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Ben, Ben Gresham, breakfast, Brian Houston, gay christianity, Gresham, groom, grooming, Hillsong, homosexuality
Queerstianity: A group of people that supposedly push no political or religious agenda but “share” their philosophy of tolerance and love onto others.”
(Source: Urban Dictionary [slightly edited])
Once again – we have to ask the question: What god does Brian Houston and Hillsong worship?
First Brian Houston said to Christians, “[…] the Muslim and you, we actually serve the same God. Allah to a Muslim, to us Abba Father God”.
Brian Houston: “the Muslim and you, we actually serve the same God”
While Brian Houston offered a clarification, he was deliberately misleading. Our above article stressed A particular issue Brian refused to address which is why we do not believe his clarification or accept his apology. We stressed this statement that he made in regards to Christians and Muslim’s serving the same God:
“But lets make sure that we view God through the eyes of Jesus, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the beauty of a Saviour, the loving open inclusive arms of a loving God.”
This is ecumenical talk and is a very deceitful ploy to use on Christians to suggest that Jesus Christ is inclusive. This is why we provided the sermon at the end of the above article.
This type of inclusivity does not preserve the Christian faith, it destroys it.
Below you are about to understand why “inclusive” talk is incredibly dangerous as it appears Brian Houston’s Hillsong god is also a gay-affirming god. That is, you can be an unrepentant homosexual and be a Christian at Hillsong church. To understand why this is such a blatant attack on the Christian faith please read our article below. We are aware how sensitive this Christian issue is and wish to deal with it mindfully.
Hillsong grooming its members to embrace Gay Christianity (Part 1)
In articles to come, we will be observing how Houston has already started the process of grooming Hillsong to embrace Queerstianity. To do this, we will be examining what homosexual media is saying about Hillsong.
Ben Gresham wrote,
Breakfast with Brian: Hillsong, Homosexuality and the Future
A blog entry on my breakfast with the Senior Pastor of Hillsong Church, Brian Houston. This entry shares Brian’s thoughts on homosexuality, gays in church, the future of the church and dealing with the whole ‘gay issue’.
Hillsong Church claims that over 20,000 people attend their Sydney services every weekend. Conservative figures state that the population who are gay or lesbian is somewhere between 6 to 10% (Gallup, 2012). If this is true then there are anywhere from 1,200 to 2000 gay and lesbian members of Hillsong Church in Sydney alone. These figures really prompt me to be open and honest, in the hope that many others will follow. The figures also raise concern as LGBTI (Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Transgender, Intersex) people are the highest suicide risk group in Australia (Suicide Prevention Australia, 2009) and yet the church thinks its ok just to ignore them.
My involvement in freedom2b and the upcoming trip to Brisbane for the Asia-Pacific Suicide Prevention Conference in 2010 prompted me to do something about the alarming rates of suicide amongst LGBTI people and so one day I decided to send a tweet (twitter) to the Senior Pastor of my church, Brian Houston (Brian) not thinking much more of it. Surprisingly he chose to respond, asking me if I would like to do coffee. It seems simple but in reality this was a breakthrough and after so much written communication between Brian and me, here I was finally getting a chance to meet face-to-face.
It was a beautiful friday morning on the 12th November 2010 in Glenhaven in Sydney’s North West. I drove there from my parent’s house in Cherrybrook and arrived at the cafe early to pray and to make sure I was prepared for what was to be a very important meeting. I remember sitting there, knowing that this meeting was important not only for me, but also very important for the many gay and lesbian people at the Hillsong churches around the world.
As Brian Houston walked into the café, it seemed like he was more nervous of this conversation happening than I was. He shook my hand, mentioned my name, smiled and we said good morning to each other.
A discussion then progressed that went for over an hour and Brian was more than happy to answer most of my questions and concerns and possibly even learned something himself. Here’s a bit of a breakdown of what happened in three categories:
Ex-Gay?
• Brian stated clearly that Hillsong church (and himself) no longer support ex-gay ministries
• Brian acknowledged the involvement of Hillsong church in ex-gay ministries in the past such as Exit Ministries, Living Waters and Exodus. Brian mentioned that he was never truly convinced of the idea of ex-gay ministries, although his father Frank Houston supported them.
• Brian does not want an ex-gay message preached from the pulpit of Hillsong.
• When questioned about Sy Rogers, Brian responded by saying “I think Sy regrets his previous involvement in Exodus”.
Brian’s Commitments
• More training and education on sexual orientation and sexuality (particularly amongst youth leaders)
• Commitment to read and explore theology and resources on homosexuality.
• Discussions with other pastors (such as Rob Buckingham of Bayside Church, Melbourne)
• Position statement on homosexuality which can be easily accessed on the Hillsong website
Brian’s Concerns
• Vulnerable people
• Predatory behaviour
• Balancing theology with compassion
• Suicide amongst LGBT young people (particularly within the church)
Brian’s main concerns about welcoming LGBT people in to the church mainly focused around vulnerable people and protecting their safety. This included a fear of predatory behaviour and ‘hook-ups’ happening within the church. I explained to him “That is understandable; however that kind of behaviour can happen with straight people as well as gay people in the church”. I explained the safe space we have at Freedom2b and the cruise-free zone policy. He seemed interested in how we create a safe space and what Hillsong could do to maintain that the church is a safe place, free of agendas.
So, the three most important questions for LGBT people…
Q – Question A – Answer LA – Long Answer
1. Are gays welcome in Hillsong?
A: The short answer is yes!
LA: However in reality, many of us have not had such welcoming experiences. Almost every week I get another email, facebook message or someone else from church speaks to me, telling me they are being bullied at church or that they are depressed and just can’t break free from self hatred. Sadly, the most common story I hear is of a closeted gay or lesbian person at Hillsong who tells me that they are too scared to come out because they feel like if they did, people in church wouldn’t treat them the same. Saying this, I can think of a certain young man that I know in Senior leadership at Hillsong. He’s closeted and although he knows he is gay, if he came out he would be thrown out of leadership, loose friends and loose his reputation.
Unfortunately, Brian doesn’t see what I see. What’s being said in higher leadership is not travelling down to the youth pastors, connect leaders and mentors. It’s not enough to have a personal belief that ‘gay people are welcome’, this belief and the reasons why must be shared with the leadership teams and then the whole congregation. The church must be educated but this is not happening. This is the problem! Even Brian admitted “I agree that we need to educate the leaders and others in our church! We need to start talking about it“.
2. Does Hillsong support ex-gay ministries?
A: The simple answer is No… well not anymore.
LA: For a long time Hillsong did run an ‘ex-gay’ program called Exit Ministries which was started by Brian’s father Frank. This lasted for many years until they decided to close Exit Ministries and start referring people to Exodus and Living Waters. Hillsong was referring people to Living Waters up until the mid 2000s. Following this, same-sex attracted people have been referred to other ex-gay ministries around Sydney, online ex-gay ministries such as Setting Captives Free and reparative therapy (done under the guise of Christian counselling). Ex-gay preaching has taken full form at Hillsong with Sy Rogers visiting almost every year (most recently in 2010) and still selling his resources from the 1990s when he was heavily involved with Exodus International. Although I know of some that are still being referred to ‘ex-gay’ ministries, there are a few people that are being referred to psychologists and groups such as Freedom2b. The best news was that in 2011, Brian issued a statement saying that Hillsong church does not support ex-gay ministries and will not be referring anybody to them. Slowly people are getting real answers to difficult questions.
3. Does Hillsong have a heart to welcome gay people, just as they are?
A: Yes they do.
LA: The leaders and members of Hillsong church generally have a heart for people and a desire to love others. Unfortunately those 6 ‘clobber passages’ in the Bible take their effect, mixed with years of discrimination in Australia and a literalistic religious upbringing of many teaching them that gay and lesbian people are sinful and unnatural.
As a gay Christian I have had to study the bible and have realised that the bible does not condemn homosexual sexual-orientation, nor does it condemn loving monogamous same-sex relationships. The so called ‘clobber passages’ often used to condemn LGBT people can be understood through context, culture and language. For more info read Stuart Edser’s book ‘Being Gay Being Christian’ or the wonderful document ‘What the Bible really says about homosexuality’.
So, in essence Brian Houston and the majority of people at Hillsong are well-meaning Christians with a heart to help people, including LGBT people…they are just going about it the wrong way!
Why should Hillsong welcome gays?
Simply put, because the at least 1200 gay and lesbian church members need more than just occaisional preaching from Sy Rogers or J John. They need more than just a sexual purity LIFE course and they need more than a message of change or celibacy. LGBT people deserve a place in the church. They deserve messages relating to them, they deserve a sustainable option for the future and the support of a group like Freedom2b. LGBT Christians have been blessed with wonderful gifts which can be used to grow the church and serve the kingdom. Most importantly, LGBT people deserve a church pastor who is honest and open with them. They deserve a pastor and church that loves them and understands them and sees them not as a problem but as a valued member of the church family.
So… after all that do I have answers from Brian on issues such as gay relationships, marriage or whether gays should serve in church? No. But the simple, honest answers he gave must be commended. He placed himself in a vulnerable position to meet with me. He didn’t really have to, nor did he have to say anything.
If I can take away one thing from my breakfast with Brian, it would be the realisation that Brian (and many other leaders at Hillsong) really does aim to love God and love people. They acknowledge that they have not always gotten it right, and they do not pretend to be perfect, but like all of us they are on a journey and are trying to do the best they can.
Some of the answers to the questions I asked are a step forward but in reality, there is still much more work to be done to make Hillsong church a welcoming place for LGBT people.
Concluding Statement:
As a gay man and a member of Hillsong Church, I was happy to hear all that Brian had to say, however I was left wanting more… perhaps an apology for everything I went through and for many people in the church treating me so badly when I came out. I also wish Brian’s commitments had been more concrete. It’s been more than a year since our breakfast meeting and very little has changed. I am encouraged when I hear about recent stories of gay and lesbian people coming out and being welcomed at church just as they are. Yet I know of other stories where a gay man at Hillsong was not allowed to serve at Hillsong Conference because he was in a relationship with another man.
I don’t think we will see an article in the News saying ‘Hillsong Welcomes Gays’ anytime soon. But I do know that we are moving forward in trying to make the church a safer place. And that many of us are making a positive difference for future generations. As Anthony Venn-Brown often says “the enemy is not political parties, church denominations or individual people. The enemy is ignorance”. I hope that my meeting with Brian chipped away at that ignorance that exists within the Christian church about LGBT people. Ultimately, if the church is going to become a safer and more welcoming place then it will take both gay Christians and the church to work together.
Brian – If you are reading this I want to say thank you again for meeting with me. We may not agree with everything but I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to meet with me and hear my story. I am very grateful. I’m happy to work together to create a safer, more welcoming space for gay and lesbian people and would love to chat again soon.
Ben Gresham, 2012
Source: Posted By Ben Gresham, Breakfast with Brian: Hillsong, Homosexuality and the Future, Just As I Am, http://bennygresham.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/breakfast-with-brian-hillsong.html, Thursday, May 24, 2012. (Accessed 31/03/2014.)
Hillsong Church Watch 
“Commitment to read and explore theology and resources on homosexuality”. Otherwise known as Liberation Theology or “Queer Theology” where all Christians should see Christianity through the Gay Persons point of View. Really Brian. Really. I beg to differ. All Christians Should see Christianity from the Bible’s point of view and that of Jesus Christ. And wee all know what that says about so called “Queer Theology”. Don’t do it.
The slippery slope is getting steeper – here we have a gay Christian (and a bishop) openly dismissing God’s Word for his own “pleasure” and if he really believed his union was biblical, what does he now do with all the scriptures about divorce!
This is a very wide road the “seeker” churches are in danger of travelling.
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/05/03/gene-robinson-first-openly-gay-episcopal-bishop-divorce/
2 Peter 3:1-18 is an appropriate message to answer this, particularly the verse “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures”
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“The Day of the Lord Will Come”
“This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
“Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”
“Final Words”
“Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
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The Apostle Paul condemns homosexuality without reservation in Romans 1:26-28, 1 Cor:6.9-10 and 1 Tim 1:9-10 at the same time affirming the victory over homosexual sin in 1 Cor 6: 11 ““And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
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“Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations – yes, a “gay Christian” is possible. However, the description “gay Christian” is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a “gay Christian,” but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing. If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle – no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian.” http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-Christian.html
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It appears that Brian Houston may be jettisoning “Sola Scriptura” in favor of some highly subjective personal conversation with Ben Gresham.
Time will tell…….
Berean, I think you’ve said it all… I’m just going to quote a (slightly updated) little piece that I put on the other related thread, so for what it’s worth:
“I’m beginning to wonder if Brian is subtly embracing these people so that they can become his “human shields” – in other words, any attack on Hillsong et al, is automatically perceived as an attack on the gays that are in membership (and possibly also in prominent leadership positions?), and may therefore be subject to antidiscrimination and villification laws?”
Or maybe he’s just toying with the idea of creating a new franchise called “GaySong”? as in a seperate meeting for these people, so they won’t offend the beliefs of his mainstream 20,000 strong congregation (and therefore downgrade the proceeds flowing into the tithe buckets?) You can’t have your cake and eat it too.. or can you?
Some of the above may sound a bit over the top, but many of these false ministries will stop at nothing to grow their numbers and expand their potential for new sources of income, as well as the value added “arms and legs” volunteers that come with that growth.
I am talking in all seriousness as it is now getting to the stage that no angle or opportunity will be wasted by the leaders of such “churches”, so it is right to take a strong stand against that which God has already declared sin. We should not pander to the crowd who wants to twist the scriptures to the degree that their clear intent is no longer recognisable.
The most tragic thing of all, would be for the gays to actually get the impression that it is OK with God to be in known sexual sin, while the “church” stands by and entertains you, panders to your everyneed and soothes your conscience, but tells you nothing of repentance and cleansing through the blood of Jesus Christ…
Addressing the same conversation between Gresham and Houston but let’s instead of reading the word “homosexual/lesbian/gay”, insert “adulterer/fornicator/thief/idolator” instead.
Does the argument still work?
“Hillsong megachurch pastor says church should be more understanding of………..(fill in the blank)”
http://standupforthetruth.com/2013/08/imagine-a-letter-to-the-church-at-sydney/
@Berean, I’d say yes. Jesus welcomed all of them, so should Christians who claim to follow Him. “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Acts 2:21
Jesus never welcomed them, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t love them but Jesus created men and women, Adam and eve, so what hillsong is doing is going against the bible. Sorry 💔
@ troy – so an UNREPENTANT practicing adulterer/fornicator/thief/idolator gets a free pass?
Yes we all struggle with sin, daily. As Luther said, we are simultaneously both saints and sinners. “Simul iustus et peccator”.
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”
Perhaps I should have clarified my point?
@Berean I think that as Christians we’re called to love people and point them to Jesus. Mark 12:30-31 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I think churches should welcome all sinners, like I was welcomed to church while still a sinner. After hearing the gospel, it’s between them and God what they choose to do with that knowledge, repent or not.
In regards to Brian Houston, I am reading it as he is not saying we should accept “homosexuality”, but rather accept those people in our churches and love them like we are to love everyone. It’s up to the individual how they choose to respond to God.
For those who like a little in-depth research and commentary….
http://apprising.org/2014/05/05/tsunami-of-pro-homosexual-books-from-gay-christians-and-supporters/
Troy, I think the point here is, it’s not that we can’t show love to the gay community, but how do we show that love? Do we treat “love” as some smarmy sort of affection, as the world envisages it (human love?) Or do we act on the basis of divine love (agape love) which sacrifices all, just as Jesus did? Love in this context, must be seen from God’s point of view, and the Bible makes it clear that whoever the Lord loves, He also chastises, as any loving father figure would.
“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?” Hebrews 12:6,7
What concerns me, is that places like Hillsong are watering down the strong message of the Gospel, by compromising with the world, and this woowing of the gays is just another stepping stone along the way to more compromise. They may be ‘welcomed’ into the ‘church’ but in reality there may not be any direct challenge as to how they are living. That is not comensurate with the Gospel message,
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent…” Acts 17:30 This is not religious prudishness – it’s the Gospel…
If their committment is genuine, then they would have experienced conviction, and would be wanting some teaching and counseling on how ‘not to be gay’ anymore. Would Hillsong then be prepared to go ahead and take on such counseling, as they have already indicated that they no longer refer gays to Exodus or similar ministries.
If it is good enough for the Son of God to lay down His life for sinners, then it is good enough for those who wish to be genuinely seen as part of the church, to repent of sinful lifestyles. As Berean said, we all struggle with sin every day, and no one would condemn a gay person (who was genuine in their committment to God) for struggling in a similar manner, in order to overcome their sin.
But would Brian and Bobby be just as happy for them to “sit in church” with no challenges issued, and certainly no change? Just allow them to keep on ‘being gay’ without speaking out about the issue, and allow them to believe that being gay is OK with God and that the scriptures on the topic just don’t matter any more???
So how many gay clubs have you been frequenting to ‘chastise’ the inmates lately, Austin?
Or is your dogmatic judgement only reserved for those who want to ‘love the sinner but hate the sin’ by welcoming any and all comers, including gays, thieves, liars, gossips, backbiters, angry people, adulterers, etc., to hear the truth and allow the Holy Spirit convict them at the appropriate time?
And to all you who are bashing gays, especially the author of this piece, it seems you are mentally holding up the same placards as the Westbrough Baptists made famous by the late Fred Phelps.
Your language tells us you support their methodology and would lim to be on the street with them with your own ‘god hates queerstianty’ posters.
This entire series of posts is a beat-up of what Brian Houston is actually saying.
Hello “Steve”
Well, it may surprise you to know that the scripture quoted by me above, is predicated on those in question actually being sons of God (true believers) and that it is God who does the ‘chastising’, not me. If they are just casual visitors (whether they are gay or not,) then that scripture would not seem to apply to them.
However, if they are repentant sons of God, and they stray back into old habits, then yes, God would then chastise them – lovingly and caringly as any father would.
“Or is your dogmatic judgement only reserved for those who want to ‘love the sinner but hate the sin’ by welcoming any and all comers, including gays, thieves, liars, gossips, backbiters, angry people, adulterers, etc., to hear the truth and allow the Holy Spirit convict them at the appropriate time?”
Well, that depends totally on what kind of “truth” you intend to share with them. Now, would that be the ‘tithing truth’ or the ‘pastor worshiping truth’ or perhaps it is simply that the whole spectrum of false doctrine and false prophecy in such places has no real truth in it, and there would then be no point in sharing anything with them at all.
Perhaps it would be better if they just stayed home?
“And to all you who are bashing gays, especially the author of this piece, it seems you are mentally holding up the same placards as the Westbrough Baptists made famous by the late Fred Phelps.”
Attempting to align any of us with such a group as the one mentioned by you, is foolish indeed. Our heart is for the lost too, whether you can see that in your inate blindness or not. Of course, such blindness extends far beyond the points surrounding a single issue, and in this case I would have to say that it’s the kind that will end you up in a well dug ditch, which will be of your own making.
“Your language tells us you support their methodology and would li(ke) to be on the street with them with your own ‘god hates queerstianty’ posters.”
Well, the Bible spells out pretty clearly just what it is that God hates – He hates sin, and those who proactively sell it, spread it and defend it. Which one are you “Steve”?
Sin is not a matter be trifled with – sin has consequences, both in this life and the next and to sit there in such “churches” and say nothing of the consequences of sin, and in particular, sexual sin, would be an indictment of the whole of Christain thought, teaching and practice.
“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes, condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly. And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked”
2 Peter 2:6,7
If that isn’t a fair warning against those who say that “gay is OK” inside the church, then please tell me what is?
Homosexual practice destroyed whole cities back then, and it is still doing so today, as the norms and moors of our society are tampered with by secular social engineers, who have no concept of a holy God or what it is to be a Christian. Our stand must be the Gospel and nothing less.
“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
2 Peter 3:3 – 7
If you choose to attack the ‘beatup’ as you call it, then you must also accept the consequences for anyone who ignores this warning (due to your own efforts to discredit it,) and ends up in eternal hellfire as a result. Being a ‘scoffer’ just doesn’t pay.
You avoided the question on whether you were visiting gays to ‘chastise’ them as you advise.
Your threats of judgment for correctly applying scripture to those who are in sin are like seed scattered in the dust.
The beat-up is the misrepresentation of what Brian is saying. He isn’t condoning the sin. He is opening the door to the sinner. How else will the sinner find grace?
If they came in your door they would only find law without grace. You would condemn them with your chastisement before they were sons.
Jesus mixed with prostitutes, demonised people, sick people, drunks, tax-collectors, lepers, and all the outcasts of his day. He did this to show the grace and mercy of God which was extended to them. he did not condemn them. He showed mercy and drew them to the Father.
If you apply your law and judgment to homosexuality, then you must accord the same judgement to those who are adulterers, fornicators, gossips, backbiters, angry persons, thieves, liars, people who commit adultery with their eyes, spiteful people, and the like.
Your church would be only open to righteous people. The sinner would be cast away.
“If they came in your door they would only find law without grace. You would condemn them with your chastisement before they were sons.”
Nope – wrong again Steve. It is God who chastises them – if they are sons, and only if.
“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
John 1:17
It is grace AND truth that sets the captives free. Half truths like the ones you like to spout will never set anyone free, whether they are gay or not.
