For being prominent figures in Christianity, you would think that Brian Houston, Bobbie Houston, and their children would live godly lives and set the example for other Christians to follow, as is Biblical for a pastor and his family to do. If you think the Houstons are people of Biblical integrity, you are sadly mistaken and need to read your Bibles and compare their teachings, and lives, to Scripture’s standards.
Take for example, this instagram photo that was deleted after several people called out Esther Houston on Selena Gomez’ lack of attire and facial expression, in this picture? Esther Houston is pictured next to Selena, apparently unable to “live without you guys”.
Do you think this could cause Christians to stumble?
Here is a comment by natasha_hilburn that was attached to the deleted instagram photo above:
Do you agree with natasha_hilburn? If you do, then apparently you would be considered a “close minded Bible believing hater”. Although we can no longer demonstrate because the image was later deleted, there were many hateful comments against natasha_hilburn and her very observant biblical admonition. The majority to those commenting had no problem at all with the thoroughly inappropriate content initially posted then deleted. We would like to encourage and thank natasha_hilburn for her boldness, courage and concern for those who would call themselves shepherds of God’s precious flock.
Here is the alternative picture Esther Houston posted after receiving backlash?
Source: By Esther Houston, What a crew. LITerally, instagram, https://www.instagram.com/p/_-1k6HAPLo/?taken-by=estherhouston, Published 31/12/2015. (Accessed 03/01/2016.)
Notice there was no apology for causing others to stumble, and no accountability for Esther Houston’s carelessness. Instead, the evidence vanished in the blink of an eye and was seemingly replaced by one more appropriate..
Of course, Esther Houston also posts very strange pictures of herself like this on her Instagram feed. We ask the question – is this the sort of image we need to see, by the wife of a high-profile pastor?
Source: By Esther Houston, That casual moment when you get stuck in a giant box., instagram,
https://www.instagram.com/p/9hwvyqgPFD/, Published 02/11/2015. (Accessed 04/01/2016.)
It’s sad and disturbing that neither Brian nor Bobbie Houston have publicly called out their children for engaging in, and promoting this self-indulgent narcissistic lifestyle.
Many of what some christian circles call ‘Godly men or women’ are the biggest hypocrites, claiming they are holy and living like Christ. But you cannot serve Christ unless you are a wise steward of whay you have. Living like Kings and Queens in lavish houses etc is not something I can see in the gospels.
But all financially rich Christians need to follow Jesus’ way not what the rich christian celebrities are doing. Where they claim God has blessed them so they can live in this blessing how they please.
Esther’s instagram photo, which I guess she considers her way to witness to the world, resembles more like the cover of an X-rated men’s rag. Shameful, an embarrassment to Christianity, and an insult to Christians everywhere.
How can someone claim to know The Savior, then publicly on instagram put up raunchy materials like this photo for all to view? This is mind-boggling.
Sun Ho ‘China Wine’ stuff!-It would make a good cover for a ‘China Wine’ cd!
Appears the brian houston clan are just another example of matthew 24:11
“and many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray.”
which is exactly what this worldly bunch is doing.
More HARLOTRY from the great HILLSONG HARLOT.
They love the world, the money the high dollar fashion, the glitz and the glamor.
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Esther Houston is just another pig with a gold ring in its snout like mother in law “potty mouth” Boobie.
What’s next from Hillstench? Christian pornography?
What a great example to Christian young women. Everything about this about this Esther Houston is inconsistent with the Biblical pattern of a noble woman. She presents herself like an egocentric hollywood attention whore. A love for expensive clothes, “A list” worldly friends, “look at me! I’m famous”! One of the so called “beautiful people”. Where is the modesty and humility that is considered honorable by biblical standards? I have more respect for a muslim woman in a burqua than for this piece of Hillsong trash.
Terry, Good point about the burqa.
A true Muslim woman could never be accused of looking sexually promiscuous. No wonder Muslim men see Christian/Western women as sex objects to be exploited (as recently demonstrated in Cologne) if this is the unholy standard set by a high ranking pastor’s wife. It is becoming easier all the time to understand why they see Christianity as a failure if this is acceptable Christian conduct.
