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Hillsong grooming its members to embrace Queerstianity? (Part 3)

07 Wednesday May 2014

Posted by in Associations, Brian Houston's Beliefs

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Queerstianity: A group of people that supposedly push no political or religious agenda but “share” their philosophy of tolerance and love onto others.”
(Source: Urban Dictionary [slightly edited])

Brian Houston of Hillsong Church is slowly grooming his congregation to embrace the false “Gay Christianity” doctrine. To understand why this doctrine is such a blatant attack on the Christian faith please read our article below. We are aware how sensitive this Christian issue is and wish to deal with it mindfully.

Hillsong grooming its members to embrace Gay Christianity (Part 1)

To understand the below article, we would advise you to become familiar with Part 2.

Hillsong grooming its members to embrace Queerstianity (Part 2)

In Part 2, Ben Gresham taught us that when he met with Houston, Houston was committed to have “discussions with other pastors (such as Rob Buckingham of Bayside Church, Melbourne)” over sexual orientation. Who is Rob Buckingham of Bayside “Church”?

GroupSects reports,

Christian Sh*tty Church censors Pastor Rob Buckingham

Pastor Rob Buckingham

Andrew Strom blogs…

“It all started with a 2009 blog post by Rob Buckingham, pastor of a large Pentecostal megachurch called ‘Bayside’ in Melbourne, Australia. His blog post was entitled, “Is Jesus Anti-Gay?” and made the case for ‘acceptance’ being the true Christian attitude toward Homosexuals. Now bear in mind that this is not some “liberal” church or ‘liberal’ congregation here. This fellowship is part of the “C3″ (Christian City Church) denomination – one of the largest mainstream Pentecostal groups in Australia. That is why the Gay community was so delighted by it all.

In the ‘comments’ section after his article, Rob Buckingham made his views even clearer: “As a Christian, and pastor of a church, I sometimes find the attitudes of fellow Christians embarrassing. We have a number of gay men and women in our church and they are accepted just the way they are – just like everyone else is.” So you are no longer willing to preach what Jesus preached, Rob? “GO and SIN NO MORE.”

Rob Buckingham later went on to preach a message at Bayside that was entitled, “Real Christianity is Accepting”. (You can find it on Youtube). In it the pastor overturned the usual understanding of the ‘Sodom & Gomorrah’ story and advocated “Christian acceptance” of homosexuals. The Pentecostal congregation literally gave him a standing ovation at the end of his sermon.

This message was heralded by the Gay press as a huge leap forward inside the Pentecostal movement. One Gay activist called it, ‘The Bayside Breakthrough’. The Star Online trumpeted, “Church Advocates for Gay Acceptance… minister at Melbourne´s Pentecostal Bayside Church received a standing ovation earlier this month for preaching just that in a special sermon on how the church should embrace GLBT [Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgender] people.”

The official Bayside website also published the following statement: “Bayside Church welcomes GLBT people to find God´s love and grace and to worship Him freely within our community.”

Even though this whole affair became very well-known, the leadership of the C3 (Christian City Church) movement apparently “declined to comment” on it – even though the C3 movement is led by Phil Pringle, a very well-known preacher in Australia. It seems Bayside is still welcome to be part of ‘C3′ and Rob Buckingham remains a high-profile pastor in the movement. All of his blog posts on this subject are still proudly featured on the church website. Which surely leads one to believe that Rob Buckingham’s views must not be too different from the overall church’s views on this subject. Isn’t that reasonable to assume, since they have said nothing to the contrary? I wonder if Australian Pentecostals are aware that this huge compromise is now taking place under their own banner?

And so, Homosexual Acceptance is free to enter into the Pentecostal movement by the back door, since leaders no longer dare to actually make a stand on the issue. Please write to Phil Pringle and the C3 movement if you would like to know why they have been so “silent” about this – even to their own members. Here is the email to write to-  info@myc3church.net

Isn’t it sad that “political correctness” is now overtaking even the Pentecostal churches worldwide? Perhaps the fruit of years of no real ‘Repentance’ being preached? And I have recently heard of large Baptist churches in Australia also starting to head in the same direction. Who will stand and defend the truth?”

