When the story refused to die and the media started to report on it, Brian Houston then decided to respond. We called him out for lying as he was implying that Hillsong leadership had no idea how the Naked Cowboy ended up in the production.
Lucky for all the Hillsong apologists, you don’t have to accuse us of claiming that Brian Houston lied. Lentz reveals to us this time that Brian Houston was simply being deceitful.
“What do you want to know about the Naked Cowboy? … We had a vague look-alike. It was a bad idea… But we like to make issues out of stuff so. Uh- it was our youth pastor. Um- it wasn’t his fault.” [See video below]
Good on you Brian for slagging off at people for perpetuating the story and accusing them of peddling “hearsay and rumour.”
You will notice that Carl Lentz took the opportunity to take a swipe at Christians (disciples/followers of Jesus who who have standards). Lentz clearly did not like being held accountable to Jesus’ standards. But who did he blame for his sins?
There are many Christians around the world deeply disturbed by the recent display at the 2016 NYC Color Conference. When Carl says we hate Hillsong, he’s simply showing his ignorance about biblical discernment and the Lord’s call to Christians to practice that discernment.
“Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; Whoever is discerning, let him know them For the ways of the LORD are right, And the righteous will walk in them, But transgressors will stumble in them.” Hosea 14:9
Calling people to repent is an act of great love.The footage linked below is proof of God’s love being demonstrated by these street preachers.
“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.” 1 John 4:8-9
First and foremost, Christians must preach the gospel to these people – faithfully expanding on the gospel clearly found here:
“Now I would remind you, brothers,of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.Last of all, as to one untimely born,he appeared also to me.” 1 Corinthians 15:1-8
If you were one of these people being asked to move on, remind Carl Lentz, the senior pastor of Hillsong New York, of the Hillsong world-wide visual “mission” statement. If asked if you are telling truth – simply state that if you do not do this, Carl Lentz will consider you someone who hates Hillsong. That’s the truth.
Cross = Love… right Hillsong? These preachers preach outside because they LOVE you.
Hillsong informed Chris Rosebrough last year that Carl Lentz was counselling the #BroadwayFiances, Reed Kelly and Josh Canfield.
“Now when I covered the story earlier last week, I made it clear that I had heard through channels that Carl Lentz had said that they had addressed this and that the pastors of Hillsong were “privately counseling” the couple.” [Source]
Clearly Hillsong think they have done a “fantabulous” job with their private counselling sessions (whatever that means). And it’s great to know that Hillsong senior pastor Brian Houston claims to be a traditional church and does not accept same-sex marriage…
Unless he’s lying again.
Now the #BroadwayFiances have some news to share with the world:
Brian Houston Inc. (aka Hillsong) Are The Real Homophobes
The worldwide international corporation known as Hillsong Church has an excellent business model. In 2013, Hillsong Australia alone had nearly 86 million in total revenue, with nearly 39 million in total assets and over 19 million in net assets. Bottom line, Hillsong is banking.
So why is this company so successful financially? Because they deliver a product that their customers want. They produce ear-tickling music that allows fence sitters to pretend to be Christian while not quite giving up their love of the world. They serve drugs so powerful that you can alter your state of mind without taking a single dose of physical substance. And they deliver motivational speeches designed to have people from all walks of life leave feeling like the world revolves around them. In other words, you can live as you please, do as you please, and come to our church on Sundays, and we’ll make sure you’re “personally included and accepted in our community.” [source]
In the business world, it’s well known that in order to keep your business running successfully, you must continue to deliver a product that your customers want. And when your customer base is the world, you must seek to please the world.
This is exactly why Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly, the two sodomites from the television series, Survivor, who are active, participating members of Hillsong Church, can continue to sit in the congregation week after week without being made to feel uncomfortable in their sin. They can do as they please, and Hillsong can pretend to preach the Gospel so they can call themselves a church while refraining from offending any of their customers.
Now this may be a good practice in the business world, but this methodology disqualifies Hillsong from being a biblical church. A biblical church does not exist to serve and please its customers–a biblical church does not have customers. A biblical church consists of born again believers (Eph 1:22-23) and seeks to shepherd the flock by proclaiming the truth at all costs (Acts 20:28). Yet Brian Houston has stated, “I think with the church, the message is sacred, but the methods have to change for the church to stay relevant”–relevant to its customers.
Further, Hillsong’s on Statement of Faith regarding baptism says this,
If you have recently decided to follow Jesus, water baptism is a great next step in your faith journey. As an outward declaration of the decision you have made to surrender your heart to Jesus, it’s a significant moment that will serve as a reminder that the old is gone. God has saved you and will be faithful to continue what He has started in your life.
Yet, Hillsong NYC has taken the step to baptize Reed Kelly.
So how can this organization that claims to be a church baptize an unrepentant sinner, make them an active and participating member of their congregation, and lead them to believe that they are saved, according to their own statement of faith?
Fear.
You see, Hillsong is not a church, it’s a business, and they are in this for the money, and they’re good at it. This has already been shown. But the one thing they fear most is losing a large portion of their customers. And what would happen if Carl Lentz or Brian Houston were to tell these two sodomites that they couldn’t be baptized, and couldn’t be members of the church because they are living in unrepentant sin? Exactly! They would lose customers. Brian Houston put out a list of 30 Rules for Hillsong Australia Preaching and Teaching Team. Some of the disturbing rules put in place by Houston are “leaving people feeling better about themselves than when they came in, and having a message that easily transitions into an altar-call.”
