards women and his bullying behavior towards staff and congregant members. In this interview, Mark Driscoll is given the opportunity to clarify and apologize for his misogynistic messages along with his abusive attitude.

So what’s the problem? What if you were told that Mark Driscoll misused church funds to buy his way onto the New York Times Best Seller’s List? What if you were told that several of Mark Driscoll’s books contained plagiarized material? What if you were told that on page 105 of Mark Driscoll’s book, “Vintage Church,” he wrote, “plagiarism… subverts God’s work in and through you…If you use the work of others, you are not a teacher, and you should quit your job and go do anything but speak?” What if you were told that Mark Driscoll was teaching young pastors to throw people “off the bus” and “run them over” if they didn’t get behind their visions? (“I believe in blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus [sycophantic laughter] and by God’s grace there’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done.”)

After reading the transcript below, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did this interview shed light on any of Mark Driscoll’s past sins or only offer eye candy?
2. Why hasn’t Brian Houston called Mark Driscoll to repent of ALL the sins he’s committed?
3. Since Mark Driscoll did NOT publicly repent for any of these past sins and attempt to fix his wrongs and be up front, is he truly repentant?
4. What were Brian Houston and Mark Driscoll implying other Christians were if they did not embrace Driscoll’s crocodile repentance?
5. Where was the gospel that makes people accountable to Mark Driscoll’s sins?

What was on display was their low standard of godliness, repentance, their low standard of church discipline and behaviour towards others; and their low standard of responsibility to those they shepherd. Which doesn’t surprise us considering how Brian Houston has let leadership immorality slide in the past regarding the Guglielmucci scandal, the Pat Mesiti scandal and Brian Houston’s own personal scandal involving him covering up his father’s paedophilia.

Please consider this as you read the below transcript. Take time and ponder each of the points made and consider the implications. A lot is done under the guise of ‘nice’ in this interview.

We will offer a more deeper analysis of this interview in a later post.

Brian and Driscoll interview

BRIAN HOUSTON’S INTERVIEW WITH MARK DRISCOLL

Brian Houston: “I, uh, appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, and looking forward to having a conversation about you guys, your past, and where you’re at right now. And some of the pain perhaps, and some of the joys that have gone with your journey. And ultimately, what you see for yourselves ahead. So, welcome.” (00:01-00:19)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you, yeah, thank you for making time for the both of us we really appreciate it.” (00:19-00:22)

Grace Driscoll: “Thank you for having us.”

Brian Houston: “Great. And so you Mark, how did you come to faith?” (00:24-00:26)

Mark Driscoll: “We, uh, Grace graduated a year before me, and went off to college and then I graduated and went off to a different college and she came back to a little vibrant relationship with the Lord at that time. And, uh, she had given me actually this bible, it’s why I brought it, it’s a special Bible as a gift and I started reading it in college as a freshman and God saved me reading the Bible.” (00:25-00:48)

Brian Houston: “That’s good and so how old were you, were you then?” (00:48-00:49)

Mark Driscoll: “I got saved when I was 19 a freshman in college.” (00:50-00:53)

Brian Houston: “Good age to get saved.” (00:53-00:56)

Mark Driscoll: “We got married in college.” (00:56-00:57)

Grace Driscoll: “Before our senior year we got married in college. And, started a church community together and started teaching bible studies right away. And anything he learned he’d teach right away to someone else because we was so excited about the Gospel.” (00:57-01:12)

Brian Houston: “So now you’ve been married how long?” (01:12-01:14)

Grace Driscoll: “Twenty-five years.” (01:14-01:16)

Brian Houston: “Children?”

Grace Driscoll: “Five kids.”

Brian Houston: “Five kids?”

Grace Driscoll: “Nine, eleven, thirteen, fifteen, and seventeen.”

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, three boys two girls. We’ve been together 27 years. Neither of us was a math major.” [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “I hope the door’s not open.”

Mark Driscoll: “We’ve dated 4 years so uh, we’ve been married 23 years. I think.” [Laughter]

Grace Driscoll: “Yeah, maybe two.” [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “Those kids, those kids. So what was the journey towards starting Mars Hill?” (01:14-01:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah when I was uh, a new Christian in college I went to my first men’s retreat uh, with the church. And uh, was just getting time out praying with the Lord. And he spoke to me and said, “I want you to marry Grace, preach the Bible.” And so, I had with me [Inaudible] Bible with me at the time, “to train men and to plant churches.” And he spoke to me on those four things and to confirm that I brought that back to my Pastor. And said, “I think the Lord spoke to me,” and said, “What did he say?” So here’s what he said, “Well that sounds like something the Lord would say so that sounds reasonable.” So, um, so we felt called to move back to Seattle, we were about a 5 hour drive from the college back to Seattle. We moved back and um, interned in a church doing college ministry as a volunteer for a year or two. And then started a Bible study in our home that we taught together that was the core for Mars Hill. And uh, and then that ultimately got planted as Mars Hill church um, 18 years ago would be now.” (01:47-02:48)

Brian Houston: “So you were 25 I was 29 when I started Hillsong church. So, I felt like I was young. Well, at the time I didn’t really, but I look back now and think that’s young. So 25 is quite young, so.” (02:48-02:58)

Mark Driscoll: “I’ve made a lot of mistakes, and one of them was going too fast. There’s the Lord’s calling and then there’s the Lord’s timing. And, uh, I should have waited, uh, longer, I should have been under Godly spiritual authority for Grace and I to be under a Godly couple that was senior pastor so that we could learn and grow. And I, I, my character was not caught up with my gifting and uh, and I did start too young. And I believe God called us to start the church and he was very very very gracious to us uh. But had I do it over again I would not look at a 25 year old and say do what I did.” (02:59-03:35)

Brian Houston: “Well your heart for the church then. And what was, your, what were you really, what did you have in your heart, what did you have in mind for the type of church that you wanted to pastor?” (03:35-3:44)

Mark Driscoll: “Um, I’m a Bible teacher, and I wanted to see people to meet Jesus. Um, Seattle at the time was one of the least churched cities in America and we went into the urban core and we felt called specifically to go after young college educated males. Um, and uh, that was really my heart. I wanted everybody to meet Jesus, but I, I felt particularly uh, if we were going to make a difference in the city and in the legacy of families. And the way, you know, women and children and culture is is, is, is treated that getting young men to love Jesus would be paramount. So that was really the focus, and I didn’t think, we didn’t think the church would amount to much. The first three years we didn’t collect a salary, it was very small, we met at night, we moved a lot because we kept loosing our well locations, the offices were in our house. And so it wasn’t a big deal and we didn’t anticipate that it would become what it ultimately did.” (03:44-04:40)

Brian Houston: “So when, what stage did you start really getting attraction and momentum?” (04:41-04:43)

Mark Driscoll: “Um, well, we got a small building given to us a couple of years in and started our first morning service. And we had only done night to that point, and that went from 40 to maybe 800 in a year. And at that time the church was small, maybe 100 people, and so a lot of people got saved, massive conversions. And so, um, we had some surges like that in the history of the church, it was really amazing, it was God’s grace, we were able to baptize altogether, um, around 10,000 people. I think the majority of which were single college educated men who didn’t come from Christian families. And so, we would have seasons were just a lot of people get saved. And uh, it was just the grace of God, there’s no other way to really, uh, to really explain what God was doing, yeah.” (04:44-05:32)

Brian Houston: “So the last year obviously has been a turbulent year for you both, personally, and for your family. In fact, I’m sure more than the last year, the last three years, uh, and, obviously for your former church as well, Mars Hill. I guess the first question is how you’re both doing.” (05:33-05:48)

Grace Driscoll: “Thank you for asking. [Laughter] Um, it has been a hard year, and uh, we’ve seen God’s faithfulness and it’s the trail, we’re thankful for that. There’s been a lot of loss and we love our church, and loved being apart of it, and felt honored that God would call us to help lead such an amazing, um, group of people. So, that has been hard and watching the kids and the pain that they’ve had to, to experience in the grieving process.” (05:49-06:24)

Brian Houston: “You know, I’m totally sorry, I don’t mean to cut you off, but I totally understand that with your children. I always find that children feel things for us more deeply than we even feel, and uh, that’s always been a pastor’s son and understand as a Pastor’s kid, you know, in my own family I think maybe only those who’ve been in that situation can understand.” (06:25-06:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Well when, the, the kids grow up in the church it feels like an extension of the family. So, like for our oldest, she uh, she was born right around the time we sort of, started the church. So, all the original bible studies were in the living room and she was on people’s laps. And she was, you know, part of that church. And so she was, she was someone who grew up in the church and grew up with the church. And so you have that line as the founding family between church and family it gets a little blurred. And so when the church family transitions it leaves the kids in a difficult place. And you don’t want them to become embittered, you don’t want them to be angry, you don’t want them. I mean, even for my contributions and my sins and my faults I feel something I don’t want my kids to become embittered against me or anyone else or with the Lord. And so, we’ve been walking through that with them.” (06:47-07:44)

Brian Houston: “Alright. If I could change track a little, you’re reformed in your theology?” (07:45-07:48)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (07:49)

Brian Houston: “So, can you explain to me in two or three sentences what that means, to be reformed?” (07:50-07:58)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I, I would say it’s God centered not man centered. Uh, that the whole Bible is ultimately about the personal work of Jesus, and that when it comes to salvation it is a work that God does. Uh, and we respond to that but we don’t participate in that. Uh, I, I wouldn’t want to argue over the five points of Calvinism or get into all the details back and forth. Um, but historical protestant christianly, um, and I’d say in the past. I, uh, would’ve fought for reformed theology since it’s supposed to be a theology that’s centered in grace, fighting for it is probably not the best representation of it.” (07:59-08:43)

Brian Houston: “If I asked a third thing broad question. Obviously in recent years, you as a, as a person, as a leader, as a pastor, has become more and more controversial, and in the minds of some people, toxic, and, is there any, I mean, big picture how do you feel about that?” (08:44-09:03)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah this whole season I’ve been largely out of public ministry for around a year with a few, you know, exceptions. I have a Godly wise older pastor somebody that we really look to as a pastor in our lives he said that we need to put down the binoculars and pick up the mirror. You know, stop looking at what everyone else is saying and doing and look at yourself. And so that’s really been the focus, particularly for me, uh, but to a lesser degree for us this past year. And uh, and I think that, uh, there’s no way for me to say, uh, that I have, um, always acted with grace or with, um, uh appropriateness. There has been anger, there’s been, uh.”(09:04-09:09:49)

Brian Houston: “Were there mistakes did you ever respond with grace?” (09:51-09:24)

Mark Driscoll: “I I believe so, yes, I don’t believe every day I was a, uh, a combative, and uh, maybe uh, loud mouthed person. But certainly, um, that has been sadly, part of my, uh, ministry leadership. And so, um, and I think that can be confusing for people. Some people see me primarily as a loving, gracious person, and others have seen me as a person whose angry or short tempered or careless with words and harmful. And, and so, and so that contributes to the confusion.” (09:25-10:28)

Brain Houston: “Yeah, at the very least you become polarizing when I say because at the Hillsong Conference interestingly now that you’re not one of our speakers or even being interviewed at the conference, we’ve had some, not too many, but we’ve had some delegates who want a refund. They don’t want to come anymore because you’re not coming. And of course, there was protests and so on because you were coming.” (10:29-10:49)

Mark Driscoll: “I apologize that you were put in that position, um, that is my doing, and, and I would say-“ (10:49-10:55)

Brian Houston: “I don’t feel like you owe me any apology though.” (10:55-10:56)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, but I do, and you’ve uh, and I mean even this is an act of grace and you don’t owe me anything, and uh, and I, I, man, I hope there’s a way in the future to be a person of peace and not a point of division. Uh, and so I appreciate this opportunity to, to make an effort that…” (10:57-11:13)

Brian Houston: “Sure… You once said Mark [Applause] I had a good mission that some of my tactics were born out of anger and burned out, and I did a lot of harm and damage, what attracted a lot of attention. Um, so I guess my question is, do you feel like it’s been sort of your tactics, your message, and the message of the Gospel has been lost to the controversy.” (11:14-11:35) 

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, there were times that I uh, I drove myself to a point of uh, you mentioned some of the physical I’ve had, fatigue to drainal glands to intestinal ulcers. There were times where I drove myself to a point of not being well. And, and what that does as well as it drives your team uh, beyond their limits, and they feel unloved or uncared for. And uh, and now taking this time off, and really reflecting on all of that I see that. And I regret that and I hope whatever the Lord has for me in the future that I will draw people in and not drive people and that my empathy level will increase.” (11:36-12:18)

Brian Houston: “So so would the word bully be would’ve been an accurate description you think?” (12:18-12:22)

Mark Driscoll: “I think for sure on occasions yeah. I think, um, I think on occasions sometimes, um, strong leaders there’s a line where you’re, you’re wanting to advance a mission and you need everybody to be aligned with that. And there are other times where there is a lack of grace or empathy. I mean one of the things that’s been really helpful in this season for me is some godly older families. Pastors and their families who have opened their lives to us and we get to enter more in that grandparent season and we get to see them with their spouse and with their children and then see them on the stage and then see them with their board and see them with their staff. And there’s a, there’s a, a more parental leadership style, like a mom and a dad that love, and still carry a lot of authority and create unity.”

Grace Driscoll: “More good.”

Mark Driscoll: “But more good for the people. And um, and so, you know, my hope and my prayer for myself through all of this is then to learn how to grow in that kind of uh, strong, but parental loving, nurturing, affectionate leadership. Um, you know, and one of the things that was convicting in this more recent season we were talking through the spiritual gifts and my sons when we got to encouragement and mercy they said. “Oh, like you dad,” and uh, I thought wow, nobody has ever accused me of that, but I thought but they’re seeing it all somehow I, I do love them. And I, I want good for them and they know that, and like I said observing some of these other families that are mature in leadership how to transition that sort of parental affection into pastoral ministry.” (12:23-14:09)

Brian Houston: “You, obviously you can’t live in regret. But if you did have your time over again what would you change?” (14:11-14:16)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I mean I would’ve waited longer um, to start the church. I would’ve brought us under a godly spiritual couple and oversight to pastor us. I would’ve not went out until they said it was time. I would’ve had them service my over sighting governance. Um, I would’ve paid more attention to, uh, emotional health and well being and any bitterness in my own soul so that there wasn’t anger or hurt or defensiveness that was driving some of my motivation. Uh, and uh, I would’ve been, uh, more keen to draw grace out, um, so that we could work through some issues in our past so that we would’ve been more aligned and better friends early in the ministry. In more recent years we really worked on the friendship and we’re really close, but the early years we, we didn’t have that kind of connection that we do in more recent years. And that, that contributed to my, to my tone and my anger and affected my disposition negatively, and that’s my fault.” (14:17-15:20)

Brian Houston: “I think for me over the years my perception of strong leadership has changed dramatically. I think what I thought was strong then was probably hot head basically and what I see as strong now is coming out of a place of security, Godly confidence, knowing where you’re going. So I can identify to a point at least in your journey, and, and the truth is everyone’s made mistakes, some obviously much bigger mistakes with much more difficult outcomes than others. But anyone who has been in the ministry for any period of time and especially started young have made mistakes. Uh, I don’t feel personally like you’re on your own in that, but obviously there’s been a huge fallout from some of the mistakes you have made.” (15:21-16:10)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (16:10)

Brian Houston: “Yeah.” (16:11)

Grace Driscoll: “There’s better progression from youth and trying to control things to make them happen verses over maturing years influence and loving people through that influencing them. Um, by loving them to what’s best for them and so I’ve watched that progression and it’s been wonderful to see.” (16:12-16:36)

Brian Houston: “May I ask you the next question by telling you a story. Many years ago I knew a pastor in another part of the world who very legalistic, very rigid, very legalistic, and in that very hard on other people. And then, came to a point in his life where he made a mistake and he desperately needed people and the people weren’t there for him and he basically because a victim of his own world. You know, his own world devote. And so if I look at your world and the way you’ve ministered even publicly in your earlier years, and, you know, you created a name for your world. Um, and you feel like perhaps it was that angry world that devoured you, the world that you yourself created?” (16:37-17:21)

Mark Driscoll: “I think there, there is a measure of truth in that and I have no one to blame but myself. You can’t, um, have a certain tone or um, disposition and then when that is reciprocated toward you feel that you’re a victim. Um, so, and what’s been interesting in this too the people that have walked towards us with their hands out to love and encourage are people that are outside of our tribe. Um, there are some old friends that have stuck with us and have been very wonderful towards us but a lot of new friends too and people that, um, that we would disagree on some secondary theological issues. And uh, I have a friend who is maybe more like this person, or pastor, pretty legalistic, and, there’s a box for everything and you gotta to check all the right boxes. And he said, you know, I don’t some of these people’s theology is right. And I said, well, I think love and grace is good theology. And it’s not just what we put on paper, it’s how we treat one another.” (17:22-18:24)

Brian Houston: “I know some of the people who have stuck with you, and was that a surprise to you? Some of the people who have come and sort of just stood quietly with you?” (18:25-18:33)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, and it’s been very humbling. Um, and it’s been very encouraging and very hopeful, like, knowing whatever God has for us next these are the people that are wise counsel, um, we’re just very richly blessed by that.” (18:34-18:46)

Brian Houston: “I guess one of the, the things that you were known for several years that’ve gone by was public criticism of other pastors and leaders. And probably the first time I’ve actually ever heard of you wasn’t because of your Bible teaching or because of your books. Or, it was actually because of your attacks on other people. So I guess would that be another area where you have regrets? Or, would you still defend that?” (18:47-19:11)