From http://www.revivalschool.com/pentecostals-accept-gays-it-begins-andrew-strom/

Andrew Storm further blogs…

“Just for the record, my big concern in this was that homosexuals were being welcomed right into actual Pentecostal ‘fellowship’ – with no sign that it was being called “sin” at all. In fact, complete “acceptance” of homosexuals ‘just as they are’. I personally have no problem with reaching out in love toward homosexual people for the sake of their salvation and cleansing through Jesus. I do believe in compassion for the sinner. But this is very different. This is total “acceptance” of Homosexuals into actual Pentecostal fellowship. Where is the repentance? Where is the stand on what God calls “SIN”? That was my big concern.

I am delighted to say that the overall C3 church has now issued a firm response concerning this issue. However, there are still real question marks, as we shall see. But first – their response. Here it is-

“Dear ********

Thank you for your email and expression of your concerns regarding this issue. We wanted you to know our position on this matter so there is no confusion regarding our beliefs. Below is a short statement that we trust will help clarify our stance.

C3 Churches hold to the historic Judeo-Christian view of sexual union being between a man and a woman in marriage. We do not recognise the practice of homosexuality as biblically valid for a follower of Christ, nor do we promote it. We do however promote and expect God’s great love and grace to be shown to all, regardless of their orientation.

Also we wanted you to know that Ps Buckingham has removed his blog at our request as it does not reflect our beliefs.

Kind Regards, C3 Church Global”

ANDREW AGAIN: An excellent response, and I am very happy that the C3 movement has been so clear about it. However, it is not actually true that Rob Buckingham has removed his blog post. In fact, the worst two are still up, including – “Is Jesus Anti-Gay?” and ‘The Acceptance Controversy’. And his comment is still there for all to see- “As a Christian, and pastor of a church, I sometimes find the attitudes of fellow Christians embarrassing. We have a number of gay men and women in our church and they are accepted just the way they are – just like everyone else is.”

Here is the link so you can see for yourself-http://www.baysidechurch.com.au/content/view/231/243/

The C3 statement said that Rob Buckingham had already removed the blog post concerned. But actually none of them have been removed yet at all. And Bayside’s Youtube video – “Real Christianity is Accepting” is also still up for all the world to see.

And anyway, even if they do take them down at some point, does that mean Rob Buckingham’s attitude has truly changed? He is the pastor of thousands of C3 people, after all.

If you want to clarify if and when any of this stuff will be removed, you can contact C3 –  info@myc3church.net

And in the meantime, I have received a great deal of confirmation that mainstream Baptist churches in both New Zealand and Australia are also preaching or practising “Homosexual Acceptance” and no longer treating it as ‘sin’. This is a crisis. The walls are down. Is it already too late?

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

Yours in Christ – Andrew Strom ( prophetic@revivalschool.com )”

From http://www.revivalschool.com/c3-churches-respond-gay-issue-by-a-strom/

Pastor Rob Buckingham’s blog post ‘Is Jesus anti-gay?’ as it appears today after being censored by Christian Shitty Church…

“You are not authorised to view this resource.
You need to login.”

From http://www.baysidechurch.com.au/content/view/231/243/

Through the magic of the internet archive, here is Pastor Rob Buckingham’s ‘Is Jesus anti-gay?’ blog post before it was censored by Christian Shitty Church…

Flashback

“So often Christianity is linked with being right wing, anti-gay, anti-Obama, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel.

Now I have strong views on all of these topics, but sometimes our strong views need to be kept to ourselves in order to be effective in reaching out to others. For example, sending out an anti-gay message does nothing to reach gay people for Jesus.  All it does is ostracize them from the church and force them to find refuge amongst their own community instead of finding love, acceptance and forgiveness in the community of Christ.

