Are There Fascist Philosophies Behind Hillsong?

Ecclesiastical Fascism

It is essential that any Christian movement or institution is founded as best they can on the written Word of God. It is also important that they are not ignorant on church history. If they are ignorant on these essentials, society and her many philosophies can dictate and conform how the church can function.

Hillsong has been shown again and again to twist the bible at the expense of God and for the elevation of mans sinful desires. Hillsong have sadly departed long ago on this liberal scripture-twisting road and as a result, prove themselves to be no different to the dangerous churches in Germany that were socially reconstructed to suit Nazi Germany’s social agenda:

“The Church in Germany had already largely been stripped of an authoritative Bible by liberalism and then neo-orthodoxy, so the church could be made safe for fascism (other than the confessing Christians). But the Jews were seen as intractable. They had to be eliminated. They were never going to give up their monotheism.

The fascists viewed the Jews as cerebral and detached from nature and the rich polytheistic world of ancient paganism (Veith: 44).”

The attack of critical thought in the Hillsong cults are understandable when you start to understand the philosophies of postmodernity and fascism fostered within their utopian environments. Rather than preach the gospel to make disciples of Jesus Christ or make people aware of their sins, or rather than promoting members to engage critically and intellectually with their own Christian faith, Hillsong are set on targeting youth and emotionally engaging people to feel God in a socially constructed “feel-good” and “unified” environment. They purposely elevate subjectivity over objectivity.

What we are seeing is Hillsong invent their own Christianity to further the overarching vision of Brian Houston and his movement. As a result of his play-dough theology (excluding his dangerous WoF theology), he can also construct a Christianity that suits society. And this is why the below article is so important to grasp.

While enjoying a hot beverage, we hope this article can make you understand the dangerous philosophies under-girding the Hillsong phenomena.

A Biblically based commentary on current issues that impact you

Ideas Have Consequences:

A Partial Paraphrase and Review of Modern Fascism by Gene Edward Veith

by Bob DeWaay

This article will reveal similarities between the philosophies prevalent in Germany that characterized fascism and those of postmodern thinkers today. I am not suggesting that because these similarities exist postmoderns would be in favor of a new Hitler. I am suggesting that ideas have consequences and that history ought to teach us how serious they can be. The key issue is the rejection of a transcendent God who has revealed moral law. The result of such a rejection will most certainly be some form of lawlessness.

Recently, radio host and friend Chris Rosebrough called me and insisted that I read Modern Fascism by Gene Veith. Chris suggested the book because it draws a parallel between the ideas popular in Germany between World Wars I and II and the ideas popular in America today. These ideas now are called “postmodern,” a term introduced by Martin Heidegger, a popular German philosopher who became a committed fascist. Veith’s Modern Fascism unpacks the philosophical ideas that led to fascism.

This review of Veith’s book will show that the postmodern/emergent ideas that are popular today are identical to those in vogue in post WWI Germany. [Note: I also use the term paraphrase in the title, because I quote extensively from Veith’s book and explain his ideas.] I do not claim that those who promote postmodern theology are guilty of promoting fascism, but I do claim that ideas have consequences. As we examine the ideas that led to fascism, we shall see why those ideas led to horrific consequences. Once we see the parallels between those times and today we can hope that today’s ideas will not lead to such consequences. But we have no guarantees that they won’t.

Back to Nature

Postmodernism is a reaction against Enlightenment rationalism (that reason alone will get us to truth) and the sense of alienation that came from urbanization. This sense of alienation included a desire to connect with nature. Germany after World War I was characterized by a desire to reconnect with nature that included a desire for pagan religious ideas that were linked to nature. Gene Veith explains: “Because of their Romanticism, fascists sought to overcome the alienation between the human being and nature. Again, the villain was modern civilization, with its scientific technology and polluting factories.”1 This same sensibility characterizes postmodern thinking today which, as I have claimed in another work, is a resurrected version of Romanticism2 . People want to be connected to nature and to react against the Enlightenment; to do so involves making decisions on a basis other than logic and rationality. Most people would be shocked to realize that their postmodern inclinations are those of fascist ideology which led to Hitler, but I’ll develop that connection later in the paper.

Veith explains: “Whereas the traditions of the Enlightenment sought to transcend nature, fascist ideology made nature central to human life. In the words of Adolf Hitler, ‘the folkish philosophy of life corresponds to the innermost will of Nature’” (Veith: 39). The draw to nature is a huge factor in our culture today as seen in everything from political ads to those of larger corporations. Everyone wants to be seen as being “green.” This mindset prevailed in Germany during the periods between WWI and WWII, a mindset that resulted in the belief that humans and Western civilization are the problem.

Humans, it is thought, have undertaken an onslaught against nature and ancient pagan thinking is seen as a better approach. Paganism has always seen religion as stemming from nature. The Judeo-Christian worldview believes in a transcendent God who has spoken, has created humans in His image, and has given them dominion over the rest of the creation (Genesis 1:26). So what in our view is good and from God is, in the postmodern view (that of the fascists and Emergents), very bad; a thing to be rejected.

My maternal grandfather, Fred Saupe, lived in the same time period as the rise of fascism in Germany. Grandpa Fred served in the United States Army in WWI, and though he was a great marksman, he was assigned to be a supply truck driver so that he wouldn’t have to kill Germans (he was of German descent). That assignment, incidentally, may have saved his life.

After the war, Grandpa Fred became a farmer in Iowa near where his father had homesteaded in the 19th century. On that farm, where I grew up, I learned from him that nature was likely to kill you unless you used all of your wits and available technology to prevail over it. Fred was a Christian man with a Biblical worldview. His beliefs were the polar opposite of those that prevailed in Germany after WWI.

