Breaking News: Goldman calls out Scott Morrison & his association to cults covering up paedophilia


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We have been covering the paedophile scandal cover-up of Phil Pringle of C3 Church. If people tuned in to 2SM radio this morning, they would have learnt that this scandal also found it’s way into the Hillsong movement.

This morning, Grant Goldman from 2SM radio publicly challenged Scott Morrison’s associations with cult leader Brian Houston of Hillsong. Goldman also introduced the serious issues behind Hillsong by introducing cult leader Phil Pringle and his C3 movement into the mix, highlighting the fact that both men have covered up paedophilia in their church’s. Goldman focused on Kerrie Ferguson’s story as well.

You can read Kerrie Ferguson’s ongoing story here in how this was covered up:

C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 1)
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 2) – The cover-up scandal that Pringle refused to deal with…
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 3) Sex, Money, Power
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 4) Pringle regards pastors “gambling” worse than pastors defending a pedophile?
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 5) Phil Pringle’s leadership – an unresolved mess
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 6) C3 prophetically manipulating the abused into silence
C3 Parramatta Scandal (Part 7) Letter exposing Pringle covering up paedophilia & refusing to help victim

You can listen to the radio segment here:

[Click to download audio.]

Scott Morrison attends ShireLIVE and has close ties with the better-known Hillsong community. Brian Houston is one of Morrison’s mentors and we have a personal email claiming that Scott Morrison has boasted that his mentor is Brian Houston.

Hillsong’s influence with influential people: “Brian Houston, is one of [Scott] Morrison’s mentors”

If you don’t know how to navigate what surfaced from the Royal Commission regarding Houston covering up his father’s crimes, please read the below link:

Evidence, Fact Files & testimonies exposing Brian Houston at the Royal Commission

[EDIT: 23/09/2015 – Transcript added.]

TRANSCRIPT: Grant Goldman to Scott Morrison, Monday 21 September 2015.

“On August 24th, less than a month ago, I had something to say about Scott Morrison,  I stated that in 2007 Morrison as State Director of the Liberal Party was the beneficiary of a totally unfounded and unjustified smear campaign against a man by the name of Michael Towke, the telecommunications engineer who had been preselected by the Liberal Party for the seat of Cook.  The effect of that smear campaign was that Morrison, who in contesting the preselection, had received less than one tenth of the votes won by Towke. But Morrison was able to gain the Liberal endorsement as the Member for Cook.

In recent days supporters of Tony Abbott have suspected the loyalty and sincerity of Scott Morrison who appears to have been rewarded for his failure to defend the then Prime Minister against the Turnbull attack.  In his Maiden Speech to the Federal Parliament on 14 February 2008, Scott Morrison made favourable mention of Pastor Brian Houston who operates the Hillsong religious organisation.

So who is Pastor Brian Houston, the mentor to Scott Morrison?  Is he?

This is the fellow who told a Royal Commission that he had no legal or moral obligation to the victims of sexual abuse perpetrated by his predecessor in the leadership of Hillsong, his father Frank Houston.    In October 2014 the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse was told by a witness known as AHA that when he was seven years only, Pastor Frank Houston would come to his room, lie on him, fondle him and masturbate him.  When Brian Houston found out that in 1999 that his father was a pederast taking advantage of a young boy, he failed to tell the Police.  Instead, Brian Houston and  committee of the Assemblies of God suspended Frank Houston’s preaching credentials, for just two years.

It gets worse.  I have in my hand as I write a copy of testimony given to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse by a lady named Kerri.  I shall put this document on my website.   Kerri told the commission the tragic story of how her son was raped by the man she had married.  Her son reported the crime to two Pastors, Gary Dench and Ian Treacy.  They did not tell the police.  They did not tell the victim’s mother. They admonished the victim, telling him he was partly to blame.

After Kerri learned from her son what had happened, she told the Police and also asked for help from the Head Pastor of the Christian City Church, Phil Pringle who provided no assistance.   Pringle had suspended Dench, not because Dench had concealed a crime against a child, but because Dench’s wife had won a prize in the lottery.

Later Kerri asked for help from Pastor Brian Houston of Hillsong Church knowing him to be a close friend of Pastor Phil Pringle.  I’ll quote what Kerri told the commission:

“I related our circumstances to Brian Houston who became very irritated, told me he did not believe that such a thing had happened, turned his back on me and walked away.”

That is Brian Houston, who I understand with his wife Bobbie still calls the shots at Hillsong.

I am inviting Scott Morrison to come on my program and repudiate Pastor Brian Houston.  I want Scott Morrison to express disgust at a Christian Leader who fails to report the sexual abuse of a child.   I want Scott Morrison to express disgust at a Christian Leader who turns his back on member of his own congregation, a mother whose son has been betrayed by other pastors in the network, who refused to report to police that that boy had been raped, and instead told the boy he was partly to blame.

If you agree with me, back me up. If you disagree, prove me wrong.”


Brian Houston’s convenient memory loss on how he treated his “best friend”


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One reason why we started Church Watch was because we noticed popular cults starting to rewrite their history. Specifically C3 and Hillsong.

In his book, ‘Live Love Lead,’ Brian Houston of Hillsong lied about his history in how he dealt with his father’s crimes and victims (he also added new information to the story that was not disclosed at the Royal Commission). The stories he told the media also contradicted his story at the Royal Commission.

He has also been promoting the lie that he started CLC/Hillsong (switching histories to suit whatever agenda). He also insists that he founded his church at Hills in 1983. This is now being refuted as well.

The philosophy with Hillsong is this: if your history doesn’t make you look good, change it or cover it up. And Brian Houston has had lots of experience with this (as we are about to find out).


EIC – no morals, no ethics, no Christianity. Just a network to promote stuff that sounds Christian to consumers.

Recently, Brian Houston was focusing on the Evangelical Industrial Complex (EIC) in America to sell his new book ‘Live Love Lead.’ Terry Meeuwsen appeared to make Houston nervous while he promoted his material on the Christian Broadcast Network. She raised the issue of Houston’s terrible experience losing his “best friend” in 1995. His body language indicated that he clearly was not comfortable with Meeuwsen throwing this experience in his face. (Watch at 7:10 onwards.)


Terry Meeuwsen: “… When I think of Hillsong, I think of praise and worship because those songs are sung in my own church and the churches of so many of us. And God actually used the disappointment and the surprise of a leader leaving – a key lead- THE leader of your worship team, and yet God did an amazing thing.

Brian Houston: “You mean right back in 1995?

Terry Meeuwsen: Yeah.

Brian Houston: So it’s 20 years ago? It’s true.

We were on the edge of recording with ah- Integrity Music here in America. And of course we’re Down Under, like, you know, its already amazing that, that um- people were reaching out to us.

And so, the week that it was about to happen – and ah- I still don’t even understand it. I still to this day don’t understand it. But our worship leader walked out. [Behaviour gets antsy] And literally walked out. Like literally left my life- left our lives- and he was like a best friend, so there’s huge grief involved. [Rubs loose tooth?] And uh-

But the incredible thing in it all is that the only person I could turn to was a lady called Darlene Zschech. And of course Darlene Zschech is well-known now around the globe. So I kind of, as well as I could, I gently pushed her forward. I rang Integrity Music. And incredibly they never had a woman lead one of their projects at that time. So it was quite a big thing for them. But it turned out to be an amazing story.”

[Drinks cup of water]

That worship leader and “best friend” to Brian Houston in 1995 was Geoff Bullock.

Geoff Bullock was the man that gave Christian Life Centre the name Hillsong and helped put Hillsong on the map for it’s outstanding musical events and it’s famous music. Just like many others who made Hillsong what it is today, Brian Houston simply rode on the coat-tails of his “friends” who made Hillsong what it is.

Geoff Bullock

So how does Brian Houston treat his best friends? Did he really suffer memory loss on the CBN set? To answer that question, we will look at Brian Houston’s book ‘You Can Change the Future’, Tanya Levin’s book ‘People in Glass Houses’ and finally read what Geoff Bullock himself said about his experience.

Tanya Levin Hillsong Brian Houston cult

Tanya Levin wrote about Geoff Bullock in her book ‘People in Glass Houses’:

“Geoff left Hillsong in late 1995. I knew that his marriage had broken down and had remarried but, not having stayed in touch with the Christian music scene, not much else. The Geoff that I shared cappuccinos with was the same man as always. Same piercing blue eyes, soft mannerisms, and a voice born for the BBC. Geoff is not, by nature, an AoG salesman. Rather he represents a large group of artists who are attracted to the Pentecostal church by the opportunity for creative expression for Jesus.

What I didn’t expect was the brokenness. Although I had worked with people from a diversity of backgrounds for years, I assumed all the old wise men of God were naturally of stronger character than me, Over the time we spoke I found it not to be so. It was Geoff’s openness and willingness to talk that prepared me for a world of people damaged for the long-term by the work of Hillsong and the AoG.

Geoff says he remembers having episodes of mania when he was a child, although he wasn’t diagnosed with symptoms of any kind until after he left Hillsong. He sees a therapist to work on his long periods of depression, which are often followed by episodes of intense creativity. The other obstacle in his life is the nightmares he suffers dating from the time with Hillsong, an off-shoot of his post-traumatic stress diagnosis.