The apostle Paul discusses this in Romans 2 where he rebukes judgmental people and reminds them that it is God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, which ultimately leads people back to God.

WWJD?  What would Jesus do?  A simple look at the gospels reveals the answer to this question.  The only people Jesus judged were the rightwing, religious fundamentalists who thought they had it all together and were the sole bearers of religious truth (see Matthew 23). These people were harsh in their judgment of others; Jesus was harsh in His judgment of them.

But to others, the marginalized and disenfranchised, Jesus offered a gracious and loving view of God.  He said nothing about homosexuality (except some words in Matthew 19:11-12 that could be an insight into Jesus’ views of those with same-sex attractions).  He had plenty to say about a woman with a dubious past who let her hair down (literally) and anointed him with perfume. When criticized by the religious, Jesus defended her and established a memorial in her honor.

He saved a woman who was divorced and remarried five times and living in a defacto relationship with someone else’s husband.  He forgave a woman, caught in the act of adultery, that the religious fundamentalists wanted to stone to death. You get the picture. All these people had their lives (and behavior) changed by the gracious acceptance of Jesus, not His harsh criticism and condemnation.

WWJD is a good question that we all need to ask.  The only problem is when some people ask themselves the question they come up with the wrong answer and become cruel critics instead of those who demonstrate the kindness, tolerance and patience of God.  One repels, the other attracts. WWYD? What will you do?”

From http://web.archive.org/web/20120324211254/http://www.baysidechurch.com.au/content/view/231/243/

Source: By Groupsects, Christian Sh*tty Church censors Pastor Rob Buckingham, Group Sects, 
http://groupsects.wordpress.com/2013/03/30/christian-shtty-church-censors-pastor-rob-buckingham/, Published 30/03/2013. (Accessed 02/10/2013.)

Strange Fire: How Much Will This Conference Impact Christianity?

21 Friday Jun 2013

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Recently, Phil Johnson wrote the following article:

NOT LAUGHING NOW
…

Rodney Howard-Browne, self-styled “Holy Ghost Bartender,” has taken notice of the Strange Fire conference sponsored by Grace to You (October 16-18, 2013). He seems unnerved by the prospect that twenty-first-century charismatic phenomena are going to be examined in light of Scripture. Howard-Browne’s trademark giddiness has gone missing. Recently, he wrote this stream-of-consciousness rant on his Facebook page:

There is coming a massive attack on the Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement by a group of individuals that don’t believe in the power of the Holy Spirit today – these men do not believe in speaking in tongues or the gifts of the spirit – they think that because of excesses in the church that they have a right to write off the fastest growing sector of Christianity – over 800 million in the earth today – that would be as bad as writing Jesus off because of one of the 12 was Judas Iscariot – if these individuals just adopted Gamaliel’s advice of Acts 5:38-39 that would be fine however they have no fear of God and are in grave danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost – they think that because the movement has had scandals that have been publicised that this gives them leeway to do what they are doing – however the only reason why it gets the attention is because these individuals are on TV – everywhere I travel I hear of scandals outside of the Pentecostal charismatic realm but these are never publicised because no one knows them – they are calling their exposé strange fire however you better have the alternative if you are going to criticise something as counterfeit you have to produce the real – or else you had better shut up! The only ones who have the right to bring correction are the ones inside the camp not outside!

All the standard charismatic arguments are summarized there: He says critics of modern charismatic claims are unspiritual people motivated only by rank unbelief. He insists the weight of sheer numbers validates the modern charismatic movement (yet the high percentage of scandalous frauds, philanderers, and false teachers spawned by the movement means nothing). He emphatically declares that those outside the movement are not entitled to criticize charismatic abuses. And of course he includes the killer argument: The critics are people who “have no fear of God and are in grave danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.”