Jesus told the woman caught in adultry to “go and sin no more” (John 8:11)
He did not extend “grace” to her so that she could keep on in her habitual sinful lifestyle while she continued to “sit in church” week afer week, as if nothing had happened. His kind of grace forgave the sinner, but also imparted to them the truth that a lifetime of sin doesn’t pay. It has consequences both now, and in eternity.
“spiteful people and the like”?
Well, that could only mean those who post here now, couldn’t it? I mean you didn’t show up on C3CW out of love for the brethren, or with any great care and concern for these poor old sheep that we are so badly leading astray now, did you? Just another opportunity to vent your spleen on those who dare to speak out?
“Your church would be only open to righteous people. The sinner would be cast away.”
Sinners are already being ‘cast away’ by the mega churches – if they don’t ‘tithe’ if they don’t agree with the ‘vision’ if they don’t “fit in” with the upper crust elitism that is self evident in such places, they are simply gotten rid of and their very real problems are ignored.
If you’re not a viable ‘titihing unit’ then you are no use to God or man, according to them. And that applies to anyone foolish enough to have embraced the ‘church growth’ model, based on advice from worldly marketing companies, who originally devised that scheme.
Legalism on our part simply doesn’t come into it, as the poor the lowly and those who don’t clone themselves on Brian and Bobby (business suits, fast cars and motor bikes, large buildings, internatinal travel, conferences by the dozen and motivational speaking) are rejected in favour of rich yuppies and other socialite glowbugs that tend to attract more of same..
You keep on highlighting the word ‘gossips’ as if that somehow only applied to those of us who write and post here, so Steve, what’s happening over on your own blogsite – unadulterated truth?
I don’t totally disagree with what you have to say, Austin. I am not promoting any kind of sexual deviance as a lifestyle, any more than you are.
As you say, Jesus told the woman to sin no more. But he did not, at any time, condemn her, or pronounce judgment on her. Her own sin, measured against the law, condemned her. He did not have to. He forgave her. He had the power to forgive, and released it to us. We don’t know whether she subsequently obeyed him or not. We do know he released her from all guilt. He made the passage to salvation clear by exercising grace and mercy.
“spiteful people and the like”?
I actually emphasised ‘gossip’, but there you go, if you latched onto ‘spite’ then maybe you are picking something up for yourself. Who knows but you and the Spirit? I was judging no-one in particular. It was a generic statement based on scripture. If the cap fits, as they say. I don’t love or hate anyone any more than another, apart, obviously, rom direct family and friends. I mean you no ill will. But I certainly can’t see the benefit of holding back any more than you of I perceive an injustice or a false claim.
Judging people for being gay is one thing, but as has been said before, if you judge on one issue then you should judge on all, or, like Christ or example, show mercy, or forgiveness or grace, or at least walk alongside the sinner to assist them to discover their sin and repent of it without pronouncing judgment on them. It’s the truth which sets us free, not condemnation theology.
“Half truths like the ones you like to spout will never set anyone free”
You don’t know what I minister, preach or teach. You are basing your assumptions on weak perceptions. So making vain accusations isn’t helpful. Neither do you know whether anyone has been set free because I have spoken in the ams of Jesus. That is not even for you to speculate or judge. If you insist on rash declarations, go ahead, but it means nothing because you know nothing. It also shows you are just as prone to spouting half truths as you claim others are, since you couldn’t possibly low the whole truth of what I minister, or the result.
Rather than venting my spleen as you claim, I am pointing out that the article misrepresents the facts by falsely claiming that Hillsong is moving towards a form of gay christianity, when all that has been said so far is that they are proposing to be more welcoming towards gays and lesbians, not to support their lifestyle, but to be less judgmental of it.
I am merely challenging the premise of the post.
Jesus didn’t come for the righteous, he came for the sinner.
If there’s a single one of you without sin, let’s see if you are still prepared to cast stones at sinners. If you have any sin you are as liable as any you accuse of the same condemnation you use.
If you are righteous, of course, you have the option, under law, of pronouncing judgment by condemning the sinner, or showing mercy, under grace, and forgiving them.
All I see is on your side is a pile of stones and a pit prepared for the sinner.
Its either personal choice or its demonic possession or oppression. Like anorexics, they look in the mirror and see a fat person when they dying from starvation. Demons can enter into people from childhood so they can think that they’re something that they’re not. Where are the churches expelling demons like Jesus did in his day. He was expelling them left, right and center. The church just can’t hold their hand and say Jesus loves you and leave them possessed with these evil spirits. Sin attracts the demonic. Demons live in the realm of SIN. (They couldn’t touch Jesus because he was and is always SIN free) By teaching them that homosexuality is a SIN and leading them to repent, Jesus can then step in and remove the demonic spirit. Then the HOLY SPIRIT will take the place of the evil spirit and set them free. Why don’t these pastors get this? In Ephesians 6:12 it says For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. The more the church sins and allows people to keep on sinning and refusing to preach and teach the sheep what sin is, then of course the demonic activity increases in a church. Satan is the father of lies and wants to deceive people into thinking they are homosexual when they really arn’t. God never made them that way only Satan has tricked them, and pastors should be exposing these lies and seeking the power of the Holy Spirit to cleans their sheep. Jesus said the Truth shall set you free. He is the Truth.
I don’t think it’s Biblical to assume all sexual sin is a result of being possessed by a demon. Perhaps in some cases, but certainly not all. Paul calls it a sin of the flesh. It can and should be resisted like all sin. Anger is also a sin of the flesh. As is adultery. Covetousness. Jesus calls looking on a woman with adulterous eyes sin. hatred he calls akin to murder. It’s all mostly flesh and can be overcome by walking in the Spirit, against which there is no law.
Gordy, sexual sin is sinning against your own body. God commands us to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, to be a temple of the Holy Spirit. Sexual sin defiantly allows sin to enter into your body and when that happens – well the book of Romans tells us what happens then. The things I want to do I don’t do and the things I don’t want to do I do ( that’s what bondage is). Who can deliver me from this – only Jesus Christ. The Bible also says if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out… etc.. That’s how bad the effect of sin is to people – both Christians and non Christians alike.
TruthorLie – you are spot on! However some bondages are not easy to get rid of, it doesn’t happen overnight. The proverb that says the man that goes to the adulterous woman goes down to the spirits of the dead – never to return. Also you can have a retrabate mind (excuse the spelling). So the truth needs to be preached, however the struggle against sin is not an easy one and the damage, spiritually, emotionally and psychologically, that a person has received can take a long time to heal. The level of pain inside a person can be so big that the mind and body can’t process or handle all at once. This is especially true for abuse victims where their mind splits to cope with what has happened to them, it’s how they survive. It’s the power of God that will set people free and only God knows what has happened to that person to make them the way they are. We need to stop playing God and speak the truth in love and allow God to do the work people, and stop judging. But do not compromise and say homosexuality is normal,
I think demons and sin are the same thing. That’s just my opinion.
It’s not demons that sin. It’s people. Making demons responsible for sin is a cop-out. The devil tempts, but people sin. Demons and sin are not the same. Demons are considered to be malevolent fallen spirits and so are in sin, but sin is the product of disobedience in the life of the person.
Adam was a man who was the originator of sin into the human race. He was tempted of the devil, but it was Adam who brought sin into the world and the resultant fall.
No one is casting stones at sinners. It is the love of God to properly share the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ with all mankind. It is not enough to “welcome people to church” and just let them sit there, forever in their sins, without a loving, caring intervention in their lives, in order to share that very love of God with them.
I pity the congregation of any church that you have/are pastoring Steve, as half of them may well be on their way to Hell, simply because you have shared a watered down gospel, full of smarmy love and sloppy preaching, that has no Holy Ghost inspiration or solid word based exegesis behind it.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek…”
Romans 1:16
The Gospel is the power of God to save the lost, so if the ‘lost’ (sinners) are sitting in these huge money raking mega churches and they are still unsaved, after some considerable time has elapsed, then I would question just what “gospel” is being preached.
Is it the ‘feel good’ Anthony Robins motivational speaking kind, or is it the ‘meet new friends and have a great time in church’ kind – a religious social club, founded on relationships outside of repentance toward, and fellowship with God?
Perhaps it is the much vaunted but seriously misguided “prosperity gospel” where eveyone in the know joins the local Pentecostal Ponzi scheme and gets rich quick – before the rest of the crowd realises that they’ve been had, but can’t claim a refund, because they have no legal rights, as members of the scheme/scam/church/club?
It is you Steve/Gordy/Gordon/Fathlift (and whatever other names you have dreamed up lately), who is throwing stones at us, so it may be that you are claiming a kind of (self) righteousness that we just don’t have.
So, feel free to keep on ‘throwing stones’, for as long as your conscience will allow your own self-righteousness to do so.
Austin says, “I pity the congregation of any church that you have/are pastoring Steve, as half of them may well be on their way to Hell, simply because you have shared a watered down gospel, full of smarmy love and sloppy preaching, that has no Holy Ghost inspiration or solid word based exegesis behind it.”
Well that is just a sloppy accusation based on a complete lack of knowledge. There is no church I’ve been involved with would be in any doubt as to what sin is and what the consequences of sin are. I actually do preach the whole counsel of God. You make far too many assumptions based on failed perceptions of others.
As I have pointed out several times, if you are going to nail one sin you have to point out all sin, and examine yourself first. Didn’t Jesus say something about specks and planks? Didn’t he warn against judging others as you would be judged accordingly?
But, yes, of course, we preach the whole truth, which includes pointing out what sin is and what the consequences are, because the point of the cross is that through it Jesus frees those who believe from the wages of sin which is death, so neglecting to tell people what sin is and how to avoid falling into temptation is an essential part of the gospel message.
I have never been in a church which did not recognise this and teach on it. I am not sure where you are getting your information, but it certainly doesn’t relate to any church I have attended or ministered in. The point of the cross is salvation from sin.
My argument here is that there is a false premise being claimed which is that Brian Houston is ‘grooming’ people to embrace gay sex as a lifestyle of a Christian. I do not see this, and nor does Ben Gresham, by the looks of it.
The term ‘grooming’, by the way is mischievous and provocative, so if you want to set up a discussion in this area it would be better to stay away from utilising the most controversial and incendiary statements to set up a headline or it will promote a reaction rather than a response in those you target.
Gordy, I’m sorry, but using your arguement, noone would have ever written the New Testament.
I think you’re the one missing the point. Yes, Jesus did dialogue with all, but they all knew up-front where He stood on sin. He did not condone ANY sin. NO adultery, NOR lying, NOR homosexuality. He welcomed everyone, and called all sinners, but to REPENT, not to continue living in sin.
And yes there is a difference between homosexuality and lying. There are no groups promoting equal rights for liars, or being a liar and a Christian simultaneously. But, there are growing numbers of people saying you CAN be a homosexual, and REMAIN a homosexual AND be a Christian at the same time too. Sorry but that is not the case. People are promoting homosexuality as if it were NOT a sin and it were just acceptable normal behavior, but it’s not.
Jesus made it clear up front. Yes ALL are welcome, but ALL must repent. That INCLUDES homosexuality. So they want “inclusive”, well they got “inclusive”. THEY MUST REPENT TOO. Just like everyone else.
Gay groups keep talking as if they were some special privileged group that Jesus was not talking to when He said “REPENT”, but they are not. And YES WE ARE TO SPEAK UP.
FURTHERMORE, stop trying to twist things around and say, that those of us Christians who are voicing the BIBLICAL stance on homosexuality, are the ones in the wrong, as if we’re going to hurt someone’s feelings.
So, Brian Houston, if you’re listening, please make it clear, GAYDOM AS A LIFESTYLE will not be considered acceptable behavior, any more than using profanity in the sanctuary. One and all, please come to church, but plan to change anything that is hostile and offensive to our Lord.
So what are you repenting of?
Apparently I’ve hurt lots of people’s feelings, so I don’t see how your argument stacks up. I’m merely saying that the gospel is about forgiveness of the sinner not an appeal to the righteous.
I think you make the assumption that no one in Hillsong ever reads their Bible and discovers that sin is bad!
Of course, you all think that Hillsongers are airheads who are blindly led along some lemming path to doom! Personally I think it’s arrogant to make such statements. Those I’ve met have been pretty articulate when it comes to the scriptures.
I think Gordy knows and acknowledges all the above but has painted himself into a corner because he finds this whole site disagreeable. Championing the cause of Hillsong and C3 is one thing, not acknowledging the very real problems coming out of these churches is another.
Given time I think we will see a compromise – I’m very alarmed that Brian may dialogue with Rob Buckingham and come away convinced that Rob and Bayside church are on the right track. One only has to see Anthony Venn-Brown’s affirmation of Buckingham”s new acceptance/approach to homosexuality to set off alarm bells.
Well said Truthorlies and azaziah q – we need folks like you to come on over regularly and tell it like it is. The ‘naysayers’ won’t like it, but this is a cirticial issue in these last days, and me must put the case of the Gospel out there for one and all to hear, including any gay people who may be looking on.
It is not my purpose here to villify gay people, but rather to point them to the Saviour, by whom they may be saved, and to help prevent any false gospel from being spread that might give a false impression that they don’t need to repent:
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved…” Acts 4:12
(except the name of Jesus)
Saved from what? Saved from their sins, as the Bible promises them, should they choose to repent – and only if they repent. The terms of salvation in the Christian context are clear and apply to one and all:
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” Romans 10:14, 15
How will the gays and any other sinners who Brian ‘welcomes’ through his front door, hear the Gospel, unless there is a preacher to actually preach the genuine Christian Gospel of repentace unto salvation?
Spoon feeding his new visitors a regular smorgasboard of tithing and prosperity doctrine may well fill the church coffers a little faster, but failing to preach a message on salvation wil not challenge them towards godly sorrow and change, at all.
How anyone could indulge in the absurdity that preaching the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ can be equated with “stone throwing” is beyond me, and the enormous consequences of failing to preach the Gospel at all, to a lost and dying world may only be realised in eternity, when it is way too late for some.
Actually we are saved from the wrath of God, I think that gets lost in the mix sometimes.
Romans 5:9 “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
@ Austin – do you about this guy?
http://gayambassador.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/hillsong-homosexuality-gay.html
What do I think? Absolutely scandalous – he is using all of the common excuses in the book – medicine, science, psychology/psychiatry and basically promoting the idea the the church is “out of date”.
With what? My Bible still teaches me the difference between normal heterosexual behaviour and all the other perversions that have come about due to fallen human nature – they are generally classified as ‘sin’.
About the ‘wrath of God’- I agree Berean, but the wrath of God comes upon the” sons of disobedience”, not on the believer.
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry. For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience…”
Colossians 3:5,6
And this is why I have concerns about Brian Houston dialoguing with Rob Buckingham (as he apparently told Ben Gresham he would do)….
http://gayambassador.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/rob-buckingham.html
Don’t agree with you, Gordy.
The reason I don’t agree with your legalistic view is based on Romans 7:17-25
So I am not really the one who does this thing; rather it is the sin that lives in me…… (Read to the end)
That’s OK if you disagree, Annette, but what Berean says in response is correct Biblically, and I’m not being legalistic, just pointing out what scripture says. We are responsible for our own sin.
Romans 7 isn’t the beginning or end of what Paul is saying. We always need to read the previous and following chapters to gain the full context.
Annette, you are right about what you said earlier. Sexual sin is a sin against the body. It is also joining oneself to another soul.
But all sexual sin is sin. The devil doesn’t make the person do it. They do it for themselves. They make the decision. The only exception would be for victims of rape or abuse.
What I am trying to point out is that blaming the devil for a person’s sin risks the concept that the person has no responsibility for their own sin, and therefore should not be condemned for their sin. If you make homosexuality, for instance, the result of demonic possession, then no one here should be condemning homosexuals for doing what the devil forces them to do.
If it is a sin of the flesh, as the scriptures clearly indicate, then the responsibility is with the person.
@ annette – We sin because we are sinners. Yes there is the reality of demonic oppression BUT its cause is our sinful nature!
James 1:4 “Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire”
Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.”
These are “works of the flesh”
Satan may tempt us to do something (as he did even with Christ) and the choices we make are ours and ours alone
But we have a very great savior who says in 1 Cor 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
Romans 6:11-15 “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
So even the apostle Paul acknowledges his own struggle towards the end of his life ( and I find that so humbling) …..
Romans 7:20 “Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.”
Because of our new nature we no longer desire to live in sin and we find ourselves hating it when we do, and then as we repent we experience the beautiful conviction, forgiveness and grace of the Holy Spirit..
I don’t totally agree. Sometimes we can get beyond repentance and also our will can be broken. Some people can’t stop themselves, or control themselves. This can happen with child abuse. Their spirit is so young and tender and are forced to do things against their own will. They get into bondage as they have been opened up to demonic forces that eventually take over. Their spirit hides, it’s not really them that you see. Thats when only the Power of God can release them. He sets the captives free, releases them from prison. My personal experience: I had a really bad anger problem and couldn’t stop myself, no matter how hard I tried. The Holy Spirit did an inner work in me, over a period of time and now I don’t struggle with anger. Many people have mentioned how much I’ve changed, even non Christians. I tell them that Jesus set me free. Even I am amazed at the change. I wanted to change but couldnt. The thing I wanted to do I couldn’t do. The thing I didn’t want to do I did. It was a nightmare. I said sorry to God so many times but nothing changed. Thank you Jesus
Great story, Annette, and thanks for sharing it. I agree with what you say. This is deliverance. I had a similar experience with a drinking problem. God set me free completely.
However, the majority of issues we deal with are, as Berean points out, works of the flesh, over which we need to take authority through the Word and Spirit.
Maybe the majority of issues you deal with, but what is happening in our society I don’t think it’s the majority for a lot of people. Church, and Christians can be so shallow!
Gordy, The responsibility that a person has is to rely on Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit to set them free. It’s not our business to judge anyone. Gordy – you mentioned that there is an exception – the victims of rape and abuse. Well Gordy studies have revealed that one in five ( something like that) women have been raped. As for abuse – that’s rampant in our society. Also child sex trafficking, child pedophile rings are happening on a huge scale. So there’s a lot of exceptions – as per your own words Gordy! Get my point!!!!
So, on this basis, are you saying that homosexuals can’t help themselves, so they should not be condemned, only accepted? In which case you agree with Ben Gresham’s cause?
I don’t think you can apply Romans 7 to what you’re saying. It’s not Christians, who are under grace, who are supposed to have a struggle with sin, because they have died to sin in Christ, and been delivered from darkness, but those who were under the Law of Moses, as Paul points out, who faced the terrible dilemma of being convicted by the Law but, because of the Adamic nature of sin, unable to resist the sin which the Law condemned, which is exactly why we need Christ, his cross, and to be delivered, through the death of the cross, from the law of sin and death into the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
This you’ll find in Romans 8.
Christians are still under grace and definitely still struggle with sin. I’ve never met a perfect Christian ever. We have died to sin – in Christ, positionally, ie when God looks at us he sees Christ as we are hidden in Christ, so God doesn’t see our sin. It’s ridiculous to say that Christians don’t sin! I suppose that way of thinking is why so many Christian leaders are full of pride and look down on others. As for what homosexuals struggle with, I don’t understand as I’m not homosexual. I’m not familiar with Ben Greshams cause. However what matters is our attitude to sin, are we praying and asking God to help us overcome, if so then Gods grace is there for us, if not then I suppose there’s condemnation.
@ Gordy
“It’s not Christians, who are under grace, who are supposed to have a struggle with sin, because they have died to sin in Christ, and been delivered from darkness”
Steve, I hope you’re not trying to introduce the false doctrine of “sinless perfection” here. That really is a throwback to the old Charismatic movement. This concept would certainly cause confusion amongst the sheep, particularly if they found themselves in the midst of a struggle against a ‘besetting sin’ as evidenced in Hebrews 12:1and it would certainly contraven the apostle John’s teaching:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1John 1:8, 9)
Annette, be encouraged, keep on walking with Jesus and know that His shed blood cleanses you from all sin, as you confess and repent of sins that the Holy Spirit brings to your attention. That is the process – conviction, confession, cleansing.
Austin, scripture is clear on this. Romans 6 instructs us that we are dead to sin through the crucifixion and therefore should be instruments of righteousness and not sin. We are to consider ourselves dead to sin but alive to righteousness.
Romans 6:5-14
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
I did not say we never sin, but that we should resist sin. If we do sin we can confess that sin and the Father will cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:6 – 2:2
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Also as I mentioned earlier: the proverb thar says the man that sins with the adulterous woman – GOES DOWN TO THE SPIRITS OF THE DEAD – NEVER TO RETURN. Which means sexual sin opens you to the demonic entering into your body. It’s almost impossible to get free, however nothing is impossible with God. It’s funny how sexual sin is so accepted in our society, so how many people have gone down to the spirits of the dead, never to return. Get my point!
Please explain this further, because it is not a doctrine I am familiar with. Which Proverb, and what is the context?
Proverbs 2:16-19 wisdom will save you also from the adulterous woman, from the wayward woman with her seductive words, who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God. Surely her house leads down to death and her paths to the spirits of the dead. None who go to her return or attain the paths of life.
Taken from Berean’s link above:
http://gayambassador.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/rob-buckingham.html
“The message preached by Pastor Rob Buckingham ‘Real Christianity – the accepting Church’ at Bayside church in Melbourne. During the sermon Ps Rob Buckingham dispelled many of the myths about gay and lesbian people and also that the Sodom and Gomorrah story has nothing to do with homosexuality as we know it today. Not only is the message a global first, the entire congregation gave him a standing ovation at the conclusion of the message.” Apostacy unlimited?