The farm reflected the Biblical admonition for humans to rule over nature, and the reality that the Fall meant that with great labor man could live off of the land. Grandpa Fred fought against possible destruction all of his life. He lived through the Great Depression. He lived through the dust bowl of the 1930s. He lived through drought, windstorms, insect invasions, and fought weeds. When I was old enough to understand the farm that Fred turned over to my father, we had everything we needed to survive: a brooder house to raise little chicks, a chicken house for when they matured, dairy cows, pigs, and steer. We had cherry trees, pear trees and apple trees, raspberries, strawberries and many kinds of garden vegetables

Lack of water was the one persistent battle with nature that Fred fought every year. Nearly every August the several shallow wells on the farm would go dry and he would have to haul water from elsewhere for his animals. So turning to technology, in the 1940s he drilled a 400-foot well. We never ran out of water again. And herbicides and pesticides helped us declare war on other destroyers of the crops.

While all this was going on in America, Germany was taking the opposite approach—that technology and Western civilization are evil, that going back to nature was good, and that humans (at least certain ones) were the problem. So eugenics became important—the practice of selectively breeding humans so that only the best reproduced. Undesirable people were forcibly sterilized, and when that proved inefficient the Nazis began mass killing. It was a return to tribalism and ancient nature religions. Veith explains: “Nature and the community assume the mystical role they held in ancient mythological religions. Religious zeal is displaced from the transcendent onto the immanent: the land, the people, the blood, the will” (Veith: 17). The idea that nature was like a goddess who would care for humans replaced the idea that nature was fallen and that humans needed to use the sweat of their brow to overcome the natural tendency for thorns to choke out the garden (Genesis 3:17). Again Veith explains: “Fascists seek an organic, neomythological unity of nature, the community, and the self. The concepts of a God who is above nature and a moral law that is above society are rejected” (Veith: 17).

The postmodern ideals prevalent in America today are identical. The primary idol in our society is nature, and many people harbor the romantic view that nature is a “mother” who will nurture us. These postmoderns consider humans with technology to be the enemies who are a threat to the nature goddess. These inclinations drive the postmodern/emergent understanding of theology.

They reject the transcendence of God, who has spoken and given moral law and will in the end be the judge of all. In His place they posit community and a return to nature. Whether these advocates know that they are teaching ideas that at one time led to fascism is uncertain. But they did. For example consider this Emergent writer:

Perhaps interest in theologies of the kingdom of God is related to the contemporary quest for holism, integration, and a sense of interconnection. My colleague, Dr. Linda Bergquist, has suggested that renewed popularity of the “kingdom” language is related to the emerging global narrative of the deep ecology movement—a consciousness and awareness that everything matters and is somehow interdependent.3

The deep ecology movement sees traditional Christianity’s understanding of man’s uniqueness (as created in God’s image and given authority over the earth) as a terrible cause of the earth’s problems. Instead it derives its thinking from pagan sources and a decidedly pagan worldview that values the “interconnectedness of all things.” In its extreme, the deep ecology movement wants to see most of the humans on the earth eliminated and balance restored to nature. Veith points to Finnish deep ecology proponent, Pentti Linkola, as one who holds to fascist ideas: “Linkola, surveying the way humanity has ravaged nature, considers human beings to be an evolutionary mistake, a cancer of the earth” (Veith: 40).

One might ask how human beings can become anti-human. In Nazi Germany the answer is that they become only “anti-some humans” – those who are not the elite, not the right race, or not fit to reproduce. It may shock many to realize that the ultimate brutality of fascism was led, not by uneducated savages, but by the educated elite. As Veith points out, “Thus fascism attracted students, artists, intellectuals, and the avant-garde. Fascists sought first of all to demolish Western civilization, so that it could be replaced with a new, organic, holistic culture” (Veith: 40). The Judeo-Christian idea that humans were created in God’s image and given dominion over the rest of the creation was seen as an enemy to the natural, organic whole. Fascists hated Jews because they were seen as the “inventors” of a transcendent Creator God who gave moral laws like “you shall not murder” that made human life something that must be protected.

Martin Heidegger the Fascist

The existential philosopher, Martin Heidegger, was a key thinker who embraced fascism, and his mortal enemy was Western civilization. Veith explains:

Heidegger’s attack on the West is repeated over and over again by his followers today, who perhaps do not realize its original Nazi context. Heidegger opposed democracy and continued to do so even after the collapse of the Third Reich. Heidegger was also an important environmental theorist, whose critique of technology—though rooted in National Socialist organicism—has been enormously influential (Veith: 41).

Neo-orthodoxy is a religious version of existential philosophy such as that of Heidegger and postmodern/Emergent theology is nearly identical to it. Its enemies are the same: the Enlightenment, Western civilization, technology, a transcendent God who has given binding moral laws, individuals as important in their own right, and humans having dominion over nature. I was amazed that ideas expressed by the postmoderns/Emergent are identical to those of the fascists. It’s sobering to think about where these ideas will lead.

One of Heidegger’s ideas very popular with the Emergent movement is the challenge against objective truth. Heidegger was influenced by Nietzsche who famously declared the death of God. Heidegger (who invoked Nietzsche in a famous address) realized the implications as explained by Veith: “If God is dead, there is no longer a transcendent authority of reference point for objective truth” (Veith: 85). Here is Veith’s analysis of such thinking:

Heidegger’s conclusion has become accepted to the point of becoming a commonplace of contemporary thought, that knowledge is a matter of process, not content. With the death of God, there is no longer a set of absolutes or abstract ideas by which existence must be ordered. Such “essentialism” is an illusion; knowledge in the sense of objective, absolute truth must be challenged. The scholar is not the one who knows or searches for some absolute truth, but the one who questions everything that pretends to be truth. (Veith: 85)

This is precisely the Emergent idea: we cannot know, but we can rebuke those who claim to have knowledge. Consider this Emergent statement: “We live in a post-Neitzschean world of faith and spirituality. Nietzsche’s declaration that God is dead still holds true, since interest in all things spiritual does not necessarily translate to a belief in a metaphysical God or the tenets and dogmas of a particular faith.”4 The new “god” who replaced the “dead” one is only immanent and has never revealed absolute truth that can be known. To find out that Emergent ideas are those of fascists is quite shocking.

