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John MacArthur, justin peters, Nathan Busenitz, phil johnson, R.C. Sproul, Steve Lawson, Strange Fire, Strange Fire Conference, todd friel, Tony Eareckson Tada, Truth Matters Conference
Are you over the false ministries polluting, (or brainwashing), the younger generations with a false Christianity? Are you sick of your local Charismatic/Seeker Sensitive churches misrepresenting Christianity? Do you want to get solid biblical teaching and understanding what Christianity is all about?
Once again, we would like to promote the Strange Fire Conference. Since starting, Hillsong & C3 Church Watch has grown in admins, authors and members. As a result of those involved, we have been pleased to discover that many are still involved in Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anglican, Baptist, Salvation Army, Uniting, Presbyterian, Simple Church and non-denominational church groups. We believe that this Strange Fire conference will be of huge benefit to you. We also think that this conference is also worth telling your friends and family about.
To all our Singaporean, Indian, African, Pacific Island, New Zealand and Australian readers, you can get the Strange Fire app. We’ve heard you can not only stream it live, you can watch the conference sessions again later.
To download the app or for more information, click here: http://www.tmstrangefire.org/app#.UlgibFBmiSo
WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT STRANGE FIRE?
Pastor John MacArthur is hosting the Strange Conference and intends to address the spiritual nonsense within the Charismatic movement.
You do not have to agree with everything John MacArthur says or does. You do not have to like their presentations. What is important is that John MacArthur is calling for a spiritual clean up in the Charismatic movement. It is his desire to call people to repent of their Charismatic craziness and return to the sound truth of God’s Word.
Already, false teachers like Rodney Howard Browne (who have a major influence on Phil Pringle of the C3 Church Movement), has reacted publicly against the controversial event.
Strange Fire: How Much Will This Conference Impact Christianity?
From http://www.tmstrangefire.com:
Overview
The sons of Aaron…offered strange fire before the LORD…and fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them.
—Leviticus 10:1–2
The Lord calls His people to honor Him, to treat Him as holy. Leviticus 10 pictures the consequences of not doing so—of offering to Him strange fire.
For the last hundred years, the charismatic movement has been offering a strange fire of sorts to the third Person of the Godhead—the Holy Spirit. And evangelical churches have chosen to be silent or indifferent on the matter. This hasn’t served the church or the Spirit of the church with honor.
So what should be our response?
Strange Fire is a conference that will set forth what the Bible really says about the Holy Spirit, and how that squares with the charismatic movement. We’re going to address in a biblical, straightforward manner what many today see as a peripheral issue. On the contrary, your view of the Holy Spirit influences your relationship with God, your personal holiness, and your commitment to the church and evangelism.
- Strange Fire is a Truth Matters conference, sponsored by Grace to You.
- The conference will be held at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California.
Source: Main Page, http://www.tmstrangefire.org/, Accessed 12/10/2013.
Speakers worth noting are R.C. Sproul, Phil Johnson, Justin Peters, Steve Lawson, Todd Friel (from Wretched Radio), Nathan Busenitz (of the Cripplegate Blog) and Tony Eareckson Tada (from Joni and Friends Radio). We can guarantee you that this will be a conference that will be eye opening, ear opening and soul convicting.
More importantly, you will get the real gospel from real pastors with real credentials.
Hillsong Church Watch 
“Joni Eareckson-Tada (testimony)”. Good they give that clarification that she is only giving her testimony. Wouldn’t want to give the impression that a woman is a equal to a man and capable of preaching and teaching.
We did notice that. Well put. Your comment made us laugh.
Hi there
Can you help me join your blog? I have been in Pentecostal circles for some time now and am waking up to some of the damaging errors of word of faith and other Pentecostal excesses. As a passionate follower of Jesus who threw themselves into word of faith teaching believing it to be correct I think it’s a miracle I’m alive
Sarah – you “join” these blogs (and C3Churchwatch) by simply commenting. Comments may go into moderation for a time, usually to screen out trolls or those seeking to derail the topics.
Sarah – these audio/video links will help you recover from the damage. Those “wilderness” years? Many of us have travelled that same road.
Just click to watch or listen and be blessed…….