But a real church that exists to shepherd the flock and serve Christ would not be afraid of offending people with the truth. Peter describes Jesus as being offensive to those who do not believe (1 Peter 2:8).Luke 13:3-5 makes it very clear that repentance of sin is a requirement for salvation. But that isn’t Hillsong’s message. Brian Houston, senior executive of Hillsong Corp. has explained their message quite clearly,
I do believe God’s word is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. The writings of the apostle Paul in scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear…So if you are gay, are you welcome at Hillsong Church? Of course! You are welcome to attend, worship with us, and participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community.
This is exactly like I stated before. This is Hillsong pretending to proclaim the Word of God so that they can call themselves a church while at the same time delivering a product that their worldly customer base desires–without offending anyone. This is what is described in James 1:7-8 as a “double-minded man, unstable in all his ways,” and he” ought not to expect that he should receive anything from the Lord.” Brian Houston, Carl Lentz, and all of the leaders of this organization are double-minded man-pleasers who are unfit for the ministry of Jesus Christ. They fear the gay mafia more than they fear God and have caved to them on all levels. They are so afraid that they will lose customers that they would rather tell two hell-bound unrepentant sodomites that they are welcome and accepted into their church and lead them to believe that they are saved, than to proclaim the truth to them, that they are lost, in need of a savior, and must repent of their sin and turn to Christ, lest their “portion be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
That’s real homophobia.
Source: Jeff Maples, Brian Houston Inc. (aka Hillsong) Are The Real Homophobes, Pulpit & Pen, http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/10/20/brian-houston-inc-aka-hillsong-are-the-real-homophobes/, Published 20/10/2015. (Accessed 20/10/2015.)
Hillsong has got some explaining to do over statements about their stance on homosexuality, as they continue to mislead the body of Christ. We have researched Brian Houston and Carl Lentz extensively these past few years and see quite clearly through their obfuscation. Hillsong have used their pulpit to subtly promote gay affirming messages, messages perceived as gay-affirming by gay “Christians” in their own church community! What on earth would make people think they would stop? Why do they continue to be so misleading?
The answer is simple.
Money. Power. Success. Influence.
All this is tied up in their musical monopoly. (Don’t worry, God only receives worship in Spirit and in Truth. He doesn’t receive it from the Hillsong den of thieves.)
So how have people responded to the Hillsong saga? Jeff Maples tackles this. But before we read this, we want to confirm one thing Maples says.
“So, while he says he believes homosexuality to be sinful he’s totally fine with homosexuals being active, vibrant members of the church, so long as they don’t hold a “leadership position.” But church membership is reserved for those who are born-again believers and are expected to act as functioning members of the body of Christ… By default, being a Church member is in and of itself, a leadership position.”
It’s even worse than what Jeff Maples actually says about Hillsong. Hillsong actively affirm that all its members are, and are to be, influential leaders in “the marketplace”. (By the way, this is NAR cult strategic methodology.) All one needs to do is watch a Hillsong Vision Sunday message and Brian Houston reinforces the idea that any Christian who does not follow the Hillsong Vision/Way will not be tolerated or considered to be a Christian by Brian Houston’s definition or standard.
According to Hillsong Reed Kelly and Josh Canfield ARE the new Christian. And if you have a problem with that – you will not be tolerated and you will be hated for believing Jesus Christ and His Word.
We encourage our readers to READ what Jesus said to the Pharisees and how he labels them to be no different to their fathers that murdered the prophets. It was the Pharisees that hated God’s Word and hated Christ because His authority stemmed from God’s Word. Their hatred towards Christ and His Word led them to murdering Jesus Christ and His followers.
This is what we are facing on the horizon by these cults who are becoming more intolerant and hate-filled towards the Christian faith (and have the so-called “Christian” media in their hands). Christ calls them murderers simply because in his teachings, he says that if you harbour hatred in your heart, you are no different in murdering your brother. The continual propaganda from the Hillsong pulpit is to hate and to show pity or intolerance to Christians that are not keeping up with the “spiritual Jones'”. (Just try asking them to compare Hillsong’s teachings to scripture and you’ll be labelled a ‘hater’ or worse.)
Remember what the Broadway couple said about their Hillsong leaders:
“Thankfully we are led by pastors who are grace-filled and committed to continuing to try to discern God’s will on this matter.”
[Want to make your point again here MM that you did on P&P?]
…
Heed Christ’s WARNING. Hillsong will not tolerate you as a Christian. Speak out and rebuke them now before it’s too late.
Jordan Hall writes,
Remember back when Saiko Woods told us he had talked to Lentz personally and he said he “handled this” and Dr. White was assured by Lentz they TOTALLY handled this Biblically and Pulpit & Pen were called h8rs for not believing Lentz because people who preach lies about God typically lie about other stuff, too? Ah, good times. Good times.
Source: Jordan Hall, Pulpit Bunker, FaceBook, https://www.facebook.com/groups/638527459548792/permalink/895248237210045/, Published 20/10/2015. (Accessed 20/10/2015.)
Jeff Maples from Pulpit & Pens writes,
Hillsong Sodomites Now Accommodated in Los Angeles
A couple months ago, a kerfuffle between Hillsong NYC’s Carl Lentz and various blogs outing the church’s mishandling of two celebrity sodomites, known as the “Broadway Boyfriends,” who are members of his church, including one who had served as choir director. The openly gay Hillsong church members, Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly, told the press back in January 2015 that they had “come out” to Hillsong leadership and that “nothing had changed” since in their relationship to the church since then, thus giving the impression that Hillsong NYC and Carl Lentz approved of their lifestyle. Though Lentz denied the accusations of accommodating an openly gay couple in his congregation, this claim wasthoroughly debunked.