As the Hillsong conference expanded in the late eighties, so did Geoff’s responsibilities and pressures. He and his wife, Janine, were expected to spend infinite hours away from their children to run the music department. International interest in the music grew and so did Geoff’s profile. The couple travelled extensively with the Praise and Worship team, and personally with their old friends Brian and Bobbie. Despite the bright lights and the glory, his music career at it’s peak, Geoff was finding less satisfaction and spirituality in what he was doing.

After the most successful conference yet, Hillsong ’95, Geoff went to Brian and told him he was leaving. It was time, he felt, spiritually, to pursue other interests. Nothing personal.

Geoff Bullock had left a career with ABC-TV as a production manager to become a pastor with the Hills Christian Life Centre in 1978. For nearly twenty years he was able to use those skills to produce Hillsong music, and the show that accompanied it. During that time he wrote, produced and performed countless songs, and released seven albums. Because Hillsong still uses those songs, has remixed them and re-released them, Geoff’s royalties are growing at the same rate as Hillsong.

Which is lucky for Geoff. Hillsong did everything in its power to prevent his future success. Due to speak at a bible college occasion soon after leaving, he received a phone call with a sudden apology. Hillsong had informed the bible college that any associations with Geoff Bullock meant no further association with Hillsong. Christian magazines were told the same thing. Piles of the CD Geoff was about to release were found dumped at a tip in Blacktown, not far from Hillsong headquarters.

In Bobbie’s I’ll Have What She’s Having, this period is clearly referred to (the emphases are hers):

  In July 1995, we witnesses a wonderful HILLSONG Leadership Conference. It was our 9th conference and in our nation and in our context of influence, to put it delicately- ‘we put the wind up the devil!!!’ Stories would flood into our offices of churches and towns being turned upside down with a revival spirit. God is good (all the time). Brian and I took a week to tie up loose ends and then together with our friends Pat and Liz Mesiti we took a little holiday. (I think God was just being terribly kind to give us a rest, because he knew what lay around the next bend.)

  We came home a week later, stepped off the plane (‘hello, hello … lovely to see you … we missed you all … had a lovely time!’) and literally all hell broke out with one of our key people. It was the first and only time that something like this had happened to us. (I must admit prior to that conference I sensed something brewing, and had called our pastors wives to prayer.)

  … For the next several months it was as though demons came out of the woodwork on every front. When attacks come from every side it is a sure sign that you are doing something right (which is contrary to some people’s belief). We experienced a barrage of attack-cancer, accidents, stinking thinking, people throwing in the towel, disloyalty in our team that disappointed our heart, devil induced confusion, opposition and fine thread ‘cancerous attitude’ bent on contaminating and taking out this particular Body of Christ.

Eventually, a Hillsong board member had lunch with Geoff. ‘We tried to destroy you,’ he told him. ‘until we realised you weren’t a threat.’ Geoff continues to work and write music, though he gave up performing years ago.

The nightmares remain one of the most intrusive spillovers from the old days. Three of four times a week he dreams about Hillsong events, being humiliated by Brian’s demands, being screamed at, berated and bullied along the way. His psyche is deeply affected. He is very aware that he, too, became a bully. Years later, Geoff has tried to make amends to many people he treated ruthlessly in order to avoid punishment from above.

At the end of our first meeting at a café, Geoff is exhausted. He tells me he feels drained by the remembering. I realise I have stumbled into a much more serious affliction in people’s lives than I had anticipated.”

Source: Tanya Levin, People in Glass Houses, Published: Black Inc., Melbourne, VIC: 2007, pg. 242-4.

Brian Houston writes of his best friend this way in his book ‘You Can Change the Future’ (a book that attempted to cover up his father’s crimes as a paedophile and exalted as a role model for others to follow):

Royal Commission - Brian Houston

Commitment to the right vehicle

“When I was a little boy, I had a scooter. As I got older, I rode a three-wheeled trike before I got my first bicycle. One day my father took me down to the shops and as I sat impatiently waiting for him in the car, all of sudden [sic] he came around the corner with a shining green bicycle. It was my pride and joy. Of course getting my first car was an unforgettable moment in my life. It was a ’57 Austin A50. It was also green and it cost me $650.

Many people desire to make an impact on the generations but rely on old vehicles to get there. Imagine me trying to fulfil my overseas speaking engagements via my original scooter or bicycle! You need the right vehicle and the right associations to enable God to take you forward. You may have a great vision to impact the earth, but alone you cannot do as much as you could together with others. If you are in associations which are holding you back or on a vehicle that is moving too slowly, stretch yourself by stepping into the mainstream and being committed to going forward.

I have been blessed to pastor at least four world-class songwriters, and many others heading in the same direction. I cannot take credit for their anointing or their God-given gifts, but I do have a sense of satisfaction about their opportunity. The Hillsong Church is a vehicle that has taken their songs to the world. One of these writers, who severed their link to our church several years ago, told me how they were writing more songs than ever before. Interestingly, it is only the songs that were written within the local church that I have heard anybody singing. It seems as though the local church was the vehicle which God was blessing.

Currently, the most sung praise and worship songs in Australian churches have emerged from the life of our church. Obviously that association with Hillsong Church has been very fruitful for people like Darlene Zschech, Ruben Morgan and Russel Fragar. They have obvious talent, a beautiful anointing, but also the right vehicle. Talent and anointing on their own aren’t enough, but placing the right people, in the right place, at the right time, has enormous potential.”

Source: Brian Houston, You Can Change the Future: Living Beyond Today and Impacting the Generations Ahead, Published: Maximised Leadership Incorporated, Australia, 2000, pg. 131-2.

And what did Geoff Bullock had to say about his experience? This is a very insightful interview exposing what Bullock went through, discussing areas of Hillsong’s philosophy, methods and dirty tactics which lead to his swift removal.

And Houston claims he has no idea why Geoff Bullock, his best friend, walked? What other lies and smear campaigns has Brian Houston written about in his book ‘Live Love Lead’? What other media organisations and Christian groups has he publicly mislead and lied to about his past life?

Let the sledge BEGIN!

Let the sledge BEGIN!

Terry Allen from the Christian Faith wrote this piece back in 2010:

Geoff Bullock opens up …

We all know his music and we each have a favourite. He is Geoff Bullock. But what do you know about the man? About Geoff as a Christian? About Geoff as a sufferer of bi-polar disorder?

Join Geoff as he discusses his life and ministry with Terry Allen.

Geoff, what have you been doing for the last decade or so?
Oh, what a question! What have I been doing for the last 10 years? I would say I have been learning grace and un-learning working to prove myself.

Now, that is not just in a spiritual situation, that is in a whole of life situation: in my relationships with my kids, with my friends, with [wife] Victoria, especially as a step-father. Learning how to be rather than to do.

Spiritually, that has huge impacts on my life. I wrote two books at the beginning of the century, which was the beginning of that journey. Jesus’ story painted in a way that I hope you could see or visualize the impact he was making on society and the lives of broken hearted people; people without hope.

In the last 10 years I suppose, I would say, combined with that, I have been battling with mental illness: bi-polar type two which has caused all manner of symptoms in my life which has been confronting. One of the main ones being high levels of anxiety, which has seen me come and go publically three times.

I am now 10 years on and I feel the illness is manageable and the greatest gift, I think, is that I have been forced to learn insight into the way I think and the way that I do. I have learnt that by reflection on my past and reflection on the times where I can see the illness in that.

Also, over the last decade, I have had a most surprising return to public profile to tie that journey in to the life of Christ and the hope we see in the cross. So, I think that’s what I’ve been doing.

Life as a Christian, especially with bi-polar disorder, must be difficult. Some Christians believe it is demonic & should be dealt exclusively by prayer. How have you managed it?
Well, the first thing I want to wade in swinging is that I wish the evangelists and those who visit churches, and they arrive one day and leave the other, who drop such dangerous bombs on people’s medical situations; I wish they would go and do some research by sitting down with a psychiatrist and realizing how dangerous their teaching is.

You wouldn’t dare say that to someone with diabetes, but this irresponsible message; all it does is heighten the symptoms twice. You know, they go off medication, they get worse and then, getting worse, they think they must be possessed by demons, so that makes them feel worse and then they are totally without an anchor. Of course the hope of medication and a good psychiatrist is taken away from them, so I get furious about that.

And it’s also totally irrelevant to the gospel. There’s no resemblance to the life of Christ whatsoever. So, those are my little swinging punches.

For me, I do a lot of thinking, prayerful thinking and I think about the life of Christ all the time. Trying to strip away all of the things we’ve said culturally and theologically: strip it away. The drama that was Jesus when he walked into somebody’s life or somebody’s social circumstances: that is of great help to me.

I have a little saying: receiving grace compels us to begin the journey towards becoming gracious. Receiving grace is free but becoming gracious will cost you everything. It will cost you every opinion you have in your life and every bias.

So that has made a huge difference in the way I react to my symptoms because often my symptoms are feelings of rejection and a lack of affirmation and a feeling of isolation.Then I will expect people to do as I want them to do which is to work to prove their love for me as I am working to prove my love for them.   So meditating on the life of Christ helps me to challenge that works based expectation of myself and others.

Bi-polar disorder is often suffered by artistic and creative people and one of the symptoms is depression. Have you suffered depression?
Yes, I’ve been absolutely lost in it. It was in 2007, actually it started back in November 2006, I remember vividly when i suddenly realised that I was falling into depression, I was sitting on a sun drenched balcony overlooking the sea and feeling absolutely miserable and that lasted for just on a year.