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/325
Dear Berean
Thank you for your advice. I’m not very tech savvy. I have recently found John MacArthur, RC Sproul and others. Certainly their teaching, whilst not without problems, is a massive improvement. I was encouraged to shun technology to a large extent as it might damage the blue print of hope that would mean my faith would not work! Hilarious (or tragic when you consider that following this sort of thing nearly killed me). I think this is why it took my so long to stumble onto much better teaching and gain the ability to reflect and assess teaching. I am so saddened to discover that it seems various people have spoken up within the AoG movement and have been shunned and silenced. I am grateful they did however. I conclude those left behind in leadership have little heart for the people or are very deluded through the constant amount of adoration and money thrown their way. It’s very sad. Thank you again Berean. I am still reeling in shock from what has happened in my life and how false teaching led me into a dangerous place. Unfortunately I was never warned about false teaching or the danger of heresy. Instead it was made explicitly clear to me that only “unbelief” affects the true church. As a naive young christian this seemed very plausible to me and I obediently followed what I was taught. I am still in so much shock from what has happened. I will be telling my testimony online critiqueing the erroneous teaching that has all but destroyed my life (physical life included)
Sarah – I am admittedly Reformed now, no longer WOF/Charismatic/Pentecostal.
Having been part of a church where for 22 years, we took on board all that the leadership “preached” from the pulpit, it has been a painful journey into understanding His sovereign grace. Finally becoming the “Berean” He commends in the scriptures and in turn becoming Reformed simply reading through the scriptures.
Reading John Macarthur’s book “Charismatic Chaos” about 10 years ago (and now his latest book “Strange Fire”) really opened our eyes to the falsehoods so widely taught.
I have great compassion for those still caught up in these churches, it’s so easy to be a consumer there. Your best life now, the 100 fold blessing, promises of healing/restoration/words of knowledge /prophecy.
Tickling our itching ears but never quite delivering.
But He is faithful, a very great Saviour for a very great sinner.
I do have a question however. I am not a ceassationist. I do believe the gifts of the Spirit can be for today although very little, if any, of what I have seen in Pentecostal circles has ever seemed authentic at best. I note others who are Calvinists like MacArthur, such as John Piper are not ceassationists either. I have never fallen over (but I’ve been pushed!) or engaged in any other disturbing behaviour as this always seemed to be a hindrance to evangelism to me as those who aren’t Christians are often quite disturbed by all the lying on the ground. I have considered stopping praying in tongues but I have yet to be utterly convinced from scripture I should or shouldn’t. As I keep this to myself and don’t roll around on the floor etc, I feel this is ok. I turn to the scriptures as best I can, don’t think I will receive “special revelation” of any kind, and behave in a way that would be safely considered decently and in order (I do raise my hands in church but only if others are and wouldn’t if it would offend people as for example in an anglican service). Is this this a relatively safe position? I hope so…
I guess I’m just concerned at what happens might happen with any deviation from scripture now I’ve seen what false teaching has done in my life. I find the ceassationist argument unconvincing for now. And it concerns me that the evangelicals appear to be having problems too – notably at Mars Hill (not ceassationist). Although I heard John MacArthur confronted Kenneth Copeland and this is good
Some issues are secondary, and don’t affect salvation. I spoke in tongues for 22 years, believing I had the gift. Was anyone interpreting? No. Do I speak in tongues now? No. However I pray often and in a language – English.
Do I ever receive “special revelation”? Yes, when reading the Bible. As is so often said “if you want hear God speak, read your bible – if you want the audible voice of God, read it aloud” 🙂
The disorder we see in churches shocks me now – the scriptures are quite clear on how gifts are used and distributed. For the edification of the body of Christ, the church.
Am I a cessationist? Yes and no. God can do whatever He likes. But strangely He doesn’t seem to follow my “commands”, my “demands”, so often encouraged in the church we left.
Theologian Wayne Grudem is a continuationist with his thoughts on tongues here:
“There are four primary Scripture passages that are cited as evidence for praying in tongues: Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 14:4-17; Ephesians 6:18; and Jude verse 20. Ephesians 6:18 and Jude 20 mention “praying in the Spirit.” However, tongues as a prayer language is not a likely interpretation of “praying in the Spirit.”
Romans 8:26 teaches us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.” Two key points make it highly unlikely that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues as a prayer language. First, Romans 8:26 states that it is the Spirit who “groans,” not believers. Second, Romans 8:26 states that the “groans” of the Spirit “cannot be expressed.” The very essence of speaking in tongues is uttering words.
That leaves us with 1 Corinthians 14:4-17 and verse 14 especially: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” First Corinthians 14:14 distinctly mentions “praying in tongues.” What does this mean? First, studying the context is immensely valuable. First Corinthians chapter 14 is primarily a comparison/contrast of the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecy. Verses 2-5 make it clear that Paul views prophecy as a gift superior to tongues. At the same time, Paul exclaims the value of tongues and declares that he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (verse 18).