Now that the brouhaha has died down, the couple appears to be back it again–only this time, in Los Angeles.
Senior pastor of Hillsong Church had this to say in response to the criticism of allowing the openly gay couple to hold a leadership position at its NYC campus,
I do believe God’s word is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. The writings of the apostle Paul in scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear…So if you are gay, are you welcome at Hillsong Church? Of course! You are welcome to attend, worship with us, and participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community.
So, while he says he believes homosexuality to be sinful he’s totally fine with homosexuals being active, vibrant members of the church, so long as they don’t hold a “leadership position.” But church membership is reserved for those who are born-again believers and are expected to act as functioning members of the body of Christ. Church members are expected to give and to support their local church, and to serve and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By default, being a Church member is in and of itself, a leadership position.
However, Brian Houston is actively encouraging unrepentant sinners, pagans, to participate in worshiping God. This is unbiblical, as Scripture says in John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” But unrepentant sinners do not worship in spirit and in truth. God will reject any form of worship from pagans like Reed Kelly and Josh Canfield. 1 Corinthians 10:20 says that their sacrifices of praise are offered to demons, and not to God. Therefore, why would Houston want to invite them to worship with them? Why, if you truly are a loving, bible-believing pastor, would you want to give them the false assurance that they are personally included and accepted in the body of Christ?
Hillsong LA’s lead pastor, Ben Houston, son of Senior Pastor, Brian Houston, has been largely silent on the issue. But now that Kelly and Canfield are attending his campus, will have anything to say on the subject?
Carl Lentz portrays himself as a Christian pastor. However, people are seeing straight through his sheep skin and are now looking at a man who clearly rejects the teachings of Jesus Christ in regards to homosexuality.
Earlier this year, Chris Rosebrough from Fighting for the Faith helped break the story about the Broadway couple getting engaged towards the beginning of this year (2015). This gay couple were involved in leadership, leading Hillsong bible studies, one also voluntarily leading a Hillsong music choir.
Rosebrough stated on his program,
“Now when I covered the story earlier last week, I made it clear that I had heard through channels that Carl Lentz had said that they had addressed this and that the pastors of Hillsong were “privately counseling” the couple.” [Source]
Well this is what the result of Hillsong counseling looks like.
The results of this Broadway “counseling” resembles how effective Carl Lentz’ “counseling” has been towards Justin Beiber. Clearly the gospel of repentance and the forgiveness of sins is failing to exist in Hillsong. Carl Lentz needs to put aside his barbie doll clothes, repent of his wickedness and start demonstrating he’s really a “Christian” he claims to be.
His refusal to take Christianity seriously as a “man of God” proves that his sheep skin is wearing thin over his lupine fur.
Reed Kelly and Josh Canfield have made it clear they believe Hillsong approves of their homosexual lifestyle. Why else would Hillsong be tagged in their pictures?”
What is also interesting with these Instagram snapshots is their @HillsongLA! #hillsongLA tags. It appears they have been moved from Carl Lentz’ church, which means he no longer has to deal with them. This echoes Frank Houston’s case where Brian Houston hid his father in another church until the controversies surrounding his pedophilia died down.
[Edit 28/08/2015 12:15pm: corrected the article and removed individuals name. We sincerely apologise for publishing this information and will make an effort to make sure information given to us will be scrutinized more thoroughly.]
Jordan Hall rightly calls out the bullying, the lies and disgusting slander Carl Lentz and Brian Houston pulled on Christianity in this below episode of Pulpit&Pen.
Hall played the audio of Brian Houston the previous year, exposing the fact that Houston lied in his recent media statement in regards to the Broadway Couple’s sexual status and Hillsong leadership status. Hall then reads out the Religious News Service story that only acted as a propaganda piece to further Hillsong and allow Carl Lentz to launch a disgraceful, slanderous and malicious attack on Christian churches who do not align themselves to the Hillsong way of doing church (40:00).
Carl Lentz maliciously slandering Christian churches like his leader.
Jordan Hall points out how Carl Lentz falsely accuses the Christian church for killing homosexuals. And how Carl Lentz then uses this disgraceful attack to imply that these churches are not churches at all.
In today’s episode of Pulpit & Pen, JD answers a few sincere questions and then plays audio from Albert Mohler discussing Openly Secular’s role in a football star “coming out of the closet” as an atheist – which his colleague, SEBTS President Danny Akin endorsed. Awkward. Then, JD discusses Hillsong’s “smoking gun” and attempts to sanitize Hillsong’s Downgrade.
As always, you can listen above or download and listen from SermonAudio or iTunes by clicking the links below.
Recently we posted an article explaining how we are concerned that Carl Lentz had made misleading statements to Dr. James White about Hillsong’s position on the acceptance of gay people within the Hillsong Community. Our unease stemmed from a recent episode of The Dividing Line in which Dr. White discusses some email interaction he had with Carl Lentz, and his concerns about a recent statement made by Brian Houston about the inclusion of unrepentant homosexuals as congregation members of Hillsong Church.
In this episode, Dr. White demonstrates that both Brian Houston and Carl Lentz have made contradictory statements about Hillsong’s position (e.g. that gay people are not allowed to be in positions of leadership, yet current news reports show that they are in fact in leadership positions). The transcript of Dr. White’s program is at the end of this piece.