In reality, those who tout false prophecies, obscene bodily gyrations, and drunken behavior as gifts of the Holy Spirit are the ones blaspheming Him. In fact, no one is more notorious for that than Rodney Howard-Browne himself. For him to decry blasphemy and pretend to know anything about the fear of God is the very height of arrogant irony.

If you think that sounds unduly harsh, watch this video of a typical Rodney Howard-Browne “ministry” binge:

Source: Phil Johnson, Not Laughing Now, http://www.gty.org/blog/B130610, 10/06/2013. (Accessed 19/06/2013.)

What was Rodney Howard-Browne reacting against?

In October 2013, John MacArthur will be putting on a conference called ‘Strange Fire’. This event will explore what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and how that reflects the spirit presented within the charismatic movement.

The ‘Strange Fire’ conference page has this to say about the event,

Overview

The sons of Aaron…offered strange fire before the LORD…and fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them.
—Leviticus 10:1–2

The Lord calls His people to honor Him, to treat Him as holy. Leviticus 10 pictures the consequences of not doing so—of offering to Him strange fire.

For the last hundred years, the charismatic movement has been offering a strange fire of sorts to the third Person of the Godhead—the Holy Spirit. And evangelical churches have chosen to be silent or indifferent on the matter. This hasn’t served the church or the Spirit of the church with honor.

So what should be our response?

Strange Fire is a conference that will set forth what the Bible really says about the Holy Spirit, and how that squares with the charismatic movement. We’re going to address in a biblical, straightforward manner what many today see as a peripheral issue. On the contrary, your view of the Holy Spirit influences your relationship with God, your personal holiness, and your commitment to the church and evangelism.

We want you to join us for Strange Fire. It really is for everyone—especially if you’re working through these issues with a friend, your family, or your church. Space is limited, register today.

  • Strange Fire is a Truth Matters conference, sponsored by Grace to You.
  • The conference will be held at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California.

Source: Overview, Strange Fire, http://www.tmstrangefire.org/. (Accessed 19/06/2013.)

If you would like to examine Rodney Howard-Browne’s credentials, you can read what we discovered about them here:

Congo Line Of Unqualified Ministers Endorsed By Phil Pringle

The Christian Post reports John MacArthur saying,

“Worship is a very serious matter. How you come before a Holy God is the most important thing you will ever do.”
– Nicola Menzie, Christian Post, John MacArthur Takes on Charismatic Movement With ‘Strange Fire’ Conference, http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-macarthur-takes-on-charismatic-movement-with-strange-fire-conference-97968/, 2:13pm, 15/06/2013. (Accessed 20/06/2013.)

In light of the issues being addressed at John Macarthur’s upcoming “Strange Fire” Conference, do churches like C3/Hillsong honor the Holy Spirit or blaspheme Him?

Do Hillsong & C3 Churches Know What The Role Of A Pastor Is? Do You?

01 Friday Mar 2013

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The famous preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

“A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats.”

Do you think that a Hillsong or C3 Pastor comes across more like an entertaining clown rather than a faithful shepherd? Chris Rosebrough from Fighting For the Faith wrote an exceptional article what the role of the pastor should be. Sadly, we do not know any C3 pastors or Hillsong Pastors who reflect the role of a proper biblical Christian pastor.

For Whom Do Pastors Exist?

If I had ten dollars for every time I’ve heard a seeker-driven pastor justify the crazy antics that happen in their churches by claiming that “the church doesn’t exist for believers”, I’d be able to purchase James MacDonald’s home with cash. These seeker-driven antics include such things as playing AC/DC’s Highway to Hell to open their Easter service, refusing to preach the Bible with any depth or accuracy, performing Michael Jackson’s Thriller, recreating the famous kiss scene from the Spiderman movie and a whole host of other crazy worldly stunts.