Well, I don’t know where ‘pastor’ Buckingham gets his ‘Soddom and Gomorrah’ story from, but mine comes from Genesis 19:1 – 29. I won’t quote it in full, but here’s a link to the Bible Gateway website:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A1-29&version=NIV;KJV
Most of the relevant scripture passages, written by apostles, have been quoted during this lengthy series of posts (37 at the time of writing,) so there’s no point regurgitating them, but the question remains: how can Rob Buckingham cross the line and deny the truth of those passages, and declare that:
“the Sodom and Gomorrah story has nothing to do with homosexuality as we know it today.”
Most of those passages speak of impending judgement on the purpetrators of such deeds, but here we have a ‘pastor’ saying that his church will work with gays, “as is, where is”? So Rob, if you’re out there, or anyone who might agree with your stance is looking on, then how would you explain this major paradigm shift in thinking and the expression of that thought, which looks very much like a compromise, and anything but a a stand for Bible based truth?. God’s word is clear:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” 2 Tim 3:16
So if we don’t get our doctrine on sexual behaviour/sinful misbehaviour from the whole counsel of God (the Bible,) then where do we get it?
Further down, the author of the article states:
“God has given Ps Rob the insight, courage and grace to create a new world for so many of Gods damaged GLBT people that will bring healing and empower others to do things better in the future. This message will literally save lives and contribute enormously to end the unnecessary suffering experienced by GLBT people who are still in churches as well as those who have left.”
Who said that gays that are simply ‘attending church’ are in fact “God’s damaged GLBT people”?
What about ‘God’s thieving people’, or God’s ‘drunken people’, or His ‘adulterous people’, I wonder just how ‘pastor’ Buckingham would deal with that little bundle of sinners? Would they get special treatment, or would they be shunned away from the mega church scene as they are here in Brisbane?
Believe me saints, there are very few churches that are considerate of such people – there are currently three in the inner city that will go much beyond a monthly lunch or some ‘welfare grab’ type handouts. I’ve only seen two churches right in central Brisbane that actually bend over backwards and lay down thei rlives for these kinds of people.
The rest have blithely say “that’s not my ministry” and have walked away.
@ Austin – didn’t they forget to read Titus 1:6-7 ? ?
“And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”
Berean, I have a bit to say about the angelic rebellion in Heaven. I believe that Lucifer sold them the same lie (independence from God = attaining your own godhood,) as Adam and Eve were sold in the Garden of Eden. That’s why Lucifer was able to deceive one third of the angels into following him. He promised them independence from God = power and knowledge and a “do your own thing” approach. The results were made clear in Genesis 6:4, and shortly after that, judgement began to fall in the form of the flood.
Let’s face it, if you do not seperate yourself from the one true God of the Bible, then you are still subject to Him. If however, you rebel against the Lord, you can then use occult power and knowledge in order to maintain that rebellious independence.
You can be deceived into thinking and believing that you can attain the status of ‘godhood’, as Copeland and the false teachers of Hyper Faith have taught. You can become a ‘little god’ so to speak, and that is where the Satanic deception really begins in earnest. Mormons and those from the metaphysical mind/science cults teach that ‘godhood’ is attainable too. Where did they get this idea? Lucifer…
Anyone (whether they are straight or gay) can be deceived along those lines, and this often begins with the prideful assertion that you don’t have to submit to the constraints of orthodox doctrine and practice – after all, if you have just become ‘god’ (even a little god) then you can start to make up your own rules, or simply have none at all. Anything goes…
Anyone who follows Hyper Faith teaching to its ultimate ends, will find themselves making it all up as they go along, simply because they think they can. Scripture becomes less and less relevant, as the Satanic master plan of the ages comes to a close, and all of that “old school” stuff about there being scriptural boundaries, checks and balances, or being accountable to other men of God, is thrown out the window.
You are “God” now, and not just the ‘little god’ that you used to be. Pride has puffed you out to a larger size. As the deception grows deeper and gets far away from anything Biblical in faith or deed, you will all of a sudden find yourself inviting anything and anyone into your “church”.
As I said previously, a false ‘god’ along with ‘another Jesus’ a ‘different gospel’, and ‘another spirit’, is how it all hangs together. This is not always readily seen clearly though, as the deception is very cleverly hidden by men who are articulate in their speech, double minded in their thinking, and diabolical when the sheep’s clothing is finally peeled away to reveal the wolves.
@ Annette – when you say “It’s not our business to judge anyone”, what do we do with scriptures that say the opposite?
John 7:24 “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
We are to “judge” sin, but in a manner that offers the answer i.e. Jesus Christ. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his responsibility to respectfully and with love, confront the person with his sin.
Matthew 18:15-17 ““If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established.”
This is not judging,
We are to “judge” sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences – our Lord, Jesus Christ
And because we DO sin daily and sin much, be encouraged by this….
1 John1:5-9 “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
God’s forgiveness is immediate as we confess our need of it, not on the basis of any acts we have done to earn it, but solely because of His grace. His righteousness has already been imputed to us – it’s a free gift you will never have taken from you.
We cannot glory in anything we have done ourselves. HE is the author and perfecter of our faith. It’s all of Christ.
This is why I love the words in the hymn “Rock of Ages”…
“Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling; naked, come to thee for dress; helpless, look to thee for grace; foul, I to the fountain fly; wash me, Savior, or I die.”
Berean – John 7:24 Stop judging by external standards, but judge by true standards. Jesus is saying this to the Jewish authorities. If a boy is circumcised on the Sabbath so that Moses’ Law is not broken, why are you angry with me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath.
However, when I say we are not to judge others struggle with sin I am referring to the context of Romans 2 – as we all struggle with sin.
This is not the same as the requirement to judge what leaders in the church are doing and saying, as they are in a position of great influence over people’s lives and salvation.
I agree. With respect it was trying to understand your comment above “I think demons and sin are the same thing, that’s just my opinion” that got us to where we are now.
I think we are just misunderstanding each other. 🙂
This is just a reflection of where western society is heading. Nothing can be difficult, the benchmark must be set as low as possible to allow for everyone. It’s the rise of western socialism.
Tough questions or standards are things of the past. Look at “Gordy’s” responses, it’s symptomatic of the way many churches now water down the message. It’s all about good times, everyone gets a prize. Churches like Hillsong and C3 are businesses, and you don’t run a good profitable business by upsetting your customers. Which brings me to my next point because I do want to mention it:
Gordy I’ve noticed how you keep highlighting gossip. Well do you know what’s not gossip? A family torn apart by C3’s relentless demands for more money, fuelled by false prophesies. What’s not gossip is a family member contemplating suicide because after handing $hundreds of thousands to C3 because so many “blessings” would go their way, but didn’t, became bankrupt and was suddenly shunned by the church and their form friends. Why? Because church is all about good times, and you can’t have the good vibes ruined by someone broken by false prophesies pointing out the lies. It’s bad for business.
So Gordy while you think it’s all fun and games, sites like this and C3W help a lot of people broken and spat out by those you make apologies for. And if it leads to one person in a congregation somewhere asking themselves “why are these pastors awarded doctorates from questionable institutions”? “Why is the church so secretive about its finances”, “Why did the pastor just twist the meaning of those verses to suit him”, “Why isn’t Phil telling us all the facts for the Kong Hee case”? It might inspire them to open their bible and check for themselves what nonsense is being taught. It might inspire them to notice that the congregation is being influenced by the background music, not the Holy Spirit.
I’m sorry about your problems and pain, Icarus, it must be awful for you all, but, with respect, I think this particular conversation is about Hillsong. The post is about the claim that Hillsong is grooming members to embrace a gay Christian lifestyle.
I am commenting on this. I am challenging both the concept that they are grooming people, which has obvious sinister undertones, and that they have an agenda to include a doctrine which allows for the homosexual lifestyle.
Nor do I minister a watered down gospel, as you falsely claim.The truth is you don’t know what I preach. As I have already stated to Austin, who made similar claims, I minister very strong message which includes what sin is and the consequences. The important thing, though, is what Christ has done for the sinner to redeem him or her and bring them to the Father.
The highlight of ‘gossip’ was, I admit, intentional, and slightly tongue in cheek, to be truthful, but I could have highlighted any sin and it would have illicit end a reaction in someone. I’m very sorry it had such an effect on you. That part was not intentional.
Austin also reacted and took hold of ‘spite’ for his objection. If you read the New Testament you will find a large list of other sins which might also affect you. Best to be free from sin and walking in the Spirit, against which there is no law.
I’m actually glad you brought it up because it shows that you are starting to get my point. That is, if you highlight one sin, which, in the case of the thread is homosexuality, then you have to take into consideration all other sins, some of which I highlighted, and, whilst your at it, begin your examination at your own conduct.
The only sin which condemns a person to eternal condemnation under the New Testament is unbelief, that is, rejecting Christ. If you accept Christ you will reject sin, resist sin, and, even if you fall, repent of sin to keep yourself unspotted from the world.
As for your other questions, I don’t see that they are relevant to this conversation, but I’m happy to discuss them with you elsewhere.
“I am commenting on this. I am challenging both the concept that they are grooming people”
You came here calling everyone a “gossip”. If you wanted to address just the grooming issue, you would have dropped the other stuff. But you did have the good grace to apologise for that, so thank you. It did have a strong effect and there are reason for that, but we’ll move on.
As for your other questions, I don’t see that they are relevant to this conversation, but I’m happy to discuss them with you elsewhere.
I doubt it. It’s all a bit too hard for you so you’ll just ignore it right?
you should be cautious about making claims that it is the music which affects people towards repentance and change and not the Holy Spirit.
The background music played is as per an agenda influence the mood. Show me any C3 worship session and I’lll show you the theory at work. Volume changes, repetition you name it, it’s all there to manipulate an emotional high. Not surprisingly there are plenty of clips of Phil Pringle when the music is doing it’s thing, ask for money…
Oops italics left on! Oh well, makes it look classy…
Incidentally, it has been my observation when preaching, which I have done a lot of through the years, that when I step up the intensity and warn people about sin, judgment and the consequences of sin, the atmosphere is generally charged and the result powerful.
Our message is, of course, the good news, but when led by the Holy Spirit to temper it with the many warnings, rebukes and admonitions given in the Old and New Testaments, the good news is brought into better perspective.
So I’ll ask, please, that you refrain from the claim that I neglect this part of the gospel message. I don’t think you know as much about what is preached and taught in the many churches represented by the movements you oppose as you think.
Secondly, you should be cautious about making claims that it is the music which affects people towards repentance and change and not the Holy Spirit. That is very similar to the accusations made about Jesus when the Pharisees said he cast out demons by Beelzebub.
The Holy Spirit confirms the Word preached, regardless of whether there is music or not.
Well Steve, as a little nightcap, I have to say that your ‘reassuring’ response is music to my ears!
Gordy, do you have any available audio of sermons you have preached…particularly ones where you have preached about sin, repentance and the forgiveness of sins? Personally, I have no idea who you are or what churches you have preached at but would be more than willing to listen to a sermon or two if you can make them available. Thanks!
gordy,
1. you keep talking about “your message.” is the point of your being on here to preach, or what? frankly, to be honest, i wish you would leave, because all you seem to be doing is spreading confusion. maybe it’s time to move on, rather than justifying brian “hillsong” houston, who is not worthy of defense. let him step away from his mogul empire for a few moments and stoop down low enough to come on here and defend himself. i want to see it.
2. arguing / accusing / assuming: YOU more than anyone else. and STOP bashing on Austin. he puts a lot more thinking into his posts than you do, as does Berean, but you just casually waltz on here and YOU know everything.
3. what is this about you don’t “think we know as much about what is preached and taught in the many churches represents by the movements.” oh really??? what another assumption. tell me, what churches have i been to in these movements? can you name just one? please pretty please.
it is clear that hillsong church watch spends H-U-N-D-R-E-D-S of hours providing their articles, these people have their act together. so tell us o highly soul, how many hours have YOU spent of your own time away from “teaching your message”, to study ‘these movements?’ why dont you do a break dance and go into the horrors of the HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT? and why even defend a WOF church to begin with? do you think they belong to the cause of Christ? no, if anyone gets save there, it is only in spite of them.
and for the vast majority “the churches represented by these movements we oppose”, yes they DO DO DO ascribe to the beliefs and leaders of the movements. they follow along like little chickens marching into the barn. MANY OF THE CHURCHES SPRANG DIRECTLY OUT OF THEIR MOVEMENTS, because the churches send out teams. so STOP STOP STOP justifying yourself and anyone else. how about DENNIS MCCALLUM and XENOS? do their churches not ascribe to him??? hmm.
please enlighten me o exalted soul. how many hours (or minutes in your case) have you spent studying ‘these movements?’ where is your discernment website, i want to look and laugh. i live in a hotbed region where 2 of ‘these movements’ have a high presence, and 1 of those is for all practical purposes headquartered nearby. do you want to guess which ones? at least a little guess? in addition there is WCA springing up around here like little flowers in springtime. they did have 2 locations nearby, and recently opened a 3rd. yes, it is so. do you even know what WCA is? why are they bad? WHO is their leader? why is he bad? what do you know?
so what is the end-game here with all these movements? dont you know? havent you heard? no, because if you did, you would not defend ANYTHING ‘these movements’ do. why is RICK WARREN bad? of all the hundreds of people talking about him, and they are correct, i have yet to see ANYONE who has put their finger on the real issue with him. nobody seems to have connected the dots on him yet. i’m just waiting to see who will be the first to post it somewhere.
a local ‘Christian’ pastor i watched minister almost 40 years ago, is not teaching his ‘Christian’ congregation to follow Christianity + Taoism, because he thinks it gives them extra knowledge. Now he has on his website, that Jesus is “NOT” the only path to God. he clearly states this. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
another pastor here, has been in the ministry 50 years, but he fell under the WOF and NAR spell years ago, and has yet to recover. he too is leading his congregation astray.
disclaimer: i do not think you are “all” bad, but i do think you “do not belong here”, any more than dean who gains his income from running his own “c3 franchise” and would have to lose his income to admit he’s wrong. maybe it wasn’t so clear he was wrong when he started it 17 years ago, but it is now. the cost of following Christ is not cheap.
your motives for being on here are weird. and i will only respond to you if i feel like it.
~Andy
Thanks for that, Andy. I love you too.
1. I actually mentioned ‘our’ message, which is the message handed to us, meaning all Christians, all disciples, by Christ, who said “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
One reason I came unto this conversation is to ask for a reason for claiming that Brian is ‘grooming’ his members to embrace gay Christianity. I am not the only person to have challenged this. It seems there are others who support the post, but some do not.
Are you saying that you think Brian Houston is ‘grooming’ people to embrace gay Christianity? You do know that ‘grooming’ usually refers to people with wicked sexual intentions, don’t you? ‘Grooming refers to the pedophiles who prepare their victims beforehand. That is clearly the connotation, which the writer of the post has not denied or clarified.
Secondly I do not believe that Brian is promoting homosexuality as a lifestyle. I do not think he has said this at all. We may differ in opinion on this, but giving a opinion isn’t wrong when there is insufficient evidence to prove a claim.
2. I am not ‘bashing’ Austin. I am conversing with him. In fact, he levelled some charges at me and I refuted them. That is not bashing, unless you are very sensitive. he seems to have accepted my qualification of what I preach. As I said to him, I wish no one any ill will. If he or anyone else makes a false charge and I am available to answer it then i should be given the space to do so.
3. I wasn’t actually addressing you. This is the first time you have addressed me, so I do not know which churches you have been to. I was talking to Austin and Icarus who certainly do to know what i preach, or what is preached in the churches I attend. I’m sure they can emend their position if they want to. And they did make assumptions and level accusations which wee incorrect. No harm in putting the record straight, surely.
As for the study of movements, I’ve been around them since they began and remain engaged presently. It doesn’t matter how many hours your friends may have put into their ‘study’ if they get things wrong. I don’t say all things they say are wrong, but certainly some that I have been able to point out.
I think you’d be surprised at the diversity of teaching and ministry emphasis in these churches. There is a commonality of purpose and ethos, but the influences and emphasis differ. When you suggest they are dictated to you demonstrate your actual lack of knowledge of what is taught.
You don’t have to talk to me. I will talk to just about anyone about things to do with faith, ministry and the gospel, so feel free to discuss issues. By the way, I don’t know very much about anything, and basically only talk about things I do have some kind of handle on, so please don’t make the accusation that I think I know it all. I certainly do not. That’s why I like to talk to people about stuff. It’s amazing what you can learn if you stay open and free. You might even learn something from a prune like me. Now there’s a scary thought, eh, Andy!
@ Andy, thanks for your support. It takes a lot of energy to “converse” with Steve/Gordy even on a good day. He’s always got a comeback and it’s not usually edifying either. I get a bit fed up with the twisted versions of ‘what I said’ etc, the convoluted logic, circular reasoning and his constant devtion to the ‘pastor worship’ of people who don’t even qualify for Christian ministry.
Never mind the false doctrine or spiteful back biting. Everything that seems ‘right’ about this guy is just a smoke screen to hide his errant nonsense behind, the next time around.
I was going to post the following last night, but it was late, so I pasted it into Word and slept on it, but now you have confirmed some of my thoughts as to Gordy/Steve’s real agenda, here it is:
“Steve/Gordy/whatever, you are once more kicking the sheep while they are down. I am amazed at how you can just ignore what Icarus has said, and in brushing his concern and heartache aside, continue on with your vain babblings, while defending the undefendable. Defending Hillsong and C3 is more important, isn’t it? The endless debate is more important that hurting sheep?
It is obvious that you have come over here with your loaded messages, in order to get the sheep to bite on your poison pen posts – well, you’ve had your fun, and once more proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you are no more than a hireling in the service of heretical and ungodly movements, despite you apparent eloquence (online Thesaurus?) and charming manner – at times. Your true personality shines through, however…
Perhaps it would be better, for those who are broken and wounded from their shabby handling by these mega church money raking machines, if you were to just go back to your own blog site for a while, and leave the good shepherds here to help them out in the word and in their faith?
I can’t see anything real coming from this constant diatribe of yours, as you just sit there, parroting standard answers to these heartbroken souls, while using the scriptures as a smoke screen, like a Pharisee. It is also obvious from their sharing today that they do know the Gospel, and can tell instictively when something off the wall has been said. I appreciate what all of you good folks have contributed in defence of the Gospel,
I am proud of the stand you folks have collectively taken here over the last few days against the heresies that have come to light in the mega church scene, and the unbiblical nonsense of Gordy/Steve and his well camouflaged attacks on all of us, using his polished language and disarming manner (only to see him attack the sheep like a wolf when it suits him soon after.)
You are more than capable of “giving an answer to anyone who enquires” of you. You may not be Theologians, and neither am I, but dealing with people like Gordy is good for us, from time to time. However, some of you may be in need of a good rest beside green pastures and still waters. Not the “babbling” of his bilge water brook.
Some of you need time and space to grow and to regain your trust and confidence in a restored relationship with the the Lord once more. I trust that you will receive this as an encouragement and not some condescending rant…
In the meantime, I’ll leave the following scripture for Gordy/Steve to meditate on, so he may discern just what spirit it is behind these man made movements, which have no part in the kingdom of God:
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive”
Ephesians 4:14
That’s amazing, Austin. One minute what I say is ‘music to your ears’, an the next I’m Vlad the Impaler.
If you read what both Icarus and Andy said you will have to agree that they were rather rough on poor old Vlad, though. Perhaps Vladdy should just let people rant on and say nothing, since it is part of their therapy evidently.
I merely came on here to ask if people actually agree that Brian Houston is ‘grooming’ his members to embrace the gay lifestyle, and to add that I think that is a wrong assumption. It was you who then decided to go for Vlad’s jugular, so plea excuse the poor Impaler for trying to put the record straight.
Maybe you’d prefer to make these heavy claims against Hillsong and have no one suggest they may be over the top. That way you can have free license to defame Hillsong and whoever you feel like today.
Or maybe you just got out on the wrong side of the bed!
Andy, here’s Steve’s “discernment” website – see if you can discern what it’s all about…
https://c3churchwatchwatch.wordpress.com/
austin, thanks for pointing out that other website. i had not seen that one before, but yeah, it took me a couple minutes of sifting through much unnecessary verboseness, to spot way too much bad information. that is not a reliable source of data by anybody’s standards. the author there is not living in reality. and i am being more than generous in my assessment.
i connect a lot of dots others dont, and i really dont like speaking about it too much.
btw, your steadfastness and passion for truth are very commendable brother,
~Andy
Andy, I am interested in your own perspective on Rick Warren. Feel free to drop by TNP (thenarrowingpath.com), search for ‘Rick Warren’ and comment there on one of the posts. I have a number of ‘dots’ I have connected and would love to compare notes. Blessings, Sherryn.
correciton: a local ‘Christian’ pastor i watched minister almost 40 years ago, is NOW (not “NOT”) teaching his congregation to follow Christianity + Taoism.
what a disgrace.
“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them
@ Gordy/Steve, “I merely came on here to ask if people actually agree that Brian Houston is ‘grooming’ his members to embrace the gay lifestyle, and to add that I think that is a wrong assumption. It was you who then decided to go for Vlad’s jugular, so plea(se) excuse the poor Impaler for trying to put the record straight.”
Yes, but after ‘merely coming here for on the surface reasons’ you then proceeded to imaple each and every poster on one or more of you well prepared wooden stakes, for one and all to see.