Carl responded to our article with the following comment at ChurchWatch Central:
Hi! I actually don’t have a YouTube channel, so that’s unfortunate here in regards to your attempt to discredit me. Hard for me to upload videos on a site I don’t actually have. Make sure you do just a little bit of homework before you build your attack, might make it a little more believable. James white is a respectable man, who actually called to check facts. What’s funny is he actually talks about people like you the podcast you posted! Hilarious. In your eagneress to tear down, don’t rush the fact checking part. God bless you!
While we make every attempt to be accurate in our articles, we are more than willing to take on board Dr. White’s exhortation to research carefully and check facts. Therefore we accept Carl Lentz’ assurance that he does not have a YouTube channel. [Doing further homework we found that Carl Lentz responded to another person back in June saying he doesn’t have a YouTube account.]
That’s Funny @arielscomedy I don’t have a YouTube channel, a podcast or anything! But I’m glad you were encouraged by it, God bless!
The YouTube channel in question does bear Carl Lentz’ name, and clearly has fooled a number of people who have left comments and even tweeted to Carl how much they appreciated his sermons. Due to this confusion we would like answers from Carl Lentz to the following questions:
1. Since you claim not to own a youtube channel, why are you discrediting Church Watch rather than going after the person (or persons) posting videos under your name?
2. On 25/06/2015 you posted on Twitter “That’s Funny @arielscomedy I don’t have a YouTube channel, a podcast or anything! But I’m glad you were encouraged by it, God bless!” There is someone posting videos in your name and falsely representing you. It is currently the month of August. Why have you not fixed this problem yet?
3. It’s not uncommon for a pastor to give the job of creating a youtube channel and uploading the Pastor’s sermons to someone else. Our homework has always taught us to parse your words. Is it not reasonable to conclude that although you do not have a personal youtube account, someone else you know runs it?
4. Our most important question to you is this: When will you speak or write about your Biblical stance on homosexuality in a clear, unambiguous way that is backed up by Scripture thus proving you believe it by not having unrepentant homosexuals in positions of leadership or in any position within any and all Hillsong churches?
5. We would encourage you to start doing your own homework. Have you investigated what has emerged in the Royal Commission involving Brian Houston and his father’s crimes? Click here for homework.
We apologize for any error made in regards to this matter.
However, what is gravely concerning is that Carl Lentz chose to focus on this error rather than address his own grievous sin in allowing unrepentant homosexuals membership and leadership positions at Hillsong NYC. We are also amazed that he would raise such a minor error, rather than address what came to light in Dr White’s program. That is the blatantly contradictory and deceptive statements currently being made by both Carl and Brian Houston in relation to the context in which unrepentant homosexuals are allowed to participate in the Hillsong Church community, worship and leadership. Hillsong claims to be part of the body of Christ, and claims to hold to the biblical position on marriage and homosexuality. But their practices clearly show that this is not at all true.
This is the real issue: If Hillsong pastors such as Carl and Brian allow homosexual people to be church members, without calling them to repentance, then they are leading people to hell for eternity.
It is grievous to us here at Church Watch Central, and to the body of Christ at large, that Carl and Brian would allow people to remain dead in their trespasses and sins, believing themselves to be reconciled to God when they are not. That is why we are raising these issues and exposing the deception that continues to abound in the Hillsong empire. We care deeply about the souls of these people who are being deceived by Hillsong and its “pastors”.
If at times we err in our zeal to warn others, then we are truly sorry and take to heart Dr. White’s rebuke. But sadly, Carl Lentz has chosen to ignore these issues and instead has just created a distraction from matters far more egregious and soul destroying than whether he does or doesn’t have a YouTube Channel.
Because we cite all of our sources we fail to fall into Dr. James White’s category. However, we would encourage you to start doing your own homework.
We look forward to Carl Lentz’ response.
God Bless.
TRANSCRIPT – Dr James White: Alpha and Omega Ministries || 5 Aug 2015.
Dr James White: “Popped in the channel and there was a discussion about what was going on in Twitter. And what was going on in Twitter was a discussion of Carl Lentz and the Hillsong Church in New York. And of course there’s the stuff of Brian Houston, who is the big Hillsong leader out of Australia. And basically the two sides were talking past each other unfortunately.
Um, what I was concerned about the whole thing was the accuracy of the articles that have been distributed. I started seeing them a few days ago and they came up every once in a while but there was a new spate of them in regards to Carl Lentz and comments about homosexuality.
Now I’m a Reformed Baptist. My ecclesiology is significantly more developed shall we say, and traditional, and historical than Hillsong ecclesiologies, as we are going to see here in a moment.
I am obviously not a fan of ‘seeker sensitivity’ or anything like that at all. The church is the Body of Christ, it is where God is worshiped in Holiness. There is to be church discipline. There is to be a call for Holy living. The church is not to look like the world, act like the world. The world should be very uncomfortable as Paul said, an unbeliever comes in should be convicted by whats going on.
So what really bugged me about the Twitter debate that was going on, was one side was saying, ‘look you need to check the sources. You need to be accurate in the facts that your using. You may be right in your conclusions, you may say you know these folks, they’ve got some serious problems here and we need to be careful about what’s going on here and this seems to be symptomatic of that. That’s one thing, but you have to do so accurately, you’ve got to make sure of your facts, you can’t be making, ‘well it looks like I think they went to a Conference one, this person was there and therefore…’ And-‘ you’ve got all these connections being made.