So now knowledge has been replaced by questioning as it was in the philosophy of the fascist Martin Heidegger. This comes with some horrible consequences such as the end of academic freedom. Veith explains:

In the same address in which he asserts that “questioning itself becomes the highest form of knowing,” Heidegger goes on to advocate expelling academic freedom from the university: “To give oneself the law is the highest freedom. The much-lauded ‘academic freedom’ will be expelled from the university.” (Veith 86)

This may explain something I recently experienced. In debating a professor from a Baptist university about the promotion of Zen mediation to their students, I pointed out that present at the symposium were two Zen Buddhists and one Christian who believed in Zen style meditation. There was not a single traditional Christian who defended the Biblical definition of prayer and meditation. I asked why no conservative Christian had a seat at the table (I have asked that of other Christian educators) and received no answer. But there is an answer, and it is the one Heidegger explained: academic freedom must go. Once the idea about certainty concerning the knowledge of the truth is rejected, then the freedom of those who want to express the knowledge of the truth as revealed by God must be squelched. Everyone’s idea is valid except that of conservative Christians.

Heidegger’s idea of giving oneself the law meant that morals derive from the human will. Veith explains the implication: “The concept that there are no absolute truths means that human beings can impose their truth upon an essentially meaningless world” (Veith: 86). But that would apparently mean chaos with no guidance for deciding things collectively as in society. The answer to that problem is “the will to power” as understood by Nietzsche. The will to power can and does become a collective will. Heidegger spoke of “willing the essence” (Veith: 90). But he was speaking of a collective will. The “essence” is not some pre-existing transcendent truth revealed by God but something people will into existence themselves. Once it is willed, it becomes the guidance of “authentic” life. In other words, when a collection of people commonly wills something, and if they then live in conformity with that common will, they are living valid, authentic lives. Whatever is thus willed cannot be judged to be good or bad by any transcendent moral law revealed by God.

Veith cites Adolf Hitler repeating the theme of the collective will-power (Veith: 90, 91). According to Hitler, the “dominating preacher” could win the masses over to a new will, the collective one of his national socialism. Hitler’s mass rallies were aimed at that. With the moral will of a transcendent God removed, the collective will of the German society became the new moral law. If that will meant the killing of millions of people, there was no higher law above the collective will to say that anything was wrong.

Veith cites the fascist film The Triumph of the Will as a significant example of this idea. The title of the film was provided by Hitler himself (Veith: 91). The collective will of the German people is portrayed as having great mythical qualities to be lived by. Morality is to be judged by the collective will of the German people that was being clearly manipulated by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party. The God of the Bible, who has spoken, had been declared dead by the earlier Nietzsche and replaced by the collective will of the people. Thus these people were unleashed to do whatever they deemed correct—with no sense of guilt.

Veith makes two points about this. One is the practice of abortion in America being justified because of a “choice” (Veith: 37). The Judeo-Christian ethic of “you shall not kill” is set aside by the rationale that a collective culture has decided to make choice a moral value. This is fully in accord with the ideas of Nietzsche and Heidegger that contributed to fascism. Another is to point out the irony that the fascist slogan of the triumph of the will is the total reversal of Martin Luther’s great work The Bondage of the Will: “In simultaneously alluding to Luther and contradicting him, The Triumph of the Will invests Hitler with Luther’s mantle and replaces German Protestantism with the new fascist spirituality” (Veith: 92).

What consequences will come when the human will (viewed collectively) becomes the new source of morals for a society? The answer is that it could be just about anything, but it will be evil. Veith comments on Luther’s view and validates it:

If the human will is unleashed, with no external or internal restraints, Luther would expect not authenticity, not self-actualization or humanistic fulfillment, but an evil approaching the demonic. In this respect, at least, those who celebrated triumph of the will proved him right. (Veith: 93)

Whatever becomes of our current society will be revealed as history unfolds, now that the moral law revealed by the transcendent God of the Bible has been rejected. But we can expect it will be a version of evil that approaches the demonic.

The Rejection of the Value of the Individual

One facet of fascism was a characteristic called volkisch which is a German term for which no single English word has the same range of meaning. It is usually translated “folkish” but includes ideas of ethnic, folklore, populist, and romanticism. The way it functioned in fascism was a rejection of individualism. A person’s identity was found in a communal experience and communal consciousness. As Veith explains: “The individual human being is ‘nothing more than the vehicle of forces generated by the community’” (Veith: 36, 37 citing Zeev Sternhell). This is a precursor to what is now called “socially constructed reality” as used by postmodern theologians such as Grenz and Franke5 . Individuals themselves cannot read historical documents (because of language games that are communal) and understand meaning. This cuts individuals off from meaning, which is considered socially and culturally determined. They must find their meaning from being a part of the “folkish” group.

Brian McLaren uses this postmodern approach as he rejects the importance of the individual:

How do “I” know the Bible is always right? And if “I” am sophisticated enough to realize that I know nothing of the Bible without my own involvement via interpretation, I’ll also ask how I know which school, method, or technique of biblical interpretation is right. What makes a “good” interpretation good? And if an appeal is made to a written standard (book, doctrinal statement, etc.) or to common sense or to “scholarly principles of interpretation,” the same pesky “I” who liberated us from the authority of the church will ask, “Who sets the standard? Whose common sense? Which scholars and why? Don’t all these appeals to authorities and principles outside the Bible actually undermine the claim of ultimate biblical authority? Aren’t they just the new pope? 6

The rejection of the individual (“I”) is a reiteration of the postmodernism of Heidegger and other fascist thinkers. Veith comments on postmodern ideas: “Postmoderns ‘deconstruct the subject’ by attempting to show that human consciousness itself is constituted by social forces and structures of power embodied in language. The self cannot escape the ‘prison-house of language,’ through which the culture encodes itself and determines the very structure of what one is able to think” (Veith: 37). McLaren’s attack on the individual being able to understand the Bible is very much postmodern. It is also very fascist (though he would not call himself that).

