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assault charges, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, hillsong pastor, mesiti, Pat Mesiti, restored hillsong pastor
Silence is not an option for Hillsong.
When Pat Mesiti was exposed for getting drunk and sleeping with prostitutes back in the year 2000, Hillsong’s senior pastor Brian Houston and C3’s senior pastor Phil Pringle worked to restore “money-magnet” Mesiti back into ministry. Pat Mesiti was officially restored back into ministry in 2006 and has been spotted at various times preaching on C3/Hillsong preacher networks.
There is no evidence to indicate he is now an ex-Hillsong or ex-C3 pastor since that restoration. If he isn’t a Hillsong pastor, Hillsong needs to make this clear.
Why Pat Mesiti is still a Hillsong/C3 “Pastor” (sermon review included)
Please also keep Andrea and her family in your prayers. She is a wonderful woman and deserves all the prayer and support of Christians everywhere.
The Daily Telegraph reports,
Ex-Hillsong preacher Pat Mesiti pleads guilty to assault
A FORMER Hillsong preacher has pleaded guilty to attacking his wife on New Year’s Eve while they were finalising their divorce in a Western Sydney court.
Pat Mesiti, 56, confronted his second wife of 13 years, Andrea, at their Hyde Ave, Glenhaven home after seeing pictures of their niece hosting a party at the residence about 10pm on December 31, 2015.
He was at Wisemans Ferry celebrating the New Year with friends when he saw the images on Facebook and began calling and texting his wife.
“After arriving home, the accused being intoxicated has began arguing with all the partygoers including (his niece) demanding them all to get out,” according to police documents tendered to court.
“The victim and accused have engaged in a heated argument during which the victim told the accused that she had allowed the party to happen and that she gave permission for (their niece) to have some friends over whilst she was out.
“The accused had grabbed the victim by the neck. A physical altercation has ensued during which the victim has felt an impact to the right side of her head.”
Police said Andrea escaped the attack without any injuries.
Mesiti was not living with his wife at the time and they were in the final stages of a divorce.
He was charged with assault occasioning actual bodily harm and common assault however the former charge was withdrawn in Parramatta Local Court yesterday.
Magistrate Karen Stafford said his bail would continue with conditions that include not being able to “assault, threaten or harass” the victim or drink alcohol within 12 hours of seeing her for a period of 12 months.
“In a nut shell, you can’t do anything that will make her fear for her safety,” Magistrate Stafford said.
Mesiti remained silent as he left court.
He was once a prominent television evangelist and preacher for Hillsong Church but they stripped him of his license after discovering he had been sleeping with prostitutes.
Since then he has become a successful motivational speaker and author.
The matter is scheduled to return to Parramatta Local Court for sentencing on March 23.
Source: By Leigh Van Den Broeke, Ex-Hillsong preacher Pat Mesiti pleads guilty to assault, The Daily Telegraph, http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/exhillsong-preacher-pat-mesiti-pleads-guilty-to-assault/news-story/e9c1a3a54de7b07fa02fe0e680e7cd28, Published 29/02/2016, 3:41pm. (Accessed 29/02/2016.)
Hillsong Church Watch 
” There is no evidence to indicate he is now an ex-Hillsong or ex-C3 pastor since that restoration. If he isn’t a Hillsong pastor, Hillsong needs to make this clear”
Once again your headline is misleading and the very source you refer to The Daily Telegraph is accurate. The Daily Telegraph headline “Ex-Hillsong preacher Pat Mesiti pleads guilty to assault”
My point is he is an ex Hillsong pastor and your only evidence that he is current is based on that fact that Pat may have preached once in England.
Hillsong fired Pat 15 odd years ago, why is it their responsibility to make it clear he is no longer a Hillsong pastor? they have already made that clear when they fired him.
There is plenty of evidence he not a Hillsong pastor he is not employed by Hillsong, all Hillsong pastors are on there payroll. Another form of evidence is the fact they fired him publicly 15 years ago. The list goes on…
“There is plenty of evidence he not a Hillsong pastor he is not employed by Hillsong, all Hillsong pastors are on there payroll. Another form of evidence is the fact they fired him publicly 15 years ago. The list goes on…”
Looks like the Mesiti-Hillsong connection was not over 15 years ago no matter how hard you try to believe it was over.
* Diversity Night Sun 15th Sept ’13 5:30pm DVD Brian Houston & Pat Mesiti
* Sun 15th Sep ’13 5:30pm CD Brian Houston/ Pat Mesiti
https://distribution.hillsong.com/categories/T/THDD?product_page=23
This fits into the Seven Mountains Mandate and New Apostolic Reformation brand we find at Hillsong. Their message being ‘that if we are to impact any nation for Jesus Christ, then we would have to affect the seven spheres, or mountains of society that are the pillars of any society.’
In their scheme of things, you may be a ‘pastor’ whose field of expertise may be one of these – business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, the family and religion.
Pat Mesiti clearly falls under the category of business.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Pranu
“Looks like the Mesiti-Hillsong connection was not over 15 years ago no matter how hard you try to believe it was over”
I’m not saying he has not been connect to certain individuals. I’m saying he is not a current Hillsong pastor, this is a Straw Man argument.
” this is a Straw Man argument.”
Mine was not a straw man argument. Which you seem to like saying constantly.
However, you yourself are the one continually make very very annoying misleading arguments in order to protect your cult. Please stop.
There’s plenty of evidence he thought he was restored, David.
After leaving C3 Oxford Falls, Pat moved back to the Hills District and started attending Hillsong again. Some moderating here know his wife personally, so that’s not an argument.
In an interview in 2006, Pat reflected on his past and his future :
“What prompted you to start preaching again now?”