Obviously, talking to my GP and then my psychiatrist, I began a journey of trying to balance medication and cognitive therapy. I ended up as a day patient at a psychiatric clinic in Sydney, which I think was the beginning of helping me to have insight and, strangely enough, 2008 saw the rebirth of what I’m doing now and I spent a good 18 months of it depressed, but it was wonderful having a mission.

Have you ever felt Christian condemnation over your condition?

No, I don’t think I’ve ever been in that situation, but look, I can be a little outspoken and I have thought really deeply about my condition and so I feel that I have ammunition now. If, for example someone said to me, “Oh, it’s the devil”, which did happen to me once: one of my very, very oldest friends: he is not a man with insight. He does not think deeply and so he has a book of rules that he applies. He started a conversation with me about my depression being demonic and I think my response was strong enough for him to realize that even if he thought I was wrong, he would be wise to step away.

15 years ago you left Hillsong. Why?
Well, I’ve got to say that I was always a round peg in a square hole there. From the beginning of Hillsong’s association with the Word of Faith churches in America, their prosperity doctrine and their very works-based doctrine of spiritual and physical rewards, I just could not tie the gospel together with what they were saying. Not when I looked at Jesus at the cross; I couldn’t understand how they combined the grace of Jesus found in the gospel with the laws of conditional blessings and rewards found in the Old Testament.

They teach that Jesus rewards us according to our works. That is not the work of Christ. Grace is never a reward. We receive grace as a gift according what Jesus accomplished for us.

I actually tried to leave in 1992, but got turned around. It’s important that I say I chose to stay and rededicate all that I could to continue being part of their vision and the outworking of it.

Then, in 1995, I had two major things happening: I had this sensation that I really didn’t know Jesus. I knew Paul’s Jesus, I knew the epistles’ Jesus and Hebrews and I knew my movement’s Jesus: all the preachers and teachers who came through and spoke about him, but in my own life I felt I did not have this sense of meeting him. And so I started a search.

That’s when I wrote the song Jesus, God’s righteousness revealed. Towards the middle of the year, I started to really burn out because I was trying so hard to prove myself worthy of being who I was and trying to prove myself worthy of God’s presence on a Sunday: I had this poor, misguided feeling that if I play really, really well, God will come. It might sound stupid to say it, but it was where I think lots of Church musicians still are.

But after Hillsong ’95 I just felt so broken and so failed, I thought, “Look, I could just fall over dead and no one would notice.” But then I had this profound sense, and it grew: in fact, I would say it was the strongest spiritual encounter I had with God, where he said, through a whole lot of ways, to do something: that I had to go.

And it took three months and a whole lot of conversations, but eventually I wrote a letter and handed it on by a friend. I didn’t have the courage to do it to their face, but I knew that if I didn’t do what I felt God was saying… I had a choice: either I follow God or follow the church.

In the end, I’d rather build my relationship, my spirituality, on trying to discern what God’s saying to me and that’s how I left. And it really was the great divorce. It was unnecessarily bitter and divisive and that I found very confusing.

By saying it was bitter and divisive, do you mean you were stabbed in the back?
Yes, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. There were letters written to other churches, there were approaches made to other churches, there was a statement made to the whole church leadership team. They just couldn’t understand what I was doing, but in the end that’s just human and it’s very painful.

One of the hardest things was when my marriage ended three months later people jumped to a conclusion which was so far from the truth. This sad piece of gossip is still believed to be the truth.

Even last weekend I had to retell my story to put events back into the order that they occurred.  It would have been lovely if Hillsong helped to put things right. However I simply became the invisible and forgotten man and that hurts deeply. Very deeply. I would have thought that my work there was seen as a blessing.

Unfortunately, I don’t think that rift has ever been repaired. There is nothing to indicate that it has.

Has there been any reaction at Hillsong in recent times to your current ministry?
Well, firstly, I made contact within six months with Brian Houston who was my very best friend at the time. This is really painful stuff and I can fully understand how he felt. I tried to explain as I was slowing gaining insight into what eventually would be bi-polar. I talked about co-dependency, I talked about my spirituality and I would often find that Brian would understand and ‘get it’. I had a chance to go and see most of the elders and senior pastors at that time and try to explain that I was sorry it happened the way it happened. I could have handled it a whole lot better: I handled it very, very poorly. I suppose we both did, but I can only be accountable for myself.

I met with Brian many, many times because I didn’t like the thought that he thought ill of me and misunderstood me, but I also felt that I had wounded him in a way that I wished I hadn’t and that somehow I could take those wounds away or help heal them. So, we’ve had good contact, but as far as the church is concerned, nothing. There’s just been silence, absolute silence.

I must say, when I left and obviously it was getting rather sad, I decided not to contact any of my friends because I felt that if I did, the worst thing they could do is try to understand me because then they would misunderstand the church and I didn’t want to put my friends in the middle of something that was unnecessary but very human. So, I walked away too and that has to be understood.

Funnily enough, I could see something of my bi-polar going way back to when I was 17 and I was at a very good school in Sydney and all of a sudden I decided I had to leave and I left at the end of year 11. I’ve had almost no contact with that school ever since.

The same thing when I left the ABC and the same thing when I left Hillsong. There is a part of me: I just cut my ties and run.

In realising this I have to take responsibility for my actions and not blame others for my sense of isolation. This is a difficult lesson to admit. I must have hurt so many people. However, no matter how I set about leaving I always come back to believing that i made the right decision.

You wrote some of our generation’s favourite songs. They are ones we all sing in Church. How does that make you feel?
Weird. I’ve always been a musician and always written songs but it hadn’t really defined me all that much, so it was very weird when all of a sudden I was writing songs that were defining me. My claim to fame in the early to mid 80’s was that I was a former cameraman with the ABC. I worked on virtually all their programs for 10 years, so that was my claim to fame.

Then I wrote The Power of Your Love and The Heavens Shall Declare and off it all went. And I have really badly battled with it at times because I would feel it placed on me a responsibility to try to be someone I wasn’t. And that was hard and unnecessary, but I would still feel this pressure. People would come and tell me these stories and I wouldn’t know how to answer.

The way I relate to it now is that I just feel like I have very successful children, which I gave birth to. They’ve now gone and travelled the world, they’ve made a huge impact in their own right and I look back remembering their birth, but looking at their independence. I think that’s by and large how I relate to it now.

Many of the songs you wrote, you now sing with revised lyrics. Why?
Well, I suppose it’s because I remember who I was when I wrote the song. I remember my approach to God and I remember what was a real disfunctionality.  Yes, it was the result of an undiagnosed illness, but it was also an error of theology. An error of grace or rather an error of works in grace.

When Paul says in Galatians, “You foolish Galatians.” ‘You silly things. It had to be done by the Spirit; what are you doing completing it by works?’

Well, that was me. I sort of felt like it was a one-time grace or two-time grace. You went back to God asking for forgiveness, you hung your head in shame, but then you tried to prove yourself worthy of it all. I was constantly striving and therefore constantly burning out.

I was so fierce on myself. I would just push myself and push myself and I would never receive any comfort because I would always be measuring myself and coming up short. I didn’t count myself worthy of comfort. I could never be than man of god that significant others were telling me I should be.

In the middle of this sad and broken time I became aware, ever so gently, that grace was embracing me. I started to realise that I hadn’t fallen from grace, I had fallen into it. I was no less righteous; I had simply lost my sense of self righteousness. Yes, there were consequences but I  became increasingly aware that Jesus had come to give me hope and to help me to be accountable to all these consequences.

So, grace became my only anchor, sort of like lifeboat drill. When you’re a sailor and you do lifeboat drill it is usually in an Olympic swimming pool, but when you are in the middle of Bass Strait, you suddenly discover how effective this lifeboat is.

And so the phrase, “Lord, I come to you,” I was saying that in frustration. “Oh Lord I’m sorry. I should be there with you but I’m not. Here I come again. I come to you again.” And then the prayer, “Lord, hold me close” is like saying “Please hold me close because I don’t think you are holding me close at the moment. I think perhaps you turned away again because you are as frustrated with me as I am.”

The wonderful truth is that the “Lord you come to me to let my heart be changed, renewed flowing from the grace that I found in you” that the “weaknesses that I see in me are being stripped away by the power of your love.” Isn’t that so wonderful? Sometimes I wonder if we simply don’t understand what God has already done for us in Jesus.

So I changed that song to a confession of what God has done. It’s not “hold me close” but “you hold me close”. No matter how dry and disappointed I am, to be able to say to myself, “It’s okay, he’s holding you. You’re depressed, life is tough, but nothing’s changed between you and God. You’re not a disappointment.” And perhaps that also relates back to my experience with my father.

You would hope every Christian, certainly evangelicals, would be pleased that you are looking for ways to ground your songs in God’s word, because if they are not Scriptural we should not be singing them. However, in the case of The Power of Your Love, and I’m thinking in particular of that line you mentioned: “Lord I come to you,” Jesus said in Matthew 11:28, “Come to me all you who are weary and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” So the idea of us coming to God is not un-Biblical, therefore there is no need to completely re-hash all of your songs is there?
No, but you see the greatest thing about Jesus saying “Come to me,” is he wasn’t calling to me from the other end of heaven waiting for me to work and struggle all the way to him. Jesus came to mankind to say “Come to me”. And that’s outrageous when you really think about that. God put on flesh to come personally. I mean, he could have sent a postcard, he could have written in the sky, but he came personally to dwell as a human being.