The unimportance of the individual and the rejection of individual rights led to horrific consequences in Nazi Germany. Individuals who were deemed unfit to contribute to the “folkish” community were eliminated. The older understanding of “humanism” (not secular humanism) was that individuals were important and had been given rights by their creator (as articulated in the Declaration of Independence). This sort of humanism was attacked by the fascists. Veith explains: “Just as the postmoderns attack ‘humanism’ on these grounds, the fascists also attacked human-centered values, including the concept of individual rights. Since the culture determines the individual, the needs of the culture must have priority” (Veith: 37). To implement the idea of the priority of the volkisch, Aryan, identity in community Hitler held mass rallies: “The mass rallies, uniforms, and parades so favored by the early fascist parties were all mechanisms for creating group identity, giving people the experience of losing themselves by becoming part of a larger collective existence” (Veith: 37).

The ideals of the United States (at least as the U.S. used to be) are the polar opposite of those of fascism. Fascists hated Western civilization, the Enlightenment, and Judeo-Christian values. So do postmoderns of today. Immigrants to America have typically come to escape oppressive circumstances in their own cultures and to find a new identity. Thus identity here was not volkisch, but based on ideas such as expressed in our Constitution. Veith writes, “Democratic nations were based not on a cultural identity, nor on ethnicity, but upon a rational plan—such as the United States Constitution” (Veith: 38). Individuals, not certain cultures, were given rights. But fascism and National Socialism were based on different ideas: “Hitler’s racism was part of his Darwinism and his Romanticism, his desire to ground culture in what he saw as the natural order” (Veith: 38).

One consequence of fascist ideas was that once the individual had no particular rights and was important only in the context of the “folkish” culture, individuals were expendable. Genocide and euthanasia were the result. The return to paganism meant the return to tribalism. Tribalism has always meant killing in tribal warfare. Veith also comments on this:

The contemporary stress upon cultural identity is accompanied by sustained critiques of “Western Civilization” in favor of cultural and ethnic consciousness. Primitive or tribal cultures are presented as being more virtuous those “contaminated by Western civilization” and modern technology. American culture becomes guilty of “cultural imperialism,” it is argued, by seeking to destroy the cultural identity of other groups by making them assimilate to democratic values. (Veith: 39)

But individual rights granted by a constitution as well as democratic values that make it possible for various immigrants to coexist without tribal warfare has been the hallmark of America. Postmodernism was the hallmark of fascism in Italy and Germany. Now that postmodernism is the prevalent thinking in our institutions of higher learning, what do we think will happen? Whatever the consequences will be, they will not be good ones. Tribalism is a bad outcome. The “noble savage” is a myth.

Veith claims that through the mass media, the creation of a mass culture can contribute to the world becoming more tribal: “Individual differences become homogenized. The world becomes ‘retribalized’” (Veith: 149). He also says, “The goal of fascism was the creation of an organic, mass community” (Veith: 148). The idea was to surround the individual with masses with the same opinion. The masses with a same opinion, charged emotionally through mass rallies, can come to assert a mass will that becomes the new morality whatever it is. Veith insightfully writes: “Mobs tend to be governed less by reason than by emotion, less by moral restrictions and more by irrational impulses. That is why Hitler loved them” (Veith: 152). By embracing the postmodern philosophy that fueled fascism in Germany, we are setting the stage for a similar horrific outcome, whatever it turns out to be.

It is ironic that most current postmodern theologians and teachers are promoting something akin to the social gospel to make the world a better place. They would be horrified to think they are promoting ideas that led to Nazi Germany. But they are. Hitler intended to make the world a better place through eugenics (the selective breeding of humans). Margaret Sanger had similar ideas in America as cited by Veith: “Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, summarized her goals accordingly: ‘More children from the fit, less from the unfit—That is the chief aim of birth control” (Veith: 108). The connection with Hitler and Sanger goes beyond merely an ideological one: “Margaret Sanger invited Eugen Fischer, Hitler’s advisor on race hygiene, for a speaking engagement in the United States” (Veith: 108). Ideas indeed have consequences.

The End of Transcendence

A key doctrine of Christianity is that God is both transcendent and immanent (above and beyond the creation but also engaged with it). This passage asserts this truth: “For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, ‘I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite’” (Isaiah 57:15). In theological terms this means that God is transcendent ontologically, but immanent relationally. God is not contingent upon anything within the creation and totally transcends as the eternal One who created the world out of nothing. But God does providentially rule His own creation and has spoken to us through inerrant and authoritative spokespersons (the Biblical writers). God relates to us in a saving way if we are contrite (repentant) and trust in His Son, who died for sins.

Fascism is based on a complete rejection and denial of transcendence. Veith says that one of the key reasons for Nazi hatred of the Jews was that they “invented” the transcendent God of the Bible who gave moral laws. It is ironic that Hitler and his philosophical supporters understood that Western civilization sprang from the Jews, whereas nowadays most textbooks on the subject have forgotten that fact. The problem was that Hitler believed Western civilization to be an evil thing to be done away with. So do most postmoderns today.