“It wasn’t just me…I tell people that you don’t have the call of God, the call of God’s got you…I certainly would go back and forth on but I couldn’t shake it off. It wasn’t just me – I don’t deserve probably to preach ever again – but there’s obviously some people around me that seriously believe in me and believe in the gift of God – and my family certainly did, my wife and my children – and on that basis, (on that of) my spiritual leadership, Pastor Phil Pringle, and on the green light of other Christian leaders, we felt that it was good, that it was the right time.”
“Where do you see yourself five years from now?”
“Five years from now?…Let me put it this way: I still think my calling is to come alongside pastors and help build their churches through winning people to Christ. I see myself as doing more of the same – not the negative behaviour, by the way – but more of the same as far as reaching lost people and reaching broken people and helping those that need help. My passion has always been to build the local church. It hasn’t left me and I want to continue to do that. Evangelism, crusades, business functions – any opportunity we can get to really impact people. That’s what I really see myself doing is being a builder of churches and being a builder of people…I can’t undo what I did and I won’t do it either because there is no way you can unravel that. But the best I can do is try by…the Lord’s ability to forget what lies behind and press on to help build what Jesus is building and that’s His church. That’s where I see myself in five years time and hopefully for the rest of my life. I’m very grateful to God that He’s given me a second chance. People say that God’s a God of second chances and I say ‘Well, God’s a God of the seventy times seventh chance’. We must never limit God and His ability to use us – what He can do and what He can’t do – and I think a lot of people do that…I’m open to whatever God has for me but it will always be, I think, in the confines of helping to build the local church and winning people to Himself.”
http://www.sightmagazine.com.au/stories/Features/mesiti8.5.06.php
ChurchWatch
“There’s plenty of evidence he thought he was restored, David.
After leaving C3 Oxford Falls, Pat moved back to the Hills District and started attending Hillsong again. Some moderating here know his wife personally, so that’s not an argument”
I’m not saying he wasn’t restored and I’m not saying he didn’t start attending Hillsong again, In fact I’m sure he was restored by Phil Pringle and C3 a different Church..Just because C3 Church restored him does not make him a Hillsong pastor!!
What I’m saying is Hillsong didn’t bring him back on as a Hillsong pastor after they fired him 15 years ago. It’s misleading to state he is a Hillsong pastor when he isn’t. Hillsong’s positions is clear they fired him 15 odd years ago.
And yes I know Brian has referred to Him and so has Joel that does not mean he has been restored as a Hillsong pastor.
We’re prepared to do the homework, David, and have done just that. It seems you’re not. Even if we showed you a ‘signed endorsement’ by Houston, you would come up with some reason why it’s not legitimate.
By the way, we don’t reveal all our sources for obvious reasons, and are completely satisfied with the information we present.
And, although we know this scripture is totally out of context, we’re posting it here because it’s the (out of context) one used by those Christian leaders who “restored” him to ministry.
Romans 11:29 “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
“Just because C3 Church restored him does not make him a Hillsong pastor!!”
You constantly focus on even the minutest details, while ignoring the big picture and ignoring the important things.
You’re like… “Who cares if victims were hurt, who cares if Brian lied, who cares if Hillsong is a big lie, who cares if Hillsong Church Watch makes 100% effort to get things right, who cares, who cares????? All I David care about is Mesiti isn’t a Hillsong pastor anymore.”
Nobody cares what you ‘think’ David. You are a blind being led by blind guides.
Hi Guys,
I posted a comment about three hours ago regarding Pat I was just wondering if you were going to post it? Incidentally I’m reading your recent post regarding Brian I’m glad you have taken some of the things I have said seriously. Trust me I’m taking everything you write on board, I appreciate it’s a two way street.
Cheers,
Dave
@ David – you state “I’m glad you have taken some of the things I have said seriously”
Not sure what you mean by that statement, could you clarify?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
sexual sin is always the thing that brings most church leaders and pastors down. yet they cover it up and start again.
i know of a pastor in the church who was sacked for having an affair with another woman. he was married with children. they are very strict on this in the uk.
in america and australia, pastors can get back into ministry once they fall down they get back up.
We hope you’re writing to all the media outlets for reporting the court’s PUBLIC findings as well, Sandy.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
sem prini
I was there at Hillsong church when Brian asked all the visitors to leave because he had to make a serious church announcement. The announcement was that Pat was being fired and stood down because of moral failure. The notion that he wasn’t fired by Brian is absurd. Another example of a critic twisting the truth to suit there negative agenda. Pat was fired and is not currently employed by Hillsong nor is he a Hillsong pastor.
“Another example of a critic twisting the truth to suit there negative agenda. Pat was fired and is not currently employed by Hillsong nor is he a Hillsong pastor.”
It was a comment by a reader, not an article David. Their opinion, your opinion.
We know he was stood down.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch
Guess what David? Some of us were there (at C3) when he was restored AND endorsed by Brian Houston. And nobody was asked to leave.
“The notion that he wasn’t fired by Brian is absurd.”
Absurd??? As is most of what you say David.
“Another example of a critic twisting the truth to suit there negative agenda.”
Negative agenda???? You are so full of yourself. You have twisted the truth about Brian and how he has treated the victims so much its beyond belief. You are not just a typical hillsong cultist. You are a completely ridiculous hillsong fanatic.
“Another example of a critic twisting the truth to suit there negative agenda.”
Not true david. You do not need to twist things to pull a negative agenda from something that is already negative.
brian houston is already a big big negative, why would you expect any positive agenda to come from any serious study on him???
Anyone who looks at brian houston —objectively— without your subjective rose glasses will always draw the —same— conclusions. it will be always negative conclusions about brian houston.
“Guess what David? Some of us were there (at C3) when he was restored AND endorsed by Brian Houston. And nobody was asked to leave”
I’m not disputing this !!!! I’m disputing the fact that he is currently a pastor at Hillsong Church as you claim. That’s my ONLY point.
“I’m not disputing this !!!! I’m disputing the fact that he is currently a pastor at Hillsong Church as you claim. That’s my ONLY point.”