Vlad could takes lessons from you Gordy, and go away with 1st prize at next years Impalement contest…
Exposure of error and statement of truth does not lead to defamation – it does lead to a “definition’ and that is wht is being worked through here. The blog is actually in the process of defining just what it is that motivates these false prophets (besides power and money.)
They then seek to articulate those findings into something that people can understand, while providing documentation that the readers can pursue to satisfy themselves one way orthe other. Who said that any statement made by you has equal weight, seeing that you’ve not even provided one link to another source in support of any of your biased and flakey counter claims? Where’s your ‘proof’ Gordy? Endless reams of out of context scripture?
You have constantly decried their findings as untrue, but have not properly investigated their claims for yourself. If you had done so, then you would begin to see little chinks of light shining through the smoke machine induced haze that attends all of their major events, and would have withdrawn from their circles of influence a long time ago.
For defamation to occur, a person or organisation must have been disenfranchised from their community or interest (friends, family, workplace, social engagements) and be seen to be held in ridicule by the wider community – (and please note – this definition does not constitute legal or other professional advice,) but that in essence, is what a defamation must achieve for it to be seen as a defaming action.
I think that both Brian and Phil are a long way (light years) from being the victims of any such critical event, as 30,000 gullible souls continue to flock to their woeful Sunday morning offerings week after week, only to be soon parted from their hard earned cash, and used up as foot soldiers for the cause.
It is true to say that any judgement brought by the church must, as Jesus taught, be the results of righteous judgement. This means that matters of importance before the church must have been investigated, credible and reliable witnesses sought, and the testimony of all those witnesses be duly considered before a ‘verdict’ can be given.
So what is different from the teachings of Jesus on “judgement” as compared to what the C3 and HS church watcher blog sites are doing? Matters are properly investigated (this can take months of searching) credible witnesses are either eye witnesses, including former ministers and/or employees of those who are beign investigated, and o one that i am aware of, comes to “overnight conclusions”.
So following the Biblical method of “righteous judgement” is relatively safe, and if the facts of the matter are proven beyond a reasonable doubt (by mp3 recordings, video footage of the preacher stating their beliefs, emails, snippets from Facebook, other blogsites etc) then I would have to say that a body of evidence does exists.
Just because you disagree with the outcomes, or some of the source material, makes that outcome no less true, and if you haven’t done any homework on the topic and can provide evidence to the contrary (and of the same standard) then who do you think the crowd at the watcher blogsites are going to believe?
So Steve/Gordy/Faithlift – either put up (your own evidence) or shut up – for good!
Nice waffle, Austin. I’m sure it means something to someone.
I am actually asking for evidence that Hillsong is ‘grooming’ its members to embrace the gay lifestyle. So far I only see innuendo and supposition.
Do you think ‘grooming’ is an appropriate term? Isn;t it suggestive of preprig people for something sinister?
Can you support the obvious insinuation in the claim that future Hillsong members will be encouraged to enter into gay and lesbian relationships if they so choose, which is surely the outcome if the post is correct?
Feel free to give a credible answer to the ‘waffle’, posted above if you dare, and then take stock of the twisted post that you just posted.
The aim of this thread is to expose the fact the the mega churches are dumping off time honoured and correct interpretations of the scriptures. It goes way beyond any one issue, and extends as far as to the methodology and motive of the leaders of these false man made movements.
This helps to establish a pattern of deceipt so that when future issues based on compromise may arise, the pattern will be further clarified as a ‘modus operandi’ of how business is done within the mega church movement.
If Brian Houston intends to ‘dialogue’ with other ‘pastors’ (Rob Buckinham et al) who are opening the floodgates to disaster, under the guise of “love” then Hillsong stands on dangerous ground indeed. Those who are thus affected may not find true salvation withn the confines of the mega church system.
“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:26,27
Mega-churches? Really? You’ve extended the argument somewhat. Which? Even Hillsong isn’t doing that. All that has taken place here is a patently false claim.
The issue, in fact, is whether the headline in the post is at all accurate. It isn’t. And you have just admitted to pre-empting something which has not taken place. That is called supposition or innuendo. Take your pick.
Austin asks, “So what is different from the teachings of Jesus on “judgement” as compared to what the C3 and HS church watcher blog sites are doing?”
Jesus says, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Jesus says, “You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.”
Jesus says, “If anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”
I don’t know if this answers your question, but I can’t see where Jesus tells us to judge anyone, excel maybe ourselves.
Gordy: Very *convenient* quoting out-of-context there. If you are a preacher (as you claim) you should know far better than most in how to apply the “who, what, when, where, why and how” principles in interpreting the bible.
Sermon on the Mount: “Do not judge lest you be judged…..” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A1-6&version=NKJV
Jesus said we ARE to remove the speck from our brother’s eye (after we have removed the log from our own). You contradicted Jesus when you omitted that.
Talking to Pharisees: “I judge no one….”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+8%3A13-20&version=NKJV
Note very next sentence: “16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.” So Jesus DID judge. Again you contradicted Jesus.
Talking to many people: “…16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12%3A42-50&version=NKJV
Note next sentence: “48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
Therefore Jesus’ word WILL judge people. The apostles all preached Jesus’ word as well, including all the politically incorrect passages that offend the unsaved world and Christians whose minds have not been renewed sufficiently. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+12%3A1-2&version=NKJV
Are *your* words in accordance with what *Jesus Himself* said? Everyone who takes the time to check the bible passages above will see that they are not.
Gordy: Very *convenient* quoting out-of-context there. If you are a preacher (as you claim) you should know far better than most in how to apply the “who, what, when, where, why and how” principles in interpreting the bible. (Used Biblegateway website, NKJV version for those not used to “thees and thous”.)
Sermon on the Mount: “Do not judge lest you be judged…..” Whole passage: Matthew 7:1-6. Jesus said we ARE to remove the speck from our brother’s eye (after we have removed the log from our own). You contradicted Jesus when you omitted that.
Talking to Pharisees: “I judge no one….” Whole passage: John 8:13-20
Note very next sentence: “16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.” So Jesus DID judge. Again you contradicted Jesus.
Talking to many people: “…16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.” Whole passage: John 12:42-50.
Note next sentence: “48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
Therefore Jesus’ word WILL judge people. The apostles all preached Jesus’ word as well, including all the politically incorrect passages that offend the unsaved world and Christians whose minds have not been renewed sufficiently. (Romans 12:1-2)
Are *your* words in accordance with what *Jesus Himself* said? Everyone who takes the time to check the bible passages above will see that they are not.
That’s exactly what came into my spirit., when I read your words. We are to judge no-one, except ourselves.
“We are to judge no-one, except ourselves.”
Hi Annette,
How do you preach the gospel without judging people? The topic of “judging others” is worth a biblical study. We encourage you to do this. You might get a surprise what the bible teaches how Christian’s should judge. Austin’s rebuttal to Steve was very good.
But where does Jesus tell us to judge anyone? He doesn’t.
As I said, judge the doctrine, test the spirits, contend for the faith, wrestle demons, bring down strongholds of human reasoning, but when it comes to judging people, that is Christ’s alone when the time comes, as Paul says.
I said nothing out of context. I merely added scripture and made no comment. It is you who have made assumptions about what I have said. Again.
The only context in which I can find a place for judgment is in disputes between Christians.
Perhaps you can show us scripture which authorises us to judge people.
“But where does Jesus tell us to judge anyone? He doesn’t.”
That is a lie Steve and you know it.
Gordy- are your reading comprehension skills really that limited that you cannot receive the overall message intended for ALL Christians in passages like 1 Corinthians chapter 5* (especially verses 9-13), 2 Peter chapter 2 and 1 Timothy 6:3-5?
Q:Who did the apostles get their teaching from?
A: Jesus Christ Himself.
*Hint: how can they be commanded to punish that unrepentant sinner if Christians are not permitted to judge others (as you claim)?
Thinker, where did I quote anything out of context? I didn’t say anything about the scripture. I only added the verse, vis a vis:
Jesus says, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
No comment on this, just the scripture.
Jesus actually said he did not judge, but *if* he had judged, his judgment would be just. The implication is that he could judge, but chose not to. Of course he can judge. We all can. We all do. But he is advocating that we do not. It’s a very difficult thing to pull off, isn’t?
Churchwatcher says that Jesus tells us to judge people, but I can’t find it in the gospels. I am open to be shown where Jesus tells us to judge people. Then I wouldn’t have to repent of it when I do, and, just like you, I do it all the time. But he says don’t do it so I have to repent again.
I know we can judge doctrine, test spirits, contend for the faith, pull down the strongholds of human reason with the Word of God, resist the devil, resist sin, stay away from the counsel of the scornful, scoffers and sinners, discern spirits, provide a reason for our belief, and the like, but I can’t find where we wrestle with flesh and blood.
2 Corinthians 5:16
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
The question Austin asked was to compare what Jesus said on judgment with what you say.
Can you show us where Jesus told us to judge people, churchwatcher?
Gordy, Jesus was telling us to not be HYPOCRITES- and used that word as well- not NOT to judge. To remove the log from our own eyes BEFORE we removed the speck from our brother’s eye, NOT don’t remove that speck EVER because we are sinners too.
Don’t assume that other people have reading comprehension difficulties!!!!
And then there is, of course, Paul. What does he say about judgement?
Paul says, “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”
Paul says, “Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.”
Paul says, “But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”
Paul says, “Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.”
Paul says, “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.”
Paul says, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”
I think it’s the doctrine we check against the Word, isn’t it, and we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against wicked spirits, and we examine ideologies and reasonings against the Word of God, and contend for the faith, and continue established in the gospel we have heard, but judgment is the work of the Holy Spirit, is it not?
If you have the Holy Spirit then you should be judging – judging righteously in accordance with God’s Word. Christians as they grow in spiritual maturity can separate truth from error AND speak that truth.
P.S. please show the bible passages *in context* along with the isolated verses you are quoting to benefit readers less familiar with the bible.
@ Steve/Gordy “And then there is, of course, Paul. What does he say about judgement?”
Most of the scriptures you have listed (without references) are to do with personal or civil matters. Paul spoke to the Corinthians about not taking one another to worldly courts in order to sort out their differences. eg:
“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”
(1Corinthians 6:1,2)
Clearly these were civil matters (money loans, property deals, business partnerships that had gone wrong and the like,) they were not serious matters of a doctrinal nature, which often come with eternal consequences.
“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” (Romans 14:10)
This particular verse and the next few verses that follow, are about Christians judging one another in terms of feast days and associated eating habits – once more, there is nothing that is relevant in terms of a serious doctrinal nature.
They are clearly matters of individual conscience before God, and Paul is exhorting the saints to defer to their weaker brethren in some areas, so as to not cause them to stumble in their faith towards God.
There is no “heresy” as such, but the issues that come out of people from different social and cultural backgrounds getting together in the church, and occasionally stepping on each other’s toes. Paul is teaching them how to behave themselves better in God’s temple, the Church.
Clearly, none of what you have said in this post is relevant to how we, as Christians are commanded to ‘test the spirits’, in order to determine what ‘spirit’ is behind the doctrine being taught. Is it Christ or Antichrist? One or the other… that should be the question.
“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise of God.” ! Cor 4:5
A very cunning quote to end your diatribe on Steve, hoping that I and others will take the bait, and accuse certain people of being caught up in the “hidden things of darkness”, so that you can come back with your baseball bat and take another swing at us?
Maybe…
Steve’s previous post is what I meant earlier, when I said “endless reams of scripture, quoted out of context” That is vintage Steve/Gordy/Faithlift – in full flight…
Well the scriptures have their own context. You have rightly stated that many are civil judgements, but you have not shown where even Paul authorises judgment.
This is pretty conclusive though:
Paul says, “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”
We wrestle not against flesh and blood…
If any of you doubt that the Bible gives the Christian to “judge” any one or any doctrine put before it, then just go to this link:
http://www.av1611.org/crock/judbynum.html
There are several pages that show how the Bible teaches us to judge false prophets, doctrinal error and how to behave towards those who would try and deceive God’s people away fromthe simplicity that is in Christ.
Often the word translated “judge” means to discern, to weigh up, to evaluate, and then theres the other form of the word – to bring into judgement – to proclaim a verdict, to give an assessment, to judge whether a person, a doctrine or an action is of God or not.
Judging with righteous judgement, with all the facts carefully considered, it appears to me that we have a perfect right exercise both forms of jugement within the church
Well, no you’ve extended the search facility to include the whole Bible, Austin. And you’ve shifted from what Jesus said on judging to discernment, testing spirits, knowing good from evil, and the like. That wasn’t what you originally requested. You named Jesus and his teaching on judgment.
As I have said at least three times, we are told to judge doctrine, discern spirits, contend for the faith, give a reason for our hope, cast down human reasonings with the Word of God, and yes, expose false doctrine, reject false prophets, etc..
I added these things three times and you completely ignored them in favour of pursuing scriptures I did not comment on and making assumptions about them. Amazing!
I wouldn’t disagree with E L Bynum on his exegesis, except to say that his treatment of what Jesus says about specks/planks is not quite right. Jesus wasn’t saying that we could judge someone if we didn’t engage in the same sin as Bynum claims. That is missing the point entirely. Jesus is saying judge yourself completely before you determine to pass judgment on another person. Better still, don’t judge at all. That is clearly what he is saying. He is asking if anyone is without sin, because unless you are without sin you should not judge another. Deal with your own sin first before passing judgment. That is very clearly what he is saying. In which case I don’t think many of us, if any, qualify, do you?
This is consistently what I have been saying. You set up the assignment, to compare what Jesus says with what churchwatcher says, and challenged me when I ignored it the first time.
There’s actually a lot more that we agree on than you allow for, but you are so intent with slapping me down and scoring points that you miss most of what I say. I can’t help that.
There is a judgment ebbing made on this post, which is that Hillsong is ‘grooming’ members to embrace the gay lifestyle.
Now tell me if this is a righteous judgment made without a plank in they of the accuser.
@ Austin & Gordy – in Ben Gresham’s concluding statement he says…..
“As a gay man and a member of Hillsong Church, I was happy to hear all that Brian had to say, however I was left wanting more… perhaps an apology for everything I went through and for many people in the church treating me so badly when I came out. I also wish Brian’s commitments had been more concrete. It’s been more than a year since our breakfast meeting and very little has changed. I am encouraged when I hear about recent stories of gay and lesbian people coming out and being welcomed at church just as they are. Yet I know of other stories where a gay man at Hillsong was not allowed to serve at Hillsong Conference because he was in a relationship with another man.”
Is it me, am I only the only one seeing huge discrepancies here. Ben has been a “closeted” gay member of Hillsong for how long? Does anyone know?
The suggestion is that we welcome gays with love and acceptance (of what?) into the church community with the view to their hearing the gospel, repenting from their sinful lifestyle, and rejoice in that transformation.
Great, we all want to see that not just from gays but all SINNERS.
If the gospel has been truly preached by Brian Houston and Rob Buckingham to the ” 1,200 to 2000 gay and lesbian members of Hillsong Church in Sydney alone”, where are testimonies of these glorious transformations?
“Yet I know of other stories where a gay man at Hillsong was not allowed to serve at Hillsong Conference because he was in a relationship with another man.”
What I’m seeing in Ben’s article is the opposite. He wants acceptance of a practicing homosexual lifestyle, and the last time I checked the Bible, God hasn’t changed his mind about that.
Where’s the gospel I ask again. They’re not hearing it, if it is being preached.
I see what you are saying, Berean, and there is some element of truth to it. I will consider it and get back to you.
Berean, thanks for that reminder. I haven’t forgotten what the thread is all about, but have been taking ‘time out’ to counter Gordy’s bent and twisted views and attitudes on certain points.
As Thinker said above, there are a number of people who come here, who are a lot less familiar with the Bible than others, and thus the need for straigntening some of these unbiblical viewpoints out, before the sheep are lead any further astray.
Here’s a partial quote from my previous post above (May 6, 11:22pm):
“How will the gays and any other sinners who Brian ‘welcomes’ through his front door, hear the Gospel, unless there is a preacher to actually preach the genuine Christian Gospel of repentace unto salvation?
Spoon feeding his new visitors a regular smorgasboard of tithing and prosperity doctrine may well fill the church coffers a little faster, but failing to preach a message on salvation wil not challenge them towards godly sorrow and change, at all.”
So here’s the thing: is there anyone capable of ipreaching a sould savingGospel message within Hillsong, and if so, would they be allowed to preach it say, once a week for three months on end, just to make sure that everybody heard the Gospel and got it right? Or would they just rather keep on with the motivational stuff?
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:14)
As you quote:
“preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things”
Peace. Glad tidings. Good things.
@ Gordy above
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3412
“Well the scriptures have their own context. You have rightly stated that many are civil judgements, but you have not shown where even Paul authorises judgment.”
Well, here it is, in the same post:
“Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” 1 Cor 6:1,2
Paul was exhorting the Corinthians to sort things out amongst themselves, rather than drag their brethren before the worldly court system of the day.
If there were men who were wise enough to be elders in that church, then they were also wise enough to juseg between one brother and another if matters couldn’t be resolved between them. That’s just common sense.
Well Gordy, it seems to me that you have lodged a whole timber yard full of ‘planks’ in our collective eye. But let me just clear the sawdust and termite infested woodwork away for a moment and explain things to you.
“For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”
If you use the righteous judgment that Jesus teaches us to use, then your standard will be the word of God and nothing less. Proper investigation in the light of God’s eternal word will keep the balance and expose false doctrine and those who promote it, which is the proper outcome of all such investigations where doctrine is concerned.
I’ll ask you again – where is you evidence please? Where are the links provided for your evidence to the contrary, which justify your current stance? Or don’t they exist?
Where is your credibility now, after launching attack after attack on the frail and vulnerable sheep who come here to take some comfort after their ordeal at the hands of false shepherds, and to make their thoughts and fears known?
Hiding behind such texts, taken out of context, is the tactic of a false teacher – “judge not” and “touch not the Lord’s anointed” and all such twisted scripture reading only goes to show how conceited and deceived you really are.
You are a spokesman for that which is false and no amount of “correct” scripture quoting, self justifying sludge on your part will show otherwise.
Satan quoted several verses of scripture to Christ, during his temptation in the wilderness, but Jesus, being the very word of God incarnate, soon saw through that deception, and used the correct scriptures that put Satan to flight:
“1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him”
(Matthew 4:1 – 11)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+4:1-11
That was not ‘sawdust’, Austin. That was scripture. You asked for a comparison between what Jesus said on judgment and what c3cw/hsw say. I responded with scripture.
I added what Paul says for good measure.
Are you rejecting what Jesus and Paul said?
You may well have done all of the above, but you completely ignored what I and others have been saying all day. I’ll let Thinker speak for me, as I believe that he has summed up your little game rather well:
“Gordy: Very *convenient* quoting out-of-context there. If you are a preacher (as you claim) you should know far better than most in how to apply the “who, what, when, where, why and how” principles in interpreting the bible. ”
and from another post of his elsewhere:
“P.S. please show the bible passages *in context* along with the isolated verses you are quoting to benefit readers less familiar with the bible.
Obviously, you have ignored everything he’s had to say too…
So there itis Steve – “termite infested wood and sawdust” are your own misguided ramblings, which I think the sheep are starting to see through…
I would never desecrate the word of God with such terminology.
Well, no, Austin. Again, I just added the scripture. You asked what Jesus said about judgment, and I showed you…
Jesus says, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Then added Paul for good measure…
Paul says, “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”
How can it be out of context if it is only the scripture without a commentary?
Then you add a rule that I must add commentary, but you only asked for what Jesus said.
I think you would be better to read what Jesus says, because he is pretty clear about it, as is Paul. It needs no explanation, really.
And I don’t think he is advocating judgment with his plank/speck comparison, is he? Is any of us plank-free? Are you?
I do believe that true conversion from a gay lifestyle happens more often than the gay community wants to acknowledge…
“As a leftist lesbian professor, I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one.”
“The word Jesus stuck in my throat like an elephant tusk; no matter how hard I choked, I couldn’t hack it out. Those who professed the name commanded my pity and wrath. As a university professor, I tired of students who seemed to believe that “knowing Jesus” meant knowing little else. Christians in particular were bad readers, always seizing opportunities to insert a Bible verse into a conversation with the same point as a punctuation mark: to end it rather than deepen it.”
“Stupid. Pointless. Menacing. That’s what I thought of Christians and their god Jesus, who in paintings looked as powerful as a Breck Shampoo commercial model.”
“As a professor of English and women’s studies, on the track to becoming a tenured radical, I cared about morality, justice, and compassion. Fervent for the worldviews of Freud, Hegel, Marx, and Darwin, I strove to stand with the disempowered. I valued morality. And I probably could have stomached Jesus and his band of warriors if it weren’t for how other cultural forces buttressed the Christian Right. Pat Robertson’s quip from the 1992 Republican National Convention pushed me over the edge: “Feminism,” he sneered, “encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.” Indeed. The surround sound of Christian dogma comingling with Republican politics demanded my attention.”
Read the rest here….
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html
And here…..
“Rosaria Butterfield – Sexuality, Identity, and the Doctrine of Repentance: My Train Wreck Conversion.”