The Bible claims that God came to Mount Sinai and audibly spoke “You shall not murder” to the Jewish nation (Exodus 20:13). That meant that the transcendent, Creator God spoke a moral absolute that applied to every individual. Fascism was inimical to any such thing: “A ‘collective and organic’ society must be based on different principles than the ‘individualist and atomistic’ ideals injected into Western culture by the Jews” (Veith: 49). The consequent of wanting to rid society of Western civilization was the intention of ridding society of the Jews:

For those who reject transcendent moral absolutes—such as “Thou shalt not kill”—there was nothing to prevent the gas chamber. There was no higher authority than the “collective and organic” society, which sought to rid itself both the Jewish people and of their ideas. (Veith: 49)

If Christianity held to the transcendent revealed moral truth that it inherited from the Jews, it became Hitler’s enemy as well. But, sadly, many during that era joined the “German Christian” movement which gained control of the institutional church in Germany (Veith: 55). Veith aptly comments: “Christianity could be reinvented, that is to say, repaganized; it only had to be drained of its Biblical and Hebraic content” (Veith: 55). There was a remnant, the “Confessing Christians” who were persecuted and killed by Hitler. The confessing Christians refused to give up the idea of a transcendent God who issued moral truth that was not dependent on the culture (Veith: 56).

Veith has an entire chapter about the church in fascist Germany (Chapter 4: “Two Masters”) that chronicles the difference between the German Church and the Confessing Church. The issue was whether or not the church would confess the truths that had been revealed by the transcendent God of the Bible. The German Christians were able to take control of the state church (Veith: 57). Veith writes: “What this meant can be seen in a research institute established by the new church government: The Institute for the Study of Jewish Influence on German Church Life” (Veith: 58). The Jews with their transcendent, law-giving God could not be allowed to influence the German church. The counter movement, the Confessing Church issued a declaration affirming Reformation ideas such as Christ alone and scripture alone (Veith: 60).

To apply the issues of postmodern, fascist Germany to today, we have to see the gravity of the choices before us. Will we deny transcendence as postmodern theology does and place “truth” in the hands of the culture (socially constructed reality), or will we confess the transcendent, revealed truths of the Bible? Much of the church has fallen asleep on this matter. The denial of the transcendence of the God of the Bible who has spoken led to horrific consequences in Nazi Germany. Now that the same concept of transcendence is being denied in most “Christian” educational institutions in favor of all things postmodern, why do we think we shall escape the logical consequences? Do we really believe that contemporary people are “good” and can be trusted to do “good” even if they no longer have a transcendent source of true goodness or a revelation of what good really is from the Creator God? Adopting postmodernity is naïveté at its worst. One definition of insanity sometimes offered is of doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result.

To repeat: ideas have consequences. Veith traces a number of fascist ideas back to the earlier Nietzsche. He cites Nietzsche and then comments:

“A table of the good hangs over every people. Behold, it is the tablet of their overcomings; behold, it is the voice of their will to power.” Moral principles are not transcendent truths (as in the Judeo-Christian tradition), but expressions of power. Change comes when new tablets are imposed upon the people, and this is done by the artists. (Veith: 119)

When I visited an Emergent convention last fall, art was emphasized. As I attended the first session, an artist was creating a drawing during the session. A video camera was trained on her so we could see the process as we listened to the speakers. There were other works of art hung in the auditorium. It all looked rather strange to me until I realized there was a theme. There was something in each picture emerging, even though what it was seemed unclear. They were using art to reinforce the postmodern idea of God’s immanence in the creation causing something good to emerge from it.

But what contemporary postmodern/emergent thinkers overlook is the sin nature. To deny God’s transcendence and then look for goodness to emerge from a process overseen by the collective community assumes that goodness will come from a collective of sinners willing as they see fit. There is no moral law that guides them to even give a reasonable definition of “good.” The Bible has been silenced through the neo-orthodox idea that the reader determines the meaning. What is to keep this group, which is creating a socially constructed “reality,” from unleashing a ruthlessly evil reality like Nazi Germany? Nothing. For now they live off of the borrowed capital of the Judeo-Christian worldview that they have rejected. The capital will soon be exhausted.


The most well known aspect of German fascism is anti-Semitism. Veith mentions two of the key reasons the Jews were so hated: 1) their association with “banking capitalism” and 2) their worldview (Veith: 43). Yes there was racial hatred as history records. But Hitler was committed to paganism, and the Jewish (and Jewish inspired Christian) Bible is the polar opposite of paganism. The Church in Germany had already largely been stripped of an authoritative Bible by liberalism and then neo-orthodoxy, so the church could be made safe for fascism (other than the confessing Christians). But the Jews were seen as intractable. They had to be eliminated. They were never going to give up their monotheism.

The fascists viewed the Jews as cerebral and detached from nature and the rich polytheistic world of ancient paganism (Veith: 44). Veith describes a popular fascist and what he had to say: “According to poet and fascist propagandist Ezra Pound, the Jewish religion began when Moses, ‘having to keep a troublesome rabble in order’ scared them by inventing ‘a disagreeable bogie, which he . . . [called] a god’” (Veith: 44). According to fascist thinking, the Jews ruined the world by inventing one transcendent, monotheistic God who was opposed to the immanent, polytheistic gods of the pagans. Veith explains how they saw the problem:

Jewish monotheism led to the decline of the mythological consciousness in which religion, nature, and the community were unified. Fascism sought to restore the values of primitive cultures, with their social solidarity, oneness with nature, and psychic integration. The iconoclasm, antipaganism, and moralism of the Judeo-Christian tradition must be eradicated so that a more holistic spirituality could emerge. (Veith: 44, 45)

The similarities with many contemporary, postmodern ideas are striking.

The Jews with their monotheism and moral laws were intolerable. They were the enemies of the re-paganization of society. Veith comments: “In other words, the Jews with their absolute morality invented intolerance; therefore they shall not be tolerated” (Veith: 46). Veith astutely understands the Old Testament dynamic that kings who did evil were to be denounced by God’s prophets—and they were. The sort of view revealed in Deuteronomy 17 that the king is under and not above God’s revealed law is the foundation for ideas cherished in the West and embodied in such documents as the United States Constitution. The Nazis wanted to be rid of such ideas, so they sought to be rid of the Jews who first articulated them. I agree with this great statement by Veith: “That a prophet could come into the presence of a king and denounce him for oppression and bloodshed on the higher authority of the ‘word of God’ was a conceptual development of the profoundest importance for Western society” (Veith: 47).