Seriously, that “cardboard box” image looks like some kind of bondage/fetish porn. She would have a hard time saving her head from being cut off for that if she was in Saudi. If such a thing happened it certainly could not be considered martyrdom.
“Seriously, that “cardboard box” image looks like some kind of bondage/fetish porn.”
I noticed that too. That’s how that image appeared me.
A quick Google search shows Esther Houston, wife of Joel Houston is 28 years old, 6 years younger than Joel. The bible says that Christian leaders/ wife of leader are to have higher moral standards, words and behaviour.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3%3A1-13&version=KJV
Note 1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/3-11.htm
Perhaps someone should introduce Ms. Houston to Romans 12:1-2, because she seems to not have enough time nor interest to read it for herself…
“1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
I have nothing to say – a picture is worth a thousand words.
Does anyone know why youth pastor Paul Andrew was stood down many years ago? I attended the Hillsong youth group way back, but have since moved on. I’ve just stumbled on to your site and thought you might know what happened.
She uses the following term to describe herself on her Instagram account, and really this sums her up very nicely: “Super Cali Swagalistic Sexy Hella Dopeness”.
It’s very clear that self promotion and showing off the materialistic lifestyle you get when you marry a rich pastor’s son seems to be her thing. It’s also very clear that’s what Hillsong is about – transferring great wealth from from the uneducated masses who aspire to achieve the same lifestyle that the Houston’s say say God wants to give them. I can’t believe the Hillsong congregation still buys (literally) into the lie, that “church” has nothing to do with Christ or the bible.
“Super Cali Swagalistic Sexy Hella Dopeness”
Wow. Just wow.
I think what is more revealing is her lack of witness regarding the good news of Jesus as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. What a wasted opportunity. She could share Christ online with her ‘followers’. Instead, shameless self promotion to further her financial interests.
How tragic.
But. She will one day stand account for her use of time.
All those half nude photos will burn up.
And she will no doubt feel much shame.
As I’m sure, so will many of us who also fail to use our gifts and talents wisely.
The whole Houston show is a sham.
Religion is a sham.
Churchianity is a money making business.
We can worship the Lord anywhere anytime in Spirit and in Truth.
And if Jesus is correct, the Father desires no less.
The outrageous mentality of these self-promoting narcissists is beyond staggering.
Actually if she really is a 28 year old mother (as one of the other comments alleges) being a spiritual bankrupt aside she should really put some effort into growing up, because “swagalistic sexy hella dopeness” is something that I would expect from a 14 year old girl, not someone’s mom…
Just double checked Wikipedia out of curiousity. It says Joel Houston was born in 1979 (currently 36). There’s a 6 year age difference – therefore Esther should be 30 years old, not 28 years old as I had typed (was hard to get direct answer via Google).
A non-Christian MOTHER now in the 30+ age group wouldn’t normally be posing with teens/very young adults as if they’re “her best friends eva…. YOLO!!!”
Titus 2:3 The aged women* likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
—
* to most teenagers anyone over 30 is ancient and past their use-by-date !
“Dopeness’ is right. Nutcase! …Maybe she is on dope and sending a subtle signal.
“swagalistic sexy hella dopeness”
How many pastor’s wives talk like this? This Esther Houston is the only one I have ever seen talk like this. How many members are in her church?
This makes you wonder what she says when she’s “off the record.”
First the cardboard box pic? The fact that you all see this as porn is more a reflection on yourselves than her. TO the pure all things are pure. Its just a funny photo. Now that you mention it, I can see why you don’t like it. But, its not that bad.
As for the Gomez one, it wasn’t Esther dressed badly. Selena isn’t naked anyway. But even if her attire isn’t godly enough for you, good on her for having friends outside the church. Do you guys only associate with fellow churchwatchers?
This is the whole reason why HIllsong attracts thousands. Because the love people.
And its why this website is a handful of people. WHat do you guys do when you get together? Read Calvines INstitutes? Listen to Pirate Radio? Watch a Macarthur video? Or search the internet looking for something to accuse and condemn the HOustons over?