Mark Driscoll: “I would not defend that. I feel like I’ve lost any right to criticize another pastor or leader. I believe that the lack of the cause made to think I knew what they were going through or what they should say or what they should do. Having gone through this very complicated season, I don’t know what I’m supposed to say, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, and I certainly don’t feel the right to tell others what they should say or do. And, um, yeah, I think going forward with the fact that some of the people that I’ve criticized have been the most loving and kind toward me. Um, it’s God’s kindness that leads us to repentance and sometimes that kindness comes through others who have no obligation to be kind and gracious because you have not been with them. And so, um, yeah, so we’ve seen, we’ve seen some remarkable grace and kindness from people that, I did not give that to them, but they’ve given that to us. And that has been deeply convicting and brought about repentance, and there’s a list of people pastors who I have contacted to call to apologize to, to ask forgiveness from. And I don’t want to do that publicly because I don’t want to cause them more drama or pain, but that has been part of the journey.” (19:12-20:32)

Brian Houston: “I’ve always had a huge personal problem with, people doing that, people criticizing other pastors even though perhaps were are different on some issues. You know, and Joel Osteen is a personal friend of mine. And so, again, one of the first things I knew about you was, you know that you talked and made a joke publicly. So when I first met you I was paranoid because the last thing I wanted was Mark Driscoll speaking against me publicly.” (20:32-21:00)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I can, I think through the providence of God I can honestly say it was a couple of weeks ago that the Lord convicted me of that sin against Pastor Joel. And so I, through a mutual friend, have contact with his team, and have asked permission to send him a private apology. But in addition to that I appreciate this opportunity to publicly apologize to him. When anyone dies they’re going to stand and give an account and it won’t be to Mark Driscoll.” (21:00-21:25)

Brian Houston: “Yeah, I just feel that life has too much to hold us all together. We can so easily build around the things that pull us apart and difference. I’ve often said at pastor’s gatherings I don’t know who your enemy is but they’re not of this room. [Murmurs] And, you know I just feel like God is big, God is diverse and none of us have all of the truth. And uh, in our hands and in our power, and so I just love to have an attitude where, sure right and right and wrong is wrong, but at the end of the day we’re all on the same side. I think if I look at our own world I think if you talked about the tone, the tone of voice, if you’d like, of our church and our minister leaders is definitely grace oriented. Hopefully it’s definitely generous not just with finance but with words and heart, and being spirited. And that’s why I guess some of that, you know that anger that’s in some sections of the body of Christ feels so shocking to me.” (21:26-22:32) 

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah and, and I think that, uh, the age of internet and social media increases that. Um, because you can make a lot of statements and declarations without relationships. And uh, I am theologically reformed in my core convictions and I am also charismatic so I kind of flow between both worlds. But um, but once Martin Luther nailed his 95 Thesis it seems like every 20 year old guy with a blog is going to try to do the same thing on the internet. You know, here’s my declaration to the world of how the church should be. And so um, I think Luther had some good things to share, guys like me and others, perhaps didn’t have as much crid to share.” (22:32-23:11)

Brian Houston: “My my flesh when it comes to sometimes the angry people the angry brothers on the, on social media is uh, obviously relatively big high platform. And often times the interview is a very small platform. And my, my temptation often is to react which is really just giving them a leg up onto my platform, and so.”(23:11-23:33)

Mark Driscoll: “I’ve failed at that many times. And it’s shameful.”

Brian Houston: “Well I have to admit I’m ashamed when it happens.”

(23:33-23:42)

Brian Houston: “Good, well listen, just on the area of theology, and in the outworking practice of that theology, you’ve obviously had some time to reflect and to meditate. Is there any aspect of what you believe that you would soften or the outworking the every day outworking of what you believe you would soften from days gone by?” (23:40-24:03)

Mark Driscoll: “Just, overall a massive increase in evaluational relationships. I was talking to, as I was traveling just to go meet with pastors and learn one said, he said “your life is defined by your relationships, for good or for bad.” And uh, I’ve been journaling a lot, cause I, there are some days I’m a little brain foggy, and I don’t want to forget. I want to remember these things and integrate them into my repentance and integrate them into my life and revisit them. And I wrote that down and thought, “Yeah, I think for sure, you look at the Bible and it’s so simple but it’s so obvious. I mean, God is a relational God, Father Son and Spirit, it’s not good for us to be alone, that sin separates and Jesus reconciles and part of the outgrowth of good, Biblical thinking and practice is loving, healthy, functional, supportive relationships. And so, we’ve learned a lot, I’ve learned a lot, but that this is grace centered relationships. And so this season has been okay, relationships, what needs to grow and mature um, in me and around me?” (24:04-25:18)

Brian Houston: “So do you I guess take accountability for the breakup effectively of Mars Hill Church?” (25:19-25:25)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I think as the leader I have to bear the lion’s share of responsibility for that.” (25:26-25:29)

Brian Houston: “So again, you know, looking at you from a distance. When I first heard about you, your theological belief about women and women in ministry and women in leadership. Uh, my feeling was, if there was one thing that was going to be a red raid to the bull to the secular media it was that subject right there. Has that proven to be the proof?” (25:30-25:55)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, the fact that I can’t even come see you in Australia indicates that you were on to something. Um, yeah for me I would start by saying that some of the misperception is entirely my fault. On some things I said and did that were ungodly, they were lies, and they were unhelpful. And it was on a chatroom in 2000 getting angry, taking a character roll fighting, very ungodly, nothing defensible, things that I’m completely sorry for and the offense is completely justified.” (25:56-26:33)

Brian Houston: “How old were you then?” (26:34)

Mark Driscoll: “Uh, I was in my late 20’s.” (26:35-26:36)

Brian Houston: “In your late 20’s.” (26:36)

Mark Driscoll: “And then, uh, had that taken down, met with the people that  I knew were involved and weren’t under pseudonyms and apologized to them. Uh, thought that it was, you know, removed. In 2006 I wrote a book where I listed it as one of the failures in my leaderships, things I had done wrong. And then in 2014 that content was reposted on the internet. I made a public apology and acknowledgement for that, um, it is one of the grave regrets of my life um, especially now that I’ve got a daughter who is a godly, strong leader. It’s just like, I can’t read some of the things that I said because I feel so horrified that I should’ve, um, [Inaudible] I wouldn’t seek to justify or blame anyone or make any excuses. I publicly want to apologize for that, I want to sincerely apologize for that and that perception of what I think about women is entirely my own fault and I have no one to blame but myself.” (26:37-27:45)

Brian Houston: “For me what was strange the stone that was being repeated over and over in mainstream media, was what is quite vulgar, it was, that, women are penis homes. The Israel women as being a home for a penis. And of course, that’s, that uh is very inflammatory. So what was going on in your own life at the time that you would say something like that?” (27:46-28:06)

Mark Driscoll: “That is not a position, that uh, what I said um, is not representative of what I think or how I feel. Looking back on that, um, that was not a healthy person working from a godly place. And so I would have a hard time explaining it I wouldn’t even make an effort to defend it.” (28:07-28:30)

Brian Houston: “The other thing that the Australian Media was showing over and over was something I had actually seen before. And it was when I think you were talking to men and you were screaming, “Who the Hell do you think you are?” So I’m sure you remember that moment.” (28:31-28:44)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah that was uh, that was a moment in first Peter where it talks about husbands, you know, be compassionate and kind and tender with your wives. And I started talking about men who abuse women. Um, I, the times that I do sometimes get angry is when men are physically sexually assaulting women. And it’s uh, and I think that pornography helps men have a mindset that causes women to be devalued.” (28:45-29:17)

Brian Houston: “So that was the context.” (29:18)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (29:18)

Brian Houston: “You were talking to people.” (29:19-29:21) 

Mark Driscoll: “To men who abuse women like men who hit their wife or girlfriend and who sexually assault or abuse that was the context that was first Peter.”(29:21-29)

Brian Houston: “But you did sound very angry.” (29:29-29:30)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (29:30)

Brian Houston: “It was very passionate. And the fact again, one of the first preaching clips I’d saw of you was someone showing me that.” (29:31-29:36)

Mark Driscoll: “I yelled a lot.” (29:37) [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “So the heart behind it was good. But the-“ (29:38-29:40)

Grace Driscoll: “Yes, the desire was good, the method was not mature or Godly.” (29:41-29:46)

Brian Houston: “And again I think going from where I stand, you’re not the only one whose got the method wrong from time to time. The thing about life is, it’s long. And we, as believers, and especially as preachers and teachers we say a lot of words. Yeah, a lot of words come out-“ (29:47-30:02)

Mark Driscoll: “Paul says when words are many sin is not absent.” (30:02-30:05)

Brian Houston: “Yeah. Unfortunately you can’t pull them back again. So I don’t know of any public speaker who has done it for any length of time who wouldn’t have said something sometime that was a little silly or with a bit of regret. But it’s amazing how we can look at someone else and somehow seems worse when it’s them then when when it’s us.” (30:06-30:22)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah but then again I think if we’re fair. I you know, as you treat others you’ll be treated in kind, and so I brought some of that on myself too.”(30:23-30:30)

Brian Houston: “When it comes to women and ministry, and especially in ministry and in church life and in leadership, you would know indefinitely be taking a different stance as Hillsong. We’ve got women involved in leadership roles at most areas of church life. Pretty much in everything else women are involved. So that’s why I’m intrigued with women and where we stand on it.” (30:32-30:59)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, um. First of all, I don’t want to be critical or negative, and I hope that maybe even the way we interact on this on can um, a graceful way to set the beginning of an example for people to disagree. Um, I would say, uh, one of the primary issues of the trinity in the bible and the resurrection of Jesus and the forgiveness of sin and those close-handed matters, you and I agree.” (31:01-31:23)

Brian Houston: “Uh-uh!” (31:24-31:24)

Mark Driscoll: “On the secondary matters, they’re not unimportant but people who are going to heaven uh- disagree on those matters, this may be one that we do. I would say that uh- um- the culture at Mars Hill would have been different and better with the increased involvement of Godly women. And I think uh, at least what I have learnt today is. Uh, I believe in male and female ministry and that men and women are created equal and likeness and image of God. That they receive all of the spiritual gifts. And that when it comes to governance, in the home, a man the husband is supposed to be the humble, sacrificial Christ-like leader of the home. And then his wife and him walk together like a right hand and a left hand, complimenting one-another. And then in the church, I would feel comfortable with male governance, with male and female ministry. Um, and that being said-” (31:25-32:24)

Brian Houston: “So by male/female ministry works for certain people, what does that mean..?” (32:25-32:29)

Mark Driscoll: “Leading worship, being on staff, going to seminary, umm… serving communion and baptizing-“ (32:29-32:34)

Brian Houston: “So where’s the barriers?” (32:34-32:35)

Mark Driscoll: “I would say governance. And really what we’re down to there Brian, uh I don’t want to do this on camera I want to do this privately I’m enough of a nerd I would [Inaudible]. It comes down to like 1 Timothy 2 the second half, you know, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man and then it goes into 1 Timothy 3 where it talks about an elder. And uh, what we’re down to there is a bible study about how would you go with that and how I would go with that. What I would say, however, is uh, I don’t feel that it is my position to critique you, it is not my position to correct you. Um, if anything, I want to come into different families of churches to learn and not to argue. And to see the areas that they’re right and I’m wrong and the areas that they can teach me where I can grow, and that has not been largely my disposition up till the point. It’s been more “I’m here to teach, and I’m here to correct, I’m not here to learn and I’m not here to be corrected.” And if there’s a way for me to not violate my conscience and my convictions while also not separating my relationships I’m hoping to get to a point of doing, um, better. I’m a guy whose had a tremendous failure and it’s not looking to tell everyone else how to do it right I don’t think I have the right I don’t think I have the authority I would feel comfortable with male governance, with male and female ministry. And, yeah, and as long as the people involved are Godly I think that the details will get sorted out in the context of relationships. Alright I really appreciate this opportunity, and you probably thought I’m come out and fight you, I, I just-“ (32:35-34:25)

Brian Houston: “No I didn’t know, I probably wouldn’t have asked the question if I didn’t think you the second half of the question if [Inaudible] were in the fighting mood at all. But uh, you’re a very bright man, and I mean that, you’re very bright, you have a very sharp intellect. When I first met you you were like Google. You knew more about Australia than I do. And Sydney than I do, so I understand that you’re a learning person. I’m a simple man, so let me ask you-“ (34:24-34:46)

Mark Driscoll: “I’m an unemployed guy, so.” (34:47-34:48) [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “Let me ask you one more thing, that’s good, I like it. Just from a very simple point of view, but I kinda grew up being taught that women would be silent in church that we had a situation where the men sat on one side of the church and the women sat on the other side. While the men were conducting the very spiritual business of church, the women were, you know, if I were to exaggerate a little, submitting and talking and chatting. And that’s kind of how I was taught that you would sit totally different.” (34:50-35:22)

Mark Driscoll: “That sits totally different with me. I, I don’t wanna put my wife on the spot but we’ve raised, we have five kids our oldest is a girl. Leader, driver, um, led mission trips, raising money for international relief traveling, um, she’s a great writer.” (35:23-35:42)

Grace Driscoll: “She’s using her gifts. And we’re not holding her back from what that looks like.” (35:43-35:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, she won the principle’s leadership award and we hung out with the principle and she may have been the only female in the history of the school to win the award at least in the last 20 years and so-“ (35:46-35:55)

Grace Driscoll: “But it’s again it’s a condition of the heart. Her desires are not to impress men and women, they’re to serve the Lord. And if that’s in mind there’s a lot of things women can do, if that’s not in mind there’s a lot of things men and women can’t do.” (35:55-36:09)

Mark Driscoll: “So I guess we needed to delve details into what we talked about earlier like what’s a father’s heart. And I wanna have a heart for the women that in the future that allow me to be their pastor that I had for my daughters, and that is if they have leadership gifts and are called from God and they’re Godly I want to help them achieve that potential and encourage and nourish that and be a support for that.” (36:11-36:34)

Brian Houston: “So when in Australia your visits started to rise to the floor in secular Australia that word misogynistic. Uh, started being thrown around fairly liberally. I looked it up in the Oxford Dictionary and it says, “dislike of, contempt for, or engrained prejudice against women.” Are you, were you ever misogynist?” (35:35-36:55)

Mark Driscoll: “No, but because of things I have said foolishly, that impression is entirely my fault, and I have no one to blame but myself. That’s now how I feel, that’s not what I think, um, but for certain, have uh, allowed that to become an impression.” (36:56-37:15)

Brian Houston: “Sure, and those are things you said when you were in your late 20’s.” (37:16-37:18)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, and I have a heart to see, part of this Pastor Brian is, young men aren’t going to church, young men aren’t going to college, young men aren’t marrying women young, young men are not raising their children, and I have such a deep burden and passion to see men. You know, 1 Corinthians 13 when I was a child I thought like a child I spoke like a child I acted like a child, when I became a man I put childish ways behind me. I want to compel young men to grow up to take responsibility and sometimes in doing that I have communicated that in a way that demeans women and that’s not helpful and that’s not right and in the grace of God I need to repent and do better at that. But I still want, I mean no one would say that young men are in the western world highly impressive and we’re all encouraged. There’s a lot of work to be done. And so, I regret the times that I have not communicated in such a way trying to compel them and up and it seems I’m pushing the women down and that’s my fault.” (37:19-38:20)

Brian Houston: “That’s how you feel. You can change moving forward?” (38:21-38:23)

Mark Driscoll: “I hope to with the Grace of God yeah, absolutely.” (38:24-38:27)

Brian Houston: “Good.” (38:28)

Grace Driscoll: “I mean, I’ve never seen him as a misogynist, and never even thought that him of that at all. So, I’ve witnessed the opposite and so, and I’ve known him 27 years And so I can say yes there were methods that were wrong in the beginning but I knew his heart.” (38:29-38:46)

Brain Houston: “I know you’ve tried to apologize a lot of times, I’ve heard some of that myself. Um, it seems there’s a lot of people who just aren’t prepared to accept for his apologies. Do you feel like maybe it was too little too late when it came to apologizing?” (38:47-39:03)

Mark Driscoll: “That’s a good question I don’t know. Um, you know I had someone in the middle of this say. I wrote it in my journal so I wouldn’t forget it it says, it’s never the wrong time to do the right thing. And uh, yeah I don’t know if I’m going to place it I have a great answer for it, I think I’m in the process of processing and praying with wise council. Kind of revisiting the 18 years of my life and trying to learn from it all, yeah.” (39:06-39:31)

Brian Houston: “So in your resignation letter, you you detailed, I feel that about, mistakes you had made and offenses that you had caused. And did you feel like that was received by people?” (39:32-39:44)

Mark Driscoll: “I never got to say goodbye to the church and to the people, um, and so what went public was uh, actually the resignation letter that went to the legal governing board that was in authority over me. Um, and so, um, I uh, I know under the circumstances that there wasn’t a way to do that would’ve been clean or easy. I don’t have any criticism of the board. I think for the people it, it meant there wasn’t closure and I didn’t, we didn’t get to say anything. And so, we didn’t expect to resign I met with the board there was a whole list of things that were charged by current former leaders and there was an internal governance struggle, and threats of legal action, and it got very complicated. And a lot of it was anonymous and through the internet so you don’t know who’s saying or doing what. And so I invited the board to do a full examination interview anybody anything, and we would submit to whatever verdict that they determined. Um, and when I think about 8 weeks we met Friday and Saturday, October 10th and 11th, I remember because the 11th was my birthday. And so Grace and I were present with the Lord. And they said, uh, we see in your history of leadership less in more recent years, more particularly in the past, pride, anger, and domineering leadership style. That would be the three exact words they used. We don’t see anything disqualifying, these are areas we want you to grow, we want you to return to leadership of the church soon. They wanted to do some clean up internally. We want you back on January 4th in the pulpit give you time to heal things to cool down and for some changes to be made. We agreed to that. I sent in a go forward plan and then we went home to have birthday cake with the kids. Um, I think it was on Monday night I was in the bedroom Grace was in the living room and so we had told the board and told the kids you know, come back and was done preaching and love and serve and fix what was a struggling church. And uh, and God had provided a way for us to do that as volunteers and so I was to come back as volunteers. And then on that Monday night I was in the bedroom and Grace was in the living room. And um, he spoke to me and he spoke to her in a supernatural way that neither of us anticipated or expected. And so Grace walked in and she said, “I feel like the Lord just spoke to me and said what we were supposed to do.” And I was like, “I thought the Lord just spoke to me and said what we were supposed to do.” It’s not what we wanted, it’s not what we agreed to, it’s not what we planned for, and so I asked her well what did the Lord say to you because I didn’t want to influence her and so she said, uh, she said we’re” (39:45-42:42)

Grace Driscoll: “We’re released.” (42:43)

Brian Houston: “We can take a moment.” (42:52)

Mark Driscoll: “So, she said well what have you heard so I can hear it. “Well the Lord revealed to me that, you know, a trap has been set there’s no way in which to return to leadership.” And I didn’t know what that meant or what was going on at the time. And um, I said, he said well release too we need to resign. And so, um, you know, this is not what we anticipated, and uh a lot of people thought you know, maybe he’s got another plan, or, we didn’t. We didn’t know what we were doing. And Grace fell to the floor and she was just sobbing uncontrollably and I’ve never seen my wife like that she was devastated. Um, so we prayed and slept on it decided that we would make sure we got this right, and uh.”