What a sorry thing it is that today the authority of Scripture is being diminished in our churches and that our society is thereby adopting the sensibilities of fascists, if not their politics. If we do not accept the moral law of God as true and binding, by what authority can we rebuke “kings”? The new morality becomes the morality of the Biblically illiterate masses who are drawn to their pagan roots. “Good” can no longer be defined.

Veith articulately describes the results in fascist Germany:

For those who reject transcendent moral absolute—such as “Thou shalt not kill”—there was nothing to prevent the gas chambers. There was no higher authority than the “collective and organic” society, which sought to rid itself of the Jewish people and of their ideas. (Veith: 49).

Christianity resists such things only if it retains the Bible as authoritative because it was inspired by the transcendent, Creator God. But Hitler found a cure for that problem: “If Christianity could not be eliminated, it could be changed. Cured of its ‘Hebrew disease’ Christianity could be repaganized” (Veith 50). Thinking about how applicable this is to what is happening today gives one chills. We think we can be repaganized by going back to the ideas and practices of a paganized version of medieval Catholicism, rejecting the solas of the Reformation, reconnecting to nature as if it were a goddess, satisfying fallen humanity’s pagan urges, and do so in the name of God—but not get any of the results that attended fascism’s return to nature religion.

The Real Problem

I agree with Veith: “The problem is not alienation from nature, but alienation from God through the rebellion of sin” (Veith: 51). The longing for a return to nature has never been stronger in American society than I see today. The term “natural” is deemed synonymous with “good” and “unnatural” with “bad.” This ignores the problems that nature is fallen, that nature is impersonal, and that nature, therefore, is not a goddess who wishes to care for us. The deification of nature common today places many contemporary Americans in a philosophical league with the Nazis. They are blinded to that fact. Our problem is not alienation from nature, but from God.

The firewall we have against postmodernism (which is a fancy name for paganism) is an inerrant, authoritative Bible. Our sin problem finds its remedy through the gospel that is revealed in the Bible. We find morals and restraint from our sinful tendencies through the law of God revealed by God through the Biblical writers. Western civilization used to be based on such ideas. That is why Hitler hated the Jews and the West. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He came in fulfillment of prophecies found in the Old Testament in such places as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. If the Christian church confesses Christ and the authority of Scripture, she shall put herself in opposition to Modern Fascism as Veith describes it. We will thus be seen as the enemies of society.

We need to do that. We need to stand on the solas of the Reformation and say “no” to postmodernity. We need to say “no” to neo-paganism and nature worship. We need to say “no” to the type of socialism that characterized Nazi Germany. The socialism of the Marxist Soviet Union was not the polar opposite to that of Germany, but a first cousin of it (Veith: 34-36). In both cases millions died. Hitler saw capitalism as a grave evil of the West, with the Jews as its bankers. We need to say “no” to every pastor in America who refuses to purely preach God’s Word from the pulpit. Those who do not are complicit in contemporary postmodern ideas just as the German Christians of Hitler’s day were complicit in the postmodern ideas that undergirded fascism. When we fail to confess what God has revealed, we fail. Period.


Gene Edward Veith’s book is more needed now than when it was published in 1993. I thank God for His providence that led me to it. The world around us and much of the church is being shaped by the very ideas that led to fascism and the Nazi party. “Ideas have consequences” (Veith: 78, 79). We are fools if we think there will be no consequences this time. I do not know what they will be. But they will be bad. Here is Veith’s description of the consequences in Nazi Germany:

If Judeo-Christian transcendent ethics place restrictions on individual behavior, they also liberate the individual socially and politically. The fascist’s ethics of immanence did the reverse—they unleashed the animal impulses, while enslaving the population. (Veith: 50)

We need to fight against these ideas using the Scripture.

Our young people are being indoctrinated into postmodern thinking in most of our colleges, be they secular or Christian. Their parents have no clue that the ideas they are being taught are the very ideas of the Hitler youth movement. The only difference is that there is no particular ethnicity that is claimed to be superior. That may save us from National Socialism, but it will not save us from some other version of it. But the idea that we need to be saved from alienation from nature caused by human enterprise rather than saved from our alienation from God caused by sin is spiritually fatal. It will lead only to neo-paganism and moral disaster.

End Notes

  1. DGene Edward Veith; Modern Fascism – The Threat to the Judeo-Christian Worldview; (Saint Louis: Concordia, 1993) 39. All future citations from this book will have bracketed references with this article.
  2.  Bob DeWaay, The Emergent Church – Undefining Christianity (Minneapolis, Bob DeWaay, 2009) 204.
  3.  Mark Scandrette, “Growing Pains – The Messy and Fertile Process of Becoming,” in An Emergent Manifesto of Hope Doug Pagitt and Tony Jones editors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2007) 27.
  4.  Barry Taylor, “Converting Christianity The End and Beginning of Faith,” in Emergent Manifesto of Hope164.
  5.  Stanley Grenz and John R. Franke, Beyond Foundationalism – Shaping Theology in a Postmodern Context (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2001).
  6.  Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, (Youth Specialties: El Cajon, CA, 2004; published by Zondervan) 133.

Source: Bob DeWaay, Ideas Have Consequences: A Partial Paraphrase and Review of Modern Fascism by Gene Edward Veith, Critical Issues Commentary,, Accessed 21/01/2014.

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74 thoughts on “Are There Fascist Philosophies Behind Hillsong?”

  1. Excellent article. I will share this with those in the Creation apologetics movements. I think though they may not want to cause offense to Hillsong, not that they ever let them speak from their pulpit.