By the way, Both Esther and Selena are babes!
The jealousy on this site is amazing.
Quick question “Loving Christian,” do you attend Hillsong or even like Hillsong?
“TO the pure all things are pure. Its just a funny photo….But, its not that bad.”
Does it glorify Jesus? No.
You are sick.
“But even if her attire isn’t godly enough for you”
Not that it isn’t godly enough for us, it’s that it’s not godly at all.
1 tim 2:9 “I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety,”
She doesn’t dress godly enough for God’s standards so that makes her a hypocrite claiming to be a christian.
To what Loving Christian said,I want to tell you right now.Hillsong is just a money making compromising church that is catering to the gullible masses.The remnant will be saved,they will not.They are not the remnant.The gospel they preach is what the 501c organisation and government want them to preach.
I am going to make myself clear right now.This compromising empire does not care about people.It’s just a front to make more money and also they only accept for females a size 10 dress size on stage.(I know what I am talking about).I am so over their image driven,compromising gospel b/s.(It is not the true gospel).I know what the hell I am talking about because a family member was a member for years at the garden city brisbane church,and there was no say on what the congration wanted to making it a hillsong church.This family member also was personal friends with Darlene Zschech.
I will and I am making myself clear.I am so over these churches that are full of compromise,people pleasing,money hungry,and such.
I will say this,before I am finished.These kind of churches are EXACTLY!,what happened in ww2.They are all connected.Yes!,I am yelling and yes,I’ve past had it with these b/s places that are only interested in good looks,money,what you wear,what you drive and what you do.They are as shallow as can be.
No dying to self,NO,no following Jesus on how He’s supposed to be followed.
They rip people off in Gods name and I and so many others have had past a gutful.
No,only good looking people in a size 10 dress up on stage and you have to spend half your bloody wages to be a clone.
These churches are going to be unfortunately thrown into hell.
Shame on all of them.
(I rest my case).
“The jealousy on this site is amazing.”
No. Your naivety is amazing.
I think Esther and Bobby and Brian etc are doing the best they can.
I’d rather support them than publicly attack them.
“I think Esther and Bobby and Brian etc are doing the best they can.
I’d rather support them than publicly attack them.”
If they were doing the best they can, they’d believe the gospel, believe the bible and obey Jesus Christ. Why “support them” if they aren’t regenerate? That’s not a very “loving Christian” thing to do.
You might want to consider changing your online name since your posts hardly reflect anything “loving” or anything “Christian.
I suggest they rename themselves more to something like “Loving Degenerate”.
Loving Christian.
Brian and Bobbie and all of their children MAKE PROFIT off the name of Jesus Christ.
They have mansions and expensive cars and buy designer clothes.
It is absolutely WICKED.
THEY.ARE.CHARLATANS.
You should be supporting the homeless, widows and orphans.
Not these worldly charlatans.
Go back to sleep,loving christian.It’s people with mindsets like yours,that keep going around in circles.It’s a sad case that so many churches like this & others,that are in a spiritual coma.I rest my case.
Okay, I changed my name.
Churchwatcher, Do you HONESTLY think they don’t believe the gospel. Do you HONESTLY know that they aren’t regenerate? Really? That’s a HUGE statement to make.
I think they are following JEsus the best way they know how. They are probably not up to your standards, but most of us wear clothes and have hairstyles that could be attacked by some Christians somewhere in the world.
I consider these people fellow travellers. We are all just living the way we think is best.
I personally dont attend HIllsong, but I don’t know of any other church reaching more people. If a thousand young people accepted Christ and got baptized at one of the HIllsong churches in a year, you don’t think ANY of them really became Christians?
THat’s a huge statement to make. And if you say that about Hillsong, you’d probably have to say the same thing about just about every other church on the planet.
I think you also are doing what you think is right. And if you like, send these people some private emails. But to totally slam them publicly and say they aren’t even saved is way too much. In my opinion.
Hope that comes across better.
“Do you HONESTLY think they don’t believe the gospel. Do you HONESTLY know that they aren’t regenerate? Really?