No one should be surprised that I’ve got a problem with inaccuracy and use of information because, am I not the guy who sits here for half an hour talking about being careful in talking about Muhammad and Niesha, or the history of the Koran or etc, etc, etc?
Yeh. That’s- that’s me. The same guy.
So I would think you would need to be just as careful in talking about these issues – (And what had happened was, I almost talked about this on Monday but we did we did the Radio Fee Geneva, so I couldn’t fit it in) – but I had seen a quote attributed to Carl Lentz, in one of the articles going around saying, ‘ah see Hillsong’s collapsing on homosexuality and here’s how it’s happening’ and so on and so forth and when I read it, it was the standard ‘Jesus never said anything about homosexuality stuff.’ And I’m like, I have decimated that argument so many times on this program and I’ve told people, I’ve said to people that if you hear anybody saying, ‘Jesus never addressed homosexuality’, that person is either deceptive or ignorant or both, but it can’t be neither.
And. So. I don’t always do this, I don’t have a big black book of contacts and email. But some of you will remember that September of last year I think, almost a year ago, Carl Lentz contacted us. I made some comments about something I had seen, it was actually a video as I recall at that point. I played the video and I said, ‘I’ve got a problem with this and here’s why.’ Well somebody sent it to Carl Lentz and he wrote through the contact page.
And so I had an email. We had actually exchanged some emails back and forth. And so I, you know, did the standard search thing and pulled up an email and I said, ‘Yeah! I’m going to ask him,’ because there was no attribution in the article.
He didn’t say where it was from.
It had a ‘he said’ at the end.
Well okay, I don’t trust it. Especially the sources, you know if it’s like Huff Post, CNN and whatever else, ‘he said’ means nothing. They may have strung those words together from three hours worth of conversation, but anyway.
Other host: “That Contact by the way, came through on October 28 2014”.
Dr James White: “Okay. October, so last year.
And so I wrote. And I said- I gave the quote and said, ‘Is this accurate?’
And he wrote back fairly quickly and said, ‘Who is this?’
And I wrote back and said, ‘Well you contacted us last year. Alpha Omega Ministries. We saw this quotation. It’s unattributed. Before I comment on it, I would like to know if you actually said this’.
And he was very appreciative of that and said, ‘I’m taking my girls to their dance lessons [or whatever it was], I’ll get back to you,’ and said, ‘I’ll get back to you faster than that’. And so he did. And we’ve gone back and forth.
And in fact I have here- this is from yesterday- you know- I- we went back and forth and I said, ‘Can I quote you as saying- ‘quote’ (and this is a quote from him):
‘What Jesus often did explicitly outline as you well know, is marriage between a man and a woman. I made that point clearly in an interview and that was edited out. Our church has never wavered, ever on our clear stance on what is Biblical marriage or Biblical sexuality for that matter.’
Alright? Now we’ve continued [inaudible] going back and forth cause I found some more quotes.
And he said, ‘Look I would not say it the way that I said it. You know this was CNN.’ And I’m like, ‘Yeah! I know CNN now! Been there done that! Got the t-shirt. And man, you’ve got a- you’ve got to go straight for the heart, if your on CNN. You can not try to make yourself look nice to these folks, it’s not possible. You’ve got to go straight to it and press it.
And- so we’ve gone back and forth.
I basically said, ‘look Jesus did address this issue when He used the term porneia. There is no-one that I have ever found anywhere- I don’t care if it’s Boswell, [inaudible names], it doesn’t matter who it is, Vines, I’ve never found anyone who’s even started to make a meaningful argument- that in the context of second temple Judaism, in the context of the Gospel writers, that porneia would not have included homosexuality. I’ve never seen anyone even try to argue it because anybody who knows anything about that time period, knows that porneia when it was written by Paul, when it was written by Matthew, was written by Mark, included homosexuality. There’s no question about it! None!
So when someone says, ‘Jesus never addressed this issue’, they’re just ignorant, they just don’t know what they’re talking about.
And Carl says, ‘I know that. I agree. It was a combination of my not speaking clearly enough and them not following up with what I said afterwards where I said those things.’
So, you know. Okay I hear you. Got it. Alright.
I tried to be- if I’m going to criticise, I want to try to be fair, and I want to try to be accurate. And the fact is, there are sources amongst conservative Christians that are trusted that shouldn’t be. We re-post stuff that isn’t always overally accurate.
And my concern was exactly that. My concern was exactly that. Because, these are important issues. And when we are not- when we don’t do our homework and we just go with the twelve-gate shotgun blast from the start, we may think we are doing the Elijah thing. But in reality we are only hurting ourselves. Because then people can just focus on that and not focus upon what the real issue is.”
Now I’m not saying that even when you focus upon the real issue that people are necessary, sadly going to listen to what you have to say but it’s worth the shot.
But then in the middle of all of this, Brian Houston who speaks more for Hillsong than Carl Lentz does, puts out- I think yesterday- […] an article called ‘Do I love gay people?’.
[Quoting Brian Houston’s statement] ‘Because I also live by my own convictions, hold to traditional Christian thought on lifestyles and gay marriage…’. Now could I just say, if we, if we have a passionate love for God’s truth, if we really believe that it is divine truth, (that God has made us in a certain way, that we have the owner’s manual, that the Creator has specific purposes and therefore our lives would be experienced, there’s basics here, you know if you don’t get the basic’s right there’s not going to be anything up the road), if we really believe that, it’s going to influence how we speak.