Grace Driscoll: “Speak with wise council.”

Mark Driscoll: “Sought the pastors of those we trust and sent in our resignation in on that, it would’ve been that Tuesday, yeah, and resigned.” (42:53-43:57)

Brian Houston: “So there is a lot of grief, uh, delusion of the church [Inaudible]” (43:58-44:00)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, and, for the people, you know, who. I mean it was a great honor to be their pastor for 18 years. And uh, amazing to see 10,000 people baptized, and people married and kids born, and people helped and healed out to see churches get planted. And mean that was, it’s, it’s, there was a lot of joy and a lot of gratitude. But, um, but also just uh, for the people in the church who have been hurt, and uh, some have scattered, and not attending church, and, that’s the part as a pastor that’s devastating.” (44:01-44:43)

Brian Houston: “Yes, yeah, it’s always the fallout.” (44:44-44:45)

Mark Driscoll: “Yup… Yeah…” (44:46-44:48)

Brian Houston: “Well I guess we can all believe that God’s our restorer and he’ll work in each of those people and bring them back to a place of wholeness.” (44:49-44:57)

Grace Driscoll: “They’re still his people, the way he’s got to minister to them.” (44:58-45:01)

Brian Houston: “So understanding, um, that you’re not trying to defend you know I totally understand you’re not trying to defend your actions or anything that relates to your leadership. But are there any particular things that were said that were just so untrue and just so hurtful that you would like to mention them?” (45:02-45:22)

Mark Driscoll: “I would like to, but, yeah, [Whispering] I don’t want to. In this, my, my, and I appreciate you hearing me Pastor Brian, in all honesty my goal in all of this is not to win, and so,” (45:25-45:44) [Applause]

Brian Houston: “Well that’s a good answer. [Inaudible] hold your piece.” (45:47-45:52)

Mark Driscoll: “And and I am not good at holding my peace, but I believe that that would be, um, I believe that would be best for the Gospel.” (45:52-46:00)

Brian Houston: “We believe you’re getting better at it, at holding your piece. [Laughter] So from the whole thing experience that would last 1-4 years, what if you had to bring in 3 to 5 key lessons that you’ve learned what would they be?” (46:01-46:22)

Mark Driscoll: “Oh boy. I mean that’s a, yeah, I’m not very good with short. [Laughter] Um, it was a tremendous honor to be a pastor and to teach the Bible. And um, to have the things that God did are remarkable and God works through his people. And so, I have come to more than ever be grateful for the 18 years that I got to serve, for the opportunities I got to teach and the things I got to see God do through his good people. Um, and so just a deeper appreciation for the people of God and for the grace that we enjoy. I mean very genuinely. Number 2 I’m exceedingly grateful for my wife. I know I have a wonderful woman but the fact that she’s still with me and my dearest friend and loving and gracious and confronts me and is a truth teller in a loving way. Um, so, I just publicly want to thank you. I mean, she’s the best and I’m really blessed to have her so thank you, [Applause] and um, and faith that we don’t know what’s next. We, people have, you know, speculated, I don’t know. I would like to teach the Bible and love people what that looks like we don’t know. And I’m a planner and a driver. And and right now, um, you know, the plan is to seek wise council, to not get ahead of the Lord, to not rush like I did the first time.”

Grace Driscoll: “To wait in line.”

Mark Driscoll: “To wait in line and not try to prove myself or have my comeback, I, I really, I really am not motivated that way at present. And so it’s just sticking close to Jesus, and to Grace, and the kids. And as we have opportunity thanking the people that were really wonderful for us and then waiting to see what the Lord has next.” (46:23-48:15)

Brian Houston: “My last question really was along those lines it’s, what now?” (48:16-48:19)

Mark Driscoll: “I don’t know, I mean this would be the time I would tell you my next thing and it’s the public launch, and I don’t know. We’re going to go home, and kiss the kids and pray and see what’s next. Yeah, um, I hope to teach the Bible, yeah.” (48:22-48:35)

Brian Houston: “Well I personally think that you’re anointed to do so.” (48:36-40)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you.” (48:40-48:41)

Brian Houston: “Yeah you’re an outstanding teacher. I’ve already told you we’re probably a little different on some things. But, you know, I personally find your teaching very stimulating and very, very powerful. And I know a lot of people even in my team do as well. So personally I think you should do some teaching again, and my personal feeling for you is to see you flourish in ministry and have your best days ahead of you. [Applause]

And I guess it’s [Inaudible] restitution with individuals as well as collectively and corporately. And- you know endings always- good endings help good beginnings. Bad endings don’t have good beginnings. So I guess if I could- uh- be- uh- officious enough to offer counsel. I would say, just be sure that- you know- you really have done all that you can to heal people, the past, heal up yourselves, stay with good counsel like you are, moving to all that God’s got ahead for you. I’m a great believer that the best is yet to come. And I’d love to speak that over both your lives. I pray in Jesus name that the best is yet to come- and that’s in every way. [Applause] I have found [Inaudible] so let’s believe in God for that together. In Jesus name.” (48:40-50:10)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you pastor Brian. Thank you for giving us an opportunity.” (50:11-50:15)

Brian Houston: “Thanks for giving me the honor in asking you the questions. I- uh- really, I think I asked you some of the tough questions. I am sure there would be some people who would think that the questions should have been tougher. But- uh- I know, I know, Pastor Mark and Grace, there are a lot of people out there who want good for you in the future. And [Inaudible], just like all of us, that you learn from your past.” (50:16-50:38)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.” (50:40-50:44)

Brian Houston: “Great.” (50:45-50:55)

[INTERVIEW ENDS] [Applause]

Brian Houston: “Thank you! We had great conversation. We actually talked for um, an hour and fifty three minutes. So that is cut down to just over forty five minutes. I think fifty. Fifty minutes. But the entire interview is an hour and fifty three minutes. So once we get past Hillsong Europe, Hillsong London Conference, we may put excerpts of all the interview, the rest of the interview, uh, so up on to the web as well.

And uh- when we had that conversation it was a really powerful conversation. I could feel the power of God in the room. And so, it was an honor [inaudible] to uh, have the opportunity to talk so frankly and so boldly to- to Mark. And ah- you know, as grace-filled Christians, let’s just believe in the best of them both.

Everyone’s made mistakes as leaders. I’ve made plenty of mistakes. If I’d been held in to all of my mistakes, I’d probably be out of my church too. But thank God I had kinder more to gentle people in our church who uh, turned one blind eye and kept loving me.

So fantastic.” (51:11-52:20)

Source: Hillsong Conference 2015, Interview aired 30/06/2015.

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Royal Commission 01: The Submission – AOG/ACC & Hillsong Exposed

21 Sunday Jun 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Royal Commission Hearing

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ACC, AOG, Brian, Brian Houston, CLC, Hillsong, houston, Royal Commission, submission

The Royal Commission has exposed in case study 18: conflict of interest, shortcomings and mismanagement by the AOG/ACC executive and its then President, Brian Houston, when handling the Frank Houston child sex abuse allegations.

The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse - Case Study 18: a public hearing concerned with the institutional response to child sexual abuse of the Australian Christian Churches (ACC) and its affiliated churches.

The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse – Case Study 18: a public hearing concerned with the institutional response to child sexual abuse of the Australian Christian Churches (ACC) and its affiliated churches.

They ignored policy and procedure and as a result of the public hearing, the Royal Commission submission has recommended Brian Houston be referred to the NSW Police.

This article is part of a series that looks at the AOG’s and Brian Houston’s response in light of the Royal Commission submissions. Of particular interest is:

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Hillsong’s influence with influential people: “Brian Houston, is one of [Scott] Morrison’s mentors”

28 Saturday Feb 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Associations

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Brian, Brian Houston, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, mentor, Morrison, Scott, Scott Morrison, Shirelive

The Monthly reports,

SCOTT MORRISON: SO WHO THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU?

In a country that has always exhibited a fickle streak towards foreigners heading for its shores, Scott Morrison is especially well credentialed to speak on the subject of his shadow portfolio, immigration. The Liberal politician who has spent much of the past 18 months regurgitating the phrase ‘stop the boats’ was also the managing director of Tourism Australia, who asked the rest of the world: ‘Where the bloody hell are you?’ The member for Cook, who counts Desmond Tutu and the anti-slavery campaigner William Wilberforce among his heroes, reportedly argued in shadow cabinet that the Liberals should exploit community concerns about Muslim immigrants.

The man who attests that his faith has imbued him with “the values of loving kindness, justice and righteousness” also tried to make political hay when relatives of asylum seekers killed in the boat tragedy off Christmas Island in December 2010 were flown at taxpayers’ expense to attend their loved ones’ funerals in Sydney. The Scott Morrison who claims that deterring boat people from ever embarking on the hazardous journey across the Indian Ocean offers the most humane and Christian approach is also the Scott Morrison whose incessant politicisation of the issue has made compromise so difficult. “There is nothing to negotiate,” he said after a vessel carrying 250 asylum seekers sank off the coast of Java in December, adding glibly that Labor had “super-sized” the problem by releasing boat people into the community.

During his maiden speech to parliament in February 2008, Morrison quoted Bono as he made an impassioned appeal for more aid to Africa – hardly a hot-button issue for his constituents in Cronulla. His first words in the chamber acknowledged the Gweagal people of the Dharawal nation, the traditional owners of the land now occupied by his parliamentary seat. Admirers describe him as compassionate, personable, moral and extremely able. Critics take a wholly different view, calling him arrogant, over-ambitious and bullying. “It is impossible to talk about Scott Morrison,” says one, “without dropping the C-bomb.” So with the 43 year old spoken of as a possible future Liberal leader, Australians could be forgiven for asking: ‘Who the bloody hell are you?’

*

Scott Morrison was born in Bronte in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, now one of the richest enclaves of the country’s richest parliamentary constituency. His family background, however, could hardly be described as part of the elite. Rather, it was strongly Christian and communitarian. His father, John, was a police commander who founded the local Boys Brigade in Bondi Junction, played rugby for Randwick and was an active member of the local RSL. John Morrison was also politically active, serving 16 years on the local council as an Independent and becoming the mayor of Waverley in the mid 1980s. His son’s first political act came at the age of nine, when he handed out how-to-vote cards on behalf of his father.

Scott was an active member of the Uniting Church in Bondi Junction, where his father says he became “a dedicated Christian”. Like his parents, he threw himself into a range of activities – rugby, music, rowing and drama. “He was well liked, a very personable chap,” recalls Reverend Ray Green, who knew him as a child. “He was definitely a leader. People used to follow him around. He was also liked by the girls. There were quite a few in the Girls Brigade who thought he was the ant’s pants.” He met his future wife, Jenny, at church, aged just 12. She had grown up in the St George area of south Sydney, solid battler territory, and used to tease Scott about coming from the posh side of town.

From early on, Scott and his elder brother Alan were instilled with a strong sense of community service (Alan Morrison is now a superintendent in the NSW ambulance service). Scott is a muscular Christian in his father’s mould, and in his zero-tolerance approach towards border protection, perhaps there is something of the police commander as well. Neither did it come as a complete surprise to learn that his bloodline reaches back to Northern Ireland. Whenever I have encountered Scott Morrison, he has reminded me of the Orangemen I used to run into in Belfast, who marched in their tangerine V-shaped collarettes to the thumping beat of the Lambeg drum. Typically they were genial men, of ’50s-era sensibilities, who were prone to defensiveness and flashes of anger on the thorny subject of the border.

Morrison is now a Pentecostal and thus part of the most rapidly growing denomination in the land. He worships at an American-style mega-church called Shirelive in his constituency, where the gospel of prosperity is preached in an auditorium that can accommodate over 1000 evangelicals. With its water baptisms and designer-shirt pastors, Shirelive has close ties with the better-known Hillsong community. The founder of Hillsong, Harley Davidson–riding pastor Brian Houston, is one of Morrison’s mentors. In Who’s Who Morrison lists the church as his number one hobby, and his maiden speech reads in part like a personal testimony delivered on the last night of a church retreat. It included passages from Jeremiah and also the Book of Joel: “Your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.”

A test of his faith came during the period when he and his wife were trying to start a family. It involved repeated courses of IVF treatment and “14 years of bitter disappointments”, but Scott and Jenny were buoyed by their sense of the providential. “God remembered her faithfulness,” recalled Morrison during his maiden speech, as he paid tribute to his wife, “and blessed us with our miracle child, Abbey Rose.” The couple now have two daughters.

While his faith animates his politics, he is on the record as saying “the Bible is not a policy handbook, and I get very worried when people try to treat it like one”. Critics would say that is self-evident from his heartless response to asylum seekers. “I wonder how you can claim to be a serious Christian and take these positions,” said one former colleague. Supporters, however, claim he has pursued a faith-based policy. “He’s a very ethical and moral man,” says a fellow Liberal. “Stopping the boats is ethical and moral.” In his response to December’s boat people tragedy off Java, he advocated a ‘tough love’ policy, which he claimed had the safety of boat people at its heart. After all, for Morrison the Pacific Solution was not only efficient but righteous since it crushed the evil of people smuggling. Church friends might even have seen shades of Wilberforce in his efforts to eradicate such a nefarious trade. To his critics, however, his attacks on the government, which resumed 48 hours after the overloaded boat capsized, offered yet more proof of his harrying opportunism: this was more about political point-scoring than finding a workable solution.

School for Scott Morrison was Sydney Boys High, one of the best in the public sector, while his student years were spent at the University of New South Wales studying economics and geography. That led to jobs in a number of industry groups, including the Property Council of Australia and what was then known as the Tourism Task Force (now the Tourism and Transport Forum). He served as the number two at the TTF before jumping ship to its main rival, Tourism Council Australia. Afterwards, the TTF changed its employment contracts to prevent others from “doing a Morrison”.

When the New Zealand government wanted to set up an Office of Tourism and Sport, it turned to Morrison. Across the ditch, he was associated with the highly acclaimed ‘100% Pure New Zealand’ campaign, but also drew fire from Labor MPs for being the political placeman of the country’s then tourism minister and now foreign affairs minister, Murray McCully. The New Zealand Herald dubbed him McCully’s “hard man”. When McCully resigned his portfolio in 1999, over a scandal involving “golden handshakes” to tourism board members who had resisted his heavy-handed interference, Morrison lost his chief political sponsor. So with a year still left on his contract, he returned to Sydney in March 2000, where he took up a position as the state director of the NSW Liberal Party.

Party chieftains deemed Morrison’s four-year tenure an outstanding success. Though he could never dislodge the state Labor government from power, he revitalised the party machine, and helped the Coalition gain three federal seats from Labor in New South Wales at the 2001 federal election. John Howard said he had never seen the state party better organised.

His reward came after the 2004 federal election, when the Coalition needed a chief executive to head its newly created tourism body, Tourism Australia. In a move that reeked of political cronyism, Joe Hockey, the then tourism minister, gave Morrison the $350,000-a-year post. His reign at Tourism Australia lives in the memory for the troubled ‘Where the bloody hell are you?’ campaign that ran afoul of the British advertising regulator. Fran Bailey, Hockey’s successor as tourism minister, even had to make an emergency trip to London to cajole the British into overturning their ban amid grumbles from her ministry that a closer reading of UK regulations would have alerted Tourism Australia to the problem. Eventually, the campaign worked well in the US, UK and German markets, partly because the controversy surrounding the use of the word ‘bloody’ delivered a bonanza of free publicity. It flopped, however, in Asia, and especially the all-important Japanese market, where the slogan was unfathomable.

Something of a bureaucratic black belt from his days in New Zealand, Morrison also fought running battles with Tourism Australia’s nine-strong board. Its members complained that he did not heed advice, withheld important research data about the controversial campaign, was aggressive and intimidating, and ran the government agency as if it were a one-man show. But Morrison thought he had the upper hand. Confident that John Howard would ultimately back him, Morrison reportedly boasted that if Fran Bailey got in his way, he would bring her down. When board members called for him to go, however, Bailey agreed, and soon it was Morrison who was on his way. “Fran despised him,” says an industry insider. “Her one big win was ousting Scott. His ego went too far.” Another senior industry figure claims that it was Morrison’s arrogance, combined with his misreading of John Howard and the power dynamics of Canberra, that proved his undoing: “He was naive to think he could take on the politicians. Howard was always going to back his ministers.” The “agreed separation” was said to have pocketed him at least a $300,000 payout.

Afterwards, Morrison was given a stopgap role as the “minder” for the then NSW Liberal leader Peter Debnam in the run-up to the 2007 state election. During the campaign, Debnam sported his budgie smugglers at Bondi with such pride that his early morning appearances could easily have been mistaken for a tourism advertisement. Yet even Morrison’s famed organisational skills could not stop Labor from winning in a canter.

Soon Morrison turned his attention to getting himself a seat in federal parliament, and eyed up the safe seat of Cook, which encompasses the Sutherland Shire or ‘God’s Country’, as locals prefer to call it. His friend Bruce Baird, who had been seen as too much of a ‘wet’ by John Howard to be entrusted with a ministry, had decided to step down rather than face what looked like being a nasty challenge from the right of his party. Sure enough, it turned out to be one of the most vituperative preselection campaigns in NSW history, with the right and left factions waging an internecine war. Morrison was not backed by either side – Bruce Baird remained neutral – and he finished a long way back on the first ballot, receiving just eight votes.