When you call these pastors out on their antics their responses are predictable and consistent and usually go something like this:

Example 1

Church Attender: Hey pastor, why don’t you ever preach exegetical sermons? I feel like I’m not being fed here because your sermons usually only contain 3 or 4 verses taken out of context in order to teach some relevant life principle.

Pastor: Why are you so selfish? The church doesn’t exist for you. It’s not about you.

Example 2

Church Attender: Hey pastor, why did you have the worship team begin our Easter service with AC/DC’s Highway to Hell rather than a song proclaiming Jesus’ victorious resurrection from the grave? AC/DC is worldly at best and satanic at worst and that blasphemous song should not be brought into God’s house.

Pastor: Why are you so selfish? The church doesn’t exist for you. It’s not about you. Church isn’t for the already convinced its for the not yet convinced.

Example 3

Church Attender: Hey pastor, why are you preaching about movies rather than preaching God’s Word like 2 Tim 4:1-3 commands?

Pastor: Why are you so selfish? The church doesn’t exist for you. It’s not about you. Our church exists for people who are not yet believers.

Notice that each time the pastor answers using the standard seeker-driven talking point and doesn’t answer the question but makes a blanket claim that the church doesn’t exist for believers and therefore the person asking the question is guilty of selfishly believing that the church exists for them.

Anyone who’s been railroaded by these tactics knows that something is way off about these claims being made by seeker-driven pastors but don’t exactly know how to put their finger on the problem or know how to put it into words. This post will help you do that.

Notice that every time the word pastor has appeared, thus far, in this post that I’ve bolded it and underlined it. That is to help you spot the irony of the statements being made by seeker-driven pastorsand that irony will help you identify the underlying error in their tactics and methodologies.

Here’s the irony…No where in scripture does it say that the church exists for unbelievers. BUT, there are clear passages that state that pastors and elders are to serve the church. Therefore, it is ironic and foolish for a pastor, whose job is to serve the church to justify methods that don’t serve Christians by claiming that the church doesn’t exist for believers.

Here are the key passages that address this topic. We’ll begin by first looking at the passages that discuss spiritual gifts. The reason for this is that the ability to teach God’s word is a gift given by the Holy Spirit to certain people within the body of Christ.

The Purpose of Spiritual Gifts is to Build Up the Church Not The World

The Bible teaches that God, The Holy Spirit gives different gifts to different believers for the building up of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:4–7). Teaching is one of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to pastors and this gift is to be used specifically for believers.

Ephesians 4:8–13 states this very clearly:

“(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,”

In clear and unambiguous language God states that shepherds (pastors) and teachers in the church exist to equip the saints (not unbelievers) and to build up the body of Christ (not the world). This is clear and irrefutable.

Those Who Have the Gift To Teach Are Commanded to Feed Christ’s Sheep by Teaching the Word of God

The duties of shepherds and teachers within the church are governed by the instructions given by Jesus Christ.

“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him,“Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.” (John 21:15–17)

Notice that in this passage Jesus doesn’t tell Peter to entertain goats or dazzle the world. Instead, Christ soberly and firmly reinstates Peter after he’d denied Jesus three times. And Peter was reinstated into ministry and that ministry was to shepherd and feed Christ’s sheep. These commands by Jesus to Peter stuck with him his entire life. Peter himself would later exhort elders (pastors) with these words:

“So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.” (1 Peter 5:1–4)

This shepherding language is also use by the Apostle Paul when he addresses the elders of the Church of Ephesus. Here are Paul’s words of exhortation:

“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20:28–31)

It’s clear from these passages that pastors are not literal shepherds and that Christians are not literal sheep. All of these images are metaphors that help create a mental picture of the difficult and sacrificial work of pastors. So, when Jesus told Peter to “feed my sheep” what was Jesus referring to? What does a Pastor/Shepherd feed Christ’s sheep with?

The answer is simple, the Word of God, and two passages will suffice in demonstrating this fact:

“[Jesus] answered, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” (2 Timothy 3:14–4:4)

No commentary is needed for these verses because they clearly teach that God’s Word is ‘sheep food’ and that pastors are to be feeding the scriptures to Christ’s sheep.