Acts chapter 2 describes the first occurrence of the gift of tongues. On the day of Pentecost, the apostles spoke in tongues. Acts chapter 2 makes it clear that the apostles were speaking in a human language (Acts 2:6-8). The word translated “tongues” in both Acts chapter 2 and 1 Corinthians chapter 14 is glossa which means “language.” It is the word from which we get our modern English word “glossary.” Speaking in tongues was the ability to speak in a language the speaker does not know, in order to communicate the gospel to someone who does speak that language. In the multicultural area of Corinth, it seems that the gift of tongues was especially valuable and prominent. The Corinthians believers were able to better communicate the gospel and God’s Word as a result of the gift of tongues. However, Paul made it abundantly clear that even in this usage of tongues, it was to be interpreted or “translated” (1 Corinthians 14:13, 27). A Corinthian believer would speak in tongues, proclaiming God’s truth to someone who spoke that language, and then that believer, or another believer in the church, was to interpret what was spoken so that the entire assembly could understand what was said.
What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues? First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.
This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language. This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4). This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)? 2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7). 3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?
Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language. It is unlikely that Satan and his demons are unable to understand human languages. 2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.
What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences. Second, many of the cults and world religions also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues. This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture. Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought.
Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree. Praying in tongues is not what determines salvation. Praying in tongues is not what separates a mature Christian from an immature Christian. Whether or not there is such a thing as praying in tongues as a personal prayer language is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. So, while we believe the biblical interpretation of praying in tongues leads away from the idea of a private prayer language for personal edification, we also recognize that many who practice such are our brothers and sisters in Christ and are worthy of our love and respect.”
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html#ixzz2nIOzWad6
Dear Berean
Thank you for taking all that time to write back to me. That was very nice of you. I appreciate that a lot. I have read many of these points recently and will keep pondering it. For now I think I will most likely reserve any final decision regarding tongues. Whilst I feel it is helpful to me I don’t feel I give it worrying level of prominence (although for a little while I was quite disturbed by suggestions I had been given a demon!). No doubt this will all take time to unravel. It seems sad to me that I never had any opportunity to perhaps assess this early on as a Christian. Is there a church watch for Planetshakers and Paradise (now Influencers)? I was at paradise for some time and having moved to Melbourne recently I started attending Planetshakers. I will be leaving now I have learnt that there is questionable teaching coming from the pulpit and teachers safely considered to be heretics who are being welcomed for conferences. The shepherding/covering doctrine I have been taught is no doubt a major reason why I remained in the dark for so long. I have yet to explore your blog and don’t know if anyone has commented on this. Certainly it left me very inclined to follow along without questioning things. And additionally such “doctrine” creates much fear in the church. Anyone who dissents is likely to be labeled as having a jezebel spirit and shunned. Such mechanisms for controlling people are powerful.
Sarah – there is someone who might able to talk to you about Planetshakers?
http://www.moriah.com.au/
You can contact them privately – they have also had personal interaction with Andrew & Ashley Evans.
Oh yes I have found that website too. It looks quite good. That’s Jacob Praech’s one right? I just found the blog entry from this site re Planetshakers. I saw it a couple of months ago. I certainly agree. I’m so upset at what has happened in my life. I had considered contacting Philip Powell as he apparently tried to speak out against Benny Hinn being welcomed over to the pulpit here. It’s so disturbing to realise these leaders have been warned they were promulgating false teaching and yet when the flock is in danger they are no where to be seen. It seems only prosperous Christians are welcome. In fairness I should acknowledge that at least two pastors at paradise who I knew are pretty decent, as are others I’m sure. But the fact remains that word of faith heresy is being taught and when the rubber meets the road it is nigh impossible to get any access to pastors at all. My husband and I gave thousands to that church. Pastoral care it seems is delegated to the laity. Where are all these pastors during the week? I have been into the church during the week and it was empty. It’s a disgrace. The number of testimonies online of lives destroyed by word of faith testimony is shocking. I find it almost impossible to accept those at the top of the hierarchy are oblivious to this. I am appalled. Whilst a watered down word of faith teaching comes forth, there is tacit acceptance of extreme word of faith teachers. Like an idiot I thought this was true Christianity – it was all I have ever heard. I put the extreme word of faith practices into place, all the so-called spiritual laws, and they most certainly didn’t save me. In fact they left me oblivious to the danger I was in. These leaders don’t live by faith at all. They live off donations and this includes the Evans family. I dare say if they tried to live what they preach they would fall in a ditch pretty quickly
No, not Jacob Prasch – his site is http://www.moriel.org/
Somewhat similar to Jacob Prasch, Tony Dean runs Moriah Ministries. A former radio host who spoke out against Planetshakers etc
Sarah – the old Jezebel spirit furfie. They love to throw that around!