No. You dispute the truth. You are another hillsong person who hates truth and loves any lies hillsong will tell you. You swallow them like vitamins.
“I’m not disputing this !!!! I’m disputing the fact that he is currently a pastor at Hillsong Church as you claim. That’s my ONLY point.”
Youre a completely ridiculous hillsong fanatic focusing on the strangest details. who hates truth so he can love this worldly faux-church led by an of-this-world faux-pastor.
Pranu
“Youre a completely ridiculous hillsong fanatic focusing on the strangest details. who hates truth so he can love this worldly faux-church led by an of-this-world faux-pastor”
Resorting to ad hominem arguments I see. I won’t respond because discussions are never resolved when they are based on personal attacks. Try and keep the issues the issues…
“… discussions are never resolved when they are based on personal attacks.”
We post an article – and what do you? You don’t address the article – you call us (ChurchWatch), a liar. Does that mean you did not come here to resolve anything but destroy our credibility with your personal attacks?
“Resorting to ad hominem arguments I see.”
you reduce everything I say down to this?
No You won’t respond to most of peoples comments because you cant. As notice in my link it —clearly— showed hillsong — corporation — not a church selling pat mesiti on their dvd’.s. You cannot accept fact that Mesiti is still just another businessman conducting business at hillsong —marketplace —. because that doesnt fit your perfect little rose glasses belief system.
“Try and keep the issues the issues…”
One of the issues has been lack of compensation and — dignity — from brian houston to the victims.
but it is you who keep switching it back to things like this ‘churchwatch lied because pat mesiti isnt a hillsong pastor’.
so Who is it not focusing on the real issues now there chief?
What about brian houston’s lies?? arent those an issue?? in fact THE real issue??
What about what the royal commission said about brian?? that doesnt seem to be much of an issue with you.
The only ‘issues’ you care about are the minute ones stuck inside your head unfortunately.
As someone who has mostly lived in regional towns (therefore in the past “only” attended churches that were VERY pro-Hillsong, both teaching style AND music), I have a question for distant past, recent past and current Hillsong attendees:
1. Are ALL Hillsong churches large i.e. too large for one pastor to know church attendees (acquaintance level minimum) Yes or NO?
2. In large Hillsong churches (1000+), what exactly is the pastor’s role? Do they ever do anything with the average Joe (non-celebrity, small tithes/ donations due to average wage) e.g. visit sick Hillsong church members, do marriage counselling, on street evangelism, bible studies with average Joes/ Janes etc – YES or NO?
3. If yes, how much time is spent with average Joe compared to people in church ministry?
4. If no, who does that type of church ministry for the average Joe? Do lower-ranking church leaders e.g. deacons do the traditional jobs of the pastor – YES or NO?
Thinker
“Are ALL Hillsong churches large i.e. too large for one pastor to know church attendees (acquaintance level minimum) Yes or NO?”
Yes all HS churches are large I would say to large for one person to know everyone.
2. In large Hillsong churches (1000+), what exactly is the pastor’s role? Do they ever do anything with the average Joe (non-celebrity, small tithes/ donations due to average wage) e.g. visit sick Hillsong church members, do marriage counselling, on street evangelism, bible studies with average Joes/ Janes etc – YES or NO?
Yes they do all the above – Hillsong Australia has employed 400+ pastors for mid week pastoral activities. Weddings, Counselling, Hospital Vists etc. The head pastor can’t get across everyone and everything hence thee need for 400+ employed pastors. If you need to speak to a Hillsong pastor you can approach the Church a pastor will be provided.
3. If yes, how much time is spent with average Joe compared to people in church ministry?
The division of time is equal, time spent with someone has nothing to do with status,wealth etc. Also alot of time is spent with non church members with outreach activities.
4. If no, who does that type of church ministry for the average Joe? Do lower-ranking church leaders e.g. deacons do the traditional jobs of the pastor – YES or NO?
Answered above..
“The head pastor can’t get across everyone and everything hence thee need for 400+ employed pastors.”
IMO this is where the lines become blurred, a “you say pot-AY-toe, I say pot- AH-toe” situation:
do you see that it can be argued that *in practice* in many churches the HEAD pastor is in fact the SPEAKER (the one giving verbal messages to that church/ big seminars/ concerts), not the PASTOR (the ones giving the ministry/ ministries to the average Christian attending that one particular church)?
N.B. Not saying this issue is limited to Hillsong at all. Many non-Charismatic churches internationally have adopted the same business model. The church leader of a successful seeker-sensitive church is the CEO, not the shepherd.
Sad to say BAPTIST churches in the USA have been amongst the worst offenders. Rick Warren set the standard there RE changing marketing strategies and sales pitch to attract new converts *translation* customers.
First entry in good series on role of shepherds in the modern church: http://www.gty.org/blog/B160222/the-absence-of-shepherds
Thinker
“do you see that it can be argued that *in practice* in many churches the HEAD pastor is in fact the SPEAKER (the one giving verbal messages to that church/ big seminars/ concerts), not the PASTOR (the ones giving the ministry/ ministries to the average Christian attending that one particular church)?”
I can see how it could be argued that way, although I’m not sure what the alternative is. If you have a large Church with thousands, one person can’t get across everyone so it makes sense to employ more pastors to cover everyone.
I’m also not sure that just because a church is large the HEAD pastor does not pastor people. I know with Brian he is called a pastor of pastor’s and leaders pastor, so he definitely still pastor’s people (everyone needs a pastor/leader) it’s just the church is so large internationally the group’s he pastor’s are pastor’s and leaders. I suppose in that sense he could be called a pastor’s pastor.
“We post an article – and what do you? You don’t address the article – you call us (ChurchWatch), a liar. Does that mean you did not come here to resolve anything but destroy our credibility with your personal attacks?”