The Bottom Line

The next time you hear a seeker-driven pastor attempt justify his shallow sermons and entertainment driven stunts by claiming that “the church doesn’t exist for believers”, kindly inform him that regardless of who the church exists for, his job exists to serve believers and Christ’s sheep and that if he won’t do his job that he’s rebelling against Jesus Christ Himself.

Source: Chris Rosebrough, For Whom Do Pastors Exist?, http://www.letterofmarque.us/2012/10/who-do-pastors-exist-for.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=for-whom-do-pastors-exist, 19/10/2012. (Accessed 23/02/2013.)

What Happened To Pat Mesiti of Hillsong?

02 Sunday Dec 2012

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If you would like to read more about Pat Mesiti’s involvement with Hillsong, read here:

A Hillsong History

The Sight Magazine interviewed Pat Mesiti. Below is the interview.

THE INTERVIEW: PAT MESITI

8th May, 2006

By late 2001, Sydney’s Pat Mesiti was one of Australia’s most well-known evangelists and a high-profile corporate speaker. Then came a very public moral fall and Mesiti stepped down from ministry. In February, after an absence of four-and-a-half years, the 46-year-old started preaching once again. He spoke with DAVID ADAMS about what led to him stepping down and his return to public ministry…

Pat, thanks for your time. You’ve just returned to preaching after a considerable absence. What happened that caused you to move out of preaching?

“Basically, about four-and-a-half years ago or so, I was on a speaking tour in America and I received a phone call and had to come home because an area of my life that was out of order was brought to light. I’d fallen morally and it came to light through a series of events and I came home. My (church) leadership confronted me on it and I owned up to it…Probably the hardest day of my life was in telling my children that their father had failed.”

Can you tell us a little bit about what it was – there was nothing illegal involved in what happened?“No, there was nothing illegal. There’s so many rumours out there about what I did and what I was supposed to have done. Someone said something about ‘predatory behaviour’ which I was not (involved in) and someone said I’d been dealing drugs – I’ve never even smoked a drug in my life. I was basically struggling with a sexual addiction and again, I reiterate, I did not do anything that was illegal.”

You’ve mentioned that since you stepped down, you’ve been going through a ‘healing and restoration’ process. What’s that involved?

“I was stood down, and rightfully so, and what I thought was a long sentence in my life was actually something that saved my neck and really got me on track spiritually. The process of restoration was, of course, standing down, and just learning to be a Christian rather than a ‘preacher’…There was a process of counselling – and I can tell people now I never believed in counselling until I needed it. And having good friends – there was not a lot of friends that I could talk to about it because I don’t believe you should talk to everybody about your situation but to good leaders…I kept going to church week in, week out – that was very hard sometimes and very embarrassing at times. But I kept going to the house of God because I knew the church was where I would get healing…”

What prompted you to start preaching again now?
“It wasn’t just me…I tell people that you don’t have the call of God, the call of God’s got you…I certainly would go back and forth on but I couldn’t shake it off. It wasn’t just me – I don’t deserve probably to preach ever again – but there’s obviously some people around me that seriously believe in me and believe in the gift of God – and my family certainly did, my wife and my children – and on that basis, (on that of) my spiritual leadership, Pastor Phil Pringle, and on the green light of other Christian leaders, we felt that it was good, that it was the right time.”

Obviously at the time of your stepping down there was criticism both from within the church and without the church…
“Actually, most of the criticism was from within the church.”

…and, I was going to ask, it is the criticism that comes from within the hardest to bear?