Michael Towke, a Lebanese Christian from the right faction, won. Four days later, amid allegations of branch stacking, Towke became the victim of a smear campaign, with a series of damaging personal stories leaked to the Daily Telegraph (after mounting a legal fight, News Limited offered him an out-of-court settlement). There were dark mutterings, as well, that a Lebanese Australian could never win a seat that had recently witnessed the Cronulla riot. The upshot of the smear campaign was that the NSW state executive refused to endorse Towke’s nomination, and demanded a second ballot. The beneficiary was Scott Morrison, a cleanskin in the factional fight, who was parachuted in as a unity candidate. So it is a mistake to presume Morrison is simply an ideal Sutherland Shire man. Local party members initially rejected him, partly because he was considered insufficiently right wing.

Preselection at the second time of asking brought with it the prospect of a safe Liberal seat. In the 2007 election, Scott Morrison was duly elected as the member for Cook, the point of arrival for the first boat people in the history of modern Australia: the crew of the HMS Endeavour.

*

Scott Morrison presented himself as a Liberal moderate in his first speech to parliament. Not only did he acknowledge the traditional owners, honour Desmond Tutu and William Wilberforce, quote Bono and pay tribute to Bruce Baird, he made reference to Kevin Rudd’s national apology to Indigenous Australians that had brought the chamber to its feet the previous day. “There is no doubt that our Indigenous population has been devastated by the inevitable clash of cultures that came with the arrival of the modern world in 1770 at Kurnell in my electorate,” he noted, and proclaimed himself “proud” of the national apology. Much of the speech could easily have been penned by Malcolm Fraser. His father, John, reckons it reveals the true Scott Morrison: “That speech says what he is and the way he thinks.”

So obviously an up-and-comer, Morrison did not remain on the Opposition backbench for long. Malcolm Turnbull, recognising a fellow traveller from the moderate wing of the party, elevated him to the shadow ministry as the spokesman for housing and local government in 2008. But it was the immigration portfolio handed to him by Tony Abbott in 2009 that provided the vehicle for his rise to prominence.

As the party lurched to the right under the leadership of Abbott, so too did Morrison, and the tourism marketeer proved himself an adept political sloganeer. Gone now was the antipodean Wilberforce of his freshman speech. Instead, he cast himself as a central figure in the Liberal fight-back, much to the annoyance of longbeards in the party who grumbled that he was a first-termer in too much of a hurry. “Supreme opportunism,” scoffed one senior Liberal when I asked about the one-time moderate’s confrontational approach on asylum seekers.

The more publicity that came Scott Morrison’s way, the more hardline he became. So much so that last February, on the morning when victims of the Christmas Island boat people tragedy were due to be buried in Sydney, he launched an ill-tempered attack on the government for paying for family members to make the long journey from Christmas Island. Among them was Madian El Ibrahimy, a detainee at the Indian Ocean detention centre, whose wife, Zman, four-year-old son, Nzar, and eight-month-old daughter, Zahra, had all died at sea. “Do you think you run the risk of being seen as heartless on the day of these funerals to be saying — to be bickering over this money?” asked ABC reporter Barbara Miller, whose report that morning was broadcast on AM. Morrison replied: “When it comes to the question of do I think this is a reasonable cost then my honest answer is, ‘No, I don’t think it is reasonable.’” Seasoned commentators struggled to recall a nastier instance of gutter politics from a senior politician since the heyday of Pauline Hanson. Labor accused him of “stealing soundbites from One Nation”.

Seemingly blindsided, Tony Abbott gave the remarks a lukewarm endorsement when he appeared on Andrew Bolt’s MTR radio program later that morning. “It does seem a bit unusual that the government is flying people to funerals,” said Abbott, though he cushioned his response with genuine sympathy for the survivors. Instead, it was left to Joe Hockey to condemn the remarks: “I would never seek to deny a parent or a child from saying goodbye to their relative.” Then came an acid shower of criticism from party elders. John Hewson called his comments “inhumane”. Malcolm Fraser was scornful: “I hope Scott Morrison is just a fringe element in the party.” More woundingly, Bruce Baird also slapped down his one-time protégé: “I’m very disappointed that Scott would make those comments. It is lacking in compassion at the very time when these people have been through such a traumatic event.”

Morrison also enraged certain members of the shadow cabinet, some of whom seemingly thought he was trying to grandstand his way towards seniority, and then the leadership. At least one exacted revenge by providing damaging leaks from a shadow cabinet meeting the previous December. Chairing the meeting in Tony Abbott’s absence, Julie Bishop had opened up a discussion on which issues should be prioritised in the new year. “What are we going to do about multiculturalism?” Morrison was reported as saying. “What are we going to do about concerns about the number of Muslims?” Morrison later noted: “The gossip reported does not reflect my views,” which fell short of an outright denial.

Morrison declined an invitation to contribute to this profile, but during a lengthy interview on ABC’s Sunday Profile with the journalist Julia Baird, daughter of Bruce, he spoke more about the Christmas Island tragedy. He explained how he regretted the timing of his comments – it was “a very insensitive time for me to have made those remarks” – but not their content. Revealingly, he also recalled how the weekend before, during one of his regular consultations in Cronulla Mall, two pensioners had complained about government waste, and how they themselves no longer felt valued: “And every time they saw money particularly being spent in this area or in the blow-out in costs in [dealing with] asylum seekers and others it really, really offended them.” Here was populism in one of its most unfiltered forms, for Morrison seemed to be suggesting that he was merely a mouthpiece for these elderly constituents. It was not so much a case of dog-whistle politics as megaphone politics.

His comments also provide another vital clue for his lurch to the right: what might be called ‘the Shire factor’. Morrison no doubt recalls how he was rejected in the first round of preselection, and also that the right-wing candidate who beat him, Michael Towke, still controls many of the local branches. What better way for a first-termer to shore up support in Cronulla than to champion the issue of border protection?

Perhaps Scott Morrison entered parliament imagining a very different career, where the nobler instincts of his maiden speech would define his politics. However, the gusto with which he has assailed the government over asylum seekers suggests that his decision to adopt such a hardline stance was morally uncomplicated. He, no doubt, would claim it is simply moral. The boat people issue, where his ambitions and survival instincts intersect, has both advanced his career in Canberra and consolidated his position in Cook. He has become a creature of the capital’s hyper-adversarialism and also of his Cronulla constituents’ parochialism. So while this eastern-suburbs native may not be a product of the Sutherland Shire, he may have become its captive. For Scott Morrison, it is not only a question of how he will be judged by God, but also by ‘God’s country’.

Source: By Nick Bryant, SCOTT MORRISON: SO WHO THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU?, The Monthly, http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2012/february/1328593883/nick-bryant/so-who-bloody-hell-are-you, ??/02/2012. (Accessed 28/02/2015.)

Brian Houston: sins of my father….

24 Wednesday Sep 2014

Posted by Nailed Truth in Sermons

≈ 10 Comments

Tags

Brian, Brian Houston, Frank, Frank Houston, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, hillsong conference, Hillsong Conference 2014, Hillsong Conference session, scandal, session

Recently the Sydney Morning Herald reported that Hillsong was under scrutiny by the royal commission over child sex abuse.

The Hillsong cult under scrutiny…

Early this year, Brian Houston shared the following about his dad’s sexual offenses at Hillsong Conference 2014:

SOME OBSERVATIONS

1. Don’t cover up things that can’t be covered up?

This was a bit of odd advice that Houston gave in this session about “manning up” when facing tough times in church leadership:

“In this whole subject of manning up, don’t be tempted to cover things up that can’t be covered up; it’s never going to do you any good.” [Source]

And yes, it appears the context around this quote was how he dealt with his father’s sexual failure.

2. Things he didn’t teach when things went wrong…

When things do go wrong he didn’t talk about scriptures on discipline, restoration or reconciliation. There was no mention of seeking God in times of crisis. Maybe this is a given?

3. No empathy for the victims?

We understand how hard it would be for Brian to deal with his dad’s sinful behaviour and the hurt it caused the victims, Brian, his family and his church.

However, it was noticeable in his retelling of the events that he paid very little attention to the victims of Frank Houston. Instead, Brian Houston talked all about his own pain. (And to an extent, fair enough.) We can only read into what Brian Houston addressed here. He may have really addressed their issues personally, thoughtfully and professionally.

We wonder at this point if reconciliation seriously took place at all. If it did take place, this would have been a wonderful opportunity for Brian Houston to teach how biblical repentance and reconciliation can take place in the body of Christ. Oddly, this is absent.

The victim’s were mentioned in this retelling in such a way that it seemed as though nothing happened for them. Hopefully all things ended well for them.

4. Brian Houston’s view of God’s sheep?

For leaders in the church dealing with hard issues, Brian Houston used the passage, ‘be wise as serpents and harmless as doves‘.

However, Jesus said, “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.” (Matt 10:16.)

Dear Brian – sheep aren’t wolves. Why do you have that view (and why do you think other leaders should have that view) of their sheep? Or maybe sheep in your church started alerting others that you are the wolf in sheeps clothing? This is quite the confession you made in this session:

“We’re not just manipulative and controlling and trying to contrive situations. You receiving this?”

If you are a sheep in Hillsong, receive the Matt 10:16 advice from Brian Houston. Be wise as serpents and start discerning who is leading you astray.

6. Where is the gospel and redemption when the times get tough?

It was sad to hear that when Brian Houston went through this dark time, he didn’t give mention of anyone coming to him with the gospel. Nor did he mention the gospel at all when he went through any scandal or bad church experience. He needed it more than anyone else in that time of pain.

This would be torturous in this type of false ministry. If you are a false teacher preaching a false gospel, who can comfort you in your moment of absolute darkness if all those around you believe your false gospel? He’s a victim of his own false teaching.

If anyone could have pulled Brian Houston out of his pain, it could have been Jesus and His cross. (Notice how Jesus isn’t Brian Houston’s saviour in any of his experiences.) He went through his pain alone. All he could offer people at Hillsong Conference was his worldly wisdom.

No cross. No Christ. No redemption.

This is a tragedy for Brian Houston, Hillsong and unrepentant sin’s many victims. Please pray for them.

============================

TRANSCRIPT

“Well I enjoy these sessions when we get to talk practically about the Church and speak specifically to leaders in all areas of church life, just about the church so in this session this year let’s talk church leadership.

And today where you can see we are loading up our little studio audience here, and ah these guys [glitch] with all the leadership pastors, many of them, most of them I think and all of them in their own way at different times have had to negotiate seasons of real crisis, real pain and I thought it would be great to talk about some of those things and just find out how people have navigated some of those challenges, some of those things and hopefully there’s something in it for everyone to learn from.

So I just wanted to start, if you want to take notes, if you want to write something at the top of your page perhaps, just write ahh ‘leading and navigating, seasons of crisis’ or ‘navigating and leading through seasons of crisis’. That’s what we are talking about.

I think in life, especially as faith people, we believe for the best, but let’s be honest we have those days when we hear the worst. And all you have to do to face some very difficult times in life is live long enough. So I sure don’t want this to become a negative session but perhaps I can start by talking about what I would consider probably the worst day in my life so far.

It was in October 1999 and my great offsider George Aghajanian has ahh worked with me for many, many years and every Tuesday, he and I have a meeting. He oversees. He’s the General Manager of Hillsong Church, so globally he oversees all of the administration facilities. He oversees so much of our church. Much of the staff and so many things. He always comes in with this list that he is going to talk to me about and this day in October 1999, that he started going through his list and he said ‘oh there’s just one more thing’ he said ‘it’s not about you, it’s about your father’.

I can kind of remember the blood running out of my face, I kind of didn’t know what to expect, but I could tell by his demeanour that this is not going to be good news. And so he proceeded to tell me how a phone call had come into our church office, just one of our pastors ahhh had answered the phone to a guy who started telling them that he had been ministering at a church and a lady came to the front, I think he had been talking about abuse, the lady came to the front afterwards and said ‘Frank Houston abused my son’.

I couldn’t even begin to tell you what that moment felt like [glitch] I can’t even begin to tell you, it kind of came at me like degrees. First of all I couldn’t get past the fact that he was talking about eh, you know, eh a man a a boy.  And it kind of hit me at degrees, first of all that’s kind of homosexual, then the second thing, that err it was someone underage. This is something that had happened maybe 30 or 40 years before that and it happened when he was a New Zealand pastor.

Umm but for me it just hit me at degrees and to be honest I think I had to deal with it as at those time, at that time I was president of a denomination 1100 plus churches. And I was pastor of a church, of which only 9 months before that we had taken on what was my parents church and it had become a campus of our church, so I also had to negotiate it as, if you like pastor of the church he had pastored for over 20 years. And then of course they had to navigate it and negotiate it as a father. A husband and a father.

Talked to my own kids about their Grandad who to all of us was an absolute hero. And then finally I had to look after myself. The end result was just not so long ago, I’d slowly I was keeping everything going outwardly, but I was slowly decaying inwardly. To the point where two or three years ago I had a panic attack and I was told that I would have them for the rest of my life but I said I don’t think I am ever going to have one of these again, and by God’s grace I never have.

And it took its toll, and as a result of that talking to Doctors I was pretty much told that I had post traumatic stress. So between that and other pressures, many people know the story of some of the, some of the battles we faced with the media in Australia and so on.

So, I think you can look at anyone and think well everything just goes well for these guys, nothing ever, but people want sometimes what you have but they don’t want to know what it takes to get there. And everyone’s got their story and your story may be different to my story. That story went on, I won’t take too much time on it but, maybe twelve or eight- so then I-

By the way I had to confront my own father. Again, hardest day of my life.

I talked to him about this, he had just come back from overseas. In my office, he went all dry in the mouth. You ever talk to your hero and your father about something so horrible and-? He went all dry in the mouth and he confessed that that had happened, all those years before.

So maybe twelve or eighteen months later, a psychologist actually from New Zealand made an appointment to see me. I met him down town and I had a feeling this was going to be bad news as well. And he went on and told me a similar story about when he was fourteen. And so the problem had grown and I- I-I, by God’s grace, in the middle of it was clear enough in my mind to know what I can do and what I can’t do. And everything in you wants to protect your own father. But I did what I had to and took it to our denomination, which I led and they asked me to stand aside from the investigation. And they investigated it fully and ahh- the end result was he never preached, he never ministered, he was never in leadership again.

As a result of that, I’ve got members of my own brothers, of my own family siblings, who to this day don’t talk to me, because they believe I put the church before my father. So, it’s a personal pain and I’m not here to tell you all this to say ‘woe is me’. But I never forget when I talked to each of my kids they all responded differently but in my mind responded so incredibly well. Ben, my second son, just becoming pastor of Hillsong Los Angles, he, he listened carefully, I said ‘Ben I so hope this doesn’t affect your faith’; he would have only been a teenager still. He said, ‘Dad that’s not going to happen, I’ve had my own revelation of Jesus’. I think they were the most golden words at the time, I heard.

So a lot of people knew my father, he blessed a lot of people and to this day, I know thousands of people who only have good memories of him. And err I’m grateful for that. But obviously this caused pain, real pain for real people. There’s victims involved there’s you know, it was horrific.

So I thought I would start there because I, I want this to be a bit of a tender and a bit of a vulnerable moment where we don’t just talk around stuff, but without getting into a pity party, we really, we really talk about stuff and I feel like people respond to pain in different way and as leaders there’s crisis we deal with in a church and then there’s crisis in our own lives, personal and corporate.

So those are the things I just wanted to talk about and I will just take a few minutes and then we are going to really hear the gold from some of these other people here. I will just talk about some of the things I have learned about over the years when it comes to pastoring in crisis. Handling it personally and leading other people in crisis.

Because I’m convinced, and we talked about it briefly with Bill Hybels yesterday, I’m convinced that leadership’s not proven of the good times, anyone can go along for the ride in the good times. I think what’s really in us comes out in the tough times and your leadership is always proven in the tough times.

So just a few thoughts very quickly:

Number one, I think facing crisis, facing pain.

You’ve got to understand that pain has a process.

[words on screen]

“– 1) Understanding the process of pain!!”

And we wish it would go away tomorrow, but often times it’s just not going to go away tomorrow.

The Bible talks quiet often about in the process of time. And if I think about the fact that time has a process within it and we often want to progress out of our challenge without really taking on the process. You know the scripture in Ecclesiastes where everything is a season and time for every purpose under heaven. Well if, if every season has a purpose, sometimes there’s a process for that purpose to be worked out. And I know that we often feel that I can’t see any good purpose in this whatsoever but it’s amazing how God can use anything and everything to take you forwards and actually to make you a better person. Maybe give your ministry a bit more depth.

And so to me the process is very important. Now look at the process of time, there’s different scriptures that talk about it, but in Exodus 2 where err of course Egypt were holding captivity God’s people, they were in bondage and there’s a scripture in Ezekiel 2 that says that the Kind of Egypt died and in the process of time, God heard the people’s cry, saw their burden and deliverance came.

But of course there was the process of time. Don’t’ try to avoid the process of time, cause I think it’s all part of it. And Cain, he did at the end of time what he should have done at the beginning. The bible talks about his brother’s offering that he gave to God and Abel’s offering was of the first fruit, it’s really the first mention in the scriptures of the idea of first fruits, so Abel gave what was first whereas Cain gave in the process of time, so he did at the end what he should have done at the beginning, and it ended up bringing calamity.

And I feel like sometimes we try to procrastinate and leave things off and don’t deal and address things but it can bring calamity. But on the other hand, Hannah she couldn’t have a child, she was desperate, the bible says she was in anguish of heart and she wept and finally it says in the process of time. There it is again, that she had a son called his name Samuel.

So don’t underestimate the importance of the process, let’s be doing at the beginning of the process what needs to be done at the beginning, because it can make the process a whole lot less painful and ultimately it will always bring a better result.