The parallels between Hillsong and what happened a few years ago in the emergent church movement (thanks to people such as Rob Bell and Tony Jones) are unmistakable. It was a slow ‘grooming’ process in that movement as well, with ambiguous statements and half truths until we end up with statements such as the following (and I could have quoted many, many more emergents speaking in a similar vein):
“The more I follow grace, the more I’m drawn to him (God), the more I’m willing to stand up for people being persecuted,”…“It sounds so churchy, but I felt like God spoke to my heart and said ‘(homosexuality) is not a sin.’ ” Jay Bakker
“All the time I could feel myself drifting toward acceptance that gay persons are fully human persons and should be afforded all of the cultural and ecclesiastical benefits that I am.” Tony Jones
“I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (as least as much as any of us can!), and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state.” Tony Jones
“Christianity will be impotent to lead a conversation on sexuality and gender if we do not bodily integrate our current understandings of humanity with our theology. This will require us to not only draw new conclusions about sexuality but will force us to consider new ways of being sexual.” Jim Wallis
And Rob Bell, who in this following statement could not be more clear about where his early ambiguous ‘let’s just love gay people’ statements (which I agree with by the way, except that ‘just lovin’g them is calling them to repentance and a new life in Christ) have led to:
http://gnli.christianpost.com/video/rob-bell-affirms-homosexuality-8945
It is a perfectly reasonable for Christians to be concerned that Brian Houston and Hillsong Church will follow the same path and lead people into the same error as the emergent church leaders have done. Preaching a false gospel leads to false conversions, and inevitably results in the acceptance of sinful behaviour without calling for repentance, as seems to be the increasing trend within the church. Hillsong preaches a false gospel. The emergent church preaches a false gospel. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church preaches a false gospel and already, we see the Pope indicating he may support civil unions for homosexuals (a concession previously unheard of in the history of the RCC) making ambiguous statements such as this one:
“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’
Keep watch dear brethren. Love gay people. Tell them the truth in love. And pray that God will save many more before Christ’s return.
Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Well said, young lady! It’s about time that the voice of truth begins to echo down the corridoors of error.
No amount of justifying nonsense, promoted by false ministries will persuade me that Hillsong and others of its ilk, are not sliding down the slippery slope of compromise.
The more they give in, the more the floodgates of Hell will burst open – and surge right on through their front door. No one on this blogsite has expressed any hatred for gays – if anything there are many who would want to rescue them, but this can’t be achieved through compromise.
Acceptance of any sinful lifestyle within Christ’s church is a blatant and open betrayal of all that Jesus did and taught, and the ultimate betrayal of His ultimate sacrifice for sinners And such were some of us…
Austin,
“I’m beginning to wonder if Brian is subtly embracing these people so that they can become his “human shields” – in other words, any attack on Hillsong et al, is automatically perceived as an attack on the gays that are in membership (and possibly also in prominent leadership positions?), and may therefore be subject to antidiscrimination and villification laws?”
You see, that is an example of a judgment made without foundation or fact. It is a plank aimed at creating a speck. It is defaming Hillsong. Are you claiming it as a prophecy?
Blather, blather, blather
@ Gordy above – https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3440
“And you’ve shifted from what Jesus said on judging to discernment, testing spirits, knowing good from evil, and the like”
I was never fixated on just what Jesus said. There is a whole range of tools for the astute believer to use in his search for truth – many passages of scripture that apply to the same sins/false doctrines/false prophets, so why just be fixated on one or two?
And you are quite right Steve Rowe – I am judging with righteous judgement, discerning the motives of all comers, testing ‘spirits’ which are behind modern day man made movements, and knowing good (churches) from evil (ones), as is my God given right and duty to do so.
Did your really think that you could control the conversation with your twisted thinking and expression, which tends to put ‘twists’ in the scriptures you are so fond of misquoting too?
There is no sin in shifting the conversation away from your fixations Steve, and there is much profit, spiritually speaking, in considering the whole counsel of God on a matter.
That is what ‘righteous judgement’ implies – gathering facts from eye witnesses, considering those facts/testimonies in the litght of God’s word and then making a decision, a judgement, an assessment – that’s how it works Steve.
I’m just wondering how things are “discerned” in the “church” where you claim to be the “pastor”? Is there a due process, or is it just your dictatorial word that goes, with all the eldership acitng like a bunch of “yes” men? Is that how you ‘discern’ things at your place Steve?
That’s great, Austin. Thanks.
It seems you have arrived. The righteous judge of all-comers at hillsongchurchwatch. You fit like a glove, and will have free access to a site where you can parade your manifold wisdom, theological prowess, discernment, put-down of those you consider to be cretins, and, of course, righteous judgment.
We should call you Austin the Hammer!
I don’t think ‘controlling the conversation’ will ever be the option for anyone but you, even if they tried, as long as you have free reign to issue forth your views and opinions here. You have finally come home to the perfect vehicle for your logic. Focusing on any topic or having a conversation with anyone else but you about anything at all will be futile as you drive wedges between those who converse by demonstrating your own prowess with… well everything.
I will watch with interest the way in which your predictions of doom and destruction for Hillsong, C3 and their people unfold.
I know you will slap me down for this, but my take, for what it’s worth, is that C3 and Hillsong will continue to grow, expand, develop and thrive beyond the present leadership, for at least one more generation, and, should the Lord tarry, beyond, albeit, with the possibility of some theological changes over time.
There is enough evidence to suggest that the crop of new leaders being developed will continue the push to plant churches, win souls and make disciples in the name of Jesus, and under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
This isn’t so much a prophecy but a pragmatic observation of the quality and calibre of young people who are prepared to take the gospel into the world as co-workers with Christ in His great commission.
It’s been an interesting week journeying with you folks. I really don’t know what to think. Is this the Church? Jesus’ Church?
See how it works? If your iq surpasses that of the biblically illiterate defenders of these cults, they default to labelling faithful Christian being a religious, judgmental deadbeat. When reason escapes them, they will result to trashing you. Good one Steve. Keep spreading the hate. You make c3 and Hillsong look questionable whenever you defend them.
@Gordy, “Is this the Church? Jesus’ Church?”
Yes it is. These are the faithful here, defending the faith here.
Rather than the faithless there, defiling the faith there.
When you defend the Hillsong cult, you’re also defending everyone they endorse (td jakes, joel osteen, ed young jr).
So keep on endorsing your apostate friends.
But the Bible says “contend for the faith”, not “contend for the cults.”
At least that’s what our Bible here says, I’m not sure what version you use.
@ gordy – you say “I know you will slap me down for this, but my take, for what it’s worth, is that C3 and Hillsong will continue to grow, expand, develop and thrive beyond the present leadership, for at least one more generation, and, should the Lord tarry, beyond, albeit, with the possibility of some theological changes over time.”
I agree, it will continue grow, because the culture it appeals to is getting more biblically illiterate with each passing year.
Those who really do “contend for the faith” will eventually pull away, accepting that having a smaller congregation will be the price to pay as part of that “break-away”.
That not providing entertainment and dumbed-down seeker-sensitive sermons has its own consequences. Accepting that preaching the Word in season and out of season doesn’t appeal to the masses.
That being “relevant” never saved anyone.
I don’t doubt for a minute that the Lord will lose any that the Father has given Him, that faithful men of God will continue to be used in ways that this present church culture will never understand. Not seeing that in their apparent “boring simplicity”, are the ways and means of grace.
Indeed, it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe.
I always think that as long as the gospel is being preached there is always hope for doctrine and methodology to fall into line with God’s will.
There are some great young church planters, pastors and leaders coming through, as you well know, Berean. It bodes well for the next generation.
God bless them all for their courage, dedication and decision to serve.
As long as they keep their focus on Jesus he will shape them by his Word and Spirit.
churchwatcher,
‘See how it works? If your iq surpasses that of the biblically illiterate defenders of these cults, they default to labelling faithful Christian being a religious, judgmental deadbeat. When reason escapes them, they will result to trashing you. Good one Steve. Keep spreading the hate. You make c3 and Hillsong look questionable whenever you defend them.’
You’ve lived a very sheltered life if you consider that hate. Goodness. Since when were strong words which identify a person’s motives hate?
Earlier, when someone said some very rude things about me and my ministry, mostly untrue, I was informed by that person that I was only being corrected in ‘love’. So one man’s strong words are ‘hate’, whilst another’s are ‘love’, and yet there is little difference in intention or delivery. It seems that it just depends on which side of the tracks commenters walk on this site. If you support you’re speaking in love, if you challenge you’re speaking in hate.
But, no, I hate no one. I’ve just been asking you for an explanation of why you claim that Hillsong is ‘grooming’ its members to embrace the gay lifestyle. That’ a harsh assessment of what has actually been said. Can you qualify what you mean by ‘grooming’? Maybe it doesn’t have sinister overtones as some have suggested.
Along the way a discussion ensued and there was some ding-dong rhetorical conversation. A little heated on both sides, perhaps, but nothing of hate was either intended or received. Were your words above ‘hate’ words? They seem harsh. Or are you claiming you said them in ‘love’?
It was a discussion. I certainly don’t consider Austin to be ‘deadbeat’. He is obviously a very smart, learned person. Quite articulate. Very dedicated to the Word of God and doctrine. I certainly don’t hate him for wanting to tell people the truth, or being unnecessarily rude at times.
I mean how can brethren say they are of God if they hate? Do you love the people at C3? Hillsong? Their leaders? Are he your enemies? Do you love or hate your enemies?
You said,
‘If your iq surpasses that of the biblically illiterate defenders of these cults, they default to labelling faithful Christian being a religious, judgmental deadbeat. ‘.
Are you saying that righteous judgment is matter of IQ? Or intelligence?
Doesn’t Paul say that we all have knowledge, and that knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. He says that if anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing as yet as he ought to know. But, Paul tells us, if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
Surely loving God and being known by God is far above any and all knowledge.
I can tell you that defending brethren in the Body is far more loving than working towards their demise. I agree we have a right and even an obligation to expose false teaching, etc, but the constant barrage doesn’t seem to be justified.
“Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Yep, I fail on the love test sometimes to. Which os why I repent often. How are you measuring up?
By the way, did you find anywhere in the gospels where Jesus told us to judge people?
Love and peace to you all!
“We should call you Austin the Hammer!”
Indeed we should, Gordy, indeed we should – you are getting absolutely smashed from pillar to post here; if this were a boxing match the ref would have stopped the fight long ago.
We haven’t seen an apologist for apostasy get such a comprehensive hiding since that relentlessly acerbic character Zorro took to you with the long handle and belted you all over the park. Indeed, I myself can’t recall having ~ever~ seen such a one-sided affair – Austin invariably comes out of his corner swinging like a threshing machine – and never missing – and in response you stagger about groggily offering up mealy-mouthed and pathetically self-serving platitudes that are flimsily buttressed by odd snippets of out-of-context Scripture. Bang! bang! bang! bang!: it’s like watching a Sam Peckinpah movie, with you being the one on the wrong of all the violence – just reading it almost makes one flinch.
This entirely one-sided contest serves as a stark illustration of the fact that the problem with the average C3 pastor is that they are well below average: they are clueless, witless, gormless, feckless, gutless individuals who don’t know one end of the Bible from the other and who wouldn’t recognise the Holy Spirit if they tripped over Him (and those are their good points).
Anyway Gordy, we can all see that you have been really badly hurt on these web sites, but I would encourage you to remain positive and look at all the good things that they are achieving – remember, there’s no such thing as a perfect web site!!! I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive yourself for having so consistently exposed both yourself and your “churches” to the critical faculties of mature and discerning disciples of Christ, and for having thus held yourself up for such a welter of well-deserved ridicule and contempt. Don’t allow negativity to get the better of you – you will only end up bitter and twisted like your idols Phil Pringle and Brian Houston. It would doubtless be best for you to move on and try to find a place where you can more comfortably fit in – perhaps one that is dedicated to navel-gazing narcissists who are in awe of their own supposed intellects and thoroughly enamoured of the sound of their own voices (although in truth you really don’t need to go any further than C3 to find just such an environment).
Fortunately, Austin,you are so overwhelmingly boorish with your put-downs that few people actually get through the entirety of your slap-stick comments. If they did they’d soon see how monotonously, breathlessly critical of people you are.
And please don’t put yourself in the class of Zorro, who was the past master of slavishly tedious crunch tackles of innocent arrivals to this site.
He said more in one pithy phrase than you have mustered in two weeks of caustically aggravating and unfounded insults on two sites, one of which you left with your tail between your legs because you got nowhere.
You see, Austin, we can all say ungracious things about one another.
I’m sorry for what I just said to you in the first three paragraphs, it was just, as churchwatcher would say, ‘shock tactics’ to point out something and get your attention.
I think you’re actually a wonderful person with huge chip on your shoulder. But the sooner you realise I’m not that chip and that endlessly insulting me is not the answer the better.
“And please don’t put yourself in the class of Zorro, who was the past master of slavishly tedious crunch tackles of innocent arrivals to this site.”
Are you talking about the Zorro that asked you basic questions that you refused to answer? Zorro still got your tongue?
Keep speaking – you are making your C3 master look wonderful. Quick reminder folks that Pringle himself endorsed Steve Rowe and his ChookWatch site.
“I found one, my daughter did, called C3 Chookwatch. It’s great, it’s for us (C3). I don’t know who he is.”
Jesus said,
“Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”
You are behaving more like Phil Pringle by the day. Please keep up your wonderful behaviour Steve Rowe. Austin is doing a fine job calling the spade a spade.
Oh gosh, cw, you don’t want to talk about Zorro, do you?
I’m still waiting for the two of you to define ‘orthodox’.
At the moment I’m still wondering if you can clarify your use of the term ‘grooming’ when you state in your headline that Hillsong is grooming its members to embrace queerstianity. What do you mean by ‘grooming’
If it means nothing in particular, surely that should tell people that you are not using it in a sinister way.
Can you answer that question, at least, cw?
I ask, cw, because the dictionary gives two definitions of the word you are using in this context,
• prepare or train (someone) for a particular purpose or activity: star pupils who are groomed for higher things.
• (of a paedophile) prepare (a child) for a meeting, especially via an Internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offence.
Eenie meenie mini mo
Give the facts to Steve Rowe
If it’s truth he lets it go
So eenie meenie mini mo
Hmm… Looks like our definition is whatever you want it to be so you can win another one of your vain arguments. You don’t want answers – you want to win any argument no matter how stupid you look once you win.
So keep winning the arguments Steve. Make Pringle proud! He doesn’t want well educated idiots in his movement. He wants people like you!
http://c3churchwatch.com/2012/08/23/idiocy-in-high-places/
Looks like Pringle accepted your resume. Keep representing C3 for us. You and Dean Sweetman do a fine job.
Well that just looks as if you’re avoiding the issue, cw.
There are only two choices and taken form a bona fide dictionary. I took it you don’t mean by ‘grooming’ the meaning of giving a neat and tidy appearance, as in combing or brushing hair, etc..
So I gave the the other two meanings as options.
So, which is it? I’m asking you. You could clear this up with one comment.
Is it…
A) • prepare or train (someone) for a particular purpose or activity: star pupils who are groomed for higher things.
Oris it:
B) • (of a paedophile) prepare (a child) for a meeting, especially via an Internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offence.
Your call…
“Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him…” Matthew 4:10,11
Indeed, it is unwise to serve anyone other than the Lord our God…
Indeed!
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3519
@ Steve – “It was a discussion. I certainly don’t consider Austin to be ‘deadbeat’. He is obviously a very smart, learned person. Quite articulate. Very dedicated to the Word of God and doctrine. I certainly don’t hate him for wanting to tell people the truth, or being unnecessarily rude at times.”
Of course, anyone who has been here on the blog for the last four to five days would have to negate all of the above tripe as wishful thinking on Steve Rowe’s part.
His agenda was clear from day one. Fortunately a familiar pattern is recorded in scripture for one and all to see:
“6 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
(Proverbs 6:16 – 19)
No matter how charming or disarming Steve Rowe seems to be, there will always be a kickback from nice to nasty and back again.
For the rest of you brethren, consider this:
I’m just wondering what would happen if someone had a wallet stolen with say, $1,000 in it so they could have a good night’s entertainment out on the town.
What would you expect the victim to do? Wouldn’t they want the thief brought to justice, and the money returned? Of course they would.
So now, here we are, as part of the church, and someone has just stolen the Lord’s valuables, (His character, His nature, His truth) and run off down the street with them (perhaps towards the next megachurch conference…?) to be misused and abused as profit making entertainment, not to mention any false doctrine in tow?
So don’t you think that we would like a little ‘justice’, in that God’s nature, character and truth be restored, and the thief (false teacher, false prophet, money ministry etc) be brought unto ‘justice’ (judgement in the light of the word of God?) I think so…
@Steve, want the truth? you cannot discern good from evil. you’re a tape recorder stuck in a loop because you focus on pebbles (1 word), but ignore boulders (dozen$$$ of false teachers). joel osteen and brian houston = wolves. they’re not of us. at all. period. zippo. all the other sheep on here recognize those are not sheep, but you. Jesus did not die on the cross for joel osteen to acquire $40m. how much has brian houston acquired? the problem is not the word grooming, the problem is you. you have discernment “issues.” 250 discernment websites have figured it out, but you can’t? why is that?
First, the name on the comment is Gordy. I don’t call you Fred, or Dick or Bertie. I’m happy to, but I respect your chosen identity.
Second, your assessment is unkind and not at all in line with your correction of me elsewhere.
Third, I disagree with your assessment that Brian Houston is a wolf. Therefore your criticism of my defence is subjective, based on your own preconception, not on any evidence.
Your obsession s with finances, but, according to you, without knowing what they have ‘acquired’, but has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.
I don’t really care what ten thousand ‘discernment’ sites think, since many of them regurgitate what others say and begin with their own flawed preconceived notions of what constitutes theological accuracy.
The only issue I have actually raised here is whether it is appropriate to say that Hillsong are ‘grooming’ members to adopt the gay lifestyle. That is not discernment. That is a request for qualification.
This entire conversation has been a circumlocutory journey away from and around giving an answer to my original question.
Finally, you do not know me, or what I ‘discern’ between good and evil because this is not the sum total of who I am, what I do or what I think. It is a blog, and a blog which is evidently hostile to my point of view.
Maybe e both need to temper our commentary style, eh, Jim.
Or maybe you just need to leave the blog?
@ Gordy – I’m curious as to why you recommended “Q” watch a clip from T.D.Jakes over on your blog?
You said “Look, here’s a gift. A message from T D Jakes. I know the doubters hate what he says, but this is a refreshing to you. I’ll probably cop a whole lot of flack for putting it up, but the Word is like a mountain shower in a waterfall on a hot day – refreshing and alive. We need a mind make-over.”
http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2012/01/26/elephant-room-2-may-we-now-regard-t-d-jakes-as-trinitarian-and-orthodox/
Why not ask over there? I’m sure you’re perfectly welcome. Do you feel that by dragging the discussion here there will be a fairer mrs balanced response? Hmmm!
Totally predictable response already, here, though, isn’t it? T D Jakes is the enemy of faith, and it’s all about the money. In fact, in the message Jakes points out that money changes nothing. If you’re mean with nothing you’ll be mean with money. It’s the character which must change not the amount you’re entrusted with.
The message given by T D Jakes is actually very good for people struggling with relationships, and involves having their minds renewed to the will of God rather than the will of man.
What I like about Q is that he is without guile and will measure something without fear, compromise or favour. He is the true litmus test of discernment sites. He is without prejudice and will assess something on merit rather than tribally. He is the bravest of us all.
What you have done is appeal to your own predetermined bias that T D Jakes is a Oneness Pentecostal and therefore not to be heard. You have, as you do, used it as a pretext to preach your on perspective using something from the other site rather than conversing about it there.
He has said he is not anti-Trinitarian, yet critics maintain he is because of their previous criticism. Instead of putting up the video for people to predetermine for themselves you put up a debating point for the locals to ‘trash’ his ministry regardless, as churchwatcher would say.
But, anyway, check it out of yourself.
@ Gordy – you say “What I like about Q is that he is without guile and will measure something without fear, compromise or favour.”
I think what you like about Q is his current attitude of favour toward you.
This comes after a few years of doing unpleasant word play with Bones, Greg etc on SP02.
Wiser men than you have had the opportunity to determine whether T.D.Jakes is orthodox, Gordy. And you neglect to demonstrate his full-blown heretical WOF prosperity doctrine…..
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2012/02/07/putting-a-face-on-destruction/
“Putting a Face on Destruction”
“In all of our discussions, we might forget that the theology we’re debating has a human face. On the other end of our words, our blogs, and our preaching are people. Listening people.”
(@ Gordy – Now here’s something for you to consider where Q is concerned, pointing him to a WOF heretic)
“People who believe and trust us. People who–tremble at this–take our teaching seriously and act on it.”
(@ Gordy – You may be causing a brother to stumble Gordy if he continues with T.D. Jakes)
“There may be only a few people in our homes that listen to us, or there may be several dozen in our churches, or there may be an untold number across the globe tuning in through some electronic media. But make no mistake about it, if a tree falls in the woods it does make a sound even if you don’t immediately see anyone around to hear it. They’re there and they’re listening.”
“A couple of days ago my wife posed a question to me. Standing over the kitchen counter she asked, “Do you think anyone has really illustrated what the problem is with Jakes’ teaching?” She explained that she was quite aware of the many theological discussions at work. But she was looking for someone to actually illustrate the problems stemming from the teaching of Jakes and others like him. I pondered that for a moment and realized she was correct. We didn’t have a picture of Jakes’ effect on real lives. That’s why I call her “Kristie the Wise.”