I have never called churchwatch liars, I have stated that some of the headlines and articles are based on misleading or inaccurate information. Brian is the founder of Hillsong not Frank as you claim. Pat is not a Hillsong pastor as your headline claims, he was fired years ago.
“We post an article – and what do you? You don’t address the article – you call us (ChurchWatch), a liar. Does that mean you did not come here to resolve anything but destroy our credibility with your personal attacks?”
In all honesty I’m not here to destroy your credibility it’s just that I have read stories that I disagree with. For all I know you are not aware that some things are incorrect, so I am just pointing that out. I’m sure you want your articles to truthful and honest so if I think something is incorrect why would you not want that pointed out.
You should note that I have not leveled a personal attack on anyone even though I have been attacked many times and have been called names.
David and Thinker…
Study the NT word for Shepherd/Pastors. It’s transliterated as Poimen.
Nowhere is it to referring to a salaried, professional religious man called The Pastor.
We have One Poimen.
His name is Jesus.
He is the Great Shepherd.
The rest are false.
Lifewithpurpoise, Definition of pastor: Strong’s Concordance agrees with you.
poimén: a shepherd
http://biblehub.com/greek/4166.htm
Apostle Paul disagrees with you RE only ONE pastor overall. Read all Ephesians chapter 4 to see whole context.
Ephesians 4:11 And he [JESUS] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, ****pastors****[PLURAL] and teachers;
In 2 Corinthians chapter 9 it sounds like the apostle Paul wants Christians to financially support ALL forms of Christian ministry as *they* feel led to by the Holy Spirit i.e. much *they* want to donate to a particular ministry of their own choice (not *compulsory* tithing at least 10% wage to Christian leaders like many modern churches claim).
From highly-respected website:
http://www.gotquestions.org/pastor-office.html
It argues that elders is another word for pastor, and that pastor, elder and overseer can be used interchangeably. Remember Christians are directed to support their elders.
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
—–
I do not believe that Brian Houston is a pastor in the biblical meaning of the world. He is abusing the system. He gets the benefits of a CEO and has given all the real work to (any) real pastors still in Hillsong.
Therefore the REAL pastors (not in the media spotlight) should be getting much more of Houston’s wage. They’d probably be paid much more than they currently are. (“Prove your devotion to Hillsong by how much you donate, how much unpaid overtime you do, and how little you expect to receive from us in return”.)
Instead Houston family should be paid for their marketing skills. If Hillsong’s royal family can now fool even Channel 9 journalists the Houstons should be given credit for their REAL role i.e. ACTORS.
Mesiti is nothing but a snake oil salesman who saw how easily mislead people handed over their money in a church, and when his whoring became public he used those same principles out of church.
He could see how easily prosperity churches like C3 and Hillsong convinced people to hand over money by promising (not guaranteeing) multiples of those offerings in return. God will take your $10k (or more) and make sure you get much more in return, at some point in the future. It’s targeting greed and desperation, and I’ve seen it – the expectations on people’s faces as they’ve “planted” the “financial seed” and are so sure that some day soon they would get a financial windfall that would set them up for life and resolve all their problems. I’m sure we’ve all seen the Kong Hee video where he talks about someone selling their apartment to give to the church, and I, as I’m sure many others here have also heard pastors tell even the poorest that if they only give what they have.
It makes me so angry.
No wonder Jesus turned over tables.
I think Mesiti has played the system even better than Brian Houston. He got burned when Hillsong kicked him out because at the time Christians still expected Christian leaders who were faithful to their spouse. He learned from his “mistakes” alright (can’t call them sins, that’s too negative).
By doing business seminars only – except for occasional guest appearances in positive-message only “churches”- he gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks a pastor still gets by calling themself “pastor”. The secular media *shock horror* still raises its eyebrows when Christian leaders say/do things wrong, unlike brainwashed/ blind by CHOICE* Christians.
Therefore:
– pretend in business speaker seminars he only happens to be a super-successful (supposedly) Christian
– pretend to be a Christian leader (in churches who’ll still have him because his allies are leaders there) who only happens to be a super-successful business seminar leader.
WIN -WIN. Word-gamers can say that he’s not a pastor at a particular church, and technically they’re right. He gets the honour and paid for guest appearances as if he’s one though.
—-
* “we don’t judge EVER (except judgemental “Christian haters”, they deserve it)”
“By doing business seminars only – except for occasional guest appearances in positive-message only “churches”- he gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks a pastor still gets by calling themself “pastor”
“WIN -WIN. Word-gamers can say that he’s not a pastor at a particular church, and technically they’re right. He gets the honour and paid for guest appearances as if he’s one though”
It’s not a word game he is not Hillsong Pastor it’s a simple fact.
So I understand, are you admitting here that Pat is not a Hillsong pastor? It reads like that, I’m just looking for clarification.
Sorry thinker I thought your last post was by ChurchWatch
All the conclusions I have reached are through years of reading and listening to many different apologetics sources on lots of different theological issues.
As Hillsong and CO’s influence grows internationally there is a lot of information online about Hillsong’s history, including what Hillsong wants their supporters to forget. The internet’s memory is certainly long……..
Thinker
“I do not believe that Brian Houston is a pastor in the biblical meaning of the world. He is abusing the system. He gets the benefits of a CEO and has given all the real work to (any) real pastors still in Hillsong.
Thinker you are entitled to your opinion but I don’t see a basis for you views. As I wrote earlier Brian has a direct role in pastoring people. Not only is he the pastor of pastor’s at Hillsong he is also the pastor to some of the leading pastor’s around the world from other church’s.
For example Brian is Judah Smith’s pastor and many others. Just because he is pastoring pastor’s does not mean that form of pastoring is any less valuable than pastoring other people. Why is he not a biblical pastor just because he pastors pastors?
*A restaurant manager who no longer waits on tables is no longer a waiter unless they choose to multi-task (would have to be quiet night too !!!!)