So imagine if in the beginning, I decided I’m going to try and cover this up with my dad. I know right now with where Australia’s at, we wouldn’t even have a church. So you’ve got to sometimes you’ve just got to decide to man up and guts it out, you’ve just got to make the tough decisions.

One of the things I decided was to always try to honour my dad, which not always easy because my dad to me was and to my brother and sister was just an incredible loving, generous man and that’s the person many people knew.

And by the way, that psychologist, he talked to me about disassociation. He was saying the father you knew was your father and this other thing this other part of him was disassociated from the rest of him and that kind of helped me at the time.

But number one, you’ve got to give it the process.

Number two, (if I can just move along here), it’s always good to respond not react.

At Hillsong Church we had a little upset with someone earlier this year and I was talking to Joel A’Bell who’s a great, great err co-worker with Bobbie and I, he and Julia. We were talking about what we need to do and he said ‘make sure that we are responding, not reacting’. And that was the best advice at the time I could have given because by nature I’m a reactionary, you know I could be a volcano. I got much, much better as I got older but that would be my natural, my natural way.

And I think sometimes in life especially –

[glitch]

– came out of positive, I had a desire but obviously it can be very negative. And often times, the things that are our weaknesses, the things that whatever that desire might be for you, it might be to lean toward a ditch, and it might be to do something to that – to build some kind of emotional attachment, do something crazy and it’s your way of coping. And the worst thing you can do often, is isolate yourself. When you feel like having fellowship the least, is often when you need it the most.

So that’s why the bible says in Hebrews Chapter 10, don’t forsake the gathering of the assembling of yourselves together as is the habit of some, ahhh but encourage one another. And you get into a great, positive, faith filled environment where there’s a spirit of encouragement, it’s the best thing you can do. And sadly people in churches, they make the great mistake, when they need it the most of drawing back, isolating themselves, fully cutting everybody out and it’s sad.

David, his most negative Psalm was 142, he says I’ve been brought very low, he says everyone is out to get me, they’ve set a snare for me, no-one really acknowledges me, who really cares for my soul. Those are the things he said, ultimately he says I’ve been brought very low. His dark day, I’ve been brought very low. The next verse, bring my soul out of prison that I may praise your name- Listen to it! “The righteous shall surround me.”

He decided he was going to get amongst crazy people and when we feel like it the least, let’s make sure we get ourselves always into an environment where praise gets our mind off ourselves, it’s impossible to be negative and praise God at exactly the same time. You simply can’t do it! It just doesn’t work! So let’s understand the importance of not isolating ourselves.

And the next thing I think when leading people, let your human side show.

Be transparent but don’t be pitiful, cause there’s a difference. Some people go to water and they become pitiful: “Woe is me!” – negative! But on the other hand some people put all the walls up and pretend nothing’s wrong and you know, ho hum, ra ra, and you know what, that’s not helping either especially if there’s a challenge inside a church because they think you don’t even care about this, you don’t even care! And I think, I think when the time is right and in that process of time, when I’ve had to face big issues in Hillsong Church, (and believe me we’ve had some! And by God’s grace he has brought us through every single one of them), there’s a time when you need to be with yourself a little bit, just have to be a little bit human, a little bit vulnerable.

Us macho Australians, we don’t like doing that sometimes. But I found that if you do that at the right time and you don’t overdo it, people warm to you and rally behind you. Life moves on, which is good, ha ha ha.

So don’t be afraid to be human and eliminate blame and excuses.

Don’t get, don’t get defensive whatever you do.

You know when I ride my motorbike, which is not much these days, I ride it with the attitude any accident that happens is my fault. Cause it’s a motorbike and you don’t get too many second chances. So in other words, whether a guy pulls out of there, whether that happens, whether any accident that happens is my fault. Because that way, I ride in a way that basically is taking responsibility for what that guy might do and what might happen over there, makes me ride my bike different and I think life’s a little bit like that too. You can blame, you can excuse and you can be completely right, obviously some motorbike accident is not technically your fault, you’re not the one the Police are going to book, if your still breathing, it’s not always technically your fault but if you ride that way, I think if you lead that way as well.

Cos blaming and excusing, justified as it might be, it’s actually not helping anything. And so I think lead, always taking accountability, always taking responsibility and say ‘what could I have done different’ ‘what do I need to change’. And again I feel that’s a great way to respond to challenge, to crisis and all of these things.

Number six, focus on the good things.

I’m talking about leading other people and leading yourself. Whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are good, whatsoever are true, whatsoever things are noble, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, think on these things. Think on these things and hang around people who are going to get you thinking on those things. Written by Opposite World Translation. The Opposite World Translation is the same scripture with a NOT on the end.

And here’s my Opposite World Translation,

“Finally brethren, whatsoever things are rumour or hearsay, whatever things are negative, whatever things are mean, whatever things are trashy, whatever things did up the dirt, whatever things bring a juicy report, if there are any skeletons in the closet, anything gossip worthy, think on these things.”

Are you living according to the Opposite World Translation or are you living according to the word of God? Cause it’s good to focus on the good report when you are surrounded completely by the bad report.

Hahaha! I quite like my Opposite World Translation, I’m kind of proud of it, I don’t know, I don’t know if I will find anyone to publish it yet but…

Number seven, wise as serpents harmless as doves.

Some people are all dove, other people are all serpent. Wise as serpent doesn’t mean wriggle your way out of things and spit venom to everyone. It does mean when you lead you’ve got to be harmless as doves. No guile. You got to, you got to lead in a way where, where ahh, your pure-hearted. But you also can’t be stupid. You’re leading people. God gave us a brain to think. You got to get the mind of the Spirit. You gotta- you gotta get the wisdom of God.

Sometimes you can react to a situation and it’s justified, especially if it deals with people, someone causing you problems in the church. It’s justified. But if that person has a whole huge following in the church and you just go ‘bang’ and cut them off, you’re going to pay the price. Be as wise as serpents, this is where we need to get to, where’re going to follow this process to get there, we’re going to take people on the journey harmless as doves. We’re not just manipulative and controlling and trying to contrive situations. You receiving this?

[Looks to audience for reaction]

Number eight, Man up or woman up, don’t go to water.

I mean everyone’s allowed a bad night, you know a tough day. But big picture, it’s time for your character to shine, not your flaws.

Now like I was saying in (not sure) desires, we could easily go quickly to our flaws, but this is a time when your Godly character is needed more than at any other time. So if we think about our personal reactions, if we are determined that we are going to face our own demons, whatever those demons are. If we decide we are going to challenge our reactions not justify them, challenge them.

So in other words things that have no, no good purpose. Whatever your facing right now don’t just, don’t just allow your reactions to run rampant, challenge them, man up, man up to things, face things, confront it. And I think it’s so important, this is where all of us in leadership, we run close to the red zone on the (not sure) any way the way we lead.

And you get a couple of things added on and all of a sudden you go into the red zone, which of course is the dangerous place to be leading from. And that’s why we’ve got to make sure we leave plenty of room in our emotional bank. So when you’ve got to withdraw on it, there’s something there to withdraw from.

And I talked about a panic attach that I got to and being told I had post traumatic stress, I could kind of believe it was true to be honest and I haven’t got time to go into my whole story but I can tell you this, that in the middle of all of that, basically, I saw myself especially when I was a younger leader, that stuff was for other people, I really thought I was invincible, I was never going to be hit, I was never going to be that person.

And it’s kind of scary, other leaders can relate to it when you suddenly realise, you’re that person. This is where I’m at. And ahh I had completely run out of emotional energy, I had nothing left and thank God for Bobbie because Bobbie is an absolute God send, all the time.

[Audience applauds]

But I would have to say at that time, Bobbie ‘manned up’, she ‘womanned up’ because she was taking me upwards, not downwards. Which is a pretty good thing for a spouse to remember, when we need to be bringing someone else up, let’s make sure of where where’re at, if where’re in a better state than them it’s going to bring them up and not bring them down.

Again, be aware of your coping mechanisms, you know sometimes we turn to things for coping that we wouldn’t normally do.

[Laughs]

You know around this time of the story I told you about in 1999, some close friends of Bobbie’s and mine, as a joke, sent uh- sent me a cigar. So they sent me this cigar and said ‘here maybe this will help you feel better’. Well, one thing I’m anti smoking, it’s not personal because there would be people who smoke in this crowd, so it’s not personal. But for me and our team of staff, we don’t have too many rules per say, but the one thing I do say is we don’t smoke and we don’t smoke.

And, ahh, so I was really very low one day. This story by the way, could cost me my credential by the way, but that’s alright I could just print off another one.

[Audience laughs]

The only time I ever used it was once, to get into a hospital car park for free.

[Audience laughs]

Besides the President of our movement had to go yesterday to do something up in far north, so I’ll tell you this story, it’s a little secret ok.

I’m home entirely by myself, it’s late at night, there’s no one around. I have a look at this cigar and I thought, you know I’ve never smoked a cigar, I thought, I just felt rebellious.

[Audience laughs]

I just felt rebellious. So it was pitch black, no one was home, I walked out to the garden, sat down their entirely by myself, and smoked entire cigar. I didn’t even know you weren’t supposed to draw in.

[Audience laughs]

No one had told me that. It kind of felt good. Hey be careful of your coping mechanisms.

[Audience laughs]

One thing you can do is take it out on the people who are closest to you and that’s dangerous too. All of a sudden you’re lashing out at everyone else and it’s nothing to do with them. It’s good when your being lashed out on sometimes to remember this is not actually about me, this is about them.

But it’s so easy when you need those around you the most, let’s not make sure that we don’t just start lashing out at the people we love because that’s kind of a coward’s way but it’s an easy thing to fall back on. In this whole subject of manning up, don’t be tempted to cover things up that can’t be covered up; it’s never going to do you any good. You’ve got to address things.

I’ve had to deal with many issues with people over all my years and some things you can deal with personally and confidentially and maybe with one or two other elders or board members. Some things obviously it’s going to take a little more than that. Some things you, you have no choice but to address it even publicly, ahh hopefully not too often.

I think some pastors do that far too quickly, take things public that never, ever needed to be public and you can help people through things that’s going to save their future, their ministry and their career. And if I ever have that option that’s exactly what I would do, if the options there but sometimes, the nature of it, that option’s just not there.

Number nine, you’ve got to gather trusted confiders, people you love and trust but not just anybody.

The bible talks about a multitude of Council not a multitude of opinions. So don’t just trust anyone, the lady of the hedge or outside the school gate may not be the best person. Or the hairdresser may not be the best person to vomit all over.

And if I were talking about confidence and people you surround yourself with, number one just make sure there people who are fore you and who love you and wouldn’t want to get any personal mileage out of this whatsoever. Not the kind of person who’s going to say, well you know because it makes them feel like a bigger person if they have information that no one else has, and so they… find people in your life who love you and want what’s best for you.

And in that, sometimes might be afraid to tell you what you need to hear. It’s incredible, one Old Testament king, you know he was ‘the man’. He went to 400 different prophets and every single one of them told him what he wanted to hear, none of them had the guts to tell him what he needed to hear.

Then ultimately there was one prophet who actually was courageous enough to tell him what he needed to hear. So when it comes to confidence, to me, I want people to live in a big world, the last thing I need is someone going ‘oh my God, this is the worst thing I have ever heard in my whole life’. You know you need people who, to me maybe their further ahead in life than you, not someone who’s behind you when it comes to experience and leadership and wisdom.

Because I don’t want someone who goes into panic and goes to water, I want somebody who they might have been there, that they’ve faced some of those things. The kind of counselling they are going to give you again is going to take you forwards and upwards. Don’t, don’t arr don’t talk to people who your issues are just going to through them into a mess of spin, and all of a sudden all they are giving you emotional and reactionary and doesn’t have any Godly wisdom to it whatsoever.

So to me generally (not sure what he says) are living in a big world and people are not going to be thrown too easily by your challenges cause they’ve faced a few themselves. Obviously, you are going to want people who are wise, Godly wisdom. You know common sense is not as common as we think and use people who have that ability to get a word of wisdom in that situation, Godly wisdom talk to those people. Talk to people who are generous hearted, they’re generous hearted means they are only going to want what’s best for you, whatever that is cause they are generous, they’re for you.

And I, I think it’s important to find positive people, I really do.

[Words appear on screen]

“Anxiety in the heart of a man causes depression, but a good word makes it glad. Proverbs 12:25 (NKJV)”

Get around people who are going to give you a good word. An overcoming word. You know, a positive break-through-type word.

And, and, err not just people who are sympathetic. Jesus was never moved with sympathy, every time he was moved with compassion something powerful was about to happen. So we can bound to people who are sympathetic, you know sympathy at times is the last thing we need. We diffidently need people who care, who understand. I think one of the toughest things in a crisis is people who want to be everyone’s friend. ‘I don’t want to get involved we just want to be everyone’s friend, we just want to be neutral.”

And there’s a Proverb, which I think is a great Proverb just in my NKJ version it says something really simple, it just says something like ahh, “He who’ – ahh – has many friends needs to show themselves friendly.” But if you look it up in the amplified bible it says ‘the person of many friends, the friend to the whole world is a bad friend’ and so it’s interesting when you think about that.

There are some situations we want to be everyone’s friend and you actually can’t then be anyone’s friend. And when you’re in a tough time you need people, they put their mast to the, you know whatever it is, they put themselves to the mast and they know how to be a friend to you at this time.

So not just anybody whosoever things are of good report.

Number ten, (and I’m going to go quickly), bring those around you on the journey.

I’m talking about your family, your loved ones. Bring them with you because you’re going to need them, so make sure you’re bring those around you on the journey and be an example to those who are leaning on you. Ahh be an example, that’s a game when you can show real strength, some real leadership. Even though your life’s hell right now you can help people around you who love you and who feel for you through this journey as well cause I know for example when Bobbie and I have been attacked, as much as I may feel it, my kids always felt it a whole lot more.

And ahh so the people who love us and all of us have got those people in our world, when you need them the most make sure the way that you are dealing with people is keeping them with you and bringing them with you on the journey.

Number eleven, just resolve what to do.

I talked about being wise as serpents, harmless as snakes. There’s that guy that lost his job (not sure what he says) and so his boss says ‘you’re fired’. The bible says in Luke 15:4 he resolved what to do.

[Words flash on screen]

“What man of you having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness (Luke 15:4).”

And you know things get so much better if you take the meditation time, you do the prayer, you trust God, you come to a point of resolve and you think, well look, this is what I’m going to do, we haven’t got a clue what to do, you don’t know what, you know that’s when your still in anxiety and panic mode.

But it’s good if you just take the time sometimes and think, look I need to do this, in leadership, I need to do this, I need to talk to these people, I need to this, I need to do that. Resolve what to do; it’s amazing how already internally you feel stronger with that already.

And ahh-

The last thing (then we are going to move onto the second part of this) is just vision, vision, vision.

If there’s ever a time to put the vision back out there, to re-vision ahh and to re-imagine it’s at times like that I can focus on the problem, I can focus on the crisis.

There was a crisis in Australia, which a lot of people know about where a guy put on a sickness and he wrote songs. Put on a sickness and attended our, attended to be a, you know – just a great big lie and it was, you know just a crazy time for the church in Australia. I know at that time I just resolved in our church, because this happened when he was attending our church, what we needed to do and there were certain things we needed to do.

I was away on holiday, with an overgrown beard I used my iphone to just talk to the church about it. I wrote a blog and on the blog I just explained the whole story from my experience. I made sure I sured up the people I needed to around and about me. And you know our church remarkably just went through that so well. And our youth group too who had been affected, our youth group as well, they came through it so well.

It’s important to resolve what to do, so that you’ve got strategy, you, you really think what you need to do.

But vision is critical, it’s critical, you know when you lose the wind out of your sails, I’m not a sailor but I do know if a boat loses the wind out of its sails, the quickest thing he needs to do is reset its sails so it gets the wind back in it or else he’s becalmed. And your leadership get’s becalmed if you ahh lose the wind out of your sail.

The best thing you can do as quick as you can is reset your sails. Just talk life, just talk hope, just get to the parts of the word that are going to build people up, put faith into people. While you’re putting faith into other people, you’re putting faith into you. One of the best ways to get happy is to preach yourself happy and we can either preach ourselves sad or we can preach ourselves happy. And I want to be the guy who preaches myself happy.

You know for me, praise God, learning the power of praise, I’m a believer, the gifts of the Spirit for the day, so you know God gives us a Heavenly language, that the bible says edifies us, it builds us up. So at that time, ahh I’m going to be not necessarily walking around screaming in tongues everywhere, but I will be internally, I will be using the language of the Spirit that the bible says strengthens me. So let’s go to those things that help us then to re-vision and set the sails forward and move on to all that God has got for us, Amen.”

Source: Brian Houston, Hillsong Conference 2014, Sydney, 2014.

What are your thoughts? Did you see anything outstanding in the video/transcript that you would like to share?

[Edit 26/09/2014: If you want to comment on this article, please be sensitive and respectful to the persons involved in this scandal. Any immature or abusive comments aimed at Hillsong, the Houstons or the victims will have their posts removed.]

The butcher, the faker and the dodgy film maker

15 Tuesday Apr 2014

Posted by Nailed Truth in Brian Houston's Beliefs

≈ 12 Comments

Tags

bobbie, bobbie houston, Brian, Brian Houston, bully, darlene, Darlene Zschech, demonic, discernment, experience, film, gnosticism, Heaven is for Real, Heaven is for Real movie, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, movie, New Age, Zschech

Real Christian teachers and pastors are stunned at the magnitude of stupidity rife within Christian churches in light of the fictional book ‘Heaven is For Real’. Here is a real CHRISTIAN pastor warning his church about the dangers of the work ‘Heaven is for Real’.

As a young website, we are only beginning to demonstrate the magnitude of the foolishness that flows from the Hillsong pulpit and its fearsome leaders, Brian (the bible butcher) and Bobbie Houston (the fake pastrix). Recently, we have seen Brian Houston and his wife Bobbie show serious pastoral incompetence in their guidance to their congregation (and worldwide Twitter followers) on important Christian issues.