A little bible study on the topic seems to indicate the accusers are somewhat guilty of having such a spirit – i.e. false teaching, idolatry….
“There is a variety of opinions about what constitutes a Jezebel spirit, everything from sexual looseness in a woman to the teaching of false doctrine—by a man or a woman. The Bible does not mention a Jezebel spirit, although it has plenty to say about Jezebel herself.
Jezebel’s story is found in 1 and 2 Kings. She was the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Tyre/Sidon and priest of the cult of Baal, a cruel, sensuous and revolting false god whose worship involved sexual degradation and lewdness. Ahab, king of Israel, married Jezebel and led the nation into Baal worship (1 Kings 16:31). Ahab and Jezebel’s reign over Israel is one of the saddest chapters in the history of God’s people.
There are two incidents in the life of Jezebel which characterize her and may define what is meant by the Jezebel spirit. One trait is her obsessive passion for domineering and controlling others, especially in the spiritual realm. When she became queen, she began a relentless campaign to rid Israel of all evidences of Jehovah worship. She ordered the extermination of all the prophets of the Lord (1 Kings 18:4, 13) and replaced their altars with those of Baal. Her strongest enemy was Elijah, who demanded a contest on Mount Carmel between the powers of Israel’s God and the powers of Jezebel and the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18). Of course, Jehovah won, but despite hearing of the miraculous powers of Jehovah, Jezebel refused to repent and swore on her gods that she would pursue Elijah relentlessly and take his life. Her stubborn refusal to see and submit to the power of the living God would lead her to a hideous end (2 Kings 9:29-37).
The second incident involves a righteous man named Naboth who refused to sell to Ahab land adjoining the palace, rightly declaring that to sell his inheritance would be against the Lord’s command (1 Kings 21:3; Leviticus 25:23). While Ahab sulked and fumed on his bed, Jezebel taunted and ridiculed him for his weakness, then proceeded to have the innocent Naboth framed and stoned to death. Naboth’s sons were also stoned to death, so there would be no heirs, and the land would revert to the possession of the king. Such a single-minded determination to have one’s way, no matter who is destroyed in the process, is a characteristic of the Jezebel spirit.
So infamous was Jezebel’s sexual immorality and idol worship that the Lord Jesus Himself refers to her in a warning to the church at Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29). Most likely referring to a woman in the church who influenced it the same way Jezebel influenced Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality, Jesus declares to the Thyatirans that she is not to be tolerated. Whoever this woman was, like Jezebel, she refused to repent of her immorality and her false teaching, and her fate was sealed. The Lord Jesus cast her onto a sick bed, along with those who committed idolatry with her. The end for those who succumb to a Jezebel spirit is always death and destruction, both in the physical and the spiritual sense.
Perhaps the best way to define the Jezebel spirit is to say it characterizes anyone who acts in the same manner as Jezebel did, engaging in immorality, idolatry, false teaching and unrepentant sin. To go beyond that is to engage in conjecture and can possibly lead to false accusations and divisiveness within the body of Christ.”