“The media – they weren’t after me, they were really after Brian and Hillsong. You know, Hillsong’s a great church and I tell people ‘Hillsong never hurt me, I hurt them; the body of Christ never hurt me, I hurt them’. But, you know, we’ve had people that have just said terrible things and it’s very hurtful. One of my friends – a successful businessman who’s not a Christian – said to me ‘Let me get this right Pat – you Christians, you’re the forgiven, is that right?’ I said yes. He said ‘Jesus died to cleanse all your sins?’ ‘Yep -He’s thrown them all in the sea of forgetfulness’ . And he said ‘You know what? For a bunch of forgiven people, you’re very unforgiving. Why do you people keep getting the scuba gear out?’. And I thought that was quite funny, I’d never heard anyone really put it that way before.”

You’re now going to Christian City Church in Oxford Falls…What prompted you to move from Hillsong?

“It’s a long story. I just felt that it was very hard for Brian and for the team there…People just didn’t know what to do and I was there and I want to get married now and I want to start again and we just kind of felt that it was time for me maybe to get a clean start and a clean break somewhere.”

When you stepped down from ministry in 2001, you were a best-selling author, presenting a weekly show on the Australian Christian Channel, and travelling the world talking to huge audiences. As a result of what happened, you lost your marriage, your business and you say, your friendships were ‘tested’. How hard is it to come back after such a public fall and was there a time when you were tempted to walk away from the church altogether?

“Well, let me first say that it is a very long walk home. And it’s a very painful walk home. Being such a public figure – you’d walk through airports and you’d hear things that people would say…it was a very hard walk, but a very worthwhile walk. I never once thought of walking away, it didn’t even cross my mind. That was never an option and I think you’ve got to make up your mind whether you really believe in this Christian deal or not. I get so disappointed with leaders that fall and they never go back to the church – they never follow the Lord and they get bitter at everybody rather than owning their own stuff. And I think through God’s grace and mercy, I’ve been able to own my stuff…That’s pretty hard, the blame. You can justify it but it doesn’t heal you, it doesn’t help you. It’s the old story of the serpent and Adam and Eve in the garden where you’re all looking for blame.”

Do you think that now that you’re back in a public forum preaching, the experience you’ve been through will be useful in that?

“It’s very easy to talk to me now about stuff and…On a one-on-one session, I find it very easy…but at my first preaching (session) I couldn’t sleep for a week or so, I was tossing and turning. But it was great and we’re back. I’m taking invitations and so forth – I’m certainly not going to be spending the rest of my life talking about the past but if I can use it to help some people…especially the leaders (I will).”

Do you think your experience helped to bring home to you in a new way, the spiritual condition of man?

“I knew it and I preached it. But, gosh, when you go through something like that…And also, I remember, one of my friends Steve Kelly telling me ‘Pat, you know, everything you’ve preached to others, it all applies to you – all the forgiveness’. I’ve got to tell you, it was very hard to believe that…”

Since your return to preaching, has there a particular message, God’s burning on your heart?

“Oh, how many?…I think one thing that I do believe is that I believe everything I believed before and preached before but I believe it more now. I certainly believe in the message of prosperity more now than I ever did. When I had a big income coming in – and boy, there were a lot of rumours about that as well, what I was earning – it’s easier to believe Jehovah Jireh and He’s the provider and then all of a sudden you’ve got nothing coming in and you still believe that He’s Jehovah Jireh. I think it’s certainly made me a lot softer towards people’s predicaments and I’ve probably realised that everybody has issues. And that’s why we need a Saviour and that’s why I love the Lord so much… I’ve preached in church at the moment and I’ve said, you know, ‘How many of you here think you have disappointed God?’ and 98 per cent of the congregation raise their hand. ‘Well,’ (I say), ‘I’ve got news for you – you can never disappoint the Lord. He has no allusions about you in the first place – He knows exactly what He’s got, He knows what I’ve made of and He’s knows that I’ve got clay feet and that’s why He bids me to come to His mercy seat’…”

The last few years you’ve been working as a motivational speaker and are known as “Mr Motivation”…Your website talks about getting a ‘millionaire mindset’ – what do you mean by that?