This celebrity-pastor, movie-endorsing duo seem to love the limelight and are increasingly promoting films that transform the Word of God and the Christian life into myth and fable. The latest blasphemous film they are endorsing is quite disturbing for a number of reasons and poses a danger to the Body of Christ as it promotes a false Jesus and a false spirit.

BRIAN’S ENDORSEMENT

Brian Houston can’t see the dangers of the film. Here is Brian Houston endorsing the film Heaven is for Real:

“Some faith based films that have come out recently especially those that are really much closer to the “text” are a real blessing because it does give you opportunity to bring friends, bring family and even for churches. Churches go as a community, go to see movies together. And I think that’s wonderful.

I remember when initially the ‘Passion of the Christ’ came out, churches like ours, we just hired numbers and numbers and numbers of theaters and just packed them out. So it really does also give you a chance to rally the community around something that’s evangelistic, entertaining but can generally make a big difference in people’s souls where it matters.”

Rally the community around something that’s “evangelistic”? Scriptures teach us that Satan parades as an angel of light. Why rally the community around something that is opposed to God’s Word? Entertainment in this case is simply the carrot to entice gullible Christians to embrace a blasphemous film. What matters is God’s Word. If his Word is replaced with anti-Christian films like this – then Hillsong’s evangelistic attempts are worse than useless. It’s deadly to people’s souls.

Later Brian Houston addresses the issue of bullying in the film.

 “The people who are most empowered to handle bullying are the people who see it happening and determine, “I am not going to stay back, I’m going to do something about this”. And confront it and create environments where it’s simply unacceptable. I guess you know if you are the one who is being bullied you can feel very helpless because you would presume the person is either more powerful than you or they’re bigger than you or they’ve got a nastier tongue than you. And often sensitive people being bullied, they don’t feel like they have a come-back. The very best thing is when people gather around them, put their arms around them and say, “You know, you don’t have to go through this by yourself”.

It’s odd hearing Brian Houston speak against bullying in this movie advert considering he has no problem slagging of Christians who hold him accountable to what he says or bullies Christians in and outside off his church into submission. Maybe Houston needs to look at himself in the mirror and consider how he uses mob-like tactics, legal intimidation and deceit to shut Christians up. Why not admonish the members at Hillsong Conference that attacked Christians at your event, Brian?

BOBBIE’S ENDORSEMENT

Recently Bobbie Houston enthusiastically recommended Christians see the blatantly New Age movie ‘Heaven is for Real’:

Very grateful to watch a pre-screening of HEAVEN IS FOR REAL film. Oh my. Beautiful. Inspiring. Delightful. Moving. Cried. Smiled. Thoroughly recommend. AND AMAZING HOW GOD IS TRULY speaking to hearts from all angles. #forsuchatimeasthis #releasedEaster

Source: rlhouston, http://instagram.com/p/mnAAdDIY3Q/, 10/04/2014. (Accessed 10/04/2014.)

proof_InstagramBobbieHeavenIFR_11-04-2014

If you click the thumbnail, you will see a picture in the movie of a girl painting Jesus. Why are we mentioning this artist? Because when Colton Burpo saw Akaine’s painting of Jesus, he identified it as the Jesus he saw in heaven.

NEW AGE ARTIST – AKIANE KRAMARICK

The girl in the film is Akiane painting her famous ‘Prince of Peace’ portrait of Jesus. This should alert Christians everywhere to the New Age agenda being pushed behind the movie (whether genuine agenda or not). Arkiane was heavily promoted as a child prodigy by the notorious, New Age Elijah-List collective for her spiritual paintings. Sadly, her work has been regarded as “Christian” in spite of her overall New Age tones and philosophies. You can check out some of her works here.

proof_AkianeWaterAngel_11-04-2014

proof_AkianeElightenment_11-04-2014

Even in the preview, you can see that the theology is completely wrong. Trivialising ‘heaven’ into a reich-like community is not even remotely Christian. Allowing the naive, unbiblical teachings of a four year old’s experience to now dictate and trump the truth of scripture reveals just how undescerning people like Brian and Bobbie Houston really are. So why are they pushing this film so strongly?

Is it because Hillsong’s beloved Darlene Zschech was involved behind the scenes for the musical production of the film and want to flog no other name but Jesus their brand name? (Edit 16/04/2014: While we know Zschech no longer attends Hillsong Church a commentor said something similar and stated “her latest album was produced by Louie Giglio, it’s not financially connected with Hillsong”. If this is true then we will acknowledge this. However, that does not mean that Darlene won’t help Hillsong further their brand name, as she identifies herself as a close friend. The song below ends with the lyrics, “Heaven, heaven is so real”. This may be a coincidence although Brian, Bobbie and Darlene are known around the world for representing the Hillsong brand.)

There are a significant number of articles that examine the dodgy theology behind the book which should give people the idea just how bad the film (and the book) is.  We have sampled a few excellent ones here, and hope that our readers will enjoy the different observations these writers have made. Overwhelmingly, these Christian commentators were highly critical of the book and have biblical grounds for refuting the claims made by Burpo and others making similar claims. Most of the authors of these articles also identified the New Age undertones of the book’s content and expressed their concern over how human experience is trumping the truth of Scripture.

Heaven is for Real…Well Duh.

Film Adaptation of ‘Heaven Is for Real’ Being Planned; T.D. Jakes to Produce

The Burpo-Malarkey Doctrine

Heaven is for Real But the Movie is Not

Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not

Book Review: Heaven is for real

Demonic Deceptions in the Heaven stories. (Mostly about the Colton Burpo story Heaven Is For Real)

NOTE: All screen grabs were taken on the 11/04/2014.

Thank you Brian Houston for your response but please clarify further

23 Sunday Mar 2014

Posted by Nailed Truth in Associations

≈ 8 Comments

Tags

Brian, Brian Houston, chris, Chris Rosebrough, Fighting For The Faith, Hillsong, houston, Rosebrough

Before reading this article, please read these below articles first.

Brian Houston: “the Muslim and you, we actually serve the same God”

Brian Houston & Chris Rosebrough Offering Corrections

We are very concerned with the liberal-secular trends and language emerging from Hillsong. People are now dropping the word Chrislam and associating Brian Houston’s behaviour with his friend Rick Warren and Warren’s controversial Chrislam agenda. This may be true. This may not be true.

The important thing is this: We need Brian Houston of Hillsong Church to properly clarify some serious issues surrounding his recent statements.

OUR RESPONSE TO BRIAN HOUSTON

We hope that Houston responds to our below questions,

Dear Brian Houston

We really appreciate you commenting on our blog. It’s a relief to know that you are keen to clarify this error.

There seems to be confusion among members in your church what the difference is between Islam and Christianity. We believe this is a wonderful opportunity for you to address the differences between the two faiths.

While you seem to have clarified the issue, you seem to strongly suggest that “the loving open inclusive arms of a loving God” includes both Christians and Muslims in light of your statement, “the Muslim and you, we actually serve the same God. Allah to a Muslim, to us Abba Father God”.

You’ve supposedly addressed the first issue over Muslims and Christians worshiping the same God but you didn’t clarify where you implied the inclusivity of God in that context. Do you believe that Muslims can be reconciled to God without knowing Christ’s substitionary punishment for their sins? 

Lastly, is there anything else in that particular sermon that you feel impelled to publicly repudiate since you said “my allegiance is to the Lord Jesus Christ alone”?

We do not wish to misrepresent your words.

Regards
Churchwatcher

CHRIS ROSEBROUGH’S RESPONSE TO BRIAN HOUSTON

Why is it so important for Brian Houston to respond publicly on such matters? Chris Rosebrough from Fighting for the Faith recently commented on our site which we thought was worth reposting.

Brian Houston’s clarification here and on Twitter will be discussed on Monday’s episode of Fighting for the Faith… And here are the problem’s with it:

1) Because of the seriousness of Houston’s gaff (since that’s how he’s treating it) is so great that what is absolutely necessary for him to do is to issue a public statement, preferably both in writing and from his pulpit. It is not sufficient for him to have left a comment on a blog post or make a brief statement on twitter.

2) The brief clarification that Houston has given only adds more confusion to an already convoluted statement. This is due to the fact that Islam DID NOT originate from the descendants of Ishmael. Islam didn’t even show up in human history until 2,700 years AFTER Ishmael was born.

3) To clarify his statement by saying that Islam claims to worship the same God as Abraham is, again, a statement that causes even more confusion. Mormon’s claim to worship the same God as Abraham and so do Jehovah’s witnesses. Yet, the gods that they worship have nothing in common with the YHWH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

In order to properly repair the breach that Houston has created by his statement he MUST PUBLICLY, in a high profile way, repudiate his own statement and must make it clear that Islam does NOT worship or serve the same God as Christians OR Abraham. He must make it clear that Allah is an idol and a false god and that salvation cannot be found in Islam but only in repentant faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Until Houston does that, it is my opinion that he’s only attempting to engage in political damage control.

Source: Chris Rosebrough (@piratechristian), Brian Houston: “the Muslim and you, we actually serve the same God”, Hillsong Church Watch, https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/03/17/brian-houston-the-muslim-and-you-we-actually-serve-the-same-god/#comment-1949, March 22, 2014 at 2:53 pm. (Accessed 23/03/2014. Spelling errors in original comment correct.)

Warning Of Fascist Trends Coming To C3 Global Presence Conference 2014: “Wake up Church, this is not Christianity!”

03 Monday Feb 2014

Posted by Nailed Truth in Uncategorized

≈ 28 Comments

Tags

Brian, Brian Houston, C3 Global Presence Conference 2014, C3 Presence Conference 2014, community, darwinism, emotion, existentialism, fascism, fascist, global presence conference, Global Presence Conference 2014, houston, louie giglio, Pastor Brian, pastor brian houston, phil pringle, Presence Conference, Presence Conference 2014, ps brian houston, romanticism

The fascist practices and philosophies emerging from the mega-church cults like C3, CHC and Hillsong church should concern Christians everywhere. They are unafraid to use propaganda and fuhrer-prinzip methodologies. They elevate arts, experience and feelings over logic and reason. They propagate the cult of youth and use the size of their ‘volkish’ community to bully Christians into submitting to their strong leadership and movements.

Sound extreme? Are we exaggerating the phenomenon? Are we making this up? Sadly, this is all too real. They may not realise it but these movements are built on the same community-identification principles that characterised the fascist movements in Europe in the 1920’s and 1930’s. Be aware that fascism isn’t to be confused with policies. Italian Fascism and German National Socialism were primarily personality cults where the vision of the leader must be implemented … the policies tended to be indistinguishable from socialism/communism. They were populist policies that played to the masses. The real danger is not where a Brian Houston or a Phil Pringle would take their organisations. The real danger is in whoever comes after them. C3 and Hillsong have set a precedent in Australia for the vision-casting leader who must be obeyed … or else!

Louie Giglio is speaking this year at Phil Pringle’s C3 Global Presence Conference 2014. Oddly enough, it has been observed that Giglio’s ministry also has fascist trends emerging from their movement. Please warn people how dangerous this man’s ministry is. Please also warn Christians the dangers of Phil Pringle’s Presence Conference.

Fascist Trends of Passion 2014

I cannot unpack all of the complexities of ideological fascism in this blog post and how it has revived under the name of postmodernism in our day and popular culture. 2 years in the works at HBP is an upcoming film on Fascism and the Postmodern church. See our full-length interview with Dr. Gene Edward Veith,Postmodernism, Fascism and the Church.

When people think of fascism today they think of Hitler, anti-semitism, the Holocaust, genocide, racism, militarism and the Nazis. Today, the word “Fascist” has been deduced to an insulting label for vilifying political enemies, but its true nature is greatly misunderstood. While Hitler and the Axis powers were defeated militarily in WWII, fascist ideology remains alive and well today under a new name.

Popular contemporary Christianity also appears to be emerging into something new. Much like the mainstream of European prefascist theology, many mainline church denominations have been turning away from transcendence and the Scriptures in favor of a spirituality based upon immanence, cultural activism, and existentialism. Many churches that were once committed to a high view of the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are now shifting their focus toward experience, emotionalism and communalism. In many ways, Christianity may be the strongest defense against fascism, but it may also be its point of entry. (See Veith’s book Modern Fascism: The Threat to the Judeo Christian Worldview and Chris Rosebrough’s lecture Resistance is Futile: You Will Be Assimilated into the Community)

Along with Darwinism and Existentialism, Romanticism was also a key component of the counter-Enlightenment worldview of ideological fascism. Romanticism emphasized inspiration and subjectivity as a reaction against alienation and the rationalism that characterized the Enlightenment. This movement in arts and literature reasserted the value of nature by explaining it with experience and emotions as opposed to reason, intellect and rationality.Passion, not reason, was uniquely “natural.”

Fascism rejected the concept of the individual. Nature, emotion and community become the emphasis of the fascist spirituality of immanence. In order to achieve this group identity, fascism was often characterized by grandiose public rallies. Hitler is pictured surrounded by people in panoramic shots of the community. “We have a community,” says Giglio in this Passion 2014 promo.

The group becomes the living organism or organic community. What you will find emphasized on the Passion 2014 website is not teaching the observance of everything Jesus commanded but the fascist themes of immanence (“God’s presence”) and community (“united”):

TWO GATHERINGS. ONE HEARTBEAT. THE JESUS GENERATION UNITED. . . .

Last year, our US gathering drew more than 60,000 students and leaders from around the world to the Georgia Dome in Atlanta. We were blown away by God’s presence. (source)

Rather than appealing to doctrine and objective truth, there is much talk and reliance upon feelings, emotions, action and movement. In fascism and postmodernism alike, emotionalism takes the place of logic. If objective truth and morality is alienating, then subjective experience is uniting.

Fascists did not know where this progressive revolution was going, but they believed anychange or any movement was better. Hitler uses the phrase “the Movement” over two hundred times in Mein Kampf and a Nazi Party journal was entitled Die Bewegung (The Movement).1 Similarly, the Postmodern Emerging Church has no fixed destination but is about action and movement. Likewise, the Passion 2014 event is described as a “movement.” Louie Giglio says, “More than an event, Passion is a movement,” in this Passion 2014 promo video.

The themes of the Passion movement and Passion 2014 are distinctly fascist. Christian Post reports:

The Passion 2014 Atlanta Conference kicked off at Philips Arena in Atlanta Friday with over 20,000 university students attending the two-day event from around the world.

Students from over 1,200 universities and 33 countries attended this year’s Passion conference in Atlanta. This is the first of Passion’s two large-scale gatherings this year in North America for 18-25 year olds. Passion 2014 Houston will be held on February 14-15 at the Toyota Center.

Passion 2014 brings together several internationally renowned pastors, teachers and worship leaders. Joining Passion founders Louie and Shelley Giglio in Atlanta will be John Piper, Christine Caine, and Francis Chan. Grammy award winning artists and worship leaders Chris Tomlin and Matt Redman, are slated to lead worship, along with David Crowder, Kristian Stanfill, Christy Nockels and Hillsong United. (source)

passion-conference-2014-youth

Notice the event attendance is limited to ages 18-25 year old. The English fascist James Barnes wrote, “the present Weltanschauung of fascism may be summed up in one word–youth.”2 Belgian and Romanian fascisms both originated in student movements and the youth were also predominant in fascisms in France, Spain, Italy and England.3 Calling to mind Hitler Youth and German youth culture, Jonah Goldberg writes,

Historically, fascism is of necessity and by design a form of youth movement, and all youth movements have more than a whiff of fascism about them. The exaltation of passion over reason, action over deliberation, is a naturally youthful impulse.4

Last year, the Passion 2013 was an event for young Christians. These Christian conferences that fill stadiums with thousands of people reflect the subjective experience and emotional fulfillment of fascism that comes from losing one’s identity in a larger organic mass community. Judah Smith emphasized the importance of community all throughout his sermon.

The musical performances are very emotional with an emphasis on experiencing God’s presence and the heart rather than the mind. The audience joins in a common experience, feeling and responding as one. These stunning spectacles complete with light shows and music, much like the grandiose public rituals and mass rallies of fascism, actually create community. See here where the “presence” of God, tasting, seeing, and subjective feelings/”experience” are elevated, the fascist marks of immanence over objective truth and rationality.

The consequences of these fascist ideas will unleash a monster. Events like this are raising up a generation that cannot think or reason for themselves. We are seeing a picture that mirrors that of the culture of Continental Europe just prior to WWII. Wake up Church, this is not Christianity!

Sources:
1 Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (New York, NY: Random House Inc., 2007), 176
2 Zeev Sternhell, Fascist Ideology, Ed. Walter Laqueur, University of California Press, 338
3 Zeev Sternhell, Fascist Ideology, Ed. Walter Laqueur, University of California Press, 342
4 Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (New York, NY: Random House Inc., 2007), 165

Source: Elliott Nesch, Fascist Trends of Passion 2014, Holy Bible Prophecy, http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/2014/01/20/fascist-trends-of-passion-2014/, 20/01/2014. (Accessed 25/01/2014.)

Denton Interviews Levins On Hillsong: “I was detoxed from toxic Christianity”

03 Saturday Nov 2012

Posted by Nailed Truth in Books, News Headlines

≈ 19 Comments

Tags

abc, andrew denton, Brian, Brian Houston, denton, enough rope, hill$ong, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, interview, levins, tanya levins

On ABC’s ‘Enough Rope’, Andrew Denton interviewed a woman by the name of Tanya Levin. Tanya Levin shared her insights as a Hillsong member.

“Tanya Levin grew up in Hillsong and has written a book about her experiences.
After pressure by hillsong the original publisher dropped her book for fear of backlash from Hillsong.
Finally a publisher has had the courage to print her story
this is her first interview.

The book is released August 7 2007″ – Tanya Levin’s – People in glass houses part 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Y4cvSyBjo, Uploaded by HillsongTV on Aug 1, 2007. (Accessed 02/11/2012.)