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jezebel-spirit.html#ixzz2nIhwsYXK
Dear Berean
Yes I have found got questions. It’s very good on the whole. I have found the odd thing to be a little off base but for the most part it is excellent. I just looked up moriah website. I had confused it with moriel. I’ll have a better look when I am home. One thing is for sure is that I’m not going to be especially quiet about my story. No doubt many more people have had their lives destroyed by following the teachings from these type of churches. I was in sin by supporting people like Copeland and almost worshipped them. I didn’t even see what I was doing. God spared me in His mercy, possibly because I was ignorant. But I deserved His judgement and no doubt some of the tragedy in my life is an outworking of my need to be corrected. How many more have gone to an early grave? I have wasted the better years of my life thinking I was bringing glory to God. Instead I was funding affluent heretics
You might enjoy another site as well, someone who blogs both here and on C3 Churchwatch
http://thenarrowingpath.com/
Thank you 🙂 I will look at that one too. I am interested to note that these mega churches seem to becoming closer to Catholicism than they would like to admit or possibly realised (although they should and the fact the leaders allow themselves to be adored is disturbing). The super Christians at the top with the super anointing and gifting to lead the flock – wrong from so many points. I have been perplexed for a long time as to why there was no power in the message except on very rare occasions (I can think of two times over several years once when there was a moment of peace and a second time when the Spirit was quickly grieved by an impromptu and emotional and prideful call for offerings). I wondered why this was the case – now I know. The Holy Spirit does not back heresy. Finally I can pursue a much more intelligent Christianity that leads to holy living and sanctification – not self-deceived ignorant sin. This is the greatest loss in my life in my opinion far exceeding any financial or other loss I have sustained. I don’t know why God allowed it except that He intends to bring glory out of it. What is going on is disgraceful
I know this might seem silly but given the atmosphere of fleshly display I am used to in church, could I be in sin in ways by wearing modest jewellery or jeans. Please don’t laugh that I ask this. No one can really comment on this but I worry even a silver bangle or my wedding band (has diamonds) might not be befitting. My engagement ring is a bit big so I’ve taken it off for everyday wear and just wear the wedding band. I’m so upset that I may have presented the wrong image at times and even more than I’m not sure if I did or didn’t. My usually guiding principle was to ensure than I didn’t draw too much attention to myself on the basis of appearance. I think I managed this ok but nevertheless as I was wrong in other areas it stands to reason that 16 years in these types of churches meant I was wrong in other areas and didn’t know it. It’s all so upsetting. I know Calvinists teach once saved always saved and I am working my way through the doctrines of grace at the moment. I find the handling of some scriptures to be strained. I have found a more intellectual evangelical arminian site to make a comparison with Calvinism against. After years of being spoonfed teaching under the influence of shepherding/covering doctrine I will be making up my own mind about these issues. Nevertheless I am distressed that I don’t feel my sin acutely enough. I don’t tremble at His Word like I longed too. Neither can I drum up true repentance or sincerity to God. I can’t sanctify myself or make myself holy by fixing up the outer man. My concern is this – without heartfelt repentance how can I be sure I have been cleansed
I want to be holy and set apart but I know I can’t do this myself. It’s the Holy Spirit Who does this. My worry is this – if I don’t grieve over my sin and recognise it because all these years in prosperity Gospel churches have left my conscience defiled and me in ignorant sin, then how can I be sure I have actually confessed my sin in all it’s far-reaching ugliness. And if I don’t see my sin for what it is, it stands to reason I cannot adequately confess it in order to be forgiven. I am terrified what this means for me if I was to die in that I would stand before The Lord in my sin and be ashamed. This is the fruit of word of faith teaching. It will not be good for those teachers and their followers on Judgement Day
Hello Sarah, you have so many great questions. Your concerns are extremely common for new Christians/ less secure in the faith Christians. Have you read the Pilgrim’s Progress book before? The main character Christian goes through a real struggle about his salvation towards the beginning of the book. https://archive.org/details/pilgrimsprogres06bunygoog
Many Christians/ seekers don’t realise that our faith in *Jesus* not faith in “our faith” is what saves us.
“strong faith in a weak bridge lands you in the river….
weak faith in a strong bridge gets you safely across.”
All these Charismatic churches making believers build their faith upon their own faith are making their believers build their house on shifting sand in a flood-prone area. Feelings, experiences, signs and wonders are unreliable and only last for a short while.
God never is unreliable and never will change for all eternity. His promises to save ALL who believe in Jesus has no fine print or conditions anywhere. e.g. ” a Christian must feel X% of sorrow + y% shame for Z period of time for God to grant them true salvation”. Look at the apostle Saul/ Paul’s salvation in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=NKJV. Where are the tears, the sobbing, the expressions of remorse (that some teachers claim all real Christians will experience at their time of conversion)?
It is the turning from darkness to the light (Jesus), the 180 degree turn like the apostle Paul did that shows genuine Christian faith resulting in true “metanoia”. http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Historical.html
Hi Thinker
Thank you for writing to me. I guess the hard part is I’m not a new Christian. I’ve actually been around quite a while. I just never heard much other than word of faith. My distress has eased however and I believe I am in Christ. I have repented of my sin and trusted in Him. I suppose part of the hard part is the Calvinism versus Arminianism debate as each camp denounces as apostasy (and the charge is made Arminians aren’t saved unless they really aren’t Arminians) the other and until recently I has heard of neither until recently.