“It’s basically a catchy phrase on how to really renew your mind. People live like kings and think like paupers and it doesn’t work. I try and teach people to think differently – to think generously, to think prosperously, to think graciously, to be a bigger person. That’s my message really…”

There’s obviously been considerable debate about prosperity doctrine…

“It’s not a doctrine, it’s a principle…”

…what are your thoughts on that?
“I believe that God gives us prosperity for a purpose in every area of your life – in your relationships, in your faith. People like some of the great charismatic leaders of some of our large churches, they get torn down by the media and yet some New Age guru comes over here, charges $2,000, fleeces everybody and tells a pack of lies and the media have got no problem with that. Yet a man of God will get up and teach something that is Biblically sound…and get shot down in flames, even from some of his own people. It’s never about the money. It’s not about money, it’s about people and helping people live better, think better, act better and be generous and be kind and be fruitful and have a big spirit. I’m kind of going – where is the problem with this message? I don’t know where the problem is, it’s beyond me.”

So the money really is irrelevant in that sense – whether you have a lot or a little?

“You know, the widow’s mites – she gave all she had. She was generous. She wasn’t a millionaire but boy, she had something about her that was different to all the others. The millionaires were broke in their thinking – they gave out of their stinginess, she gave out of her abundance of heart. That’s where people kind of miss it.”

Can you now go a little back further in time and tell us about how you came to be a Christian in the first place?

“I gave my life to Christ when I was a teenager at an Assemblies of God church in Sydney. My grandmother had been in the faith and she would share the Lord with us and, of course, me being an arrogant, smart teenager, I didn’t want to hear it. But then I went to Italy and came back and..went to a youth group and gave my life to Christ. There was a guy there from Youth With A Mission who preached that night and I gave my life to the Lord.”

You went on to become one of the pioneers of Youth Alive in Australia – how did that come about?

“(I)’ve always had this burning desire to help young people and I was involved in a youth group as a youth pastor – a very conservative one at that – and I just felt we needed to do something. I was involved with another gentlemen in starting Youth Alive in Sydney and he kind of fell by the way and I took it on to a state event and got it more, not so much bands orientated, but worship and praise orientated. I really believe that Youth Alive was the instigator for a lot of the modern-day worship that we have in Australia…I think Youth Alive as a whole was very instrumental in what we have now. As a matter of fact, quite a lot of the Youth Alive team were people like Darlene Zschech and Geoff Bullock and…John Waller and Randall Waller – so a lot of the modern-day heroes of praise and worship were members of the Youth Alive band…”

Where do you see yourself five years from now?
“Five years from now?…Let me put it this way: I still think my calling is to come alongside pastors and help build their churches through winning people to Christ. I see myself as doing more of the same – not the negative behaviour, by the way – but more of the same as far as reaching lost people and reaching broken people and helping those that need help. My passion has always been to build the local church. It hasn’t left me and I want to continue to do that. Evangelism, crusades, business functions – any opportunity we can get to really impact people. That’s what I really see myself doing is being a builder of churches and being a builder of people…I can’t undo what I did and I won’t do it either because there is no way you can unravel that. But the best I can do is try by…the Lord’s ability to forget what lies behind and press on to help build what Jesus is building and that’s His church. That’s where I see myself in five years time and hopefully for the rest of my life. I’m very grateful to God that He’s given me a second chance. People say that God’s a God of second chances and I say ‘Well, God’s a God of the seventy times seventh chance’. We must never limit God and His ability to use us – what He can do and what He can’t do – and I think alot of people do that…I’m open to whatever God has for me but it will always be, I think, in the confines of helping to build the local church and winning people to Himself.

Source: THE INTERVIEW: PAT MESITI, Sight Magazine, http://www.sightmagazine.com.au/stories/Features/mesiti8.5.06.php,08/05/2006. (Accessed 08-07-2012.)

NOTE: SCREEN GRAB TAKEN ON THE 08/07/2012.