Alpha & Omega ministries, Carl Lentz, cult, Dr James White, Hillsong, Hillsong cult, homosexuality, James White, Lentz, liar, lying, mislead, postmodern obfuscation
For decades we have watched Hillsong act underhanded to Christians who question their practices and towards media who do their best to accurately report on the Hillsong movement. We are very concerned seeing similar games played by Hillsong behind the scenes to respected ministers and leaders.
Dr. James White is a respected Christian man in the field of discernment and apologetics. He sometimes weighs in on important church issues and recently decided to tackle the controversy surrounding Hillsong’s vague stance on homosexuality.
We wish to highlight what James White recently said on his show titled ‘Seer Stones, Hillsong Church, and KJVOnly Deceitfulness’:
“So when someone says, “Jesus never addressed this issue,” they’re just ignorant. They just don’t know what they are talking about. And Carl says, “I know that. I agree. And it was a combination of my not speaking clearly enough and them not following up with what I said afterward where I said those things.”
So, you know. Okay I hear you. Got it. Alright.
I tried to be- if I’m going to criticise, I want to try to be fair, and I want to try to be accurate. And the fact is, there are sources amongst conservative Christians that are trusted that shouldn’t be. We re-post stuff that isn’t always overally accurate. And my concern was exactly that. My concern was exactly that. Because, these are important issues. And when we are not- when we don’t do our homework and we just go with the twelve-gate shotgun blast from the start, we may think we are doing the Elijah thing. But in reality we are only hurting ourselves. Because then people can just focus on that and not focus upon what the real issue is.”
Source: James White, Seer Stones, Hillsong Church, and KJVOnly Deceitfulness, Alpha & Omega Ministries, http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2015/08/05/seer-stones-hillsong-church-and-kjvonly-deceitfulness/, 26:17-27:50, Published 05/08/2015. (Accessed 10/08/2015.)
One has to wonder what Carl Lentz disclosed in that conversation with James White.
This is because we have the impression that Dr. James White had trouble finding the source of this quote from Carl Lentz and we find it odd that Carl Lentz didn’t give him the audio/source or apologise for his sloppy witness on the CNN program.
You can find this uploaded media presentation with the relevant quote (9:18-10:08) in the Poppy Harlow interview, on the ‘Pastor Carl Lentz’ YouTube channel.
Below the video, you can read:
Carl Lentz 2015 sermons | Carl Lentz sermons.
Directed by Carl Lentz
Be Blessed As You Grow In Grace And Knowledge and share the videos with your friends so that they maybe blessed too.
Source: Pastor Carl Lentz, Carl Lentz | Tattooed Megapastor Carl Lentz The Next Joel Osteen Mar 12,2015, YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPOKqMonUc8, Uploaded 10/03/2015. (Accessed 10/08/2015.)
So why didn’t Carl Lentz “bless” James White?
Just in case it may be pulled by Hillsong, here is another screen grab of this video from the ‘Pastor Carl Lentz’ channel (titled ‘Carl Lentz | Tattooed Megapastor Carl Lentz The Next Joel Osteen Mar 12,2015‘):
If Carl is protesting to James White “that it was a combination of [him] not speaking clearly enough and them not following up with what [he] said afterward where [he] said those things,” then why has he supposedly uploaded this video on his own YouTube channel?
[09:18-09:20] Announcer: “Are gay men and women welcome in the church?”
[09:21-09:24] Carl Lentz: “Absolutely. We have a lot of gay men and women in the church and I pray we always do.”
[09:25-09:30] Laura Lentz: “It’s not our place to tell anyone how they should live. That’s there journey.”
[09:31-9:37] Announcer: “Every article I’ve read about you guys says, “he declined to discuss gay marriage.’”
[9:37-10:08] Carl Lentz: “Yeah, it’s a misquote because I do discuss it just not the way people want me to. When it comes to homosexuality, I refuse to let another human being or a media moment dictate how we approach it. Jesus was in the thick of an area where homosexuality, just like it is today, was wildly prevalent. And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.”
Source: Pastor Carl Lentz, YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJZXVdwvO8, Uploaded 07/06/2/15. 09/08/2015. (Accessed 09/08/2015.)