Jesus has come to hold us close, to draw us to his side, to comfort us, to speak healing to our wounded souls. He comes propelled by a mission of such eternal and unconditional love.

For this current generation, singing in church has become synonymous with worship. Why is that? And how would you describe the current state of Christian music?
First, I think we need to look at ‘worship’ again. And I think ‘worship’ as our response to Jesus could be a whole lot of other things before we turn it into songs. The intimacy between a husband and wife is expressed many ways before it becomes a love song and that love song will speak of a life of love rather than a love song about love itself.

And I think we’re in error here. I’m not saying don’t sing or play. I think that’s fabulous; it gets down into the soul. Many of the lyrics we sing are great theological truths, mind you, many of them aren’t, but if we could get a grip on God becoming flesh to come to us, Jesus living a life of grace, love, forgiveness, mercy with his last dying words announcing forgiveness and then living a life that responds to his life. How wonderful could that be.

For me worship is my response to the grace of Jesus. This response is my choice to become gracious, to become loving, accepting, merciful, forgiving. This journey needs grace for every step, however, this journey will start its work of transformation in me and hopefully through my life: a worship that flows from grace becoming graciousness in us. A worship that is seen in our relationships with the world around us. A worship that cries “grace” to our leaders, the media, our friends and our enemies.

Does this mean we don’t sing anymore? Not at all. It simply means that our songs are more about worship rather than being worship. Yes, of course there is time for celebration, for adoration, for a corporate time of singing songs of love thankfulness but we will be on a wonderful journey discovering that there is so much more than we have ever realised. I think our songs would be more wonderful, but I think our worship lives would be even more wondrous and I think the way the church’s interaction with our world could be far more a work of love than us simply singing songs on a Sunday morning.

So now I’m wondering what elements have to go in to make a good Christian song. Is it difficult to write a song which has both a good “hook” and good theology?
Yes it is. I must admit, these days I write from experience first, or from meditation first. Almost every song I write is about brokenness being repaired in the most extraordinary way. So I start, I suppose, with my own sense of being overwhelmed with who God is when I see him from my own brokenness.

Then I try and work that into good poetry that has flow, a little bit of repetition but especially that each line contains a picture that is bigger than the words. Then, working that into a melody that can fly; that can float, so you can close your eyes and be caught up in just a beautiful melody.

Or you can turn the melody off, just read the words and become caught up in the words: a piece of poetry. But you put it together and I suppose I hope that people go, “Oh, my goodness, that’s me. How wonderful!” That it hits their life, not just their soul.

You have been a Christian for over 30 years. You’ve had highs and lows. Looking back over that time, what can you say you have learnt about God and what advice would you give to a young Christian about how they should prioritise their life?
What I’ve learnt about God is just the overwhelming amazement that God would do the Jesus story. He didn’t have to. He just didn’t have to. He lived in this huge creation of trillions and trillions of stars and constellations and whatever. That God would make a bee line to broken people finds me simply awestruck!

It appears to me that Jesus did not come to establish Christianity, he did not come to start a movement, he came to meet one person here, and one person there. Broken people, hopeless people, people like me, like you. Jesus did not come to reward us; there’s no reward in it. He came to give hope and he came to affirm the most unlikely people.

Perhaps that’s one of the reasons why he was crucified, because he put everybody’s nose out of joint, he was a disappointment to so many people who wanted a messiah in the image of their needs and theologies. Jesus was not a preacher of righteousness, he was a bringer of hope to the unrighteous, the poor in spirit. He didn’t start a campaign to overthrow the Romans, he affirmed a Roman centurion as having more faith than all of Israel.

He allowed a prostitute to anoint him with oil with her hair… Jesus was decidedly “ungodly”. This Jesus excites me because the more I look at him, the more I meditate on his life, the more grace I see.And that’s a growing thing, it continues in my life. This is the truth, it’s not just something I’ve learnt to do to get myself seminars & concerts. It is a constant source of amazement.

So I would say to a young Christian, “Look, this is different to any other relationship you’ve got. You don’t have to prove yourself worthy. You don’t have to dress up, know the right words to say or the right actions to make. You are totally free to be just who you are. You don’t have to have faith. There is no hurry. Ahead of you is a lifetime of discovery. Jesus offers his life, he holds it out to you. It’s free. It’s a gift. God comes to bring hope to the good times and the bad times, the times when we make mistakes, some truly awful mistakes. This Jesus shows us an acceptance that gives us the hope that we can walk forward with his comfort, his peace, his grace and his love. I have found that, in my life, a life that has had its considerable challenges, that I am slowly being renewed and transformed. And that’s really quite amazing.

Geoff, thank you for what you have given in service of the kingdom over the years and for enriching the lives of so many congregations who have sung your songs over and over. We pray the Lord will bless your ministry in whatever time remains. May you make the most of it.
Thank you for the opportunity of being part of what you are doing. And if you hear of anybody who wants that message, you know where I am.

Source: By Terry Allen, Geoff Bullock opens up…, Christian Faith,, Published 29/09/2010. (Accessed 20/09/2015.)


Once again, Brian Houston comes across as an unstable man, ruling with an iron fist in a movement where he demands things are done his way. If Geoff Bullock was his “best friend”, why did Brian Houston and his empire destroy him? Why is everything always about Brian Houston? How come Houston is the victim… again?

Geoff Bullock repented of his sins and sought reconciliation to those he damaged. However, Brian Houston still refuses to show any sign of the Holy Spirit. No conviction of sin. No repentance. No seeking reconciliation of those he has destroyed.

Only lies, slander and cover up in his books and on national television. Lastly, if this is the way Brian Houston treats his “best friend”, you have to wonder how he treats people he doesn’t know.

The Hillsong empire strikes back at the rebels base


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The empire without a clue recently struck the rebel with a cause. Below she writes of her experience.

Tanya Levin Hillsong Brian Houston

Tanya Levin, the woman Hillsong is set out to destroy.

Tanya Levin reports,

Getting even more banned from the place where Everyone’s Welcome


It was about midday on the 8th of September and I was just about to go out. I heard a man call out “Hello?” and I went to the door. There’s lots of construction going on in my block so there’s lots of tradespeople around.

There stood a man who was wearing a leather jacket and he had a couple of papers in his hand. He sort of looked around and said he had a letter for me. He didn’t ask who I was or for any ID. He handed me a piece of paper with a Hillsong logo on the top. Its title was Banning Notice.

He showed me the email he had been sent with his instructions. He said he’d just come from Sydney which is about an hour and a half from my house, depending on which part of Sydney you mean.

“All the way just for me?” I asked him. “Yes,” he said. The email had said he would be paid $132. It was from Hillsong legal. Tim someone.

He told me that he had nothing to do with either party and that I probably wanted to shred the paper. Hardly. “You’ve probably had lots of dealings with this guy,” he said. “No actually”, I told him. He had called himself a court processing server, but he produced no ID either. Still, he didn’t seem to really know what was going on.

We shook hands and said our goodbyes, and I came inside and started shaking. I don’t know why. Maybe because I hadn’t slept enough the night before. Maybe because I was just about to go shopping and this was out of the blue. Maybe because the document just didn’t make sense to me at all.  And I wound up crying a lot. These things can affect you in different ways.

After my arrest on 1 July, this year, which is something I’ll be talking much more about soon, there’s no way I have any interest in darkening their doorsteps any time soon. As it was I had not been near any Hillsong branches in over ten years, so there seems no need to remind me.

What is puzzling me most is the similarity to the original ‘banning notice’ from 2005, which I dug up recently from an eon ago.

Who writes these things? Why have they used the same phrase ‘significant disruption’ again? What does this even mean? All it does it reinforce a tag line I can use at a later date.

But as I’ve always wanted to know, How could you cause significant disruption at Hillsong, unless maybe you were Justin Bieber. They still can’t name the deeds of which I am accused. But they seem to really like the wording. Ten years later.

Do I honestly have to go and help with their PR machine because it’s really, really bad?

The author of this letter, George Aghajanian, has been the General Manager and Brian Houston’s right hand man for a long time now. He was also a friend of my dad’s. After he signed off on the first letter above in 2005, he called my dad up and said, “So, what do you know about a book?”

These people will send your daughter a banning letter and call you up in the same breath and pretend to be your pal. Maybe that’s why I cried. Same shonkiness. Different decade.

Don’t trust them with anything, most of all writing official letters. As a dear funny friend of mine wrote on Facebook, “For people with all that money to spend on plastic surgery, you’d think they’d spend money on real lawyers.”

Weird. There wasn’t even an envelope for the paperwork.

Some people have called it intimidation and harassment. I don’t know but it felt creepy. And I’ve got a feeling this isn’t going to make sense any time soon.

Oh and yes, you are all welcome to attend Burwood Local Court on 1 October to see me on trial for trespass. #asweforgivethose :)

Source: Tanya Levin, Getting even more banned from the place where Everyone’s Welcome, Tany Levin,, 10/09/2015. (Accessed 17/09/2015.)

Hillsong cult bullies Tanya Levin & again slanders her for causing “significant disruption”


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Tanya Levin just released a new letter she received from Hillsong cult elder, George Aghajanian.

Royal Commission - George Aghajanian

Notice the false accusation made by Hillsong in this letter where they say Levin “caused significant disruption to the meetings you attended”.