That’s a HUGE statement to make.”
I’ts a huge statment but it is a factual statement. And you can see their unregenerate behaviour every Sunday when they get up and preach everything else but the Christian gospel. Brian does not know it. After the hundreds (and probably thousands) of sermons we’ve heard of his, we’ve NEVER heard him preach it.
If they knew the gospel – they’d preach it. They will preach the prosperity gospel, the purpose driven gospel, the liberal gospel, the word of faith gospel and a works based gospel. We are yet to hear them believe or preach the one and only saving gospel.
Only a Christian can believe and preach the gospel. Brian on the other hand is a false teacher – and cannot and will not preach the saving gospel unless first he is regenerate. It’s an obvious mark of a false teacher.
Keep your opinions. If Christ damns false teachers like Brian Houston, your opinions mean nothing. Why exalt your opinions above the Word of God and the blatant facts?
You really need to get your head in to the pastoral apostles. Hillsong leaders do not even come close to being qualified to the pastoral office let alone showing any evidence that they are Christian in the first place.
There are a few posting here as moderators of Team ChurchWatch. Hillsong never saved anyone. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit through sound preaching of the gospel, just saying.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“I think they are following JEsus the best way they know how.”
Really? Noone follows Jesus by sharing photos of half-naked women on Instagram accounts with a couple hundred thousand followers.
Hell$ong preaches the false gospel that Paul the apostle spoke about and cursed.
You don’t believe that Brian Houston believes and preaches the basic elements of the Gospel? Really?
Some of you came out of C3 and HIllsong right? YOu don’t think ANYONE in C3 or HIllsong is saved? YOu never heard or believed the gospel until you LEFT these churches. That is really hard to believe.
Is Billy Gaham saved? Joel Osteen? Rick Warred? Franklin Graham?
“YOu don’t think ANYONE in C3 or HIllsong is saved?”
Did we say that or are you slanderously putting words in our mouth?
You don’t hear the gospel in these churches. Occasionally, something gospel-ish will emerge in a Christian writers music or some younger preacher. Josh Kelsey of C3 was a good example of this but look at him these days.
“Joel Osteen? Rick Warred?”
For these two, clearly the answer is NO.
Billy ‘Gaham’, questionable at best. See his interview with Robert Schuller for reason.
Franklin Graham, YES. He stands up for righteousness.
“Franklin Graham?”
note: Even recently as seen in the media, Franklin Graham has taken a major stand for righteousness. It has become clear he is a man very committed to the cause of Christ.
not trying to slander. BUt if you say Brian Houston and Esther Houston aren’t regenerate, i wonder what you think the chances are of the others being saved.
Dont have any idea who Josh Kelsey is.
“BUt if you say Brian Houston and Esther Houston aren’t regenerate, i wonder what you think the chances are of the others being saved.”
That’s why we are here. Pointing people to the gospel and good Christian ministries that also preach the gospel. We get lots of emails from people thanking us for doing what we are doing.
I think that there are some genuinely saved people who naively attend services with the C3 and Hillswrong church but they are spiritually immature and without discernment or they would be somewhere straight. If they are saved it is certainly not through Hillswrong doctrine or example.
I think a lot of people are there for what they can get for themselves because that is the way the Hou$tons market the prosperity gospel, a bit like the the crowds that were with Jesus when He put on the fish & loaves but they shot through when the menu changed to His flesh & blood.
I think there are others who are there as the seeds amongst the thorns who will remain unfruitful because of the cares of the world & deceitfulness of wealth too. Just my thoughts, nothing more.
Well said Captain Dilley.
“a bit like the the crowds that were with Jesus when He put on the fish & loaves but they shot through when the menu changed to His flesh & blood.”
Yes. Similar to how all the low hanging fruit (many of which are at Hillsong) are gonna simply bolt when times get tough and the great falling away comes and people’s faith gets tested, and their faith is in the Prosperity Teachings of Brian C Houston, rather than having foundation based on sound Bible teaching.