And it seems to me, that we need to really be putting some thought into how we can speak with more clarity about these subjects. It sounds like, well yeh I’ve got my convictions, I do the traditional Christian you know. It’s like we’ve already been beaten into the ‘I’m sorry don’t through things at me’, rather than ‘I believe in actual marriage and I believe that this is divine truth and this is vitally important and this is exciting and it’s worth living for’. There’s a big difference between those two, big difference. But anyways.
‘…The writings of the apostle Paul in scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear…’ Good to hear! Lot’s of folks are telling us the opposite of that. Just the opposite of that.
‘…as I have mentioned in previous public statements. Hillsong Church welcomes ALL people but does not affirm all lifestyles. Put clearly, we do not affirm a gay lifestyle and because of this we do not knowingly have actively gay people-‘ (now here’s where I’m confused), ‘we do not knowingly have actively gay people in positions of leadership, either paid or unpaid.’
Foul, blow the whistle, what?!
See here’s where ecclesiology comes into view. Here’s where your doctrines of church comes into view.
Because later on, here’s what it says later on, ‘… so if your a gay are you welcome at Hillsong Church? Of course! You are welcome to attend, worship with us, and participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community. But (this is where it gets vexing), can you take an active leadership role? No. This won’t make everyone happy and to some, this stance may even be seen as hypocritical. We are a gay welcoming church but we are not a church that affirms a gay lifestyle…’
Excuse me! Time out! The poor little Reformed Baptist is confused. [laughs]
Yeh, um, so do you have a church membership role? Do you have a Statement of faith? How can you be a member of the congregation, a part of the community, while living a lifestyle that the church says is sinful and just won’t allow into leadership, but will allow in the church? Is that what I’m reading?
If it is, here’s where ecclesiology comes into it, because you see, there are some people who view church incrementally. You bring people in. We’re inclusive. Open. We’re loving. You bring people in. And then over time you sort of hope that they are going to start seeing that selling those drugs is a bad thing, the gang-banging is a bad thing. You might loose a few members in the process. You know before they really get that idea, but hey you know. It’s this inclusive, incremental thing slowly get them, you know.
The church is called holy!
It’s made up of Saints!
I mean again, 1 Corinthians verse 5: “you have a man who’s had his own father’s wife.” It’s incest. You should have known better. It’s right there in Leviticus 18. CAST HIM OUT! Right?
So do you bring people into the congregation in incestuous relationships? Hey your part of the community, have some Lord’s supper, hey you know. But you can’t be in leadership until you stop that incestuous stuff. What??
Ok maybe this is just a really, really badly written thing and I’m completely missing. But it seems to me that um we have a really fundamental problem here in um- ‘worship with us.’
Well I thought we were to worship in holiness and that there was to be repentance. Doesn’t the church gather, repentance, proclamation of God’d truth, brings repentance and holiness so that we can worship in spirit and in truth? Do we want people who are unrepentant? Isn’t the constant prayer, ‘may your words shine into our hearts to show us what we need to repent of?’
So if you don’t tell people what you stand for then how can there be any meaningful unity in worship? I’m completely lost at this point. I really am. I don’t get it.
So, ‘worship with us and participate as a congregation member’, what does that mean? Sing? partake of the Lord’s supper? Are unrepentant, practicing homosexuals allowed to partake of the Lord’s supper in Hillsong Church? Baahhh but you can’t be a leader! So what? Who cares?
I think leadership is drawn out of the congregation anyways. I mean if you start making up rules like this to where- have we not seen this in so many of the mainline denominations?You know whats the big thing-? You know, all these half way measures where, ‘Well, you know as long as your a celibate homosexual, then you can be a Bishop.’ And how long did that last? You know before, ‘well we can’t do that, they have to be able to express their love and blah blah blah blah’.
You’re creating a Clergy Laity distinction that New Testament knows nothing about here in [glitch] moral standard here.
No, the standard for membership in the church is called regeneration, ah isn’t it? Repentance, baptism you know that stuff. So are these folks baptized? Will you baptize unrepentant practicing homosexuals? How else do you become a member of the church? Or is there no membership role at all? I mean that wouldn’t surprise me because that’s the Calvary Chapel model. The Calvary Chapel model’s no membership, that’s why you have no church discipline. I’m not sure how your suppose to shepherd the sheep that you don’t know who are in your flock, but there you go. Umm… wow.
This is what happens when you don’t have a Statement of faith, when you don’t have a sound ecclesiology. It’s um- it’s a mess.
So I don’t get it. I don’t get how you can say on the one side one thing and then on the other side you turn around and your saying, ‘Hey! You know, you’re welcome to come to Hillsong church, participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community, only thing you can’t do is be a leader.’
Would that count for shacking up with your girlfriend or girlfriends, boyfriends, girlfriends whatever? So the only difference between the people of the church and leaders is that leaders actually have to be repentant, people of the church don’t? I don’t get it, I don’t get it, but there you go. There you go. Great confusion. […]
Host voice: ‘The next step in being a member as I understand it is, you have a say in calling of leadership’.
Dr James White: ‘Maybe’.
Other host: ‘Would they be allowed to vote for leadership and calling of a Pastor’?
Dr James White: ‘I don’t know. I do not know, I do not know. But there you go’.