“We refer to your prior attendance at Hillsong Church and associated conferences where you have caused significant disruption to the meetings you attended.

As a result of your conduct, we require that you immediately and permanently cease to enter any of our Church properties or any property that is hired or utilized for the purposes of facilitating a Church event or activity.

– Your right as a member of the public to enter into any of our private premises is unequivocally withdrawn;

– You are not permitted to enter any of our Church properties;

– If you choose to ignore this notice and enter any of our Church properties or events, we will ask you to leave and further reserve the right to pursue an action for trespass. We may immediately notify the police of your breach of this Banning Notice;

– For the purpose of clarification, Church properties include any property associated with the religious services or administration of Hillsong Church, including but not limited to buildings located at 1-5 Solent Circuit, Baulkham Hills NSW 2153.

You may be also prosecuted should you fail to comply with this Banning Notice.


George Aghajanian
General Manager


This level of integrity displayed fom Hillsong does not surprise us. In fact, we’re expecting another defaming and unChristian article from Hillsong’s propaganda “Bible” Society rag against Tanya Levin.

Let the sledge BEGIN!

Let the sledge BEGIN!

Jordan Hall calls out Brian Houston & Carl Lentz as liars and Hillsong for not being a church


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[Edit 28/08/2015 12:15pm: corrected the article and removed individuals name. We sincerely apologise for publishing this information and will make an effort to make sure information given to us will be scrutinized more thoroughly.]

Jordan Hall rightly calls out the bullying, the lies and disgusting slander Carl Lentz and Brian Houston pulled on Christianity in this below episode of Pulpit&Pen.

Hall played the audio of Brian Houston the previous year, exposing the fact that Houston lied in his recent media statement in regards to the Broadway Couple’s sexual status and Hillsong leadership status. Hall then reads out the Religious News Service story that only acted as a propaganda piece to further Hillsong and allow Carl Lentz to launch a disgraceful, slanderous and malicious attack on Christian churches who do not align themselves to the Hillsong way of doing church (40:00).

Carl Lentz maliciously slandering Christian churches like his leader

Carl Lentz maliciously slandering Christian churches like his leader.

Jordan Hall points out how Carl Lentz falsely accuses the Christian church for killing homosexuals. And how Carl Lentz then uses this disgraceful attack to imply that these churches are not churches at all.

Pulpit & Pen report:

Podcast: Mohler Discusses Openly Secular – Awkward

[Link to download podcast]

In today’s episode of Pulpit & Pen, JD answers a few sincere questions and then plays audio from Albert Mohler discussing Openly Secular’s role in a football star “coming out of the closet” as an atheist – which his colleague, SEBTS President Danny Akin endorsed. Awkward. Then, JD discusses Hillsong’s “smoking gun” and attempts to sanitize Hillsong’s Downgrade.

As always, you can listen above or download and listen from SermonAudio or iTunes by clicking the links below.

Source: Jordan Hall, Podcast: Mohler Discusses Openly Secular – Awkward, Pulpit&Pen,, Published 11/08/2015. (Accessed 24/08/2015.)

Rosebrough exposes Hillsong’s copy/paste statement of beliefs as a sham?


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Chris Rosebrough from Fighting for the Faith recently tackled Hillsong’s statement of beliefs in light of the Broadway couple controversy.

Chris Rosebrough writes,

Questions for Hillsong’s Leadership RE: Repentance & Homosexuality

I have questions regarding Hillsong’s doctrinal statement and how it relates to recent statements made by Hillsong’s leadership as it pertains to homosexual sins.

The Hillsong Church’s Statement of Beliefs (online source) clearly states:

We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.

Hillsong believes that a person (regardless of their sins) can receive forgiveness of their sins and the new birth through repentance and belief in Jesus Christ. This repentance then is demonstrated through a person’s submission to God’s revealed will, i.e. abandoning their sin and bearing fruit in keeping with their repentance.

That being the case, Hillsong’s Statement of Beliefs conversely teach that an impenitent sinner (regardless of their sins) does not receive forgiveness of their sins and the new birth. One of the sure signs of impenitence would then logically have to be an openly sinful lifestyle that is marked by open rebellion to God’s revealed will for our lives.

Since scripture is explicitly clear that homosexuality is sinful in both thought (Rom 1:24–27, Jude 1:7) and deed (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9–10, Jude 1:7), a person who claims to be a Christian who is openly and proudly participating in a same-sex relationship is, by definition, impenitent and should not be considered a Christian, yet alone a “devout Christian”.

Therefore, how can it possibly be loving to homosexuals (since dying in impenitence results in spending eternity in Hell), faithful to the scriptures and in obedience to Christ and His Word, for Hillsong to not boldly and publicly proclaim that homosexuality is a sin and call homosexuals to repent and receive Christ’s forgiveness and the new birth and then submit to God’s will for their lives, as their Statement of Beliefs so clearly says is necessary for salvation?

Is Hillsong’s Statement of Beliefs a sham? What’s the point of having a Statement of Beliefs if you don’t publicly preach and practice in accordance with what it says?

χάρις ἔλεος εἰρήνη σοι,


Source: By Chris Rosebrough, Questions for Hillsong’s Leadership RE: Repentance & Homosexuality, Fighting for the Faith,, Accessed 19/08/2015.

Timeline of events: The Brian, the “church” and the closet


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For years, Hillsong has been vague on their stances on various issues. Whenever questioned or confronted on clear Christian stances, they play word games to weasel their way out of giving direct biblical answers. Even before the controversial story of Joshua Canfield and Reed Kelly broke out, Hillsong have already created distrust among Christians due to their postmodern obfuscation tactics.

So when this story broke, it wasn’t very surprising for many Christians to find that Hillsong had homosexuals in positions of leadership. However, this did confirm to many Christians that both homosexual, Christians and the global community cannot trust Hillsong, even if their life depended on it.

Josh Canfield Reed Kelly Hillsong United

The main issue here isn’t that there are homosexuals leading worship at Hillsong, (although that is a byproduct of it). The problem is the fact that Hillsong still refuses to handle God’s Word faithfully and stand for the things God stands for. And worse still, because of Hillsong’s rejection of the bible, they still have the audacity to call themselves a ‘church’ or ‘Christian’.

The reason why Christiansor non-Christians, homosexuals or heterosexuals are abused and destroyed by Hillsong is because of their lack of transparency, integrity and honesty. Putting it bluntly – truth is absent. And because the spirit of Hillsong is not based on the Spirit of Truth, the abuse will get worse.

The issue in all this is that Hillsong is a house of liars, being built on liars and being defended by liars. And when you see how they reacted against Christians, the facts, the biblical stance on same sex issues and how they went behind the scenes to save face over the recent same-sex controversy – one help can’t wonder if anyone can hold them accountable to future sins or crimes.

We put this timeline together to ask these glaring questions:

1. Would Hillsong have been in this mess if they were upfront and honest to begin with?
2. Do you think Brian Houston really had the homosexual couple in mind when he wrote that media statement, or do you think he was trying to save his own skin?
3. The secular media reported on the same sex couple attending Hillsong and when they got engaged. Hillsong was silent when that broke. But when Christians discernment websites accurately reported it using the information available and confronted it using clear Biblical passages, Hillsong was quick to condemn them. Why were they so quick to issue a statement against the clear Biblical responses?
4. If Brian does lean towards traditional Christianity and to the teachings of the Apostle Paul, why issue a statement at all? Why not just apologize and deal with it using Biblical standards?
Why did James White, Dr. Brown and Saiko Woods believe the information available was wrong to begin with? (It looks like the common factor between the three is Carl Lentz.)
6. Why was the Christian media (EIC) so slow to write about this; and when they did, why were they so quick to cast stones at those who were doing the Christian media’s job?


29/07/2015 at 8:50 Date the article was given to us on FaceBook.

FaceBook Post

29/07/2015 Date we broke the article.

Now THIS is sexy entertainment!

29/07/2015, 8:05 Date and time Chris Rosebrough broke the story.

“Famous Gay Couple, who attend Hillsong NYC claim to be devoted Christians, volunteer with Hillsong’s choir AND say they’ll remain abstinent until marriage.” [Edited]

29/07/2015 Date and time Chris Rosebrough broke the story on radio.

The Absalom Spirit? **Link Fixed**

02/08/2015 Date when NowTheEndBegins (NTEB) broke their story.

Hillsong NYC Church Has An ‘Engaged’ Openly Homosexual Couple Leading The Choir

0Date Stand Up For The Truth (SUFTT) shared the NTEB story.

UPDATE: Hillsong issues statement 8 months after worship leader announces his upcoming homosexual marriage

(No date when update was made.)
We noticed what SUFTT noticed: “Today, less than 24 hours after this story published, finally, Hillsong issues a press release.)

03-04/08/2015.. Hillsong released their press release.

Hillsong media statement.

04/08/2015 Date and time Chris Rosebrough continued the story on radio.

Mike Murdock Likes Onions On His Tacos

05/08/2015 Date Jordan Hall released story on his blog.

Rosebrough on Hillsong and Homosexuality

05/08/2015 Date James White came onto the subject.

Seer Stones, Hillsong Church, and KJVOnly Deceitfulness

05/08/2015 Date SamSame published an article on the Broadway Couple.

Hillsong Church “surprised” by engaged choir couple

06/08/2015 Date Chris Rosebrough further researched this story on radio.