“So, perhaps it would be wise for us to stop for a moment to remember the very real people who sit under the false teaching of people like T.D. Jakes. We need to put a face on the destruction caused by heterodoxy (“prosperity gospel”) and heresy (modalism). To that end, I want to share with you an email I received from a brother after ER2. He wrote with a concern very similar to my wife’s. He wanted to share his story as an illustration. I offered to share it anonymously, but he wanted to leave his name in it–Sean. In his words, he wanted to “put a face to it.”
___________________________________________________________________
Here’s Sean’s brief account:
“I am, to be really honest here, very upset by the passé attitudes [towards Jakes] of these brothers (and pastors, I might add). I’m upset for a few reasons, but If I’m being honest, the main reason why I’m so disturbed by this is because the prosperity gospel nearly killed me. Literally. I was so sick I was on the verge of death. I was lying in a hot bath with a temperature of 96 degrees, way beyond dehydrated, and literally dying with mercury poisoning. My mother was crying over my naked body, begging me to go to the hospital for treatment. “NO!” I insisted. How could I put faith in a doctor? “God is my ultimate healer! In him alone will I place my faith!”
“I did eventually receive treatment, but I was still being ravished by this heresy. When I married my beautiful wife, Amber, I taught her (with the Bible of course), that there would be no taking of medicine in MY HOUSE! We would be faithful. When we were dead broke I refused to get a job because “God had promised me (through Canton Jones, no less) that I would be a business CEO, fortune 500, of course. How could I not have faith in that word of prophesy?”
“And there were a hundred other things that nearly destroyed my life and marriage. Would you care to guess who my MAIN teacher was? Who I followed as if he himself were Jesus? Who I tithed to regularly? Who’s books I read faithfully? Who’s sermons I purchased? Who’s dress I imitated?”
“Yes, you guessed it. TD Jakes.”
“My brother, this man is not merely confused, he is a wolf. God’s gracious staff saved me from him. But don’t get it twisted. Under my fur I still bear many scars that he gave to me with his powerful bite.”
__________________________________________________________________
“Sean is a 20-something, tattooed, urban type. He has a beautiful young family and wants to now devote his life to the mission field. He’s sitting under sound teaching of God’s word, building community with others, and looking to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he had to first escape Jakes and the prosperity movement before he could really come to build his life on and give his life to the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ.”
“Now, not everyone has had the same experience as Sean and Amber. And not everything in Sean’s experience can be attributed to the preacher. But we can’t deny the connection between belief and behavior. If the belief is faulty chances are the behavior will be faulty also. Picture Sean. Picture many more like Sean, falling into life-changing and sometimes life-threatening behaviors because they’ve believed a life-stealing teaching. Now picture that teaching coming to an evangelical church near you. Perhaps your own. That’s the face we need to put on this destructive teaching.”
“Jakes’ false teaching has long been experienced in predominantly African-American and Hispanic-American communities. His reach extends throughout the Caribbean and sub-Saharan Africa. Recent events have given T.D. Jakes greater credibility in and access to communities that to this point were largely unaware of him. In my opinion, that can’t be a good thing.”
Berean, that is not correct, nor is it fair on Q or myself.
Q has often berated me and questioned me for my point of view, delivery and theology, yet without any sense of antagonism or preconceived bias. He has also stood with me when there have been untoward criticism of my stance in standing for my brethren. That is why I value his opinion.
I agree that there are many men wiser that I, and that is a default position you have taken in the past as a dismissal of something I might say or believe, but that doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion, or make a comment, or make an assessment of what is right or wrong. I am not totally unwise either, despite the connotations in your comment.
The message I put up, which has now given you a vehicle to once again put down T D Jake’s ministry without even watching the message in question, is very helpful to couples going through struggles in their relationships. That is why i recommended it, as well as the content, which reminds us to put off the old man and put on the new which is fashioned after Christ. If we all remembered tis we would actually have fewer disputes and get on better with one another to build God’s kingdom with Christ.
Your response is very predictable, unfortunately, and was exactly why I said I would receive flack here for even putting it up. But it wasn’t for your benefit, even though it would benefit anyone who watched it. It was a gift to Q, which he is appreciating.
On you Jim, thanks for coming back and bringing that big stick with you. It really is the blindness of the Pharisees that those kindsof people suffer from – as my mother used to say – ” there are none so blind as those who WILL not see” 🙂
Berean – TD Jakes, for those who don’t know is now called a “Bishop” within the Potter’s House group based in Texas, USA – you can view a bio of him here:
http://carm.org/td-jakes
His church origins were formely with the Oneness/Jesus Only Pentecostalist group of churches in America – here is a detailed summary of current Oneness beliefs and practices:
http://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal
I have had dealings with both groups here in Australia throughout my many years of travelling, and I would have to say that both groups seem to be overindulgent in “pastor worship” as both groups subscribe to a one man authoritarian regime. From that authoritarian style regime, some very bad doctrines and practices do flow…
The Potter’s House groups here in Oz have seen a lot of people in leadership leave the movement in recent years, some taking their churches with them, as the scales have come off their eyes, and they have come to know the real Jesus Christ of the scriptures, not the false demanding and unloving ‘Jesus’ that their cult leaders had taught them to believe in.
There are many websites out there with credible information and testimonies as to a long list of issues with both groups. Some people feel that the word ‘cult’ is too harsh for Christians to use in order to describe another believer or group.
But if that person or group names the nameof the Lord and departs from orthodox belief and practice, or worse still, compounds the situation by embracing other heresies (eg: LRM, NAR, UPC/Oneness, Shepherding etc) then the orthodox church is well within its rights to declare such groups as cults,or at least sects.
Sectarian groups tend to hold to most of the basic orthodox teachings of the Church, but may tend to camp around one or two beliefs, which may be quasi orthodox (heterodox) where there is some mixture of truth and error, or at best a set of half truths, but nothing damning enough to call them heretical.
FYI.
T D Jakes’ Potters House has nothing whatsoever to do with the Potters House Christian Fellowship in Australia. They are completely different movements.
T D Jake’s Potters House has four locations in Dallas Texas. I am not aware of any churches in Australia.
Potters House Christian Fellowship was started by Wayman Mitchell in Prescott, Arizona in the ’70s, and is a fundamentalist Pentecostal movement.
The Potters House Christian Fellowship would fundamentally agree with just about everything this blog and c3cw have to say, including about T D Jakes.
Cue a firestorm of criticism of T D Jakes and all associated ministries. Light the touch paper and let the circumnavigation begin.
FYI
Both Potter’s House and UPC have been tagged as cults, both over there and over here. Whether TD Jakes is part of Wayman Mitchell’s brand or has “rolled his own” brand is of little consequence.
He has a background in Oneness Pentecostalism which is heretical in relation to the doctrine of the Trinity, and is mixing with all the wrong company. That is more than enough for me to stay well away from him and anything that he teaches. And if you think that what he teaches is OK, just follow the link:
http://shepherdguardian.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/heresy-alert-false-teacher-t-d-jakes-attacks-false-preachers-of-la-or-the-story-of-the-splinter-and-the-plank/
And now he is calling himself a “Bishop” while meandering down the road to another church – change your doctrine, change your brand? Is that the game here Steve?
Have you changed your brand lately Steve, or have you given up Hillsmoke altogether?
Once again Steve, you have “strained out the nat”, but failed to swallow the camel’s humps of truth either side of it.
Spoken like a true Pharisee.
Austin,
Whether TD Jakes is part of Wayman Mitchell’s brand or has “rolled his own” brand is of little consequence.
Of course it is of consequence. You have lumped them together when they are not connected at all. In fact they are at opposite ends of the theological spectrum, and, as I said Potters House Christian Fellowship would agree with just about everything you and this site are saying. Everything.
The least you could is acknowledge this. I gave the information so that no on is confused about it, as you seemed to be.
@Austin, and TD Jakes’ potter’s house isn’t the only one who calls jakes a “Bishop.” Southern boy Steven Furtick also lavishes the “Bishop” title on jakes. Whenever furtick bows down to worship jakes. Because furtick claims jakes is “the BEST pastor who ever lived.” Wow! What an endorsement that is!
What fun this bad boy of the Bible Belt is…. Here’s what rockstar Steven Furtick looks like at his own Elevation Church, whenever he has time to step away from his own $1.7m mansion (he calls “modest”) in Charlotte North Carolina (where the median home price is $175,000):
or if you cant view it try: YOUTUBE + “/” + watch?v=hEYgLhGGdF8
Come on…. Preach it, Steve!
Jim Styles
Jim, thanks for the link and video clip – I shall watch it with great interest.
I just find it strange that when a ‘pastor’ from a heretical cult moves on down the road and takes over another church (this happened in 1996,) and then calls himself a ‘bishop’, but nobody asks any relevant questions as to his motives or his teaching.
Jakes seems hell bent on maintaining links with the most questionable characters in 21st century Christendom (Furtic et al) but Steve/Gordy just can’t wait to broadcast them and their ungodly performances.
It’s almost like, if we watch enough videos, then the “anointing” will start to flow all over us (and our wallets and purses too, no doubt) until we get the ‘revelation’ that Steve and his heretical gaggle of geese are right, and we are all wrong.
I can assure you Mr Rowe, that you will run out of video clips long before we run out of scriptures that more than adequately describe the false doctrines and fleshly displays which go to make up the woefull content in such recordings.
John the apostle warned us of such people a long time ago:
“.They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”
(1 John 4:5, 6)
It is the apostle’s doctrine that sets us apart from all false ‘churches’ and when we hear that doctrine it will perform a work of seperation from that which is carnal and earthly. “Love not the world, neither the thingsof the world…” (1John 2:15)
“they are of the world and the world heareth them…”
The world will only hear these gnostic heretics as they speak the same language – use the same new age, antichrist, philosophical jargon that describes the world as they see it. None of that understanding will be Bible based, because the do not hear us, (the apsotles doctrine, as taught by Christ).
That’s why we can’t get through to some of these people, as their thinking and belief system is closer to that of the pagan world view than it is to a Christian worldview.
@ Austin, you’re welcome for the video…. an original Babylon Studios production,
Jim Styles
@ Steve/Gordy above – (no offence meant to you Q)
“What I like about Q is that he is without guile and will measure something without fear, compromise or favour. He is the true litmus test of discernment sites. He is without prejudice and will assess something on merit rather than tribally. He is the bravest of us all.”
Well, that is an interesting little butter up now, isn’t it Steve? Or maybe it’s just that Q spends a lot more time on your woefull blogsite than any of us? Perhaps Q is more fair minded than some, but I have no experience with him so will not pass “righteous judgement” on him at this time… much to your disappointment, no doubt.
As for you Steve, I find it despicable that you would drag poor old Q over here and use him to do your dirty work with. To ‘borrow’ his good nature and character in order to batter us with your distorted version of events, and all the while you have acted with the most blatant hypocrisy and have been far less than honest with the truth.
Placing Q or anyone else for that matter, in the middle of the schemozzle that you created with your trouble making antics this past week is shameful, and in no way displays Christian love or the fruit of the Spirit.
Wolves wear the sheep’s clothing for very good reasons folks – to disguise themselves when amongst the flock, to the point where even the most experienced of hirelings don’t recognize them for what they really are either. (Matt 7:13+)
But those of us who have been walking with the Lord for any length of time can tell the difference, and we are not fooled by this interloper called Steve for one minute.
For the local wolf to use an innocent sheep in order to trap the other sheep in their speech is both disgraceful and uncalled for, to say the least.
Q. I’m not sure of your history with the CW and HS watcher blogsites, but for what it’s worth, I believe that Churchwatcher would welcome your fairminded comments and insights, as do I. But let’s leave Steve out of the equation when it comes time for introductions, shall we?
Remember the words of the apostle Paul:
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ”. (Ephesians 4:14, 15)
Ministry giftings such as that of a pastor, are set by Christ in His body, the Church, to bring the believers to maturity, so that they can then go forward and do the work of the ministry. Their role is a serious one, and it is not meant to be taken lightly.
After watching Steve’s antics for virtually the last 2 weeks, I’d have to ask myself how anyone could have ever been so blind as to give this man that title – ever.
Austin,
I find it despicable that you would drag poor old Q over here and use him to do your dirty work with.
What the dickens are you talking about, Austin? Berean asked about Q. She brought him unto the thread, not me. I just responded.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3528
Hopefully, Berean will have the integrity to back this up.
The rest of what you have been saying for the last several comments are simply unchristian and abusive and I am letting it go through to the keeper.
Yes that’s true – I certainly asked the question about Q. Out of curiosity and concern.
Thanks Berean.
Unfortunately Berean I didn’t see your post as I was too busy countering Steve’s usual barrage of half truth, self promotion and error…
Gordy,
1: “Third, I disagree with your assessment that Brian Houston is a wolf. Therefore your criticism of my defence is subjective, based on your own preconception, not on any evidence.”
JS: Preconception? No evidence Brian = Wolf ? Just for starters, Brian’s little Hillsong Conference has consistently invited/promoted false teachers & heretics, such as: Kong Hee, Joyce Meyer, Steven Furtick, Ron Luce, Bill Hybels, TD Jakes, and many more. I’m going to leave it at that.
2: “Your obsession s with finances, but, according to you, without knowing what they have ‘acquired’”
JS: I have no problem calling public church figures accountable to the standard they deserve anytime anywhere. They are stewards of church wealth. I know Brian Houston hasn’t flashed wealth like Joel Osteen, and I can’t find Brian’s net worth (which is why I said that), but I’ve read about the properties. etc. And his “supposedly” reasonable salary, does not include the perks like speaking stipends and expense accounts. Put it this way…. none of these people are exactly suffering for the Gospel.
3: [jim’s talk about money…] “has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.”
JS: You can’t divorce one aspect of these characters/ministries from another. Ex: Kong Hee said publicly that “Jesus was rich.” This is typical of the foolishness that comes out of Prosperity Movement. We saw where his story went.
Thus, my comments on wealth have as much to do with this thread, as your comment — “The message given by T D Jakes is actually very good for people struggling with relationships, and involves having their minds renewed to the will of God rather than the will of man.” Thanks for the plug, but what does THAT have to do with the title of this thread either? Absolutely nothing. Plus, its bad advice to even suggest TD Jakes for anything, as Berean has shown you.
4: On “grooming” again
JS: I’ll let churchwatcher answer if he feels like it. But once Gordy gets hung up on one thing, he misses the rest (the big bad picture).
5: “I don’t really care what ten thousand ‘discernment’ sites think since many of them regurgitate what others say”
JS: We know you don’t care. But they are the watchmen demanding answers, accountability, and truth. (As opposed to the people in these churches who blindly go along). Also, I don’t know what all sites you’re looking at, but all the sites I read, do at least some if not most of their own research.
6: “Finally, you do not know me, or what I ‘discern’ between good and evil because this is not the sum total of who I am, what I do or what I think.”
All of us have been reading what you’ve said for the past week, looked at your website, etc, so I think we have a pretty good idea….
Jim Styles
Thanks, Jim, for having the courtesy to address me correctly. I respect that. And for answering earnestly. I do not fully agree with some of your points because, as I said they are subjective.
You cannot make Hillsong into a cult simply because they have ministries you do not credit theologically. There are too many in your list to cover in one comment, of course, but some of the things said about them are unrealistic, whilst others have an element of truth but are generally peripheral. Are they promoting Christ? I think so. Someone will now say, “Which Christ?” Lord help us! There’s too much to do in this time with reaching the lost to be distracted by point-scoring theological debates.
I don’t know these men’s salaries or income either, so I cannot comment. I have views on this and I think it is unwise to be a leader with more than the average person can cope with emotionally, but have no objection to people having wise investments. I have warned people against some of the excesses of certain ministries and broken fellowship with some of them because they have clearly handled finances unwisely. But I think, whilst we have to continue to teach against the deceitfulness of riches, and the traps which can ensue when pursuing wealth, we have to leave the judgment of these things to God. Better to be poor and in love with God than rich without Him.
There are may ways in which we suffer. Physically, emotionally, fiscally, through persecution, hardship, and not always financially. Being poor is not a key to holiness any more than being rich. As Paul said, we need to learn to be content whether we are abased or abound. I have been in both places and in between, although never rich. But, having said that, even that point is mute and subjective, because, compared to the real poor living in shanty towns on the beaches of places like the Philippines, almost every Australian is incredibly rich.
It is just as possible to suffer spiritually or emotionally from having too much as it is to suffer in poverty. The problem with comfort is that it interferes with our dependence on God. In fact, in poverty my family has seen great joy, because God supplies even in the worse of times. On the other hand having more means having the capacity for giving more to those in need. But I would never convict a person for being blessed with abundance, provided it was used for the glory of God. We do not know what these people have placed in the storehouse. Only God can judge these things.
My response to Berean was on request and by way of clarification.
The only thing I would take exception to in your reply was the way you seemed to pronounce ‘We know you don’t care.’ Was that meant the way it seems, because, in response, I have to tell you that I do care in general terms for people and have dedicated my life to reaching them for the gospel and for Christ. I probably care more than you think.
I care, in the terms of this blog, that people are being misrepresented, and, worse, being misrepresented on purpose, with the aim of defaming and discrediting them utterly.
I do not care that a number of so-called ‘discernment’ blogs peddle the same error. That was the context in which I stated I do not care. The prime example on here was the way in which people recycled the T D Jakes ‘discernment’ propaganda! Hilarious, or it would be if it wasn’t so lazy and unqualified.
The classic is the claim that E W Kenyon was into metaphysics based on McConnell’s misrepresentation which most ‘discernment’ sites take as gospel without either doing their own proper research, or reading material which clearly and concisely refutes McConnell’s book, which was based on his college thesis and has since been better scrutinised even by people who oppose Word of Faith ministries. So why should we take notice of recycled error? I’d rather read my Bible for an hour.
And, no, you do not know me. You only think you do.
I would never presume to know you, or Berean, or Austin, or anyone else on this blog based on what they write or how they comment. That would be both folly and unjust.
You do not know how many times I’ve read something by any of you which is so far from the truth that I have to shake my head in disbelief. I rarely say anything because it is far more useful to allow you to pain a false picture of who your addressing than to spend endless hours correcting your preconceived ideas.
In which case I feel I must be in the same boat as you in this regard.
You have incorrectly assessed even what I have said here several times, so I don’t know how you could possibly consider yourself to know me. LOL!
But thanks for being civil. I have nothing against you or anyone. I’m just commenting, that’s all, as a brother in Christ with differing views.
@ Steve/Gordy
“You cannot make Hillsong into a cult simply because they have ministries you do not credit theologically. There are too many in your list to cover in one comment, of course, but some of the things said about them are unrealistic, whilst others have an element of truth but are generally peripheral.”
If it walks like a cult and then talks like a cult, then maybe it is a cult?
Honestly Steve, you are really displaying your ignorance now… there is nothing ‘peripheral’ about Hillsong selling Jesus Christ for money, or controlling its membership with fearful stories about what happens to those who fail to tithe, or promoting some of the worst heretics in church history (the list is too long to name)
– nothing at all.
“The classic is the claim that E W Kenyon was into metaphysics based on McConnell’s misrepresentation which most ‘discernment’ sites take as gospel without either doing their own proper research, or reading material which clearly and concisely refutes McConnell’s book, which was based on his college thesis and has since been better scrutinised even by people who oppose Word of Faith ministries. So why should we take notice of recycled error? I’d rather read my Bible for an hour.”
Perhaps you could cite those “reading materials which clearly and concisely refutes McConnel’s work”? Even Ruth Kenyon-Houseworth recognises her father’s original work coming from the lips of faith teachers the world over:
http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2010/10/14/hagin_copied_kenyon/
It seems to me Steve, that the entire Hyper Faith movement is simply parroting the contents of Kenyon’s ‘stolen goods’ which doesn’t surprise me at all.
Who would, in their right mind, believe a false doctrine, stolen from the mind-science cults, when they could believe the simplicity of the Gospel. Only those who are looking for error and not Bible truth will doggedly hold to such patenly false teaching.
Do you like your regular dose of spoon fed mind numming nonsense from Copeland et al, and can you justify their multi million dollar empire as being from God, as His blessing, based on their telling of Bible “truth”?
Here’s an interesting little blog, hosted by Rich Vermillion, who was an employee of KCM for years, and a personal friend of the Copelands – study this one folks, and see just what the real fruits of Hyper faith false doctrine will produce in God’s little garden of the church:
http://kennethcopelandblog.com/
Austin,
‘maybe it’s just that Q spends a lot more time on your woefull blogsite than any of us”
Q has only ever made three comments on that blog and for the first time last week.
You have made more comments there than anyone previously or since. Austin, you are the most regular commenter at c3churchwatchwatch, where there have only been four posts since February 2013. Congratulations.
Austin,
“I have no experience with him [Q] so will not pass “righteous judgement” on him at this time”
That’s a good move, because I can tell you that Q doesn’t suffer fools. LOL!
“You have made more comments there than anyone previously or since.”
Actually Steve – that’s not true.
You are our greatest fan. You’ve made more comments than Zorro, Berean and Austin combined.
We were talking about c3churchwatchwatch, cw. Do keep up.
@ Austin – I’ve had a reasonably long commenting history with Q over at SP02 blog (now almost defunct since it was taken over by a very liberal/emergent guy).
That particular blog (originally just called Signposts) started at least 8-10? years ago by a husband and wife very concerned about church matters particularly Hillsong.