So what I’m calling for. Katie Hall said to me, ‘I don’t understand why all these reformed people are defending Hillsong.’ Katie, it’s not a matter of defending Hillsong. It’s a matter of saying you need to be accurate in your criticisms for them to be lasting and meaningful criticism, that’s the point.
We can see the problem but isn’t it interesting that on both this and the prior situation, who got to actual heart of the matter by being careful about the criticism [raises hands]. That’s my point. That’s my point. Got to be careful. You’ve got to do your homework. That’s my point.’
“For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men.” 1Corinthians 3:19-21a
Not only did we catch Brian Houston lying again in his media statement,
Not Your Granddad’s Church: Hillsong Church Mixes Sermons With Rock Concerts
Every Sunday, thousands of people gather in New York City to get in line for a church service that is full of hand-raising, heart-thumping, hipster-style Christianity.
That is Hillsong Church. Their followers, which include celebrities like Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant, are mostly 20-somethings, many of whom grew up in church, but are drawn to Hillsong’s style and substance. In this “come as you are” congregation, tattoos and leather jackets are welcome for a 90-minute experience that’s part rock concert and part gospel.
The pastor leading Hillsong New York is 36-year-old Carl Lentz, who comes with Brad Pitt looks and Billy Graham theology, and has enough tattoos to make a rapper blush. He is even the New York Knicks’ official chaplain on the road.
“We aren’t trying to have this cool trendy packed church,” Lentz said. “The story is not the clothes people wear. It’s the lives they lead.”
In short, this is not your granddaddy’s church.
Hillsong New York was started four years ago and is now the church’s United States flagship. They host close to 8,000 people over six Sunday services in a rented New York City theater, but in years past, Hillsong has met in nightclubs.
With very few paid staff, the church relys on an army of 20-something-aged volunteers. Some members said Hillsong helped them overcome addiction or reconnect with their faith. Others said the weekday community service work and small group meetings provided both a connection and purpose.
“This generation has seen multiple wars, seen things no one expected,” Lentz said. “It seems like a pretty tumultuous time in culture, and I think the response to that has been the really shallow world of social media. A real smoke and mirrors way of living … so you come into church and there is a realness to it.”
Hillsong Church was started in Sydney, Australia, 30 years ago by Pastor Brian Houston, and has grown into a worldwide Christian phenomenon, with satellite outposts across the globe from London and Paris to Kiev and Cape Town.
“If you walked into all of them you would see a similar demographic of people,” Houston said. “You could close your eyes and think I am in any one of our Hillsong churches anywhere in the world.”
For many in their flock, the church’s Christian rock music group, Hillsong United, is a huge draw to come to services.
“Definitely the initial draw for many, many people,” Houston said. “We started singing and writing songs in our church and we were surprised when they started singing them in other churches in Australia and then suddenly for those songs to be sung all around the world like they are now… it’s something that God has given us as an arrow to a bigger message.”
Hillsong United is one of the hottest bands on Earth. With hits like “Oceans,” and “Break Free” Hillsong United has sold over 16 million albums worldwide, playing to packed venues across the globe and is now nominated for its first American Music Award this year.
Joel Houston, the son of Pastor Brian Houston, is co-lead pastor in New York but also guides Hillsong United.
“Music has the incredible ability to break down walls and to reach people’s hearts. It was given to us by God for the very purpose of worship,” he said.
But when asked how vital the money is that the music brings into the church, which is a non-profit, Brian Houston didn’t give a straight answer.
“To be honest I really genuinely can’t answer the exact amount [of annual revenue],” he said. “Of course we are a non-profit so all of the finances come into the non-profit and are used for the ministry.
Like many mega churches, Hillsong is shy about discussing their finances and how much money they bring in. At the service “Nightline” attended in New York, they asked us not to film the offertory.
“The fact that these lights are on, these chairs are here, it’s because single mom’s young couples, young people, single people, older couples, believe in the cause,” Lentz said. “So the collective sacrifice of many is what you see in our church.”
And also like many mega-churches, Hillsong has not escaped scandal. Fifteen years ago, Brian Houston discovered that his father, who was also a pastor, was being accused of sexually assaulting a child.
“We received a complaint that my father had abused children, males, and you can imagine that was the hardest day of my life to find out that my hero was a pedaphile,” Houston said.
As a leader for his denomination, Houston said he removed his father from the ministry immediately. He said he later came under attack for not alerting the police. Houston’s father died in 2004.
Brian Houston recently testified before an Australian commission investigating institutional sexual assault to try to prevent it from happening.
“It brings all of that rawness back to the surface pretty quick,” he said. “Just accepting that my father has devastated and destroyed the lives of children is just a really hard thing to accept.”
While Hillsong seems like a “hip and modern” church, some of its beliefs are quite Christian conservative. One area critics, both liberal and conservative, have seized upon is the church’s stance on social issues like homosexuality.
“We see it as a conversation,” Brian Houston said. “It’s quite clear in the New Testament the apostle Paul describes homosexuality as a sin and I can’t un-write the bible… but on the other hand we are not a church that can just make big blanket sweeping statements that dismiss people.”
When asked what the pastor would say if a gay couple walked into Hillsong, Houston said, “the short answer is I think all of us need to be changing. So that’s what serving Jesus does.”
“We would never be the kind of church who when people joined the choir asked them are you heterosexual? Are you homosexual? We will never be that kind of church,” he added. “I think it was Billy Graham who said it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge and it’s our job to love.”
Another part of Hillsong’s job, as Pastor Brian sees it, is growth. His son Ben Houston just opened Hillsong Los Angeles, and already long lines are forming for Sunday services they hold in a rent theater on Sunday.