Postmodern Language Games

06/08/2015 9:30am Edited Date & Time Michael Brown launched smear campaign against Christian (Charisma News).

Hillsong, Homosexuality, Internet Rumors and Spiritual Clarity

07/08/2015 Date Jordan Hall weighed in on this issue.

Hillsong and Homosexuality: The Real Story

07/08/2015 11:31am Date & Time Michael Brown launched smear campaign against (Christian Post).

Hillsong Homosexuality, Internet Rumors, and Spiritual Clarity

08/08/2015 Pulpit and Pen add further commentary.

Oh, You Didn’t Know? Hillsong and the Broadway Boyfriends

08/08/2015 Pulpit and Pen break news on Homosexual couple’s statement.

Homosexual Couple Contradicts Brian Houston

08/08/2015 Pulpit and Pen Discuss Hillsong controversy on radio.

Podcast: Hillsong and Discernment

09/08/2015 Date Jordan Hall called out Brian Houston on his media statement.

The Smoking Gun: Brian Houston Acknowledges Ministry of Gay Couple at Hillsong NYC – on video – Back in 2014

10/08/2015 Date Jonathan Merritt promotes Carl Lentz lies and smears Christians.

Why Survivor’s ‘Broadway Boyfriends’ will keep singing with Hillsong Church

There are some articles in the above timeline we know we have missed. If you have any articles and dates you would like to add to this timeline that you think are important, please email:

*Twitter conversations not included.

Rosebrough’s interviews with ex-Hillsong insiders Elisabeth & Tanya Levin


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While his Pirate Christian Radio conference was on, Chris Rosebrough (from Fighting for the Faith), had two insightful interviews with two ex-Hillsong members.

His first interview was with Elisabeth from Oslo, her testimony how her church was taken over by Hillsong.

The Power of the Pulse?

Click Here to Download this episode

Program segments:

• T.D. Jakes and the Power of the Pulse
• Nicole Crank and You’ve Got a Dirty Mind
• Steven Furtick – Uses and Abuses Mark 5
• Interview with Elizabeth from Norway RE: Her Time at a Mega-Church that Joined Hillsong

Source: Chris Rosebrough, The Power of the Pulse?, Fighting for the Faith,, Published 27/07/2015. (Accessed 05/08/2015.)

You can read Elisabeth’s series of articles here on ChurchWatch Central:

Hillsong Insider (Part 1): “My exit out of a mega church… Never to return again”
Hillsong Insider (Part 2): “The Hillsong Takeover of a Norwegian Charismatic Mega Church”
Hillsong Insider (Part 3): “Secrecy is a Hillsong trademark”

His second interview was with Tanye Levin from Australia, her testimony how her church was taken over by Hillsong.

Tanya Levin Hillsong Brian Houston

Tanya Levin – author of People in Glass Houses

Here is the interview between Chris Rosebrough and Tanya Levin.

The Absalom Spirit? **Link Fixed**

Click Here to Download this episode

Program segments:

• Prophecy Open Mic
• Jim Bakker & Bishop Ron Webb and the Absalom Spirit in Leadership
• Kelly Dykstra Twirls the Story of the Fall
• Hillsong NYC’s Famous Gay Couple
• Interview with Tanya Levin

Source: Chris Rosebrough, The Absalom Spirit? **Link Fixed**, Fighting for the Faith,, 29/07/2015. (Accessed 05/08/2015.)

You can read more on Tanya Levin’s ongoing stories here:

Denton Interviews Levins On Hillsong: “I was detoxed from toxic Christianity”
Is Hillsong A Cult?
The LiveLoveLead Society versus the bible-wielding Tanya Levin over the mole’s Hillsong
Brian Houston’s Inclusive Jesus rejects Tanya Levin
Hillsong’s “trespasser” releases information on charges
Which “tabloid trash” do you believe? (UPDATED)
The Issues With Hillsong
Rumblings and ramblings in the Royal Commission

Discussions with Carl Lentz


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Recently we posted an article explaining how we are concerned that Carl Lentz had made misleading statements to Dr. James White about Hillsong’s position on the acceptance of gay people within the Hillsong Community. Our unease stemmed from a recent episode of The Dividing Line in which Dr. White discusses some email interaction he had with Carl Lentz, and his concerns about a recent statement made by Brian Houston about the inclusion of unrepentant homosexuals as congregation members of Hillsong Church.

Source: James White, Seer Stones, Hillsong Church, and KJVOnly Deceitfulness, Alpha & Omega Ministries,, 26:17-27:50, Published 05/08/2015. (Accessed 10/08/2015.)

In this episode, Dr. White demonstrates that both Brian Houston and Carl Lentz have made contradictory statements about Hillsong’s position (e.g. that gay people are not allowed to be in positions of leadership, yet current news reports show that they are in fact in leadership positions). The transcript of Dr. White’s program is at the end of this piece.

Carl responded to our article with the following comment at ChurchWatch Central:

Hi! I actually don’t have a YouTube channel, so that’s unfortunate here in regards to your attempt to discredit me. Hard for me to upload videos on a site I don’t actually have. Make sure you do just a little bit of homework before you build your attack, might make it a little more believable. James white is a respectable man, who actually called to check facts. What’s funny is he actually talks about people like you the podcast you posted! Hilarious. In your eagneress to tear down, don’t rush the fact checking part. God bless you!

Carl Lentz: guy who has no YouTube channel.

Source: Carl Lentz (guy who says guy who has no YouTube channel), Church Watch Central,, Published 11/08/2015. (Accessed 11/08/2015.)

Carl Lentz also sent the following tweet to his followers on Twitter:

I don’t have a personal YouTube channel. If there is one, I have zero control of what’s on there and have never looked. God bless America!!

Source: Carl Lentz, Published 10/07/2015 (Accessed 11/08/2015.)

proof_TwitterLentzProtestsYoutubeAccount_11-08-2015While we make every attempt to be accurate in our articles, we are more than willing to take on board Dr. White’s exhortation to research carefully and check facts. Therefore we accept Carl Lentz’ assurance that he does not have a YouTube channel. [Doing further homework we found that Carl Lentz responded to another person back in June saying he doesn’t have a YouTube account.]

That’s Funny I don’t have a YouTube channel, a podcast or anything! But I’m glad you were encouraged by it, God bless!

Source: Carl Lentz, Twitter,, Published 25/06/2015 (Accessed 11/08/2015.)


The YouTube channel in question does bear Carl Lentz’ name, and clearly has fooled a number of people who have left comments and even tweeted to Carl how much they appreciated his sermons. Due to this confusion we would like answers from Carl Lentz to the following questions:

1. Since you claim not to own a youtube channel, why are you discrediting Church Watch rather than going after the person (or persons) posting videos under your name?

2. On 25/06/2015 you posted on Twitter “That’s Funny I don’t have a YouTube channel, a podcast or anything! But I’m glad you were encouraged by it, God bless!” There is someone posting videos in your name and falsely representing you. It is currently the month of August. Why have you not fixed this problem yet?

3. It’s not uncommon for a pastor to give the job of creating a youtube channel and uploading the Pastor’s sermons to someone else. Our homework has always taught us to parse your words. Is it not reasonable to conclude that although you do not have a personal youtube account, someone else you know runs it?

4. Our most important question to you is this: When will you speak or write about your Biblical stance on homosexuality in a clear, unambiguous way that is backed up by Scripture thus proving you believe it by not having unrepentant homosexuals in positions of leadership or in any position within any and all Hillsong churches?

5. We would encourage you to start doing your own homework. Have you investigated what has emerged in the Royal Commission involving Brian Houston and his father’s crimes? Click here for homework.

We apologize for any error made in regards to this matter.

However, what is gravely concerning is that Carl Lentz chose to focus on this error rather than address his own grievous sin in allowing unrepentant homosexuals membership and leadership positions at Hillsong NYC. We are also amazed that he would raise such a minor error, rather than address what came to light in Dr White’s program. That is the blatantly contradictory and deceptive statements currently being made by both Carl and Brian Houston in relation to the context in which unrepentant homosexuals are allowed to participate in the Hillsong Church community, worship and leadership. Hillsong claims to be part of the body of Christ, and claims to hold to the biblical position on marriage and homosexuality. But their practices clearly show that this is not at all true.

This is the real issue: If Hillsong pastors such as Carl and Brian allow homosexual people to be church members, without calling them to repentance, then they are leading people to hell for eternity.

Josh Canfield Reed Kelly Hillsong United

It is grievous to us here at Church Watch Central, and to the body of Christ at large, that Carl and Brian would allow people to remain dead in their trespasses and sins, believing themselves to be reconciled to God when they are not. That is why we are raising these issues and exposing the deception that continues to abound in the Hillsong empire. We care deeply about the souls of these people who are being deceived by Hillsong and its “pastors”.

If at times we err in our zeal to warn others, then we are truly sorry and take to heart Dr. White’s rebuke. But sadly, Carl Lentz has chosen to ignore these issues and instead has just created a distraction from matters far more egregious and soul destroying than whether he does or doesn’t have a YouTube Channel.

Because we cite all of our sources we fail to fall into Dr. James White’s category. However, we would encourage you to start doing your own homework.

We look forward to Carl Lentz’ response.

God Bless.

James White

TRANSCRIPT – Dr James White: Alpha and Omega Ministries || 5 Aug 2015.