Since then it’s had many administrators and has finally run its course it seems, dragging a few nice people through the mud on its downslide to defunctness.
Gordy/Steve commented regularly there too – strangely at times he and I were
often on the same side of a theological argument against the rising tide of emergents/liberals “taking up all the air in the room”.
Q was, and is a nice guy who got caught up arguing with one unpleasant person, (who perhaps may have had some underlying personal problems lately), so he left.
I left there at least 18 months ago, because it was as nasty as a blog could get, swearing, crudity etc.
The Gordy we also saw there was as adversarial as he is here, he seems to take pleasure in misrepresenting the original topics discussed, especially if you disagreed even reasonably.
I think he sees himself as a skilled polemicist, and since the “emergent/liberals” took up all the air over at SP02, he now has the opportunity to practice that tactic here……
And I say that as a respectful observation – that’s how you seem to interact with people you disagree with, Gordy.
Berean, I don’t think that’s entirely accurate, but you are pretty feisty yourself and not afraid of being confrontational if you want to go down that track. The author o the is site was pretty strong and abrasive at times too. Could you please also remind people that I was not the one engaging in profanities, and neither were you. But you gave as good as you got, which was not always from me, and, as you say, we were often a tag-team.
That was the nature of that blog anyway. The heaviest blog I ever went on was Larvatus Prodeo, which is an ultra-left political blog, where I argued for faith in amongst very bright atheists, small ‘c’ catholics and evolutionists who were not averse to the odd bit of profanity, on topics such as abortion, homosexual rights, evolution and their constant attack on the church. That was tough environment.
My motive is actually to engage with people with a different perspective, not as a polemicist. Sometimes there is a disagreement, but this is the essence of dialogue.
But this site isn’t much less hostile to my point of view to either of the above, even though it purports to be Christian, so why single me out as a protagonist when others are at least as confrontational? If I’m nice I’m called smarmy, if I’m firm I’m called nasty. What does that make everyone else, then? All nice?
And are you going to confirm with Austin that you were the person who introduced Q into the conversation, or not?
I did, at least 20 mins ago – https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3553
It doesn’t really matter Steve, just who introduced who, at the end of the day you were only too happy to take advantage of using poor old Q once he “got” here.
I still think that Andy had you pegged right 2 days ago – you just like to hear the sound of your own voice…
Yes, thanks again. I guess we’re both doing other things besides occasional blogging! LOL!
Peace to you, Berean. And don’t be too worried about Q. He’s really quite a mature Christian, and not at all in ‘danger’ from me or Jakesy! LOL!
That last comment was to Berean.
Austin, you really need to acknowledge when you make a mistake and not try to justify your wrong assumptions. That’s twice in a few comments now. It’s OK to be wrong sometimes.
@ Gordy – please don’t assume I haven’t seen the T.D.Jakes clips,.
You said above “The message given by T D Jakes is actually very good for people struggling with relationships, and involves having their minds renewed to the will of God rather than the will of man.”
You may be be guilty of syncretism here, blending ideas from Jakes to help people overcome difficulties and subtly promoting his religious affiliations as well. There is some truth that can be found amongst the rankest error, and truth mixed with error can be far more destructive can’t it?
You mean like promoting cessationism?
I’m not going down that road Gordy. I’m watching “The Perfect Storm” right now and I’m certainly not going to lost in another one. 🙂
@ gordy- I wonder if you realize that at least half the people commenting favourably here at times are charismatic/Pentecostal non-cessationists?
Yes, I do. And mostly nice and pleasant to talk to as well. There are only a couple of commenters who are really sharp with people like me, but they seem to be very vocal and opinionated. It’s not a good look from the outside. Thanks for allowing a mutually courteous conversation. Enjoy the movie.
How about promoting Christ, Steve? How about rightly dividing the word of God and not just using it to support your unsubstaintiated claims?
You haven’t once, in the last 5 days, provided one link to a credible or reliable source that would give support to your claims that Hillsong, C3 et al are in the will of God. Not one – and I don’t count the TD Jakes video as anything credible.
Do you really just expect us to sit behind our computer screens and cop all of this rubbish that you dish up in the name of God without any recourse for redress or reply?
You just keep on adding one furphy after another in the hope of confusing us and the sheep that come here, but it won’t work – as you can see from yesterday’s battle royal, they know what you’re all about –
You like to play silly little mind games, spread half truths, “casting bad seed amongst the brethren” in order to divide people and to try and cause disagreements between them.
You can’t sleep at night unless you’ve caused some trouble or other in the Kingdom of God.
Those are the tactics of a wolf – divide the sheep and the devour them.
Get real, Austin. You have been the main protagonist in the diversionary tactics.
I asked for a qualification of the claim that Hillsong is ‘grooming’ members to adopt the gay lifestyle.
You, meanwhile haven’t ceased to hit out with your rubber hammer of self-righteous judgment.
You, dear friend, are the one taking us around in circles away from the original request.
No one, not you, nor Jim, nor churchwatcher, nor even the recently congenial Berean, has responded to the request for clarification of what churchwatcher means by ‘grooming’.
Simple request. Long way around not answering it.
@ Gordy/Steve
And neither have you provided any proof for your cause – that Hillsong and C3 are “wonderful works of God” according to a statement on your own blog.
I think that you have serious problems interpreting reality and you may need to see a counselor
Berean – let me just say this – I am a Classical Pentecostal and I can’t stomach what these antichrist churches have become. I remember the solid word based people of 30 years ago who were the bulwark of the movement back then. I learnt from them.
Men and women of God who had laid down their lives for the sheep and held to sound doctrine. Christ was the centre of their lives, not unbiblical experiences – not money – not large buildings – and not the praises of men.
I am also aware that there are people of reformed persuasion here and although I don’t see eye to eye on every tenet of what they belive, I think that, if nothing else, this week has proved that regardless of our backgrounds or what we agree to disagree on, the fundamentals of the faith are clear beyond a reasonable doubt and they are well and truly intact. No tampering by Steve/Gordy/Fathlift, will turn the differences that may be between us into another ungodly battleground.
And I am more convinced than ever, after tonights little jig danced well by him, that this was his intention all along – to try and cause division here on the blog – nothing would have delighted his large egomore than to succed at that task.
I leave you with this scripture:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16:17, 18)
I believe that this is a more than adequate description of this man…
Austin,
‘And I am more convinced than ever, after tonights little jig danced well by him, that this was his intention all along – to try and cause division here on the blog – nothing would have delighted his large egomore than to succed at that task.’
Come now, Austin. You short-change this group with your assessment. Far from causing division, I have confirmed unity of purpose amongst those who regularly comment here.
I think almost all have sided with you and your righteous judgements. I have seen much back-slapping, affirmation and ‘Hear, hear!” You are truly in your element. A champion of the present cause on this site. And how you have expressed this, at length and without breath.
The only one who agreed with anything I have said was Annette when I added scripture in which Jesus taught us not to judge anyone. There was much unity that I was wrong and Jesus must have meant something else when he said, because there was a hug discussion on this which confirmed all you said. Even I confirmed what you said at one point. Agreement.
And Berean confirmed that she had started the discussion with Q, which you misrepresented. Sadly you chose to excuse yourself rather than acknowledge your error. Never mind. No big deal.
I have never gone anywhere to deliberately cause division. Usually something less sinister like asking for qualification of a claim, or defending what I see as a false notion, which is not at all divisive unless those who respond decide to make it into an argument. You see, it takes two to cause division, and one to end it.
I actually came to ask for clarification of the claim that Hillsong ‘grooms’ its members to embrace gay lifestyle.
I wonder why, though, it is necessary for people to concentrate so heavily on what divides rather than on what unites.
Now that would be an interesting conversation.
No Steve, you came to cause division allright – everyone can see that, but not you? And of course, it hasn’t worked.
Of course, you are the self righteous ‘corrector’ of the HS and CW watcher blogsites, and we must all bow to your verbal diahorrea and you deepest level of discernment – which promotes TD Jakes as a valid ministry (regardless of which ‘brand’ he’s smoking nowdays)…
And then there’s the fact that you very conveniently avoided the evidence provided by The Narrowing Path in her response:
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3441
Proverbs 6:16+ adequately describes you, as does Romans 16:17 and 18.
Despite your unglodly waffle and divisive antics, along with your self justifying rhetoric, no one has been fooled by you, and no one has begun to fight with their brethren over your ‘smarmy’ and otherwise ‘nasty’ tactics.
Your mission to divide the brethren at the watcher blogsites has failed.
What’s to divide? You all seem comfortable with your position. What’s to correct? You’re discernment folk who correct the Body.
I’m still waiting for cw’s response to my request for a qualification of ‘grooming’.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3589
@ Austin, you are correct. Gordy really should seek a very experienced counselor.
Matt 23:24 applies to Gordy and his abominable website:
——-> “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
A modern day pharisee. Unbelievable.
Thanks Aziaih for confirming that for me – “in the mouths of tw or three witnesses, let every word be established” (2 Corinthians 13:1)
And if you folks have forgotten just where that ‘abominable’ blogsite is:
http://c3churchwatchwatch.wordpress.com/
there it is – that’s where Gordy/Steve/whatever, hides when he’s not harranguing you with his gross verbiage…
“Discerning the discerners” Rubbish!
Don’t be silly, Austin. If there’s one thing I don’t do, it’s hide.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3587
@ gordy – @thenarrowingpath did address the grooming argument above…
“The parallels between Hillsong and what happened a few years ago in the emergent church movement (thanks to people such as Rob Bell and Tony Jones) are unmistakable. It was a slow ‘grooming’ process in that movement as well, with ambiguous statements and half truths until we end up with statements such as the following (and I could have quoted many, many more emergents speaking in a similar vein):
“The more I follow grace, the more I’m drawn to him (God), the more I’m willing to stand up for people being persecuted,”…“It sounds so churchy, but I felt like God spoke to my heart and said ‘(homosexuality) is not a sin.’ ” Jay Bakker”
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3441
Grooming? We’ve probably all heard of the “boiling frog” to illustrate the idea that change needs to be gradual to be accepted.
Brian Houston may be reconsidering his stance, who knows his heart? I really hope not but I won’t be surprised if he does. There’s a whole new generation growing up that knows no culture other than one that accepts homosexuality and its practices as normal and as their right.
And we live in a Christian society with mega-church communities that have pragmatically used worldly techniques to draw the crowd.
We also live in a society that’s grooming our children through those same worldly techniques media etc to shape their hearts and minds.
So as I said, I won’t be surprised – the shock of other pastors/churches already accepting this change is behind me now.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc “after this, therefore because of this” ???
We will have to wait and see, as we pray…..
Thanks, Berean. At least someone has made an attempt. I think Jim said something about it earlier, that churchwatcher would have to answer as he added the headline in the post and only he knows what he meant.
Others have wondered the same…
Annette: Grooming? That’s a pretty harsh statement!
Dave: I agree. There is nothing in this post that supports that accusation from Hillsong. It is all mere speculation at this point.
newtaste: Annette, I also think that the use of the term grooming is very harsh.
[from part 1]
I would accept Narrowing Path’s response if churchwatcher agrees, or your frog in the kettle answer, even if I thought they were overstating what Brian is actually doing, because at least it would remove the possibility of the answer being related to grooming in the negative sense.
I can’t understand churchwatcher’s reticence to confirm this, though. Could have saved Austin heaps of wasted time trying to say bad things about me. LOL!
“Dave: I agree. There is nothing in this post that supports that accusation from Hillsong. It is all mere speculation at this point.”
Except for one small problem Steve – the guy you are quoting as “Dave” uses language that is identical to your own in every response you have made thus far…
Annette replied further on and definitely changed her mind after reading Ben Gresham’s article – that comment was deleted, I asked the administrator why and it was inadvertently deleted. Perhaps it should be put back up CW?
Nevertheless, it is what it is.
So it remains to be seen if churchwatcher confirms Narrow Path’s assessment.
What do you think it is that is holding him back?
Actually, I don’t think I’m really interested in waiting any longer. The long silence is enough. Seems like a whole heap of defence around the author of the headline when he could have sorted it out ages ago when it was first brought up.
Case closed.
@ Steve
“What’s to divide? You all seem comfortable with your position. What’s to correct? You’re discernment folk who correct the Body.”
If that’s the case, then what other purpose can you possibly have for being here? Jesus said it Himself:
“He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.”
(Luke 11:23)
And please don’t try and justify all of your heretical, unbiblical rants with the definition that you are somehow or other “gathering” with God and His people – you are not!
“’I’m still waiting for cw’s response to my request for a qualification of ‘grooming’.”
Well if you haven’t got your answer by now, I’d say that to keep on making such a request would seem to be flogging a dead horse… let’s just bury the horse now, shall we?
You have on this blog:
1. insulted our intelligence with your “projection” of your own felt needs and character faults onto others
2. continually promoted false prophets and their warped and twisted view scripture, alongside your own,
3. denied the basic fundamentals of the faith whilst concealing your own false teaching behind a whole A4 ream of out of context comments and scripture
4 attempted to divide the sheep by wedging tactics normally only found in politics
5 ignored wise counsel to seek a counsellor
I think that we’re about done with you for now Steve Rowe – there’s nothing much more that could be said… but I’m sure that you’ll find some sarcastic comments to go out on, even if they are well camouflaged behind your self justifying babble.
I am more than satisfied that your are of the same ilk as Houston and Pringle – another false prophet in the making. (No, you’re not quite there yet, but your are learning now, aren’t you? Just a few more conferences, and you should be there…)
I don’t hate you Steve, but I do pity you – the blindness of having been lead by blind guides and Pharisees for so long and without relief, has surely rubbed off onto you.
Here’s another link from Rich Vermillion’s blogsite – who knows, it may do you some good one day:
http://richvermillion.com/2011/04/03/when-wolves-remove-their-clothes/
Folks, the real reason I am here at the watcher sites, is not because I believe that people like Steve Rowe can be rescued, (although that may happen – God’s will be done) but so that I may contribute something word based and edifying for the rest of you. Navigating the mind field of his nonsense makes that task more difficult, but during that same process, he has shown his hand – so be it.
For what has transpired this last week, I truly give God the glory, for any and all contributions, as I believe that our discussion this week was providential, and that all of those who stood up for Bible truth have been inspired in their comments by the Holy Spirit, who Jesus promised would lead us into all truth.
As the old saying goes in solid Christian circles:
“Truth has boundaries, but error knows no bounds…”
Austin,
Well if you haven’t got your answer by now, I’d say that to keep on making such a request would seem to be flogging a dead horse…
You’re right. 195 comments and counting and still no response.
The prophet Austin has spoken.
@ Gordy,
“The prophet Austin has spoken.”
Gordy, go seek counseling like a good little boy.
Thanks for the advice, Azaiah. Great name by the way.
Let me introduce you to my Counsellor. He is Parakletos.
John 14:16-17
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever– the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
@ Gordy… Per your: “Thanks for the advice, Azaiah. Great name by the way.”
Uhh, didn’t I see you giving Jim Styles the following advice above:
“First, the name on the comment is Gordy. I don’t call you Fred, or Dick or Bertie. I’m happy to, but I RESPECT your chosen identity.”
So much for what you call RESPECT.
Matt 12:37: “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
As some of us have stated, Gordy is a Hypocritical Pharisee.
Also, thanks so much for trying to introduce me to Parakletos, but I’ve known Him longer than you.
Now like Austin wisely suggested, go get help. Call Dean first, he might want to go with you.
Sorry Azaiah? I don’t see what you’re saying.
I am complimenting you on your name. I like it. It’s a great name.
Are you saying I should address you as Azaiah q.? If so, I’m very sorry.
I have addressed Jim as Jim and he doesn’t mind.
My point is that I don’t call Berean by any other name, even though I know what it is, or churchwatcher by another name, even though I know it, or Zorro by another name even though I know it. It’s a matter of respecting what is being used by the speaker and not being provocative.
Once again I apologise for getting it wrong.
What would you like me to call you?
Just remember this song when ever you expect an honest response from Steve Rowe.
As we’ve said in the past, you have quite the history Steve. What else are you hiding in your online closet that you are not telling us about?
Gordy, Allright don’t worry about it.
I’ve been spending too much time commenting anyway, since Parakletos has been tugging at me to do some other things that I need to wrap up soon.
All, until next time….
No, actually the “prophetess” from The Narrowing Path spoke well and quite some time ago, but you have yet to respond to her very detailed and well thought out post…
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3441
Surely even the blindest of the blind Pharisees on the Internet could open their eyes a little wider, and at least see the link, if not the contents of the link?
No, actually, I have responded.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3606
Yes Steve you did, almost another day later – a little trouble with ‘blindness’?
@ Austin …. we’re on the same page.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3602
Thank God for that Berean – I must admit that Steve’s been at his best/worst yesterday and today, and it seems like I am flying an old WW 1 biplane – dogfighting him at every turn – kind of makes you dizzy, but you get used to it after a while.
And then there’s the victory roll at the end…
Good on you, Red Baron. You’re a brave man taking on the Snoopy!
So what are your plans for Sunday? Do you have a church in mind to visit?
@ Austin – make sure you have a parachute attached to that plane 🙂 apparently they work!
http://www.smh.com.au/national/plane-parachute-gives-near-disaster-a-soft-landing-20140510-zr8uc.html
Thanks Berean – I actually enjoy flying model helicopters in the local park when the wind’s right. Steve would enjoy flying them too.
You can actually get from A to B by ducking around anything that might get in the way and never have to fly in a straight line…
Nice hobby. Have fun.
Yes, well I was thinking of visiting my local C3 “church”, but seeing you’ve been telling me all about them these last 2 weeks, I’ve changed my mind…
Phew!
Any other plans? Somewhere emergent? Are there still classic Pentecostals in he area?
Anywhere I can sefely land the biplane without crashing and burning…
Might help if you stop causing turbulence by calling people wolves and suchlike.
Well Steve, if the sheepskin fits (even if it is a ‘loose’ fit) wear it!
You see, Austin, here’s the deal. My wife and I have been serving Christians for over thirty years. In that time we’ve attended only a small handful of churches, and only ever joined a different church because we relocated to another town or city or on a ministry assignment.
We have never had a single spiritual, disciplinary or social issue with any of the churches we have attended, and have always contributed, through our time, energy and giving, to the life of the church, doing what we were asked of the leadership because we are open, teachable, good sheep, for the duration of the time we were in that town or city.
Whenever we moved to another place we were given a friendly, warm send off by the wonderful people we were serving alongside.
We are welcome in each and every church we have been part of, and still maintain contact with the leaders and members of those churches on a friendly basis. We are in good standing with our ministry peers and continue long standing relationships with church members and leaders from a large cross section of denominations and movements.
We have only ever helped to put together struggling churches on assignment, and never split them, hurt them, or devalued them, either publicly or covertly. We have been involved with church planting, not church destroying. Those churches and ministries remain viable and strong today.
We currently attend a church plant where we are not in leadership, but our ministry gifts are recognised by the leadership and we contribute with our time, effort and giving and are in good standing with all the members and leadership.
For all of this glory goes to God for his patience, leadership and guidance, because without Christ we could do nothing.
Now, you and someone else on this thread, have more than once called me a wolf. That is a very serious charge.
I have had you label me many things on this and another blog, and basically ridden the wave of unsubstantiated trivia you have hurled at me. Now you have continued the accusation that I am a wolf and I am asking you desist.
My wife and I have never been called wolves by anyone in ministry who recognises what we do in the Body, which includes leaders from many denominations.
I’ve told you this because that is at least four times now you have made the accusation.
This blog is not a church, and you are not one of ‘my’ sheep, nor is anyone here one of ‘my’ sheep. We are bloggers, blogging, that is all. My hope is that you are the sheep of God’s pasture.
I’ve tried to make light of what you have accused me of and shrug it off, but you persist.
Now you can say what you like about us, and I will turn the other cheek or maybe give you some cheek back, in love, but I am asking you, as a brother in Christ, who loves and serves the Lord with all his heart, asking you, please, for the last time, to desist from calling me a wolf.
@ gordy, your slipping under the radar for thirty years at all your churches proves absolutely nothing, except now we know there is at least 1 other person, who is as immature as you (your wife). because she condones all your nonsense.
the only reason you came on here was this: TO ARGUE.
no, actually there were two reasons. the other was to: BRAG ABOUT YOURSELF.
ps: your definition of “teachable” is worthless. because you havent even entertained the possibility that either Hillsong or C3 is bad. in fact, you continue to justify them. even worse, you want them send more cult members out into world to fool more people. so your “teachable” comment is laughable. your own actions defy your words, by all your arguing.
I asked for a clarification and we’ve had a discussion. I don’t know if you know this, but that’s what people do on blogs.
Now if you think defending my character against a serious charge is ‘bragging’ and I that am merely ‘arguing’, then I suggest you need a reality check of your own motives in coming between myself and Austin in this matter.
Let me put it this way for you, nag, I am appli=ying a Biblical principle.
Matthew 18
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 “But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
I don’t really mind, as I said, what Austin says about me, either seriously or in jest. It’s mostly water off a ducks back. But he has taken it too far when he calls me a wolf. I am saying he has sinned against my character and I am bringing the offence before him the only way I can since I do not live anywhere near him.
I have merely requested that he desist in calling me a wolf, which I consider a serious charge before God. It’s a basic request with no strings. It’s his decision. he may choose to dry my request, then I’ll just hand it over to God.
Regardless of his response I will forgive him seven times seventy, but it is Biblical to bring it to him so that it is cleared up.