“You don’t have to sell a good party,” Lentz said.
Does Dr. Brown really want to defend Hillsong cult leaders?
Hillsong, Homosexuality, Internet Rumors and Spiritual Clarity
Brian Houston’s answer about gay members at Hillsong was a little fuzzy. (BrianHouston.com)
There’s a lot we can learn from this week’s viral internet accusation that Carl Lentz, pastor of Hillsong NYC, allowed an openly homosexual couple to participate in and help lead a church choir.
The report was posted on Saturday, and by the next day, everywhere I turned, people were asking, “Is this true?” (My ministry team then reached out to Hillsong NYC for clarification.)
Others, not waiting for verification, believed the worst and went on the attack, not just blasting Hillsong in New York City but also across the globe.
On Wednesday, Brian Houston, leader of Hillsong and Carl Lentz’s pastor, issued two statements.
In the first statement, he affirmed that Hillsong held to the clear scriptural teaching on the subject of homosexuality and that marriage was the union of a man and woman, also stating that while gays were loved and welcomed in his church, practicing homosexuals could not participate in any leadership or ministry role.
In the second statement, he categorically denied the Internet rumors, saying that the church was completely surprised when they learned about this couple being in a homosexual relationship and that to his knowledge, they had not since been involved in any ministry or leadership role in the church. He then reaffirmed his love for them and stated that they, like the rest of us, were on a journey.
Pastor Lentz affirmed both of these statements on Twitter, and I immediately posted them as widely as I could, with appreciation to Pastor Houston for addressing these issues publicly.
But there are two obvious lessons from this week’s events.
First, as Christians, we are often all too quick to believe and then repeat a rumor rather than hoping for the best and waiting until the evidence is in. Why are we so quick to attack and accuse, especially when we don’t even know if the stories are true? Is this a demonstration of love?
How would we feel if the same was done to us—to our families, to our congregations, to our reputations—and people we didn’t even know helped spread lies about us, lies that can color people’s thinking for years to come?
With the speed with which things fly around the world today via the Internet, and with the difficulty of undoing something once it’s been done, we had better be sure that we have our facts in order and our attitudes right before making a public declaration or sharing our opinion (if there’s even a need for us to do either).
I have often been burdened to address issues in writing or on radio, and I always do my best to get all the facts in order, also trying to reach out privately whenever possible before addressing things publicly.
But earlier this year I had to apologize publicly to a national leader for relying on an article that grouped his quotes together as if they came from the same message, giving a misleading impression (even though the quotes were accurate and of real concern).
So what I write here, I write for myself as well as for others. Let’s be sure we have our facts in order before coming to any conclusions.
The second lesson is that it’s essential that Christian leaders speak clearly on the controversial doctrinal and moral issues of the day. It is possible (and essential) to have both compassion and clarity.
To use Paul’s words (from a very different context), “Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air” (1 Cor. 14:7-9).
I recently listened to a five-minute interview with one of America’s most famous pastors in which he was gently pressed for clarity on his views on homosexuality and the church, and his answers could hardly have been more fuzzy.
And that’s part of the problem with the accusation against Hillsong NYC: Pastor Lentz had failed to speak clearly to the issue at least twice last year, both on network TV and on the Huffington Post online.
In fact, as I watched the Huffington Postinterview, trying to put the best construction on it and rooting for Pastor Lentz, I said to myself, “If I was this interviewer, I would absolutely believe that homosexual couples would be welcomed without restriction into the life and ministry of his church.”
That’s why I reached out to Pastor Lentz last year as well, offering help not condemnation, believing that God is using him to reach NYers with the Good News of the gospel.
The question is: Why can’t we be clear from the start? Why say things that avoid direct answers and instead lead to confusion?
I fully understand the need not to get trapped by the secular media—I’ve been in the hot seat enough times to know the drill—and I commend Christian leaders who will say what they feel is important rather than play along with the agenda of a hostile interviewer. (For Pastor Houston addressing this when it comes to “gay marriage,” go here.)
Yet there’s such a thing as speaking the truth with wisdom and in love, and throughout Scripture, honest, open rebuke is seen as a sign of love.
Unfortunately, fair questions are now being asked concerning Pastor Houston’s first statement issued on Wednesday, where he said, “So if you are gay, are you welcome at Hillsong Church? Of course! You are welcome to attend, worship with us, and participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community. But (this is where it gets vexing), can you take an active leadership role? No.”
What exactly does this mean? Is he speaking about someone who is same-sex attracted but rejects those attractions and is living a holy life before the Lord? Or is he speaking about a practicing homosexual? If so, on what basis can he or she “participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community”?
Would Pastor Houston say the same thing about a couple living together out of wedlock? Would he say the same thing about a non-repentant alcoholic? If so, what of Paul’s clear teaching in 1 Corinthians 5 about how to deal with professing Christians who will not repent?
I am cheering on Pastor Houston and Pastor Lentz, praying that they will make Jesus known even more in Australia and New York City and the nations, and like millions of others, I have been personally blessed by Hillsong’s many wonderful worship songs.
That’s why I urge my brothers and colleagues to speak with a clear, unambiguous and scripturally sound voice, not just in church settings but before the secular media as well.
If we are to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world—or, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “the moral conscience” of the society—we cannot lose our saltiness and we must shine brightly and without shame, in deed and in word.
The same world that hates us is actually depending on us.
Hillsong Church Watch 