They’ll be able to thank Brian C Houston for that (meaning cursing Houston). Paying all those tithes won’t help them, not them, nor Brian C Houston.
“What an elite group of people you have here. Heaven will be a very lonely place judging by what most people here believe.”
And your words condemn you. Christ Himself said that the way is narrow and only few enter in. You’ve made your position very clear where you are heading. You are standing with the damned in spite of Jesus’ clear teachings and his warnings against false prophets. For the sake of your soul, LOVE Christ by keeping his word and dare to DISCERN or THINK for yourself.
We’re not elite – we’re elect. Looks like you can’t discern the difference.
Don’t condemn us for judging when Christ has already condemned these false teachers we have spoken against. He has described Brian Houston, Rick Warren and many others like them very clearly in his teachings. It is in your ignorance you are condemning Christ and his teachings, not us. We are simply pointing out to people what God considers to be a fraud.
The Churchwatcher is correct.
There is no doubt that the Houston’s are false teachers and the Bible declares the judgement of such, end of story. Rick Warren is a heretic, so is Joel Osteen and there are many, many more. They are easy to pick if you know your Bible and compare what they say to it. Blackest judgement is reserved for them, they will be better off with a millstone around their necks etc, the Bible says so.
You say mockingly that Heaven will be a lonely place, perhaps Noah’s Ark seemed a little lonely with just 8 on board while the multitude outside were drowned, and the trek out of Sodom may have seemed a little “elite” while the entire population of the city was incinerated but they are the examples the Jesus Himself chose for us to consider relative to the state of things at the time of his return. The NARROW PATH seems a little lonely at times but if its company you want, there is plenty to be found on the broad road to destruction.
We are in the last days before Christ’s return and PEOPLE WILL NOT TOLERATE SOUND DOCTRINE just as the Book says, they have gathered the FALSE TEACHERS to them to TICKLE THEIR ITCHING EARS. They are being told exactly what they want to hear and the preacher’s pocket is being lined for doing it.
The crooks and the deceived are definitely in the majority now following SEDUCING SPIRITS and DOCTRINES of DEMONS. The end will not be good for them. The blind crowds have the blind leaders they so desire and the blind mock the sighted for declaring the truth.
WHY DOESNT HILLSONG WARN OF FALSE TEACHERS? Jesus warned about false teachers and many being led astray, The apostles regularly warned the church about false teachers/apostles and Biblically sound teachers today warn of false teachers. If HILLSONG is so full of love, why dont they warn of the wrath and judgement to come that people might escape it? Answer is, they cant because they will only expose themselves for what they really are so the lies, deceptions, cover ups and false teaching will continue right up until the door of the Ark closes.
“who are publicly attacking the Houston family and even their wives for hanging out with unchurched people”
You lie… The issue here wasn’t given as them “hanging out with unchurched people.”
The big hoopla was THE BEHAVIOR DEPICTED by THEM AND THE UNCHURCHED PEOPLE in all those photos while they hung out with whoever they hung out with and even while they were alone in that box.
You insist Joel Osteen is a biblical Christian.
You insist those here are the only ones saying otherwise.
Wake up, Sleepyhead. Google “joel osteen false teacher”.
This is not a “criticism website” as you insist on depicting it. This is part of the Body of Christ refuting and rejecting anti-biblical teachers. Here’s the problem… you haven’t spent the time nor effort to study the Bible for yourself.
Here’s more of the Body of Christ refuting and rejecting Joel Osteen:
Meant to actually put up this video instead:
Bensun – Justaguy is just a troll who keeps changing his IP address to be able to comment here (because he’s banned from commenting here in the past). #wedontfeedtrolls
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
“hanging out with unchurched people”
@justaguy,
Since you brought this topic up, one must insert here that it does no good to hang out with unchurched people if you let them influence you, you have to be the one to influence them.
Hellsong doesn’t seem to be changing them, Hellsong ALLOWS gays to sing in the choir on stage, DOES NOT DISCOURAGE justin bieber from taking nude photo island hopping trips, ENCOURAGES selena gomez doing pix like this, etc. You must have a firm foundation and you must know when/how to stand biblical ground:
1st corinthians 15:33 … Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
Character is a serious issue in the Lord’s view.