Dr James White: “Popped in the channel and there was a discussion about what was going on in Twitter. And what was going on in Twitter was a discussion of Carl Lentz and the Hillsong Church in New York. And of course there’s the stuff of Brian Houston, who is the big Hillsong leader out of Australia. And basically the two sides were talking past each other unfortunately.

Um, what I was concerned about the whole thing was the accuracy of the articles that have been distributed. I started seeing them a few days ago and they came up every once in a while but there was a new spate of them in regards to Carl Lentz and comments about homosexuality.

Now I’m a Reformed Baptist. My ecclesiology is significantly more developed shall we say, and traditional, and historical than Hillsong ecclesiologies, as we are going to see here in a moment.

I am obviously not a fan of ‘seeker sensitivity’ or anything like that at all. The church is the Body of Christ, it is where God is worshiped in Holiness. There is to be church discipline. There is to be a call for Holy living. The church is not to look like the world, act like the world. The world should be very uncomfortable as Paul said, an unbeliever comes in should be convicted by whats going on.

So what really bugged me about the Twitter debate that was going on, was one side was saying, ‘look you need to check the sources. You need to be accurate in the facts that your using. You may be right in your conclusions, you may say you know these folks, they’ve got some serious problems here and we need to be careful about what’s going on here and this seems to be symptomatic of that. That’s one thing, but you have to do so accurately, you’ve got to make sure of your facts, you can’t be making, ‘well it looks like I think they went to a Conference one, this person was there and therefore…’ And-‘ you’ve got all these connections being made.

No one should be surprised that I’ve got a problem with inaccuracy and use of information because, am I not the guy who sits here for half an hour talking about being careful in talking about Muhammad and Niesha, or the history of the Koran or etc, etc, etc?

Yeh. That’s- that’s me. The same guy.

So I would think you would need to be just as careful in talking about these issues – (And what had happened was, I almost talked about this on Monday but we did we did the Radio Fee Geneva, so I couldn’t fit it in) – but I had seen a quote attributed to Carl Lentz, in one of the articles going around saying, ‘ah see Hillsong’s collapsing on homosexuality and here’s how it’s happening’ and so on and so forth and when I read it, it was the standard ‘Jesus never said anything about homosexuality stuff.’ And I’m like, I have decimated that argument so many times on this program and I’ve told people, I’ve said to people that if you hear anybody saying, ‘Jesus never addressed homosexuality’, that person is either deceptive or ignorant or both, but it can’t be neither.

And. So. I don’t always do this, I don’t have a big black book of contacts and email. But some of you will remember that September of last year I think, almost a year ago, Carl Lentz contacted us. I made some comments about something I had seen, it was actually a video as I recall at that point. I played the video and I said, ‘I’ve got a problem with this and here’s why.’ Well somebody sent it to Carl Lentz and he wrote through the contact page.

And so I had an email. We had actually exchanged some emails back and forth. And so I, you know, did the standard search thing and pulled up an email and I said, ‘Yeah! I’m going to ask him,’ because there was no attribution in the article.

He didn’t say where it was from.

It had a ‘he said’ at the end.

Well okay, I don’t trust it. Especially the sources, you know if it’s like Huff Post, CNN and whatever else, ‘he said’ means nothing. They may have strung those words together from three hours worth of conversation, but anyway.

Other host: “That Contact by the way, came through on October 28 2014”.

Dr James White: “Okay. October, so last year.

And so I wrote. And I said- I gave the quote and said, ‘Is this accurate?’

And he wrote back fairly quickly and said, ‘Who is this?’

And I wrote back and said, ‘Well you contacted us last year. Alpha Omega Ministries. We saw this quotation. It’s unattributed. Before I comment on it, I would like to know if you actually said this’.

And he was very appreciative of that and said, ‘I’m taking my girls to their dance lessons [or whatever it was], I’ll get back to you,’ and said, ‘I’ll get back to you faster than that’. And so he did. And we’ve gone back and forth.

And in fact I have here- this is from yesterday- you know- I- we went back and forth and I said, ‘Can I quote you as saying- ‘quote’ (and this is a quote from him):

‘What Jesus often did explicitly outline as you well know, is marriage between a man and a woman. I made that point clearly in an interview and that was edited out. Our church has never wavered, ever on our clear stance on what is Biblical marriage or Biblical sexuality for that matter.’

Alright? Now we’ve continued [inaudible] going back and forth cause I found some more quotes.

And he said, ‘Look I would not say it the way that I said it. You know this was CNN.’ And I’m like, ‘Yeah! I know CNN now! Been there done that! Got the t-shirt. And man, you’ve got a- you’ve got to go straight for the heart, if your on CNN. You can not try to make yourself look nice to these folks, it’s not possible. You’ve got to go straight to it and press it.

And- so we’ve gone back and forth.

I basically said, ‘look Jesus did address this issue when He used the term porneia. There is no-one that I have ever found anywhere- I don’t care if it’s Boswell, [inaudible names], it doesn’t matter who it is, Vines, I’ve never found anyone who’s even started to make a meaningful argument- that in the context of second temple Judaism, in the context of the Gospel writers, that porneia would not have included homosexuality. I’ve never seen anyone even try to argue it because anybody who knows anything about that time period, knows that porneia when it was written by Paul, when it was written by Matthew, was written by Mark, included homosexuality. There’s no question about it! None!

So when someone says, ‘Jesus never addressed this issue’, they’re just ignorant, they just don’t know what they’re talking about.

And Carl says, ‘I know that. I agree. It was a combination of my not speaking clearly enough and them not following up with what I said afterwards where I said those things.’

So, you know. Okay I hear you. Got it. Alright.

I tried to be- if I’m going to criticise, I want to try to be fair, and I want to try to be accurate. And the fact is, there are sources amongst conservative Christians that are trusted that shouldn’t be. We re-post stuff that isn’t always overally accurate.

And my concern was exactly that. My concern was exactly that. Because, these are important issues. And when we are not- when we don’t do our homework and we just go with the twelve-gate shotgun blast from the start, we may think we are doing the Elijah thing. But in reality we are only hurting ourselves. Because then people can just focus on that and not focus upon what the real issue is.”

Now I’m not saying that even when you focus upon the real issue that people are necessary, sadly going to listen to what you have to say but it’s worth the shot.

But then in the middle of all of this, Brian Houston who speaks more for Hillsong than Carl Lentz does, puts out- I think yesterday- […] an article called ‘Do I love gay people?’.

[Quoting Brian Houston’s statement] ‘Because I also live by my own convictions, hold to traditional Christian thought on lifestyles and gay marriage…’. Now could I just say, if we, if we have a passionate love for God’s truth, if we really believe that it is divine truth, (that God has made us in a certain way, that we have the owner’s manual, that the Creator has specific purposes and therefore our lives would be experienced, there’s basics here, you know if you don’t get the basic’s right there’s not going to be anything up the road), if we really believe that, it’s going to influence how we speak.

And it seems to me, that we need to really be putting some thought into how we can speak with more clarity about these subjects. It sounds like, well yeh I’ve got my convictions, I do the traditional Christian you know. It’s like we’ve already been beaten into the ‘I’m sorry don’t through things at me’, rather than ‘I believe in actual marriage and I believe that this is divine truth and this is vitally important and this is exciting and it’s worth living for’. There’s a big difference between those two, big difference. But anyways.

‘…The writings of the apostle Paul in scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear…’ Good to hear! Lot’s of folks are telling us the opposite of that. Just the opposite of that.

‘…as I have mentioned in previous public statements. Hillsong Church welcomes ALL people but does not affirm all lifestyles. Put clearly, we do not affirm a gay lifestyle and because of this we do not knowingly have actively gay people-‘ (now here’s where I’m confused), ‘we do not knowingly have actively gay people in positions of leadership, either paid or unpaid.’

Foul, blow the whistle, what?!

See here’s where ecclesiology comes into view. Here’s where your doctrines of church comes into view.

Because later on, here’s what it says later on, ‘… so if your a gay are you welcome at Hillsong Church? Of course! You are welcome to attend, worship with us, and participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community. But (this is where it gets vexing), can you take an active leadership role? No. This won’t make everyone happy and to some, this stance may even be seen as hypocritical. We are a gay welcoming church but we are not a church that affirms a gay lifestyle…’

Excuse me! Time out! The poor little Reformed Baptist is confused. [laughs]

Yeh, um, so do you have a church membership role? Do you have a Statement of faith? How can you be a member of the congregation, a part of the community, while living a lifestyle that the church says is sinful and just won’t allow into leadership, but will allow in the church? Is that what I’m reading?

If it is, here’s where ecclesiology comes into it, because you see, there are some people who view church incrementally. You bring people in. We’re inclusive. Open. We’re loving. You bring people in. And then over time you sort of hope that they are going to start seeing that selling those drugs is a bad thing, the gang-banging is a bad thing. You might loose a few members in the process. You know before they really get that idea, but hey you know. It’s this inclusive, incremental thing slowly get them, you know.

The church is called holy!

It’s made up of Saints!

I mean again, 1 Corinthians verse 5: “you have a man who’s had his own father’s wife.” It’s incest. You should have known better. It’s right there in Leviticus 18. CAST HIM OUT! Right?

So do you bring people into the congregation in incestuous relationships? Hey your part of the community, have some Lord’s supper, hey you know. But you can’t be in leadership until you stop that incestuous stuff. What??