  2. I believe that as long as people are spreading love..that is all Jesus wants. I believe Jesus could care less how strictly we are interpreting the bible and preaching it as long as the common denominator is loving one another. Love is the golden rule. Who is anyone to dedicate an entire website to ridicule another…this is also not the word of Christ.

    • “I believe that as long as people are spreading love..that is all Jesus wants.”

      What kind of love are you talking about?

      “I believe Jesus could care less how strictly we are interpreting the bible and preaching it as long as the common denominator is loving one another.”

      And that’s what Christianity is all about? “Loving one another?”

      “Who is anyone to dedicate an entire website to ridicule another…this is also not the word of Christ.”

      Not the Word of Christ? Proof please.

    • Luke 6:37

  3. Jessamine said:

    Get a life my dear!!! Who are you to sit and critise any church? If God was not behind Hillsong or any other church you might have problem with – they would fall apart long time ago…I have been part the Hillsong nearly 9 years and I know there is God behind this church and all these leaders serve God with passion. I see people’s lives transformed all the time so I suggest my dear get yourselve a better job!

    • If God was not behind Hillsong or any other church you might have problem with – they would fall apart long time ago…

      Sorry but just because something is operating still doesn’t prove anything i.e. could you say that about the Church of Scientology – its a cult and its still going

    • Poor Jessamine what a miserable 9 years you have wasted. I recently went to a wedding reception for two Hillsongers and was amazed at the selfish attitude of the well dressed Hillsongers who would not move out of their seats in the bar for the elderly parents and Grandmother of the groom who were pushed up against a wall for about 30 minutes before entering the reception room. Funny that’s all I needed to know about what sort of life style this mob is really creating. Yes its called all about me and I am superior than non followers. The respect that I was taught at an early age concerning my elders, simply does not exist at Hillsong.

    • “[…] the well dressed Hillsongers […] would not move out of their seats in the bar for the elderly parents and Grandmother of the groom […]”

      And these ignorant boors are the very people that Jessamine claims have been “transformed” by hillsong.

      “By their fruits you shall know them” – have you ever read that in the Bible, Jessamine, or did Brian Houston conveniently skip that particular passage?

    • Now until forever, Jesus I surrender said:

      @Neddie: I think Jessamine was referring to this passage in Acts 5:38-39 “And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.” (NKJV) I know the context is different with Hillsong but the principle Gamaliel (read before to understand the context of this passage if needed) is talking about still holds, I mean Christianity is more than 2000 years old now! 🙂

      @Ross: I just wanted to tell you that I have also been raised to respect the elderly and it is something dear to my heart. But as a Christian I want to be the kind of person who goes to another Christian (hillsonger or whatever else) and encourages them to become aware of these things. Becoming a Christian is accepting that we are sinners and ONLY Jesus can save us (salvation), but then He is asking us as the Church (the global Church) to love and encourage and teach each other (sanctification, which is primarily done by the Holy Spirit). Be the kind of person who teaches these Christians how to be more like Christ. You don’t know them, the education they had or why no one has ever cared to make them understand why respecting the elderly is important. We can think “if they are Christian they must have this sensibility! How dare they!“ or think “they obviously don’t have the same sensibility to this issue as I do. I can leave tonight’s reception helping them understand something important in God’s eyes, how to respect elders“.
      You would be surprise by the difference of culture between people… And I’m not saying that because I work at a refugee centre and see how respect, love, compassion, etc translate very differently from a culture to another. The culture we have been raised into can have deep implication in our lives, so let’s not judge people’s attitude, they are all still on the journey of sanctification.
      I strongly believe that as a Christian, I am called to encourage and help others to be more like Christ. I don’t want to just be there judging others for not bearing the right fruit, because they might just not be bearing them YET and I can be the one who can encourage them enough so they will one day bear the right fruit.
      P.S: you might totally agree with me and it just hasn’t appeared through your comment but I still wanted to write this because you never know who is reading this and need this reminder. 🙂

    • Hi NUFJIS,

      The book of Acts was written to give us an historically accurate portrayal how God established His Church in the Ancient World.

      Yes it’s a God inspired text – but that means we don’t apply all of it when non-believers are speaking. Galamiel was a non-believer that offered advice to the Pharisees. This does not mean we take Galamiel’s philosophy and apply it to us.

      (You don’t see Christians applying the words and actions of Goliath to their Christian life.)

      And this is also mostly great advice:

      “The culture we have been raised into can have deep implication in our lives, so let’s not judge people’s attitude, they are all still on the journey of sanctification.
      I strongly believe that as a Christian, I am called to encourage and help others to be more like Christ…”

      Because we are anonymous – we can (and do) go to Hillsong and just love/get to know people without passing judgment. Unfortunately, with our conversations (usually over a coffee), we are finding that so many confessing Christians at Hillsong do not know the gospel.

      Your advice kicks in here. If they are open, there is no need to judge. Our conversations can be very fruitful as you smuggle the gospel and encourage biblical revelations in to conversation. That Hillsonger has been given the eyes to discern right and wrong.

      And more often than not, that person leaves Hillsong, disatisfied that Jesus and the gospel is not preached.

    • Now until forever, Jesus I surrender said:

      What do you mean by “they do not know the Gospel”?

    • We mean the gospel of Jesus Christ that saves people from their sins and saves them from eternity in hell.

    • Bill Knapp said:


    • Bill Knapp said:

      amen to Jessamine – I cannot fathom why someone is set on tearing down Hillsong – sure there might some problems there as there are in other churches – basically Hillsong is Bible based, and they connect to our urban youth .. much better than our legalistic brethern,,,

    • “sure there might some problems there as there are in other churches”

      translation: “sure there might some problems there as there are in other cults”

      Hillsong is NOT a church.

      It practices and teaches occult and New Age philosophies mixed with pop-psychology, and then slap “Jesus” on top of it. Their god is liar and cannot save them from their sins.