In Australia, Hillsong has been saying for decades that the media are great (only when they look good). However, whenever the Australian media report Hillsong peddling Word of Faith or prosperity heresy; reported on scandals; report on leadership abusing or ripping off it’s members financially, etc, Hillsong are quick to demonise, distort, defame and damn the media organisation.
When you watch the CNN media report, it is not tearing into Hillsong. This would make sense as to why Carl Lentz would record this and upload it.
Now that he is being rightly condemned as being “ignorant” or “deceitful” by using that argument in the report, both Lentz and Houston are now defaulting to their typical defamation statements against the media, that being that they were taken out of context or misrepresented.
Thus Carl Lentz’ dialogue with White appears to be disingenuous in regards to the media misrepresenting him. [edit 11/08/2015] If he thought they misrepresented him to begin with, why did he [supposedly] upload that video to his YouTube account? [/edit]
Dr. James White, if you are reading our site, please understand that we respect your work and are perturbed that Carl Lentz was not upfront and honest with you about his views regarding homosexuality. We believe that if you are given well documented evidence against Carl Lentz, you will confront him for his rejection of God’s Word.
[Edit: Carl Lentz has responded to this which we will be addressing:
I have always had great respect for Dr James White’s apologetics ministry dealing with Roman Catholic church, Islam, Mormons and liberal church leaders e.g.openly pro-homosexual “Christian” supporters. His usual opponents make no attempt to hide their true beliefs.
There’s a time and a place for direct debate with the opposing side; a bit like old black-and-white military movies -opposing forces face each other directly, charge onto the battlefield and army with most soldiers remaining wins, battle over until next time.
However guerrilla warfare also needs to be considered as part of an ongoing spiritual battle. Another army battle plan is being used by a secret enemy pretending to be on the same side. e.g. Double agents, spies, infiltrators, secret codes and insider language, steady release of false information (to send their enemy off-target). An insider attack did way more damage to Australian soldiers’ inward confidence than outsider enemy attacks. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/five-aussie-soldiers-killed-in-afghanistan/4233558
The problem here is that White’s opinions are valued so highly if he takes someone like Lentz at their word, people who do already not know what Lentz has said (AND not said) are likely to not consider Lentz to be a risk to the spiritual health of the Christian Church and be more inclined to ignore discernment type websites until it’s too late. Then (similar to what Aussie soldiers went through) wounded Christians – perhaps including extremely knowledgeable Christian leaders – will say “if we can’t trust those who have worked and trained and lived beside us for so long, who CAN we trust?”
Time limits with White’s shows, university lectures would make it very difficult for someone like him to keep up-to-date with Christian discernment issues as well. I hope when he has the opportunity he takes the time to find current discernment blogs/websites/ Christian experts in the relevant field he can rely upon for future reference.
Thinker – There’s quite a few fans of Dr. James White commenting here and that’s not going to change. Unfortunately like another reformed apologist, Saiko Woods, he and Dr. White have taken Lentz at face value and been led down a murky trail. We can wonder what they think now the two gay Hillsong New York attendees have told their side of the story. Chris Rosebrough has been in communication with Carl Lentz over a long period of time and kept quiet about it until finally “forced” (via twitter to Woods) to reveal that communication to Saiko Woods who has talked publically about it over the same period of time.
Lentz is basically what the bible calls unteachable when it comes to the more biblically mature voices speaking into his “worldview”.
Wonder if in this situation James White is using same approach that academics usually do when gaining information i.e. go to primary source of another religion’s writings to show how it conflicts with Christianity. Isn’t he able to read Qur’an in Arabic so he can debate with Muslims even better?
Problem is by going to the source of the controversy directly he’s dealing with a *person* (not religious writings) whose strategy is to OMIT information depending on whom he is conversing with at that particular moment. James White has assumed that Lentz is always completely honest when asked direct questions. Lentz has learned Houston’s evasion and dodging tactics very well.
Exactly the case re Lentz, Thinker. Which probably is why Dr. White took the stance he did about Lentz. I hope Lentz actually listened to the whole program and heard what was said about his “pastoral oversight”, Brian Houston. As a regular listener to Dr. White myself, maybe I’ll hear his good friends, Chris Rosebrough and Jordan hall have since brought him up to speed and he will address the topic of Lentz again?.
We will have to remove this post Maria – but please email us your concerns. We take accusations very seriously and don’t publish them unless they can be verified.