Ok maybe this is just a really, really badly written thing and I’m completely missing. But it seems to me that um we have a really fundamental problem here in um- ‘worship with us.’

Well I thought we were to worship in holiness and that there was to be repentance. Doesn’t the church gather, repentance, proclamation of God’d truth, brings repentance and holiness so that we can worship in spirit and in truth? Do we want people who are unrepentant? Isn’t the constant prayer, ‘may your words shine into our hearts to show us what we need to repent of?’

So if you don’t tell people what you stand for then how can there be any meaningful unity in worship? I’m completely lost at this point. I really am. I don’t get it.

So, ‘worship with us and participate as a congregation member’, what does that mean? Sing? partake of the Lord’s supper? Are unrepentant, practicing homosexuals allowed to partake of the Lord’s supper in Hillsong Church? Baahhh but you can’t be a leader! So what? Who cares?

I think leadership is drawn out of the congregation anyways. I mean if you start making up rules like this to where- have we not seen this in so many of the mainline denominations?You know whats the big thing-? You know, all these half way measures where, ‘Well, you know as long as your a celibate homosexual, then you can be a Bishop.’ And how long did that last? You know before, ‘well we can’t do that, they have to be able to express their love and blah blah blah blah’.

You’re creating a Clergy Laity distinction that New Testament knows nothing about here in [glitch] moral standard here.

No, the standard for membership in the church is called regeneration, ah isn’t it? Repentance, baptism you know that stuff. So are these folks baptized? Will you baptize unrepentant practicing homosexuals? How else do you become a member of the church? Or is there no membership role at all? I mean that wouldn’t surprise me because that’s the Calvary Chapel model. The Calvary Chapel model’s no membership, that’s why you have no church discipline. I’m not sure how your suppose to shepherd the sheep that you don’t know who are in your flock, but there you go. Umm… wow.

This is what happens when you don’t have a Statement of faith, when you don’t have a sound ecclesiology. It’s um- it’s a mess.

So I don’t get it. I don’t get how you can say on the one side one thing and then on the other side you turn around and your saying, ‘Hey! You know, you’re welcome to come to Hillsong church, participate as a congregation member with the assurance that you are personally included and accepted within our community, only thing you can’t do is be a leader.’

Would that count for shacking up with your girlfriend or girlfriends, boyfriends, girlfriends whatever? So the only difference between the people of the church and leaders is that leaders actually have to be repentant, people of the church don’t? I don’t get it, I don’t get it, but there you go. There you go. Great confusion. […]

Host voice: ‘The next step in being a member as I understand it is, you have a say in calling of leadership’.

Dr James White: ‘Maybe’.

Other host: ‘Would they be allowed to vote for leadership and calling of a Pastor’?

Dr James White: ‘I don’t know. I do not know, I do not know. But there you go’.

So what I’m calling for. Katie Hall said to me, ‘I don’t understand why all these reformed people are defending Hillsong.’ Katie, it’s not a matter of defending Hillsong. It’s a matter of saying you need to be accurate in your criticisms for them to be lasting and meaningful criticism, that’s the point.

We can see the problem but isn’t it interesting that on both this and the prior situation, who got to actual heart of the matter by being careful about the criticism [raises hands]. That’s my point. That’s my point. Got to be careful. You’ve got to do your homework. That’s my point.’

Source: James White, Seer Stones, Hillsong Church, and KJVOnly Deceitfulness, Alpha & Omega Ministries,, 26:17-27:50, Published 05/08/2015. (Accessed 10/08/2015.)

Brian Houston exposes Brian Houston lying


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“For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men.” 1Corinthians 3:19-21a

Not only did we catch Brian Houston lying again in his media statement,

Brian Houston admits he can offer “no great answer” on gay stance (Part 1)

not only did gay couple Reed Kelly and Joshua Canfield expose Brian Houston lying in his media statement,

Ben Gresham exposes Houston lying in his media statement

not only did Ben Gresham catch Brian Houston lying in his recent blog article,

Josh Canfield & Reed Kelly expose Hillsong leadership lying about their stance on same sex issues

but Brian Houston has exposed himself lying back in in his media statement.

[Click to download video]

Not Your Granddad’s Church: Hillsong Church Mixes Sermons With Rock Concerts

Every Sunday, thousands of people gather in New York City to get in line for a church service that is full of hand-raising, heart-thumping, hipster-style Christianity.

That is Hillsong Church. Their followers, which include celebrities like Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant, are mostly 20-somethings, many of whom grew up in church, but are drawn to Hillsong’s style and substance. In this “come as you are” congregation, tattoos and leather jackets are welcome for a 90-minute experience that’s part rock concert and part gospel.

The pastor leading Hillsong New York is 36-year-old Carl Lentz, who comes with Brad Pitt looks and Billy Graham theology, and has enough tattoos to make a rapper blush. He is even the New York Knicks’ official chaplain on the road.

“We aren’t trying to have this cool trendy packed church,” Lentz said. “The story is not the clothes people wear. It’s the lives they lead.”

In short, this is not your granddaddy’s church.

Hillsong New York was started four years ago and is now the church’s United States flagship. They host close to 8,000 people over six Sunday services in a rented New York City theater, but in years past, Hillsong has met in nightclubs.

With very few paid staff, the church relys on an army of 20-something-aged volunteers. Some members said Hillsong helped them overcome addiction or reconnect with their faith. Others said the weekday community service work and small group meetings provided both a connection and purpose.

“This generation has seen multiple wars, seen things no one expected,” Lentz said. “It seems like a pretty tumultuous time in culture, and I think the response to that has been the really shallow world of social media. A real smoke and mirrors way of living … so you come into church and there is a realness to it.”

Hillsong Church was started in Sydney, Australia, 30 years ago by Pastor Brian Houston, and has grown into a worldwide Christian phenomenon, with satellite outposts across the globe from London and Paris to Kiev and Cape Town.

“If you walked into all of them you would see a similar demographic of people,” Houston said. “You could close your eyes and think I am in any one of our Hillsong churches anywhere in the world.”

For many in their flock, the church’s Christian rock music group, Hillsong United, is a huge draw to come to services.

“Definitely the initial draw for many, many people,” Houston said. “We started singing and writing songs in our church and we were surprised when they started singing them in other churches in Australia and then suddenly for those songs to be sung all around the world like they are now… it’s something that God has given us as an arrow to a bigger message.”

Hillsong United is one of the hottest bands on Earth. With hits like “Oceans,” and “Break Free” Hillsong United has sold over 16 million albums worldwide, playing to packed venues across the globe and is now nominated for its first American Music Award this year.

Joel Houston, the son of Pastor Brian Houston, is co-lead pastor in New York but also guides Hillsong United.

“Music has the incredible ability to break down walls and to reach people’s hearts. It was given to us by God for the very purpose of worship,” he said.

But when asked how vital the money is that the music brings into the church, which is a non-profit, Brian Houston didn’t give a straight answer.

“To be honest I really genuinely can’t answer the exact amount [of annual revenue],” he said. “Of course we are a non-profit so all of the finances come into the non-profit and are used for the ministry.

Like many mega churches, Hillsong is shy about discussing their finances and how much money they bring in. At the service “Nightline” attended in New York, they asked us not to film the offertory.

“The fact that these lights are on, these chairs are here, it’s because single mom’s young couples, young people, single people, older couples, believe in the cause,” Lentz said. “So the collective sacrifice of many is what you see in our church.”

And also like many mega-churches, Hillsong has not escaped scandal. Fifteen years ago, Brian Houston discovered that his father, who was also a pastor, was being accused of sexually assaulting a child.

“We received a complaint that my father had abused children, males, and you can imagine that was the hardest day of my life to find out that my hero was a pedaphile,” Houston said.

As a leader for his denomination, Houston said he removed his father from the ministry immediately. He said he later came under attack for not alerting the police. Houston’s father died in 2004.

Brian Houston recently testified before an Australian commission investigating institutional sexual assault to try to prevent it from happening.

“It brings all of that rawness back to the surface pretty quick,” he said. “Just accepting that my father has devastated and destroyed the lives of children is just a really hard thing to accept.”

While Hillsong seems like a “hip and modern” church, some of its beliefs are quite Christian conservative. One area critics, both liberal and conservative, have seized upon is the church’s stance on social issues like homosexuality.

“We see it as a conversation,” Brian Houston said. “It’s quite clear in the New Testament the apostle Paul describes homosexuality as a sin and I can’t un-write the bible… but on the other hand we are not a church that can just make big blanket sweeping statements that dismiss people.”

When asked what the pastor would say if a gay couple walked into Hillsong, Houston said, “the short answer is I think all of us need to be changing. So that’s what serving Jesus does.”

“We would never be the kind of church who when people joined the choir asked them are you heterosexual? Are you homosexual? We will never be that kind of church,” he added. “I think it was Billy Graham who said it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge and it’s our job to love.”

Another part of Hillsong’s job, as Pastor Brian sees it, is growth. His son Ben Houston just opened Hillsong Los Angeles, and already long lines are forming for Sunday services they hold in a rent theater on Sunday.

“You don’t have to sell a good party,” Lentz said.

Source: By Byron Pitts, Ely Brown, Laura Ramirez, and Lauren Effron, Not Your Granddad’s Church: Hillsong Church Mixes Sermons With Rock Concerts, abcNEWS,, 5:03, Published 13/11/2014. (Accessed 10/08/2015.)



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