Pardon my intrusion….the sordid sex kitten in the box. At the back of the box is a glass/acrylic hammer that sits on a book. What is the title to the book? ‘Cause it looks like @UCK SOMETHING SOMETHING. BTW Love the fake gold bars!
Eph 5:3: ” But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints”
We know that Judas had his hand in the till and Jesus did nothing about it.
Mat 26:4. “…. but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Jesus didn’t say anything because Judas had a purpose to fill. So does everyone one of us, and we all go before the Judgement Seat of Christ. Let us pray that we never reject Christ or cause the Gospel to be made a thing of shame. These ‘people’ will be held more responsible because of the power and influence they were given. Personally I think we should be praying(As I Do) that they will repent before it is to late for them. Where would have Frank gone, and I shudder to think! We are all not without sin, but does anyone deserve an eternity in Hell? I always feel sorry for Pharaoh, step brother of Moses whose father took him in and raised him as a son. Yet Pharaoh heart was hardened to show the miraculous workings of God and his end was drowning in the Red Sea along with his army. God will not be mocked.
2 Cor 5:10. ” For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
The book is “Rock Star Chic” – the gold bars demonstrating that they’re having their best life now as they all “Live, Love, Lead”.
Cheers, Team CurchWatch.
Ok my bad with the book title and it’s Matt 26:24…cheers
Rock Star Chick…..I am really quite dim when it comes to the stakes of high fashion; in fact a trip to Blowes Menswear, every 2 years for shirts socks and undies does it for me. However Rock Star Chic is something from the library of Aleister Crowley. In fact it would seem to be a blending of images of Witchcraft, Pornography/Bondage, Satan Worship, Dark Angel Worship and Vampires. This book is from the world of the occult. I wouldn’t be reading it to the kids before they went to bed and I would be very surprised to see it in any Christian house.
Here is a synopsis… http://thecuratedcollection.com/book/rock-star-chic/
ROCK STAR CHIC
The Dark Side of High Fashion
A visual journey of over 300 photographs with fashion’s most cutting-edge photographers, designers and stylists exposes the ominously beautiful obsession with the bad boy aesthetic and reveals what draws us into the darkness, providing a daring testament to the love affair with the gloomy, sultry side of Rock ‘N Roll. Divided into five chapters that explore the different sides of modern rock fashion: Dark Angel, Vamp Glam, Tribal Nomad, Hard Rock, and Future Punk.
Rock star chic. Yes, just goes to show what trash we are really dealing with here.
I expect nothing better from sinners but I expect what the Bible says of “pastors” from people who claim to be such.
These Houstons are vile creatures.
Their fake gold bars testify against them.
They are fake, worthless and deceptive, counterfeit, a con. They are whitewashed tombs and unmarked graves. Their end will be as their actions deserve.
They are worthless as their fake gold and as useless as their glass hammer.
Ah, so we’re finally having this conversation?
I was rather surprised when i stumbled across Esther Houston’s instagram… but then perhaps not. Luxe life, celeb friends, high fashion e.t.c. Jesus thrown in at times (but you have to dig a little deep.)
She has posted questionable things and is constantly called out for it. But the Hillsong sheep are always on hand to defend her scandalous behaviour, along with Brian, who is always telling her to delete and block, and ignore what everyone has to say.
She and Joel make an interesting couple for sure.
What a shame she has been given a platform and would rather use it for all of this. I mean, compare her social media posts to other young pastors wives e.g. – Lucille (Ben’s wife.) I know people don’t put everything on instagram, but it does speak volumes.
I really hope she is not receiving a salary from the Church.
Stumbled across this today… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3472375/Inside-life-Hillsong-Church-leader-Joel-Houston-s-wife-Esther.html
Church watcher,you all do an such a good work,:thankyou.
I think “Hillsong” should be renamed “Hillpong”!.(Because of the stench in Gods nostrils).
A pity that they didn’t think of how people can play with words,when they named that disgraceful & compromising place.