* A husband no longer dates/ courts other women; he should not be a single man again until his wife dies.
* A mechanic who becomes a soldier no longer is a mechanic unless he works as a mechanic in the army.
* A pastor who no longer pastors (spiritually cares for the average church attendee) is no longer a pastor until he returns to being a pastor again (stops mixing with the “important people” only). Simples. 🙂
P.S. Pastor to Judah Smith too?! http://apprising.org/2013/01/09/passion-2013-speaker-judah-smith-sings-taylor-swift-and-talks-sex/
Is there ANY church representative that discernment/ Christian apologetics advocates AND Hillsong approve of *at the same time*?!!!!
Thinker
” A pastor who no longer pastors (spiritually cares for the average church attendee)”
The above is your definition not the definition, you have added average to support you argument which is false.
Also, you have not answered my question..
Why is he not a biblical pastor just because he pastors pastors? All people need pastoring…
By biblical definition, Brian Houston is not a pastor, or pastor of pastors (scripture please), by biblical definition he’s a hireling….
John 10:1-17 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
If there is supposed to be a pastor who only looks after pastors i.e. shepherd who only has to look after trainee shepherds (not the sheep), how about YOU David show chapter and verse *from the bible* in context where that claim of yours (or Hillsong’s) is supported?
But if you meant *training* Hillsong pastors instead of looking after (i.e. spiritually caring) only pastors, then what you typed makes much more sense.
In addition to ticking all the boxes on an extremely strict morals/ spiritual maturity checklist (see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3&version=KJV), a pastor who trains pastors should have A+++ grades theologically.
* He should set bible knowledge and Christian apologetics standards that trainee pastors in his denomination aspire to achieve one day.
* He should be able to defend his beliefs to atheists, non-Christians, mockers and critics equally effectively, using the bible in context.
* He should be able to explain core doctrines, how many heresies distort these doctrines and how these doctrines are proven to be false.
*He should be able to explain why he believes his church’s positions on any issue is correct, defending them via scripture/ sound theology
*He should be such a good communicator that he always says what he means, and means what he says (e.g. NO need to send out clarifying media statements for something he said during any sermon evef)
* He should show his pastors how to present the whole truth and nothing BUT the truth no matter what critics and naysayers might say in response
In short, a pastor’s pastor needs to have a BRAIN as well as a HEART for God. How do you think Brian Houston compares to that checklist David?
“For example Brian is Judah Smith’s pastor and many others.”
Judah Smith is another who has come in among the sheep to devour them.
http://apprising.org/2010/09/29/charismatic-quasi-prosperity-preacher-judah-smith/
Ps – Please note in addition to Carl Lentz, Judah Smith is another one of Justin Bieber’s “pastors.”
So Brian Houston is Judah Smith’s pastor? Yes, that’s true, we have known that for a few years now.
Brian’s “pastoring of pastors” skills was sadly lacking when Judah chose Easter/Resurrection Sunday to not preach on that blessed event but rather he determined the world needs to know about “Bringing Sexy Back”.
http://crosebrough.typepad.com/alittleleaven/2012/04/jesus-brings-sexy-back-on-easter.html
Thanks for reminding us about that relationship, David.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Judah Smith’s City Church. Another takeover by Brian Houston. Pathetic.
It’s not a takeover. Judah Smith took over City Church after his dad died. That’s called nepotism.
I know. I mean after that. Judah Smiths City Church is in the list below.
http://hillsong.com/family/
It means resistance WAS futile, they HAVE been assimilated into the community.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Perhaps David has too much pride to admit even in the face of all the facts & evidence, he is wrong.
ray e jones
“Perhaps David has too much pride to admit even in the face of all the facts & evidence, he is wrong”
I am correct. My particular argument here is that Pat as agreed by thinker is not a pastor at Hillsong Chruch. CW have made the statement that he is, this is wrong as Pat was fired by Hillsong church 15 years ago. Hillsong have not employed him again and heis not on Hillsong payroll, he is not currently a pastor at Hillsong Church, Pat hasn’t been for 15 years. Even Thinker (a critic) agrees with me. I have not seen any changes or corrections by CW.
Perhaps I am not the one with the Pride..
Thinker said the following:
“I think Mesiti has played the system even better than Brian Houston. He got burned when Hillsong kicked him out because at the time Christians still expected Christian leaders who were faithful to their spouse. He learned from his “mistakes” alright (can’t call them sins, that’s too negative).
By doing business seminars only – except for occasional guest appearances in positive-message only “churches”- he gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks a pastor still gets by calling themself “pastor”. The secular media *shock horror* still raises its eyebrows when Christian leaders say/do things wrong, unlike brainwashed/ blind by CHOICE* Christians.
Therefore:
– pretend in business speaker seminars he only happens to be a super-successful (supposedly) Christian
– pretend to be a Christian leader (in churches who’ll still have him because his allies are leaders there) who only happens to be a super-successful business seminar leader.
WIN -WIN. Word-gamers can say that he’s not a pastor at a particular church, and technically they’re right. He gets the honour and paid for guest appearances as if he’s one though.
—-
* “we don’t judge EVER (except judgmental “Christian haters”, they deserve it)”
Thinker expressed an opinion, and we have also agreed he was stood down. We have evidence of his re-endorsement by both C3 and Hillsong. How Pat chose to play out that role, was up to him and with the “talents” he sees as a gift from God, was allowed a platform/pulpit by Hillsong.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
David you got what I typed half-right. Like I said above, I believe Mesiti is a pastor, church leader or motivational speaker when it suits him that week. He changes hats. He gets all the perks and none of the responsibilities from guest appearances.
A man who is permitted to speak as if he is a pastor/ Christian leader of any variety:
* is seen by people in charge as a man qualified to do so – YES or NO?
Do you really think a God-fearing church pastor would let someone he disagreed with doctrinally?