The book is titled ‘People In Glass Houses’. We will be examining her material on Hillsong Church Watch. Watch her interview here:

Source: Tanya Levin’s – People in glass houses part 2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLzmTJ770K0, Uploaded by HillsongTV on Aug 1, 2007. (Accessed 02/11/2012.)

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Tanya Levin

Tanya Levin
Its growth in this country has been phenomenal. Politicians from all parties have cosied up to its congregation and it preaches that God wants you to be rich. It is the Hillsong Church. Now for the first time one of its flock, Tanya Levin, offers an insider account.

ANDREW DENTON: Please welcome Tanya Levin. Tanya welcome.

APPLAUSE

TANYA LEVIN: Thank you Andrew.

ANDREW DENTON: Tanya your book’s been controversial even before it’s been published and we’ll get to the controversy in a while, but I want to go back to January the 4th, 1987…

TANYA LEVIN: Ah…

ANDREW DENTON: Your diary entry the day you were freed from the spirit of rock n’ roll. What happened that day?

TANYA LEVIN: I was at church on a Sunday morning, and Hills Christian Life Centre as it was known then, had been advertising for a long time that rock n’ roll music was evil, that it was the work of Satan. And I recognised one of the leaders who actually was working in radio at the time, and I thought I’ll go up to him and I’ll say “This music’s okay, isn’t it?” And he actually turned to me and he said “I, I need you to be free from the spirit of rock n’ roll.” He said “I know that you are following one of the high priests of Satan, which is Bruce Springsteen, and you need to go home now and you need to destroy all of that material.”
ANDREW DENTON: So did you go…

TANYA LEVIN: But Bruce.

ANDREW DENTON: You went home and…

TANYA LEVIN: I went home and for about an hour and a half I cried and I cried and I cried and I ripped all the posters off the wall and I broke the records, they were actually old records and I, I broke them and I ripped out the cassettes and I cried and I prayed and I cried and that was 1987.

ANDREW DENTON: Your parents introduced you to the Hills Christian Church when you were young, about 13…

TANYA LEVIN: Hm mm.

ANDREW DENTON: And they both were…involved in the Pentecostal religion. Now I want to talk a bit about Pentecostal religion, that is where there is a belief of, it’s common to find the supernatural in every day life. And I guess an example of that would be talking in tongues. Is that right?

TANYA LEVIN: Glossolalia, it’s known as.

ANDREW DENTON: Glossolalia.

TANYA LEVIN: That’s its formal name…

ANDREW DENTON: There you go.

TANYA LEVIN: Pentecostalism is very much about a physical experience with the supernatural, be it waving your hands or praying over the people, or it’s a real embodiment thing and it’s, and it is also punctuated by speaking in tongues.

ANDREW DENTON: What’s it like to experience?

TANYA LEVIN: Well it’s…interesting in a church environment where lots of different people are doing it at once, then it can…really be a free-for-all that it can be really scary. Once you’re in tune with the culture though, it seems completely normal. I thought everybody did it as a part of their childhood.

ANDREW DENTON: Did you speak in tongues?

TANYA LEVIN: Yes, since I was eight years old. I had always been raised in a Christian household and I didn’t know any different when I was eight, that we were going to a Pentecostal church it’s…a lot of fun. I mean there’s a lot of happiness and fun and the joy of, of the Lord is, is revealed.

ANDREW DENTON: You write about it quite movingly actually, you talk about being on fire for God and how beautiful believing is. Can you explain some of what that beauty is?

TANYA LEVIN: It is. It’s a very…beautiful thing. It’s a very simplistic story to believe, but it’s all about a very personal intimate relationship with God. You know, you’re part of a big group that is there to save the world and is there to, you know. The Hillsong, for example has always portrayed themselves as a really fun church, very contemporary. And the music’s great. And, you know, who wouldn’t want to be there?

ANDREW DENTON: You actually say that you don’t think you could have written this book without Hillsong Church. In many ways they made you what you are today. How is that?

TANYA LEVIN: It’s incredible. You get taught to be absolutely invincible. You get taught that you can overcome anything, that you can achieve anything, through God. Ah and…it makes you feel incredibly courageous, and incredibly able to face the world, with the power, and the spiritual reinforcement, that you believe you’ve been given.

ANDREW DENTON: The flip-side to the beauty of believing that sense of invincibility was, was a fear you, you describe being terrified ah and that demons could come in many forms. Where would demons come from?

TANYA LEVIN: In the 80’s we were taught pretty much that demons were everywhere, they were hiding behind every tree and every bush and if you let your guard down for a minute, those demons will come in and possess you and make you do things that you don’t want to do.

ANDREW DENTON: Okay so when did the enemy, which is what you refer to Satan as, when did the enemy start whispering doubt into your ear?

TANYA LEVIN: I would have been about 16 and I was still at the Hills Christian Life Centre. It was still a fairly small congregation so there was still maybe 500 people there. And it was all I’d known for, for these years and then, I just started getting thoughts in my head, these people are crazy.

ANDREW DENTON: What was it that you suddenly saw that you thought was crazy?

TANYA LEVIN: I’d watched, I would watch people and it looked like they were participating in some kind of charade and I didn’t know how that was possible. Also the tongues didn’t make sense. Like I thought that’s really gibberish, that can’t be real. “Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba” is what you hear.

ANDREW DENTON: Yeah.

TANYA LEVIN: And I thought no, something’s, something’s not right here.

ANDREW DENTON: When you were 24 by, you got a social work degree and you ended up doing some work with the Salvos and very interesting phrase, you said “I was ah detoxed from toxic Christianity.”

TANYA LEVIN: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: That’s a very strong phrase, “toxic Christianity.” Is that how you view Pentecostalism at that point?

TANYA LEVIN: I…have to say I do now. I spent five years working alongside Salvation Army officers who have a completely different outlook on what Christianity is. And they’re very, very humble people, and they’re very, very committed to serving the community.

ANDREW DENTON: And how did you see that as different to what you saw at Hillsong?

TANYA LEVIN: The Salvation Army are very much geared towards charity and gospel and Hillsong was very much geared towards money, recruitment and fund raising.

ANDREW DENTON: I want to show you a bit of Brian Houston, this is from ah Australian Story in 2005.

FOOTAGE PLAYS

ANDREW DENTON: You write in the book that even today when you hear Brian’s voice it makes you feel better. How does Brian work for you?

TANYA LEVIN: That’s funny. When you go to bible college apparently you…learn that when you say, tell the person next to you, it’s just a way, where for when the pastor’s lost his thought train. So “Turn to the person next to you and say you look great”. He’s…a very powerful speaker. His content is not very heavy but he’s very charismatic. And, you know, he’s a voice of my childhood. He’s a voice of, you know, leadership in my upbringing, so you know, and he always sounds so happy, and so pleased to be where he is and so proud of you, that you’re doing this thing with him, that you almost want to be a part of it all over again.

ANDREW DENTON: It was 2002, and in fact, it was the speech Brian made to the congregation. An important speech which really started your, I think it’s fair to say, your path to disillusionment.

TANYA LEVIN: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: Can you talk us through that?

TANYA LEVIN: He proceeded to talk about his father having, you know, having to have confronted his father over a serious, what he called a “serious moral failure”. These were allegations of sexual offences against teenage boys, which was never actually named on the day. So this was a “serious moral failure”. He’d had to confront his father about it, his father had confessed, the National Executive had then taken away his credentials, investigated, and taken away Houston Senior’s credentials. And that Brian Houston himself was crushed. And he asked for the congregation to pray for his family, for his wife and his children, and the congregation did. They stood up and they applauded him, and that was the end of that speech.

ANDREW DENTON: There was no reference to the people that had been abused or whose lives may have been damaged.

TANYA LEVIN: Absolutely no reference to the victims. There was no stance taken on child sexual assault, or child abuse of any form or care for children, ah there was no standing up and saying “Look, we will not tolerate this in our congregation”. And in fact what it made me wonder was, if this is how they treat these kinds of issues on the most public level that they’ve got, how are they treating them on smaller more, you know, in more private arenas?

ANDREW DENTON: You raise a number of questions about Hillsong Church in it and one of those is about prosperity theology, which is probably best summed up and the title of this book by Brian Houston ‘You Need More Money.’ Can you explain to us what ‘prosperity theology’ is?

TANYA LEVIN: Prosperity theology is the belief, the absolute belief, that according to the bible, according to the verses in the bible, God wants you to be rich. He wants you to have prosperity in every area of your life, particularly your finances. And that to not be that way is actually to be disobedient to the word of God.

ANDREW DENTON: Why would God want you to be rich, what does that achieve?

TANYA LEVIN: You know, if the Christians can have all the wealth then they can redistribute it as they wish to. You know, to the areas of poverty that they want to distribute it to, the areas of need that they see fit.

ANDREW DENTON: Well Hillsong has…a strong record of distributing to charity, this is what Brian Houston said on Australian Story about where some of their money goes.

FOOTAGE PLAYS

ANDREW DENTON: From your viewpoint, is that the whole picture?

TANYA LEVIN: It’s very abstract. 60 per cent of their money goes towards helping people directly, that could mean any number of things.

ANDREW DENTON: Do you do you suspect ah that under closer scrutiny, that there is something questionable, ah the way Hillsong operates?

TANYA LEVIN: I can’t argue that there’s anything questionable. What I can argue that is questionable, is the lack of transparency. So, you know, as much as they might say their books are open, everybody that I’ve interviewed who has asked to have a look at the books is told that they’ve got a bad attitude or they’ve got doubts and therefore we get back to the story of sin and doubt so.

ANDREW DENTON: You also talk about Bobbie Houston and how you came to question some of her values. What is it according to Bobbie, and the teachings of Hillsong, that kingdom women should aspire to be?

TANYA LEVIN: Bobbie Houston, who’s Brian’s wife, is the women’s leader for Hillsong. And, she teaches from a proverb, ah from the Book of Proverbs, number 31, which is about a devoted wife. So kingdom woman should be a devoted wife, she should be a helper and a companion, which is what Eve was created for, for Adam. She should at all times be supportive of her husband’s goals, that is what a kingdom woman is there for, and if she doesn’t have a husband, she should be in training to get a good husband, so that she can fulfil his goals.

ANDREW DENTON: In 2005 you went to the Colour Your World Hillsong Women’s Conference…

TANYA LEVIN: Mm

ANDREW DENTON: And this is really the moment where you decided you want to write a book. What happened there?

TANYA LEVIN: Ah haaa. Hillsong…are running the charity, ‘Compassion’, which is on a child sponsorship model of and…they’re promoting very heavily child sponsorship, in Uganda. And they had a big photo of an African child with his hands… And the caption was, “Will you be my sponsor” and I thought next they’re going to put them in like bikinis and lipstick and then what we, like at what point is this exploitation.

ANDREW DENTON: Nonetheless it does seem to me to be perhaps…an overly strong way, but it seems to me to be people trying to do something that’s worthwhile.

TANYA LEVIN: It’s very clearly people trying to do something that will further the advancement of fundamentalist Christianity. This orphanage in Uganda is explicitly set up for the children to learn how to be Pentecostals, with hopes that one day there’ll be a Pentecostal leader in Uganda.

ANDREW DENTON: So you’re suggesting that Hillsong’s primarily set up for recruitment?

TANYA LEVIN: And fundraising.

ANDREW DENTON: And fundraising for itself, which would imply that the faith, that is apparently its core, is not necessarily a genuine faith. Is this more a question of you having lost your faith, rather than the church having lost its?

TANYA LEVIN: It took a very long time to take my faith away from me, it was really the last thing I wanted to do was to admit that all of this stuff was true. My opinions have changed again since I’ve been researching and I’ve met so many people, negatively effected by churches like this, that it just added up to be you know, too many people with the same kinds of stories.

ANDREW DENTON: You refer to them as the walking wounded, why are they wounded?

TANYA LEVIN: I found a very strong pattern in what happens when people show resistance. So everything’s happy and everything’s fine when you don’t show any kind of resistance. If you show resistance to the pastors, the leadership, the program, the teaching, you’re dealt with very severely.

ANDREW DENTON: What does severely mean?

TANYA LEVIN: Well, you know, in cases there are people who who have been told that they’re demonic, and generally what is happened is that eh once people are showing enough resistance, that is going to need to be quelled immediately. So they’re often ostracised, and other congregants are told not to have anything to do with them, because they’ve got doubts, you know, they’re, they’re not for us, they must be against us. It’s a very fundamentalist polarised point of view.

ANDREW DENTON: Okay. When you told Brian and Bobbie that you wanted to write this book, because you did, what happened, what was the response?

TANYA LEVIN: Well, I got a response from the General Manager of Hillsong, who said that I cause significant disruption, that I was never to go on Hillsong premises again and that no they won’t be helping me with the book.

ANDREW DENTON: I should point out that we have invited Brian and Bobbie Houston to respond to Tanya’s interview and they have an open forum on this show if they wish to take it. This is the first interview you’ve done, so the the wave is about to break over you.

TANYA LEVIN: Mm.

ANDREW DENTON: The consequences of your book, are you sure you’ve done the right thing?

TANYA LEVIN: I know absolutely that I’ve done the right thing. Every time I watch some Hillsong tape I’m convinced because when I started out I thought “Ooh where will I research, what will I do?” And now all I have to do is is watch Hillsong’s own promotional material, and they will say to you explicitly that they want to build more buildings but they need more money, to do it so, you know, there are no hidden meanings there, it’s very explicit. And when you have a biblical world view and you see the whole world through the, you know, the words of the bible or the the pastor that you’ve been trained by, you can’t see it as simplistically, and it’s obviously taken me years and years, to separate it all out.

ANDREW DENTON: Well Tanya, thank you for speaking so clearly tonight. Appreciate it.

TANYA LEVIN: Thank you very much Andrew.

Source: Tanya Levin, Enough Rope, ABC, http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1992756.htm,  Episodes 30/07/2007. (Accessed 03/11/2012.)

NOTE: ALL SCREEN GRABS WERE TAKEN BEFORE THE 04/11/2012.

The Issues With Hillsong

11 Thursday Oct 2012

Posted by Nailed Truth in News Headlines

≈ 5 Comments

Tags

Brian, Brian Houston, bullock, cash, cash buckets, concert, credit card, geoff bullock, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, money, mulah, multi-media, rock concert, salary, salary tithe, tithe, tithing

The Australian reports:

The High Cost of Faith

Published by News Limited, 29 April 2006, by Jennifer Sexton.

As crowds – and their cash – flood into Hillsong Church, former members tell Jennifer Sexton about the heavy price they paid for leaving the flock.

Whoa! I wanna know you, I wanna know you today.” With that catchy lyric, the lead singer rips into a punky-pop riff on his electric guitar as the band and side-stage choir spring to life. Over a sea of raised arms, five cameras capture the action as the audience, in time with the lanky, tousle-haired lead singer, belts out a thundering chorus: “You’re the best thing that has happened to me.”

No, this isn’t MTV live. It’s Hillsong Church, part religious service, part rock concert, part multi-media conglomerate. Every weekend at Hillsong churches in Sydney 19,000 people sing, clap and jump through a two-hour tribute to a God who rocks. As traditional religious congregations shrink, Hillsong attendance expanded more than 13 per cent in 2004.

There are no images of Jesus being tortured on the cross at Hillsong headquarters in Sydney’s Baulkham Hills, no vaulted ceilings. The audience sits not on wooden pews but on 3500 cushioned theatre seats. Under each one is an envelope and credit card form for believers to donate their pre-tax 10 per cent salary tithe. Ushers flood the aisles and pass black buckets down each row. The buckets have holes in the bottom, presumably to discourage parish-ioners from giving coins. And the rivers of cash keep flowing: donations and salary tithes to Hillsong were $15.3 million in 2004; merchandise, CDs, books and DVDs, returned a further $6.93 million, while total church revenue has now passed the $50 million mark – all tax-free thanks to Hillsong’s charitable status. And then there are the donations – it’s anybody’s guess how much – from the owners of the $40 million Gloria Jean’s coffee empire, Nabi Saleh and Peter Irvine, who are both senior members of Hillsong, the former as treasurer. The message of Hillsong’s prosperity gospel is: the richer you are, the more you can help others.

But along with the expanding congregation and profit margins have come the ugly rumours that won’t go away – of underhanded treatment of disaffected church members, of attempts to silence critics, of profiteering from the faithful. Only last month, the Labor Mayor of Blacktown in Sydney’s west, Leo Kelly, accused Hillsong of attempting to pressure him, via an ALP state official, to dampen his criticism of their use of public funds.

Hillsong’s main benevolent arm, Hillsong Emerge Ltd, has been accused in federal and NSW parliament of misappropriating commonwealth grants worth millions of dollars. And a former member, Robert John Orehek, was charged with fraud after allegedly fleecing believers of up to $20 million, which he sank into failed and fraudulent property investments.

THE KING OF HILLSONG EVANGELISM, Brian Houston, bounds onto the stage, clad in a dapper suit. “The faithful are in church tonight,” he declares, surveying the auditorium. “Awesome!” The background music fades away and the house lights brighten. People reach into their bags for Bibles and notebooks. Houston savours a silent pause. He’s been thinking about the seven deadly sins. “What would be my deadly sins, destructive in the lives of people?” Avarice, gluttony and wrath are apparently old hat. Houston instead says the sins are negativity, regret, complacency. Just a few weeks later, Hillsong’s formidable marketing arm has swung into action, releasing a four-CD set of Houston’s teaching on the sins that undermine potential in people, retailing for $35 in the church shop.

Houston has become the most influential pastor in the Pentecostal movement, and is a household name to born-again Australians. He also has political pulling power: Prime Minister John Howard, Treasurer Peter Costello and former NSW premier Bob Carr have all addressed the Hillsong congregation in recent years. In the last federal election, Hillsong member Liberal Louise Markus narrowly snatched from Labor the seat of Greenway, next to Hillsong’s Baulkham Hills church.