I gave testimony of God’s goodness to myself and my wife. That is not bragging on myself but on Him, and I made this abundantly clear.
^ Gordy – the scriptures condemn you, the above included. You do not even believe Matt 18 otherwise you would not be defending Brian Houston and Phil Pringle.
Austin has done very well to try and correct you in your sin. It is amazing you brush him off so willy-nilly. So much for being humble. Why is it whenever you comment people see and call you on your trickery, lies and manipulation? This is not the language and behaviour of a Christ follower but of Satan. You are doing a fine job proving he is your father.
Sorry nfg. That was spellcheck which made it into ‘nag’. Sometimes spellcheck can throw up irony! LOL.
@Gordy well it just appears suspicious to me when anyone keeps talkign about themself all the time. i just keep thinking, who is this blog about, brian or gordy.
and reading some of your comments to austin, i admit i feel like you do keep attacking him. in jest or not i dont know, i just dont see the love of Christ there in all the comments.
n-f-g,
thanks for the civil response. I appreciate it,
Austin, bless his soul, seems to revel in a bit of biffo. I can assure you my request was to churchwatcher and Austin, and couple of others, wanted a stag wrestle. Must be mating season over at their place! You seemed to be sharpening up the horns yourself.
Why should I back down or let things go and hear back, when I do, as churchwatcher has already done, that I run away with my tail between my legs? No win situation.
My preferred option would be that we discuss differences in an adult way and without the biffo, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and Austin crossed it.
Here’s what happens. I say something defensive about Hillsong, a commenter attacks my own character, I defend it, others join in and before long it looks as if it’s all about me, not Brian, as you say. That, though, is the way this blog operates whenever someone says something positive about Hillsong.
i see austin as a purveryor of truth because even during what some might call quiet times on here, i noticed he tries to warn people about various things they might not have heard of, presumably so they dont get tripped up by them. you dont know who all reads this blog, quiet people might be heeding some of those warnings.
nfg
That’s fine, nfg, but we also have to take responsibility for the claims we make.
It’s easy to call someone something, or level an accusation, but if it’s wrong it can do a lot of damage.
“That’s fine, nfg, but we also have to take responsibility for the claims we make.”
I can’t believe that comment came from you Steve. Looked in the mirror lately?
Gordy, not just “claims”, we have to also take responsibility for “references” too.
like if you reference/quote judah smith for example, you may point others toward judah smith.
so if you quote/refer to these people, while making no disclaimers about them, that can do equally, if not more, damage.
It works the other way, too n-f-g. The more you point at Hillsong the more people are curious, whether you’re negative or not. There have been anti-Hillsong sites for over ten years, starting with the original Signposts, which was quite a well organised site, but it generated as much curiosity about the place as a positive site.
I don’t see Hillsong diminishing at all.
And on-line ‘references’ are awfully risky a lot of the time. The headline on this post, for instance, is deliberately provocative. It is not referenced at all. It is just hanging out there to catch the curious. How can that be a good indicator of the content? It can’t.
And if you are going to set up a negative site you are certain to attract people who will challenge it if it is inaccurate.
I know that there is controversy over criticism, and I agree that it is valid in the right place, but you have to be very sure of your facts and your argument because you are making other people make a judgment too.
Some criticism is healthy. Even complaints should be aired and listened to as a positive contribution towards improvement. There are ways to do this, though, and public forum has risks which have to be monitored by responsible people without any kind of agenda whatsoever.
And there is no place for a continual barrage of negativity. It simply isn’t Christian or Biblical.
The web commentary is still in a relative infancy, but it ill have to grow up sooner or later.
As churchwatcher so aptly said, I am doing quite OK at caling the spade a spade…
Spoken like a true digger!
Diggers value honesty, mateship and loyalty. They would expose traitors* instantly for the safety of their mates, even kill them if they have to. What a pity today’s Christians won’t follow Ephesians 6:10-18. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+6%3A10-20+&version=NKJV
* Google definition traitor: a person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.
@ Steve
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3522
Just one more thing I need to clear up before I head off into the day – that was not me, as you well know – I use my real name and not a handle
Apologies, Austin. The great masked one himself has paid you a great compliment. I take back what I said. You and he are indeed in the same league.
Have a great day!
@ Steve above https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3664
Honestly, your llittle self promoting and self justifying diatribe impresses me no end. You might as well have been a Mormon or a JW – I’m sure they have their people who are in ‘good standing’ and who will do anything to climb the ladder for the cause.
However, you have, by your own admission:
promoted patently obviously false teachers,
you have supported internationally well known false prophets,
you have even been a ‘senior pastor’ of a C3 church here in Oz
and now you are hobknobbing with the C3 church back home again
– that’s more than enough for anyone in the know to label you.
If you support and promote false prophets, their false doctrines and their money raking activities, then you are no better than them and you will gradually become one of them, despite any past record of good works – they will all have been for nothing.
Despite you protestations to the contrary, you have worked hard all of last week to try and divide the sheep here at the watcher blogsites. You may be in constant denial about that fact – but nevertheless, it remains a fact. Your attempt has failed.
Some who have gone over and visited your woefull blogsite have commented on it too – “this guy doesn’t live in reality” or “you’ve got to be joking” or “grossly verbosse with unreliable information” and that’s just some of the ones who bothered to come back and comment… None of the sheep who come here have been fooled by you…
What you have offered up are the works of your own hands, just like Cain, who then went and slew his brother (righteous Abel) because his own works were earthly, sensuous and devilish – but Abel’s works pleased God, because they relied on the blood sacrifice of Christ in type and shadow form – but the intent was there.
“I have had you label me many things on this and another blog, and basically ridden the wave of unsubstantiated trivia you have hurled at me. Now you have continued the accusation that I am a wolf and I am asking you desist.”
I’m sorry to say that you have earned the title well and are most deserving of it.
Of course anything that is not firmly held to by you would only register as ‘unsubstantiated trivia’ – only the opinion of Pastor Dezastor holds water amongst the uneducated buffoons of C3 and HS watcher blogsites, doesn’t it?
Now here’s a little bit of advice – if you have an allergy to the ‘wool’ you are wearing, then you’ll just have to stop wearing it, Allergies may cause a rash or other form of doctrinal discomfort.
I don’t know what happened to you, but you seem badly in need of a rest and going by your disjointed, divisive and disingenuous rants, I’d have to say the sooner the better.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3668
As you can see folks – none of the sheep have been fooled by this man – not even one:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (John 10:27, 28)
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3676
Actually Steve, yuou’ve crossed dozen of ‘lines’ this past week, but then again your own inate blindness to anything true or real would not allow you to see any of them, feeling that you have the perfect right to do so.
As I said (a long tme ago now,) – Who said that your comments had equal weight to those who have provided much in the way of evidence to support thier views? And where is your evidence, (for the Nth time?) Where are the links to posts, articles, videos (not TD Jakes) of “gospel preaching” going on in any of these ‘churches’?
Where is the sound doctrine coming from the pulpits, and discernment of all prophesy that is expounded by these people? You have provided nothing tangible, and arrogantly maintain (through your silence on the issue) that you do not need to do so.
To date, you have not produced one shred of credible, reliable evidence to support anything you have said – and yet you come after those who would correctly describe you for what you really are, amidst a waterfall of your usual self righteous and self promoting word games.
You respond to their rather serious posts with stupid little quips, questions and characterisations, and yet you vehemently protest when someone calls you out for the comments you make, and the company you keep!
Actually Steve, you’ve crossed dozen of ‘lines’ this past week, but then again your own inate blindness to anything true or real would not allow you to see any of them, feeling that you have the perfect right to do so.
As I said (a long time ago now,) – Who said that your comments had equal weight to those who have provided much in the way of evidence to support thier views? And where is your evidence, (for the Nth time?) Where are the links to posts, articles, videos (not TD Jakes) of “gospel preaching” going on in any of these ‘churches’?
Where is the sound doctrine coming from the pulpits, and discernment of all prophesy that is expounded by these people? You have provided nothing tangible, and arrogantly maintain (through your silence on the issue) that you do not need to do so.
To date, you have not produced one shred of credible, reliable evidence to support anything you have said – and yet you come after those who would correctly describe you for what you really are, amidst a waterfall of your usual self righteous and self promoting word games.
You respond to their rather serious posts with stupid little quips, questions and characterisations, and yet you vehemently protest when someone calls you out for the comments you make, and the company you keep!
.
Please NFG, do not allow this individual to sidetrack you with his false charm and disarming tactics.
His apparent civility is far outstripped by his own rudeness and accusations to date, and his vain attempts to recover and credibility that he feels that he may have had, are false hopes indeed.
He is what he is, and he won’t change his stance just because you and I go after him, and I am not fooled by his silly little mind games, or his emotional appeals to stop calling him a wolf…
This entire thread has been derailed by his ungodly antics this past week, and I think Churchwatcher, that it is high time that we parted company with him.
I guess that’s your response, then, Austin.
I don’t think it’s for anyone here to ‘go after’ a person, only to love them. What do you mean by ‘go after him’? Is that what you do? Go after people? Christians? Saints? Brethren?
Oh well! You leave me no option but to forgive you! We’re done!
I’m just placing this in God’s hands, but you always have the option to change your mind.
Love and peace anyway!
austin, i just posted above, but i dont know why i didnt see my icon in the latest posting list.
anyway what i said was you also have to provide disclaimers if you reference/quote people like judah smith. for instance, judah smith is a big justin bieber fan. in fact some people would say he is justin bieber’s pastor. doesnt anyone recognize how worldly and ungodly justin bieber is? in fact, there are pix up on the internet of judah smith and justin bieber, two buds, arm in arm.
ok, so does judah smith endorse the world now? if one references/quotes these people like judah smith, without any disclaimers, then they better be prepared to give account for that on the day of reckoning.
because those who “lead” others toward unrighteousness, will be just as responsible as anyone else.
Our God is holy. and a Consuming Fire. people just dont get it. i mean they really just dont get it. they think they can get away with small things. not so. gospel of Matthew says a man may be saved, yet his house built of twigs burns up. nothing will be beyond scrutiny, on the day of reckoning.
so all pastors out there who might see this, please dont refer to judah smith to me, unless you explain & disclaim this hocus pocus.
Praise the Lord,
nfg
NFG, I know what you man dear brother – it is entirely at odds to have a Bible in one hand (the Message?) and the latest rock star in the other. What kind of example does that portray for those young impressionable people from age 15 to 25?
“What would Jesus do”? This is a question often asked by those who are just about to bring in some lame brained half truth, compromise or outright deception.
In their view, ‘Jesus’ would probably ask the rock star to autograph his new age, watered down Bible and then stir the crowd up to give a standing ovation for the “star”.
It would also be interesting to see just what Judah Smith stands on the issue of gays in the church. Does he agree or disagree with God’s word, that homosexuality is a sin, and that preaching a false gospel of ‘no repentence’ (for any sin) will damn these people to Hell?
Are these people attempting to “have a bet each way?”. Or are they clearly advertising the fact that the world has invaded the church, with their forekowledge and approval?
Either way, the Lord will probably say to them come Judgement day – “all bets are off”!
Well Steve, it seems that your attempts to present a false facade of your own making has failed to impress anyone so far.
The people who come here are not fooled by your antics and those I have seen post in this last week now have a firm grasp on you, your “history’ and your online tactics.
You only have yourself to blame for this – you chose to come here with intent,and it has not paid off. No amount of ‘charm and smarm’ will suffice to fool those who doggedly stick to God’s word for their understanding of how things work.
Trying to cover your tracks at this late stage of the game with a thin veneer of ‘christian grace’ won’t work either. The bloggers have seen you in full flight this past week, and they are, by and large, not impressed either.
TD Jakes has been highlighted to those who knew nothing of him, not to mention the whole gammut of false ministries that you have openly paraded, supported and promoted.
“Love and peace”? You seem to know nothing of the reality of such things.
As Jesus Christ said:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (John 10:27, 28)
I am applying a Biblical principle, Austin.
Matthew 18
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 “But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
I have asked you merely to desist in calling me a wolf, which I find sinful against my character. Nothing else. Just this.
You have rejected my request.
I have said I have no choice, then, Biblically, but to forgive you. And I do. End of.
We’re done, then.
The best thing you could do is let it go.
If you have to have the last word, just allow it to be something good natured and kind, so we all know you have some grace in you.
Grace and peace to you Austin.
The best thing you can do is quote scripture as it only condemns you. You quoted Matt 18:17-
“And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”
Who thinks it is time to treat Gordy like a tax collector? He aint listening folks.
“I have said I have no choice, then, Biblically, but to forgive you. And I do. End of.
We’re done, then. The best thing you could do is let it go.”
Well that’s interesting way to end it all Steve – seeing as I never had a hold of “it” in the first place. All I did was to apply the appropriate scripture passages to certain comments, and if they just happened to apply to you, then I’m sorry, but that’s how it goes Steve…
As for Matthew 18 – well I don’t know how many times faithful brethren, who have seen things go very wrong in their respective churches, have attempted to use that very same passage on erring leaders and laymen alike, but to no avail.
They were told silly things lke:
“don’t worry about it, we’ll take care of that at the next board meeting”
and such like. Now that’s what I call circumnavigation.
The sheep have every right to approach someone who is sinning against THEM (privately I might add,). But what if half of the bloggers wanted to use that passage in relation to you Steve Rowe? Would you submit to what you have just outlined as biblical church discipline? I seriously doubt it.
You would attempt to justify yourself at every turn, and then ‘project’ your own faults and failings onto others, as you have done many times this past week, as you “crossed the line”.
Try again…
I am applying a Biblical principle, Austin.
Matthew 18
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 “But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
I have asked you merely to desist in calling me a wolf, which I find sinful against my character. Nothing else. Just this.
You have rejected my request.
I have said I have no choice, then, Biblically, but to forgive you. And I do. End of.
We’re done, then.
If you have to have the last word, just allow it to be something good natured and kind, so we all know you have some grace in you.
Grace and peace to you Austin.
churchwatcher,
Austin has done very well to try and correct you in your sin. It is amazing you brush him off so willy-nilly. So much for being humble. Why is it whenever you comment people see and call you on your trickery, lies and manipulation? This is not the language and behaviour of a Christ follower but of Satan. You are doing a fine job proving he is your father.
Et tu Brute?
“Ete tu Brute” was supposed to have been said by Julius Caesar when he was stabbed to death by his own former political supporters, while on the way to the Roman Senate.
I don’t think that there is any comparison between you and a Roman Emperor Steve, and to suggest that Churchwatcher was stabbing you in the back, as if he had once been a faithful supporter of yours, but has now become some kind of “tragic traitor” is both laughable and indefensible and a tragedy in itself.
Surely you have fallen headlong into the pool of Narcissus, and will no doubt drown there while wallowing in a strange mixture of foolish pride and self made deception.
Delusions of granduer? Apparently…
Yes Churchwatcher – I do think that it is high time that Steve Rowe was crossed off the list here at the blog…
He has constantly accused and abused others with his ungodly antics, has shown no credible evidence as to his own claims, while at the same time, hypocritically claiming that we should “show cause” with proof abounding.
I think we all did that admirably – everyone who stands for truth.
He has promoted false profits and the people who make them, and their doctrines and practices, without a let up.
I’d say that’s a good enough case for excommunication from the blog, wouldn’t you?
Bunny trail alert! 🙂
Reading N-F-G’s reference to Judah Smith above – why would Judah Smith, in the midst of his “Jesus is bringing sexy back”, (as if that wouldn’t set off alarm bells) not pause on Easter Sunday April 2012 and dedicate that service to Christ and Christ alone, not his “series”?
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2012/04/jesus-brings-sexy-back-on-easter.html
That’s crass – Jesus is bringing sexy back ???!!!::((@@@””””. Those people have definately lost the plot!
I don’t have a problem with Gordy if he dialogues without creating his own bunny trails.
Berean, the problem is that there may be young believers who are reading the blog and who may well be deceived by him and his false image and language. They may not post in and therefore, we won’t be aware of them and their potential vulnerability to such deceptions.
You and I may never be deceived by this man, but they may well, in time come to accept some of his foolishness as being OK, due to their inexperience with such eople, and suffer accordingly.
He is not ‘dialoguing’ – he is deliberately trying to deceive people with his contant barrage of accusations, questions, inuendos and abuse.
I feel that it is time Churchwatcher put an end to it, by declaring the blog a “no false prophet” zone.
Thanks, Berean, It’s been a pleasure talking again.
Is it OK to email you? I won’t if you don’t want me to. Nothing intrusive.
Sorry, don’t worry about it, I had a thought but I don’t want to bother you with it.
All the best and nice to talk.
Well, everyone, the committee has decided.
I am so glad Jesus operates a little differently with mercy and grace and it is in His hands I am secured.
If Austin is to continue to call me a wolf, I forgive him. If churchwatcher continues to call me the son of satan I know they called my Saviour Jesus this too. I forgive him also.
Blessings and peace to everyone.
Gordy.
Are you guys going for the Guinness book of records?
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-photos-of-justin-bieber-bro-ing-out-with-pastors-judah-smith-and-carl-lentz-105511/
i dont know why im having trouble posting one of the links to the pix, trying agin,
nfg
That’s awesome!
What’s awesome Annette?
Austin, I must admit that I have a bad habit of commenting before I’ve done my homework, or listened to, watched the videos. Must stop doing that. It’s awesome if they are helping Justin Beber to know Christ. But bad if they are compromising and bringing the world into the church. For example “Jesus is bringing sexy back”!!! Now that’s weird. That’s totally off the track. Jesus is bringing sin back, the flesh back? I don’t think so. Planet earth calling planet mars.
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3699
“I am so glad Jesus operates a little differently with mercy and grace and it is in His hands I am secured.”
Claiming the mercy and grace of God and at the same time alluding to the Reformed doctrine of eternal security seem to be at odds with each other don’t you think Steve? I still wonder how you got through Bible College with mixed up perspectives like that…
“If Austin is to continue to call me a wolf, I forgive him. If churchwatcher continues to call me the son of satan I know they called my Saviour Jesus this too. I forgive him also.”
If Steve is to contue to act like a wolf, the I suppose I’ll just have to keep on calling him one…
Perhaps Steve would like to go to this church next Sunady? Or maybe he already does…
https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/05/04/hillsong-grooming-its-members-to-embrace-queerstianity-part-2/#comment-3722
@ Annette – I agree – the problem as I stated elsewhere is that many young people who are looking on at such on-stage spectacles will follow the example of their leaders. If it’s cool to have a mega star on stage as the focus of the meeting (whether they are saved or not,) then it may just lead the youth to believe that “this is normal for what you do in church”.
If as you say, a ministry is leading a celebrity to Christ and not embracing the worldly way of doing things, I would say “well done” and while this is possible and may have happened on a number of occasions, it looks to me that the emphasis is sadly going back the other way. The “church” ends up compromising the saving Gospel of Jesus because it wants to invite the world in – whether they are celebrities, or people who do not want to give up sinful lifestyles.
That is the concern shared by many. It’s not a matter of being ‘legal’ or ‘judgmental’ with these people – especially when they come to the Lord with genuine repentance evident in their hearts. We certainly need to be gracious with all new converts, as they adjust their lives to what God’s word teaches them in terms of how they should live as Christians.
That is one of the jobs of a true shepherd – to teach the new sheep the ways of God, as they all submit to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Chief Shepherd:
John 10:1 – 6
“1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
and then the following verses:
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
I totally agree with you, Austin
Alright, so I’m poking around reading some about Hillsong church cause I don’t know much about them. And I very much care about biblical truth.
That said… You have got to be kidding me! A blog article by someone with a clear agenda about a meeting with a high profile pastor?! It would suspect even if there was a transcript… But no, not even a transcript. Just a “he told me…” Can you verify any of this?
Look, I understand the need to stop this false doctrine in the church that homosexual behavior is ok. The early church had to teach people not to engage in orgies and marrying their mothers, so this is not new…
But if your critique is fair, then don’t use factless claims.
Chris, I’m just wondering about Brian Houston and many other Hyper Faith teachers (after the ilk of Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Ken Hagin et al,) who have promised God’s people “health, wealth and prosperity” only to see many walk away from the things of God, due to those “factless claims” being proved to be bogus?
People who have faithfully “tithed” and given their time, energy and talents, have believed the doctrines, walked the walk of (Hyper) faith, as taught by the leading lights of that movement, and have left in disgust, as they finally realise that those bogus claims are empty, and devoid of all Biblical meaning.
Yes, there is a need to stop this false doctrine – all of it – it is leading countless millions to a Christless eternity, it preaches another Jesus, espouses a different ‘spirit’ (but not the Holy Spirit) and offers a false gospel, by which no one can be saved. Why wouldn’t you want to stop it?
It is the false prophets of this era who are making false claims, backed up by an army of blind followers, who end up going off the edge, just like a bunch of lemmings. their claims cannot be substantiated by scripture and the Kingdom fruit isn’t there in the lives of their followers…
When church leaders, who have a global influence start to say that “gay is OK” then the church is in serious trouble – that ‘church’ has lost its way and has no foundation in the true Gospel, which is repentance from sin and faith towards God. What the false prophets teach is that you can stay in your sin and have faith in the money preachers, and that is just a lie…
Do you know who said these words, ‘I am the way, the truth and the life’? I pray that you find grace of repentence and follow after the Word of God and not the doctrines or teachings of man. If you find time and favour from God, read Romans 1.