Even dodgy pastors wouldn’t want to lose their congregation’s respect for them by having such a bad preacher that even a newest convert could tell the guest speaker was as genuine as a $7 bill/ had the IQ of a rock .
* a man with a colourful past has been given a clean bill of health by the people in charge – like self-proclaimed prophet Rick Joyner did to adulterer Todd Bentley -YES or NO? http://apprising.org/2010/06/12/rick-joyner-todd-bentley-and-the-new-apostolic-reformation/
Do you really think any type of church would let a preacher etc. speak if they thought that he was still unrepentant from his sins/ had not reconciled with the church that had rejected him years previously?
“I am correct.”
Of course you are. Just like you’ve been wrong about everything else….
The problem is you are still making the claim that Pat is currently a Hillsong Pastor. The fact that Brian gave him a second chance does not mean he was a reinstated as a Hillsong Pastor.
An accurate description would be: Pat was a Hillsong pastor he was fired 15 years ago for indiscretions. C3 and Hillsong were giving him another chance in recent years and endorsed him, lately Pat has been acting as financial public speaker and freelance pastor.
When you say he is a Hillsong pastor it is misleading, it insinuates that he is on the same level as Robert Fergussion or Donna and is employed by Hillsong and is a Hillsong representative.
This is misleading and needs to be corrected to reflect the truth.
You need to prove David that Pat Mesiti is NOT a Hillsong pastor. Why not get Hillsong to issue a public statement to resolve this confusion? All we can rely on is Hillsong’s information on this man. Hillsong have also remained deliberately silent on this issue, confirming our suspicions.
Donna? She’s automatically disqualified biblically.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
ChurchWatch
“You need to prove David that Pat Mesiti is NOT a Hillsong pastor. Why not get Hillsong to issue a public statement to resolve this confusion? All we can rely on is Hillsong’s information on this man. Hillsong have also remained deliberately silent on this issue, confirming our suspicions.”
Hillsong made a public statement when they fired him 15 years ago. Since they have not employed him again and have not sanctioned him as a Hillsong pastor there is no need to make an announcement.
99% of the press in Australia reported the story accurately with headlines like EX Hillsong pastor Pat Mesiti etc etc. So there is no need to to announce anything because the mainstream press largely got the story correct.
Hillsong typically write press releases when there is an inaccurate story circling in the mainstream media, since the mainstream media largely reported the truth there is no need for a press release.
“Hillsong typically write press releases when there is an inaccurate story circling in the mainstream media”
Don’t you mean they put out press releases to hide the truth when the media actually get something right?
Thinker
This is what you wrote. “WIN -WIN. Word-gamers can say that he’s not a pastor at a particular church, and technically they’re right”
So technically I’m correct that Pat is not a Hillsong pastor?
David, you’re starting to fall into the troll category with your own word-games. If you continue to post comments like this, you will be moderated.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Only a determined Hillsongee could manage to not understand what I typed.
“Word-gamers can say that he’s not a pastor at a particular church, and technically they’re right”
If a particular church ****in the year 2016****** has their own *****PERMANENT**** pastor/ pastors, then a *****VISITING**** pastor/ preacher/ leader at a church he is ****VISITING**** is ****NOT**** that church’s pastor (etc.) – he is a ****GUEST***** – UNTIL he is ****HIRED**** by *****that church****** and works for them ****ONLY**** (except as the church permits occasional guest appearances in OTHER PLACES )
IIf you manage to unsee what I have typed there, then you have self-installed a “Hillsong ungood word/phrase- delete, Hillsong doobleplusgood -save (no matter what) ” censoring device in your brain. No-one can help the WILLFULLY blind see.
DON’T!!!! DON’T!!!! (from academic textbook) “Frank Houston SENT…”
SEEE!!!! SSSEEEE!!!! ” son Brian to form his own church….”
What is very obvious though is david has had his own agenda since he arrived.
Less than forthright, under the guise of “I just want to help[ you correct this and that headline”, he intentionally hid the fact he’s still enamoured with the entire Hillsong LIE.
Thinker
What is a Church supposed to do when and if they get so large that the senior pastor can no longer attend to each and every church member?
Make this announcement:
Hi Church,
We have grown too much lately and too many people have have been won for Christ. As a result, we will no longer do outreach and we will not try and win people to Christ because our pastor can’t pastor each member individually.
If and when we loose some members then perhaps we can reengage our outreach ministry, until then please don’t invite anyone to Church.
As a church it’s our priority that each and every member get’s personal pastoral care from our senior pastor, it’s unfortunate that the the lost can no longer be saved. It’s our principle that as a Church we won’t hire other pastors to care for people based on our belief that it’s the responsibility of the senior pastor.
Are you serious?
David – you might want to do a bible study before assuming you know what a church and pastor are and how they are meant to function. Your ignorance is showing.
ChurchWatch
This was clearly tongue and cheek and was not mean to be taken literally. Although it does raise a valid point that has not been answered.
Instead of replying with “you ignorance is showing” why not answer the question?
What is a church supposed to if they grow too much under Thinker’s small church structure,
Why not return to the biblical model demonstrated in the Book of Acts?
Evangelists giving the Gospel and defending the faith to the unsaved (goats) e.g. in the streets.
Pastors making sure they preach the WHOLE Word of God, breaking bread and caring for the saved (sheep) in churches/ Christian surroundings.
Wouldn’t be the need for musicians to hypnotize goats into believing they’re now really sheep either.
David’s ignorance began showing the day he first arrived.
David – the internet and church community erupted world-wide yesterday in response to Andy Stanley’s words in a sermon stating “if you don’t go to a large church, you’re selfish and don’t care about your kids”.
One response from a well-grounded pastor of a small church, Dan Phillips states – “What a smug consumerist framework he assumes dismissing a church of 200 as “small.” Why not say “with only one screen,” or “not serving latte”? Other equally Biblical measuring-points.”