After the service – there are 30 every week in the two main Sydney venues, Baulkham Hills and Waterloo – people pour into the Hillsong shop. Half of the back display is devoted to the CDs and books by Houston and his perky wife of 28 years, Bobbie. Their bright white teeth and perfect hair seem to shine down from dozens of book and CD covers. In Bobbie’s CD set She Loves and Values her Sexuality she proclaims, “You might be happy with your weight but is your husband happy with your weight? … How are you going to do anything that might surprise your man when you need a hydraulic crane just to turn over in bed?” Boob jobs and face lifts get the thumbs up, as do good sex and a husband who says sorry with an impromptu spending spree at the jewellers. It’s a feel-good message, and when it doesn’t feel good, money makes it better.

GEOFF BULLOCK KNOWS ALL about Hillsong’s brand power and merchandising. He helped build it, even coming up with the name Hillsong more than 17 years ago. He launched the church on the international Christian music scene when he wrote most of the original songs, such as Power of Your Love, Refresh My Heart and Have Faith in God. For the church’s first decade he was Brian Houston’s best friend. For eight years, until a messy split in 1995, he ran the music department, nerve centre of “the brand”. Although his songs are now rarely played at Hillsong, they are popular on the international Christian music scene and Bullock lives off composition royalties paid through APRA (the Australasian Performing Rights Association).

When I meet Bullock at a sunny, beachside terrace cafe he is edgy and constantly apologises – for knocking the table as he crosses his legs, for being unable to eat much of his salad. A short, tidy man with intense blue eyes, he is approaching his 50th birthday. He hasn’t slept much in anticipation of revealing the backstage story behind the “miles of smiles” at Hillsong. “It was very nice being at the top of the tree but it just … ” He pauses, swallows. “This is going to sound dramatic. They stole my soul.”

Bullock’s moment of religious revelation struck in 1978 at Sydney’s Koala Motor Inn, where Houston’s father, Frank, was preaching. Bullock was 23 and had been touring the east coast in a rock’n’roll band, smoking dope and reading Carlos Castaneda’s stories of magic and sorcery. “It was wild,” he recalls of that November night. They sang hymns to a funked-up polka tune played with live piano, drums and bass. In the latest fashion blue safari suit, at the centre of the throng was the bespectacled 56-year-old preacher, Frank Houston, who declared that he used to smoke cigarettes before Jesus saved him. “People were trying to put cigarettes in his mouth,” says Bullock. “He lay down and he spat them out. It was a show of great confidence and charisma.”

Bullock was a needy, naive Sydney North Shore lad, schooled at the Presbyterian Knox Grammar. He believed in a higher being and was willing to try anything to reach Him, including cannabis. “I was absolutely ready for brainwashing. I was absolutely ripe for ‘love bombing’.” So, just two hours after walking into his first evangelical experience, Bullock answered God’s call, and his 21-year-old Anglican girlfriend from Lithgow in country NSW, Janine, followed. Individually, in back rooms, they were counselled. They had been born again and were now committed to Jesus. Satan would fight to get them back, they were warned. “I went in with a confident world view and I came out quite rattled. My whole belief structure had been turned on its head.”

He said goodbye to his rock’n’roll band, Arnhem, and to smoking, drinking and playing the occasional gig in topless bars in Sydney. A church leader came to his house and threw out his extensive collection of music – Joni Mitchell, Pink Floyd, The Beatles. “I had this wonderful group of friends, a great lifestyle, going listening to bands. All of that was viewed as being ‘of the devil’ … I didn’t lose some friends, I lost all my friends.”

Five years later, when 29-year-old Brian Houston set up his own church, Hills Christian Life Centre, in the newly suburban northern hills of outer Sydney, Bullock was a founding member. Young Houston was inspired by Tony Packard, who established a high–profile Holden car dealership in the area at Baulkham Hills with the catchcry “Let me do it right for you”.

Bullock was among the 70 believers at Pastor Brian Houston’s first service on Sunday, August 14, 1983, at Baulkham Hills Public School. From here a Pentecostal phenomenon called Hillsong was born. Bullock sang, played piano and was music frontman on stage for at least three services every Sunday. He recorded the church’s first six albums, three of which went gold, one platinum. He also ran the Bible college curriculum. For this he earned no more than $45,000 a year from the church and gave back a pre-tax tithe of 10 per cent, even when he couldn’t pay his growing family’s bills. Now he is being treated for post-traumatic stress disorder after being expunged from the church he helped build.

Bullock and Janine married in 1980 and had five children within a decade. At the height of his Christian stardom in the late 1980s to mid-1990s, Bullock toured the United States, Britain, Asia and New Zealand with an expanding repertoire of songs. For Sydney Sunday services they rose at 6am to set up the band and audio equipment and then rehearse ahead of morning, afternoon and evening church services. He was too busy to notice he was failing as a husband and father. “We had to put our parenting on hold,” he says.

Bullock began to feel like a real estate agent selling a manufactured ideal of God rather than one he really believed in. “I think Hillsong’s still got it, this feeling that God smiles a bit more when we’re singing our songs, and we’ve got good hairdressers, dentists, cosmetic surgeons. I came to think that the patron saint of Hillsong was Gianni Versace.”

Christmas Eve 1994 was the end for Bullock. He had rehearsed the choir and band to play the standard church repertoire for three Christmas services. Just hours before the first service, Houston discovered Bullock had not rehearsed traditional Christmas carols. “He just tore me to shreds and then left me to do three services,” Bullock says. Houston got his Christmas carols that night, but it finished his partnership with Bullock.

Once Bullock departed, a campaign of whispering about his morality and sexuality filtered throughout the church. When he broke up with Janine a few months later, his subsequent relationship with a married woman (whom he later married) was, he says, twisted to become the reason he had been forced out. At the same time, Houston preached about dark forces intent on undermining the church. “They ran a huge campaign to discredit me,” fumes Bullock.

Janine says she changed her phone number to stop friends from the church calling to tell her Bullock’s departure and their marriage break-up was against God’s will. She once hid in the wardrobe when a woman visited her house a second time. “I couldn’t bear her preaching at me again, telling me that this wasn’t of God.”

Janine still goes to Hillsong once a month, but says she can’t help but be cynical about the facade of spirituality compared with the lack of compassion and understanding she experienced. But, she adds, “there’s some beautiful Christian people who attend there”.

GEOFF BULLOCK ISN’T THE ONLY FOUNDING member of Hillsong to question its methods and ethics. For a decade until 1991, Stephen Grant was paid $100 a week to preach at Hillsong and was dean of the church’s Bible college. He admits that, as an eccentric, he was a strange fit for a fundamentalist church.

Still, Grant came from a wealthy family – he now runs a successful art gallery in Sydney’s Redfern – and had pledged (but never paid) $150,000 to the church’s building fund. He had a beautiful wife and was entertaining at the pulpit. He wore loud, colourful suits and sometimes a red leotard. When he blew on the congregation, the entire room of people would fall over.

But he realised his views diverged from Houston’s when they travelled together to the US in 1988. “In the US, I saw the wholesale commercialisation of born-again Christianity. I went, ‘Nah, truth is becoming a commodity here. It’s not a question of internal search, it’s a question of external commodification.'” But Houston liked what he saw and soon Hillsong’s fundraising became increasingly glitzy.

“I started to question what the bloody hell I was doing,” Grant, 46, reflects. “I was preaching all over the world. But I was getting really depressed.” He had lost both his parents and his marriage was under pressure. Grant subsequently discovered that, in the inner sanctum of the church, his wife was being encouraged to recognise that he did not belong.

His clinical depression was seen by the church as a sign of faltering faith. “I knew there was nothing wrong with my faith, and yet I was told: ‘You are not believing in Jesus enough.'” The Hillsong website backs up Grant’s claim. “Depression,” it declares, “is a supernatural spirit straight from the devil.”

When Grant broke up with his wife and left the church, like Bullock, he had to start life all over again, outside the Hillsong fortress. “People find a lot of healing in the church. I don’t have a problem with that. But … if you are kicked out, you are f—ed.”

The Christian message of the shepherd seeking lambs lost from the flock doesn’t apply at Hillsong, says Grant. “It was forbidden for me to be visited by the members of the church. Damn the lost lambs.” His recovery took five years.

The sentiment is echoed by theology student Penny Davis, who took years to rebuild her self-esteem after a shattering experience at Hillsong, which began in 1995 when she was just 20. Women who don’t fit Bobbie Houston’s mould at Hillsong, or those brave enough to challenge the male hierarchy, are swiftly brought into line, she says. With ambitions to become a pastor, Davis quickly realised she needed to change her wardrobe. “To get anywhere, you had to become a clone,” she quips. “I grew my hair, started wearing make-up and doing all the nice girly things.”

Life became very full, and it was all about church. She moved into a share house with four other young women from Hillsong, volunteered two days a week at church and did paid work with the Hillsong community youth centre three days a week, earning a weekly income of $600, less the 10 per cent salary tithe. “The pressure at Hills to be glamorous and have everything as well – it’s quite difficult on a low income.”

Just months after joining, she slept with a woman from the church – one who later confided about the liaison to a youth leader. Davis was immediately counselled that homosexuality was a sin. “I was just so vulnerable,” Davis says simply. She was assigned a mentor, who claimed she had successfully corrected her own “dysfunctional” sexuality. They spoke at least once a week, when Davis had to confess any lesbian fantasies. The mentor also read Davis’s diaries. After the “problem” persisted, she was put into an 18-week “ex-gay” program called Living Waters, then conducted at Hillsong. Once a week she attended the Living Waters group sessions, where she was told to focus on problems in her past which may have triggered her sexual “dysfunction”. “I was committed to getting these things fixed,” Davis says.

Three years of counselling, sessions with a psychiatrist and group therapies failed, however. Davis resorted to grabbing joyful glances at a video of Sydney’s Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras while her flatmates were out, she laughs. “I started to subconsciously realise that this was not going to change … the shame and guilt were eating me up inside.”

Davis decided her sexuality and spirituality could never be reconciled at Hillsong and made the momentous decision to leave. In response, her Hillsong friends sent a barrage of text messages quoting the Bible on the “sin” of homosexuality. She was kicked out of her house and then her friends froze her out, ignoring her emails and phone calls. “She’s gone, we have restructured, there’s no need to continue communicating with her” was the message sent to her Hillsong friends by church leaders, claims Davis.

Social worker Tanya Levin, who spent her teenage years at Hillsong, says that those who question church policy are first shouted down and later ostracised if they persist. Levin has been commissioned to write a book about growing up in an evangelical church. For research, Levin attended the annual Hillsong women’s conference Colour Your World last March and took offence when poor children in Africa were being marketed for sponsors in the audience on the basis of being cute. “They are actually for life, not just for Christmas,” Levin shouted before walking out of the auditorium.

When she wrote an email the next month to the Houstons asking to meet them on a regular basis in order to gather material for her book, she got this curt response from the general manager, George Aghajanian: “We are aware that during your attendance at our recent Colour Your World Women’s Conference you caused a significant disruption. It is for this reason that we ask you to refrain from attending any future Hillsong church services or events; including accessing Hillsong’s land and premises at any time.” Aghajanian closed by saying the church’s leadership and staff were unable to provide assistance for the book.

When Levin subsequently attended a Sunday evening service, a pastor asked to speak to her outside. When she attempted to get back in to retrieve her bag, two security guards blocked her path, picked her up by the elbows and escorted her off the premises.

Brian Houston refused numerous opportunities to comment for this story, except to say: “More than 19,000 people come to Hillsong Church every weekend and I know that the overwhelming majority of them would testify to a healthy experience for both themselves and their families. They would also speak of the constant positive impact they see on others who are being helped through Hillsong Church and its many community programs.”

There is no doubt that Hillsong – or, closer to the mark, its loyal parishioners – perform many good deeds. The church has a number of charitable arms, including Mercy Ministries, a residence for girls dealing with unplanned pregnancies and eating disorders established five years ago by Hillsong’s Darlene Zschech, the country’s most popular and successful Christian singer. Although recently mired in controversy, the church’s main benevolent arm, Hillsong Emerge, has helped people find jobs and recover from addictions. Hillsong attendees sponsor about 2600 children in Uganda, and generously gave $500,000 to victims of the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami.

But the criticism seems likely to persist as long as Hillsong makes $50 million in revenue, pays no tax and yet spends just $2.67 million on “welfare services”. It is not clear how much Mercy Ministries gets from Hillsong, but its total donations were just $304,840 in 2004. And Hillsong Emerge’s 2004 accounts show it got only $646,666 from the Hillsong Foundation Trust and about that again in government grants.

And Houston has been less than transparent about his own income. Until last year he had failed to declare that he and Bobbie had sold their own personal property holdings to a Hillsong-related entity of which he is a director, Leadership Ministries Incorporated. Bobbie sold a Bondi beachfront apartment on the same block as Jamie Packer’s pad to the not-for-profit LMI for $650,000 in February 2002. The couple also sold a waterfront property on the Hawkesbury River in October 2004 to LMI for $780,000, making $535,000 on their 1998 purchase price. They continue to use both these properties.

LMI is the tax-free entity Hillsong set up as a vehicle to pay the couple’s income. In breach of Office of Fair Trading reporting rules, no financial statements had been lodged since its inception in October 2001. Only after the property deals were uncovered by The Australian were the accounts filed in August last year. When the numbers came in they revealed the golden couple got a measly net income, after donations, of just $21,658 in the year to December 2002, $12,739 in 2003 and $69,041 in 2004.

If this is all there is, then how do the couple and two of their three children pull off a property buying spree worth $1.738 million over 12 months in exclusive beachside Bondi? On August 26, 2003, son Joel, who is a lead singer in the Hillsong band and earns song-writing royalties, bought a $676,000 apartment a few minutes’ walk from the LMI-owned apartment, paying $276,000 up front. That same day Brian and Bobbie paid $650,000 with a collateral mortgage for the apartment next door to Joel’s. Exactly a year later, son Ben borrowed just $90,000 to buy a $412,000 apartment a few streets from the other family holdings.

And questions persist about why it took 30 years for Brian Houston’s father, Frank, to be exposed over a complaint of sexual abuse of a boy in his homeland of New Zealand. Houston says his father was banned from preaching in 2000, when he confessed. But Frank continued to live on the Hillsong account, in church digs, until his death in November 2004.

Houston has hiring and firing rights over the board, and has appointed some influential and rich men to control the church’s empire (there are no women, he says, because one of the board members won’t allow it). The general manager of Hillsong – psychologist George Aghajanian – now oversees a $100 million property portfolio. And Hillsong has its sights on lucrative new markets in Europe – it opened a church in Paris last year and already has churches in London and Kiev.

Geoff Bullock says he can’t help but admire Houston. “He works hard and is gifted. He deserves to be a wealthy man.” But when told how little Houston is claiming as net income Bullock is incredulous – especially knowing the charismatic pastor’s fondness for Valentino suits and first-class plane tickets. And then there are the thousands of dollars in “love offerings” Houston regularly personally pockets for every talk he gives on the international Pentecostal speaking circuit. “Why not just be open about it?” Bullock asks.

As Bullock watches the church lurch from one controversy to the next, he has a sense of foreboding. He muses there is a valid expectation that the church should pour more money into helping others and less into promoting itself and amassing wealth. “In the end, it’s just sad,” he says, looking into his coffee cup. “It does look like it’s approaching a train wreck.”

Jennifer Sexton is a senior writer on The Australian.

Source: Jennifer Sexton, The High Cost of Faith, News Limited, Australia, Published April 29, 2006. [Archived]

 

Why You Need More Money – Introduction

11 Thursday Oct 2012

Posted by Nailed Truth in Books

≈ 32 Comments

Tags

book, Brian, Brian Houston, capitalism, church, finances, greed, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, money, You Need More Money

Brian Houston wrote a provocative book called ‘You Need More Money’ in the year 2000. While he has pulled this book off the shelf, there has been no public notification that he has repented of his false beliefs. While he may show embarrassment that he wrote it – this is not an indicator that he has changed his views. Therefore, we believe it is in our best interest to disclose the information within it’s pages.

Below is the introduction to his book, ‘You Need More Money’:

INTRODUCTION 

“I’m going to get straight to the point: YOU NEED MORE MONEY!

 You may think this provocative, presumptuous, or prophetic coming from a pastor but the fact is that it is true. Whoever you are, you need more money.

 I know that money is a highly sensitive subject for anyone, but in this book I am going to tell you WHY you need more money and secondly HOW you can get more money (even if you won’t admit it, I bet you are interested in the latter). I don’t believe that we should be uncomfortable talking about something that plays such an enormous role in our day-to-day lives.

People love to quote the Bible when it comes to money, wealth and riches (and will sometimes do so out of context), but there is a fascinating verse in the book of Ecclesiastes that says it all:

A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes merry; but money answers everything.

(Ecclesiastes 10:19)

If that’s a shock to see a statement like that in the Bible—check it out for yourself. That is exactly what it says: MONEY ANSWERS EVERYTHING!

Now I believe the Bible has all the answers to life. It contains the wisdom of the ages, eternal principles and practical counsel for any situation. In fact, the more you read the Bible, the more truths you keep discovering. It is a book that I have been reading continually over four decades now … and there is always something fresh and relevant to find every day.

MONEY ANSWERS EVERYTHING

It is really interesting that Solomon, in his renowned wisdom, makes a statement like that. Think about it for a moment. Money certainly provides solutions and has tremendous power to change situations, making a big difference in people’s lives. It’s true – money is inevitably the bottom line of everything.

  • What is the answer to hunger? Money! But you may say “what about food?” But you need money to buy it.
  • What is the short-term solution to poverty? Money!
  • What is the answer to powerlessness in your life? Money! It enables you to be influential.

While money provides many positive solutions, money also has just as many negative responses.

  • How do you feed a heroin addiction? Money!
  • What is listed as one of the greatest causes for marriage failure? Money!

We live in a world where almost everything relates to money, yet money in itself isn’t bad. This book deals with the real issue – people’s attitude and thinking towards money.

If you and I can change our thinking and develop a healthy attitude towards money, I believe we can all walk in the blessing and prosperity that God intends for us. We will never have a problem with money again.

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