Sarah – I am a Calvinist but first and foremost I am a sinner saved by grace. Any view I hold must be held up to the scrutiny of scripture but as fallible human beings all our discussions and theologies fall short eventually, trying to understand an unfathomable God who would send His Son to die on a cross and redeem a particular people.
The differences between Arminianism and Calvinism are secondary, they are not salvific. We simply do not have all the answers, both systems fail to adequately explain the relationship between God’s sovereignty and mankind’s free will – due to the fact that it is impossible for a finite human mind to discern a concept only God can fully understand.
But we have a very great Saviour…..
Sarah – it sounds like you have been seriously exposed to a “theology of despair”.
As Martin Luther “The devil gives heaven to people before they sin, but after they sin, brings their consciences into despair.” In other words, the devil seeks to condemn us after we have already experienced the goodness, the grace of God.”
We sin and will continue to sin, by commission and omission, still tied to this mortal body. But we have, as I said a great Saviour.
More Martin Luther who describes himself as “Simul iustus et peccator”. Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same time and in the same relationship just and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel.
Paul says of himself towards the end of his ministry:
Romans 7: 7-25 ‘What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”
Dear Berean
I don’t think I wrote back to you on this. Yes this is a wonderful truth. Thank you very much for writing so nicely to me. I wrote to you on the 3C church watch too (at least I think it was you). I’m disgusted at how I’ve been fleeced.
Dear Berean
Well that’s that for the Pentecostal churches as far as I’m concerned. I’m done. How can I study the bible? I’ve got some idea re hermeneutics but I’m not sure how to clearly see what verses relate to Israel and which to the church. Are the psalms for us or are they prophetic of Christ? I don’t know what promises re physical things are for us today but based on the New Testament church I have concluded- food most of the time, clothing/shelter most of the time. Humble but not necessarily absolutely destitute all the time (although possibly part of the time). No luxuries guaranteed with these to be given us for the sake of servanthood. This is fine by me and fits much more with the servanthood ideals seen in people like Paul and John the Baptist. Is it wrong I want to do little more than work, sleep, pray? And can I as a woman preach the gospel. I realise I can share my faith one on one (using wisdom of course). I don’t mean be an elder or pastor. But I wonder more about standing on a soapbox preaching sin, repentance, the cross etc??? Also can I pray for revival? Basic questions I know. So sad I have to ask…
Thank you Berean. My heart breaks that it doesn’t break for my sin. Surely this is one of the greatest word of faith errors – we aren’t old sinners saved by grace, we were old sinners saved by grace. I heard this so many times. It leads to lawlessness and licentiousness. It is close to, if not the same as, antinomianism. These leaders are teaching others to sin by denying this core truth – we have a sin nature. The demean the role of the Holy Spirit to convict the Christian of sin and they encourage the pursuit of riches. They are without compassion it seems to the sick, poor and abused. Those, they say, have failed to use spiritual law to bring about victorious living. They fail to even see that this is sin too.
Dear Berean
Thank you as always… I do find your reply reassuring because I have been contemplating that both extreme ends of the Arminian and Calvinists camps fail because they are trying to explain the unexplainable. It is not that I think there are contradictions in Scripture – I hope to the inerrancy of scripture. My current feeling is that both sides try to express one aspect of the inscrutable truth of salvation. I think that’s what you are say…??? What I did find disturbing is the allegation that Arminians are not saved because the AoG take an Arminian perspective and thus the Gospel I heard was of this persuasion. I was fearful for my salvation. I see now that God does have wrath, and His wrath was poured out on Christ. I fear Him and I think this is a good thing because this was an aspect of God that is not presented in the prosperity gospel. I had feared God in the past but had not cultivated an approach to Him that I feel reflects both godly fear of His holiness, and the joy of my salvation knowing my sin is forgiven because His wrath was poured out on Christ.
I have been in touch with Sherryn. She is lovely. Thank you so much.
I will try and contact Moriel ministries too as you suggest. I am going to contact Paradise and Planetshakers leadership regarding their error. If that doesn’t get me anywhere I may post my concerns on-line and tell my small group I am leaving and why. At this stage this appears to be an appropriate way to handle the situation. I did consider standing up in church and confronting them but I am not sure. I was advised this is illegal. I would still do it however. What is less clear to me is if this is the correct way to proceed when I am essentially no longer a member. I don’t expect to get anywhere with this but I still feel it is right to speak up.
Joni Eareckson Tada will be hanging out with Christine Caine. http://www.christianleadershipalliance.org/outcomes-conference/Propel