Transcript: “When I hear adults say, ‘I don’t like a big church. I like about 200. I wanna be able to know everybody.’ I say you are so stinkin’ selfish. You care nothing about the next generation. All you care about is you and your five friends. You don’t care about your kids, anybody else’s kids. If you don’t go to a church large enough, where you can have enough middle-schoolers and high-schoolers so they can have small groups and grow up the local church, you are a selfish adult. Get over it. Find yourself a big ol’ church where your kids can connect with a bunch of people, and grow up and love the local church. Instead, what you do…you drag your kids to a church they hate, and then they grow up and hate the local church, and then they go off to college, and you pray there’ll be a church in their college town that they connect with, and guess what: all those churches are big, the kind of church you don’t like. Don’t attend a church that teaches your children to hate church.”
To his credit Andy Stanley later tweeted “The negative reaction to the clip from last weekend’s message is entirely justified. Heck, even I was offended by what I said! I apologize.” Unfortunately this is not the first time and probably won’t be the last that he makes bizarre claims about not only church life but the bible itself ( see temple-model).
David, the reason I’m taking the time to lay this out clearly is to post an open letter written to Andy Stanley written in response to his original claim. This “open letter” clearly addresses the problems we find in these mega-movements we see today – Hillsong, C3 etc.
You really need to read this, David.
Dear Andy,
Let me tell you a little of my story.
I don’t set foot in many megachurches these days. I’ve actually been in your church twice. I normally wouldn’t have, but, well, there was this girl. Not the fiery Methodist woman who is my wife and the love of my life, but this other girl who sometimes attended, whose family had been members of your dad’s church, until, well, you know the story…
Andy, I grew up in one of those big ol’ megachurches you’re talking about, and it taught me to hate church. I would have left in high school if I’d had the option, but in my house, attendance at my cool, hip, contemporary-worshiping, youth-group-glorifying, moralism-preaching, theology-eschewing McCongregation was a non-negotiable.
So I went. Through every repetition of “Shout to the Lord,” every True Love Waits commitment ceremony, every rapture-ready dispensationalist Bible study, every sermon series on how to make myself into a good, moral, well-behaved person so that I wouldn’t tick off God and bring condemnation to America.
But I was always a misfit. Always a skeptic. Always a doubter. Always an outsider.
The truth is, my relationship with you is still love-hate.
Love people, hate being homogeneously grouped in God’s house as if I’m a first grader stuck at the slow reader’s table.
Love the Bible, hate the way it’s used.
Love worship, but hate the jesusy entertainment.
Love Jesus, but hate how we’ve reduced him to a marketing ploy.
If it hadn’t been for my college years, where I found myself in one of those “small” churches, [you know, one of those with around 200 in attendance] I might have eventually quit altogether. If it wasn’t for one of those small churches that invested in me and my gifts, where people prayed for me, where I got to know most everyone by name, I might have left for good.
Since then, I’ve attended and served churches with average Sunday attendance from around 25 to 800, but never another megachurch. In fact, I’ve got a son of my own now, so you’ll have to forgive me for being selfish, but as long as I have a say in the matter, he’s going to be going to one of those smallish churches where he’ll know everyone, and everyone will know him. Maybe a medium-sized church. Maybe even a relatively large church.
But not that large. Definitely not a megachurch.
Oh, and by the way, those kids that were so connected in that megachurch where I grew up? You know, the kids whose parents weren’t “selfish” and put them in a church with a big ol’ youth group?
A few of them stayed. A few of them got involved in those big, popular churches in their college communities.
But the majority of them didn’t. I woke up early on Sunday in a silent residence hall, carefully maneuvered my Ford pickup out of its tight space in a full parking lot. Most everyone else slept in. And why wouldn’t they? They never learned to connect. While their churches slavishly pursued cultural relevance, they made the church completely unnecessary. They have no connection to the church, no “touch points,” no lasting memories, and no working understanding of why we do what we do.
They left, and they’re not coming back. Not for all the free coffee and comfy seats and late worship times in the world.
So you say megachurches are the key to teaching kids not to hate church?
That’s not what I would tell people, Andy. Not at all. Here’s what I’d say.
Don’t take your kids to a megachurch, where the only value they see in worship is the production value. Take them to a church that teaches them the true place of corporate worship. Introduce them to a place where they learn the discipline of liturgy. A place where they reenact the gospel story through Word and Sacrament week in and week out. Take them to a church where they learn the value of stillness and silence, and where there’s also grace for them when they fail at it. Take them to a church where they learn to participate, instead of vegging out on jesusy entertainment.
Don’t take your kids to a megachurch, where they’ll never worship with their families. Take them to a place where they have opportunities to participate in worship. [Hey, Andy. How often do your church’s children’s choirs sing in worship? Oh…but your church is so good and big….] A place where they actually get to worship as a vital part of the congregation, instead of being ushered into a separate space where they’re overstimulated for Jesus by the visual media and the bright lights and the loud music.
Don’t take your kids to a megachurch, where the preacher and “worship leader” are rock stars. Take your kids to a church where the leadership are real people, with whom they can have real, personal interactions. Take them to a place where they’ll likely never hear a topical sermon series on how to control their anger or how to have successful relationships. The last thing they need is a pastor that thinks he’s a therapist. Take them to a church where Holy Scripture will be read and proclaimed by the whole congregation.
Don’t take your kids to a megachurch, where the pastor’s word is the final authority and is never to be questioned. Take them to a place where one white male doesn’t have all the answers. Take them to a place where they can safely grapple with the tough questions that arise from the complexities they see going on around them. Take them to a place where men and women serve and lead together equally. Where everyone is empowered to use their God-given gifts.
Don’t take your kids to a megachurch, where they’re insulated from everyone who doesn’t fit into their age group. Take them to a church without silos. Take your kids to a church where they are surrounded by people of all ages who love them and pray for them. Take your kids to a place where their faith is nurtured by mature believers, and where those older saints can be reinvigorated by the beautiful, budding, growing faith of a child. And take them to a place where they learn how to engage with the world around them, so that they can actually be the kingdom people they’re called to be.
Look around, Andy. Your church, [church? churches? whatever you call the North Point conglomerate] might still be growing. But most churches aren’t. And the more “mega” the church gets, the more irrelevant it becomes to the rest of the culture.
God forgive us.
It’s time to tear down the silos.
It’s time to rethink the marketing.
Andy, it’s time to be the [non mega] church.
Your Friend,
Jonathan
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/ponderanew/2016/03/03/dont-take-your-kids-to-a-megachurch-an-open-letter-to-andy-stanley/
ChurchWatch
Yes I am aware of this. Andy has since apologized “The negative reaction to the clip from last weekend’s message is entirely justified. Heck, even I was offended by what I said! I apologize”
He made a mistake, In the past I think I may have made a mistake or two as well.
David – do you even read past the first sentence in comments? We posted his apology!
“To his credit Andy Stanley later tweeted “The negative reaction to the clip from last weekend’s message is entirely justified. Heck, even I was offended by what I said! I apologize.” Unfortunately this is not the first time and probably won’t be the last that he makes bizarre claims about not only church life but the bible itself ( see temple-model).”
(This is a last sentence test, did you even read the open letter?)
ChurchWatch
” (This is a last sentence test, did you even read the open letter?)”
Yes I did see that, no argument here. I was just highlighting the apology because your post was very long and some people may not pick it up.
BTW are you guys aware that Hillsong are opening a new church in San Francisco?under the leadership of Ben Houston, it’s a plant from LA….
You don’t have much faith in our readers if you think they can’t read past the the first sentence. That might be a Hillsong problem though as they appear to have the biblical discernment of a gnat.
Yes we are aware that Hillsong is planning to “colonize” San Francisco:
http://natejlee.com/hillsong-church-do-not-colonize-san-francisco/
ChurchWatch
“You don’t have much faith in our readers if you think they can’t read past the first sentence. That might be a Hillsong problem though as they appear to have the biblical discernment of a gnat”
There seems to be a nice respectable ChurchWatch alias and a sarcastic mean and belittling ChruchWatch alias (I’m not sure how many people post with the ChurchWatch alias).
To the belittling ChurchWatch alias there is no need for mean spirited attacks, I was simply explaining myself and why I posted the quote. To the respectable and nice ChurchWatch alias where are you? I enjoy conversing with you..
The “respectable and nice” Churchwatch would to agree that the “biblical discernment” of most Hillsong attendees is very low on the scale of 1-10. Given that Brian and Bobbie can say anything that’s totally lacking in scriptural context and get a resounding “Yes!! Amen!!” from 10’s of 1000″s
Looking at that article posted with the “offensive” comment, we read a very revealing insight into the theological nouse of one Ben Houston.
“Ben Houston has pulled the age-old theological sleight of hand that has enabled all colonial destruction that has occurred in the name of Jesus: He has positioned himself in the place of Biblical Israel within the Biblical narrative, effectively positioning Hillsong Church as God’s chosen people to bring their exquisite salvation to the rest of the world, by any means necessary. It also means, to be clear, that the strategic cities of the world, of which San Francisco is one, are the Promised Land, filled with milk, honey, and slow drip coffee, destined to fall into the hands of God’s chosen people. And San Francisco’s residents, of course, are the Canaanites, to be driven out, destroyed, raped, murdered, and pillaged for our resources.
This deeply flawed theological vision is called supersessionism, and it is the reason Christianity itself lies at the very heart of world oppression. Like it or not, Christianity is the reason nations have been exploited, people have been enslaved, and communities have been robbed of their culture and personhood. It was in the name of Jesus that Europe colonized, fueled by evangelistic zeal, emboldened by the same scriptures quoted by Mr. Houston. In that sense, European Christians were utterly faithful: they certainly dispossessed nations, they certainly made cities desolate before resettling them, they certainly claimed territory, and they certainly believed, with all their hearts, that they were blessed by God to be a blessing to the nations.”
It’s seems even the emergent guys (NateJLee) can see through the deep, deep theological flaws in the steady march across continents by the Hillsong parade of “Australian Joshuas who wants to spy out the land” and take over what they have deemed as THEIR promised land.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
Food for thought, you guys might enjoy pulling this apart:
David, saw this update on Churchwatch Central.
Hillsong City Campus, Sydney to have guest Pat Mesiti speaking, 20th February 2016.
Like I said above, Mesiti’s getting best of both worlds. No responsibilities of pastor but treated like one by the church that loves the world and its worldly ways. Mesiti doesn’t even have to pretend to look after the sheep. He gets the sheep to feed him instead (via them taking his financial advice delivered “in Christianese”).
Why is Hillsong willing to have a man who committed domestic violence in Jan. 2016 to speak publically only a month later? Surely Hillsong Company can *afford* world class speakers with unblemished criminal records?
How can anyone who condemns domestic violence continue to attend a “church” that’s happy to have someone guilty of it *in Jan 2016* as a guest speaker?
Big BIG correction: just noticed 2015(!) not 2016.
Therefore obviously Hillsong is NOT guilty of turning a blind eye to guest speaker’s Mesiti’s domestic violence (as that incident had not yet occurred).
VERY happy to be wrong on that part of the matter.
Best wishes to Pat Mesiti from someone who has struggled with depression in the past. http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/03/24/15/29/counselling-order-for-nsw-self-help-author
In addition to counselling and medication Mesiti needs to REPENT from self pity, wounded pride and if-onlyism and put Christ at the centre of his life. Only that will result in the fruit of the Spirit e.g. peace, joy, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).