      We are so blessed to see that the fruit of our ministry is turning deceived Christians to Jesus and not to the glorification of men and their false gods.

    • tarrick cost said:

      “basically Hillsong is Bible based”

      Actually it’s the other way around. Hillsong debases the Bible.

    • “I cannot fathom why someone is set on tearing down Hillsong…”
      Where’s your concern for Christianity?

      “… sure there might some problems there as there are in other churches…”
      you’re admitting there’s problems- what’s wrong with Christians seeking to get those problems addressed?

      “…. basically Hillsong is Bible based…”
      What’s your definition of bible based upon? Preaching a bible passage in full context or prooftexting verses to add illusion of substance to pep talk fluff?

      “…they connect to our urban youth..”
      Are those urban youth saved according to the Gospel? Why are other demographics e.g. seniors neglected by Hillsong?

      ” .. much better than our legalistic brethren.”
      When all else fails as usual a Hillsong supporter resorts to name-calling. Look at Book of Galatians what legalism really is i.e. Faith + good works (e.g. circumcision) = salvation. Christians calling for true faith in CHRIST alone, *resulting* in repentance of sin and growing in holiness are not legalists according to the BIBLE, no matter how often and how repetitiously Hillsong tries to use that label!

    • Bill Knapp said:

      so this web site and its authors has set them selfs up as judges of other christians and churches .. I am not a member of Hillsong (none in my area) – but we use some of their music … I do not know of a church without problems … however
      Hillsong is not heritical like you seem to imply … I love the fact that there are movements like Hillsong making an effort to reach out to our lost world and this generation in particuilar….. may God`s grace triumph .. not our judgemental attitudes …

    • “so this web site and its authors has set them selfs up as judges of other christians and churches ..”

      We monitor some of the biggest and most dangerous cults in the world and some of the biggest frauds. Yonggi Cho of Yoidod Full Gospel Church (someone Brian Houston, Phil Pringle and Kong Hee) look up to has been convicted for financial mismanagement. Kong Hee is currently in court for mishandling church funds up to US$40million. Brian Houston will be investigated by NSW police after the Royal Commission investigated the coverup of pedophilia in his church.

      But if Christian is represented by such lawless men AND defend their crimes, is it worth being judged by Jesus in the last days as “lawless ones”? (Matt 7.)

      Christians are called to love Jesus. And we love Him bykeeping/defending His Word. This is what we are doing. And if you think we are wrong for loving the Christian faith, Christ’s Love, Holiness, Truth, Justice and Righteousness and are upset that we are not appealing to your standard (which is depravity – “I do not know of a church without problems” ), shame on you.

      Since when is any church meant to reflect immorality in the name of a righteous, holy God? And what church on earth would want to associate their problems to Hillsong’s problems? What’s the name of your church and pastor?

    • D*ELLIS said:

      “I love the fact that there are movements like Hillsong”

      Bill, then you are part of the problem.”

      And it’s amazing you love movements like Hillsong, but do not love His Word.

    • D*ELLIS said:

      Meant to say, you love movements like Hillsong INSTEAD OF loving His Word.

      Exchanging the truth of God for a lie. Sad.

    • “I love the fact that there are movements like hillsong”

      Actually Bill, you can find more impressive movements floating in a toilet bowl.

    • We are called to teach the truth and witness in Christ Jesus name, and to expose false doctrine leading people to Hell. And hillsong is about hillsong not about saving the lost but about filling there greed inspired lives Brian Houston Blocked me for Quoting Scripture Hillsong NYC Carl lentz Blocked me for Quoting Jesus and the Bible. Does Blocking a person sound like there being Christ like? The own Desires and lusts of this world run there lives Opposite of Jesus Christ. There pride ooozez out of them it is sad they are dragging people to Hell with there false teaching of Come as you are do what thou wilt attitude towards Christianity.

    • Eyewrenchi J said:

      I was always under the impression that only Jesus and His word could transform a persons life…not a church.
      What biblical verse pray tell states that a church can transform a life? sound of crickets.

  4. Jessamine, what is being criticised on this blog is the rank heresy and bad fruit which comes from the Word of Faith movement and its proponents. If you look at the history of this movement and the very bad theology which is taught by its authors you will understand where a lot of the concern comes from. We are called to test the Spirits, not to accept any teaching which comes along and to mark those who preach a false gospel, espsecially those who very clearly live a different lifestyle to those they claim to serve. All those megachurch pastors who have the late model cars, big houses, and large salaries need to take a closer look at the way Jesus lived. If you are a pastor you are there to take a back seat not the seat up the front and higher than the rest of the congregation, living the good life based on the tithe of the congregation. These men and women are not servants, they are masters.

    As for the suggestion that if God was not behind a church it would have fallen apart, I am afraid your reasoning is not sound. There have always been false churches, false teachers and false religions. Some of them have been around for centuries. God allows evil and wickedness to flourish on this earth despite the fairy tale theologies that some hold to that God would never let his own people be taken in by evil. Read the Old Testament and you will see that God allowed his people to be taken into slavery, to be destroyed by their false idols and to be led astray by wickedness time and time again so that he might bring them back to himself after they have had their fill of evil.God reards the seekers of righteousness, not the seekers of riches.

    God will continue to give us over to our own fleshly desires, and he will also wait for us to repent of them and come back to Him and realise that wanting worldly riches and success will bear no fruit at all. What does it profit a man to have the whole world and to lose his own soul?

    And a PS to the poster who says God doesn’t care about how we are preaching the gospel I am afraid that this too is not really a good argument considering that in every epistle Paul ever wrote there is the concern about false teachers and to reject anything that is preached which is not the true gospel. Paul, Jesus and the other Apostles were all very concerned with what was taught and Paul even publicly chastised Peter for teaching circumcision rather than sticking to the true gospel and not adding anything to it. God is very concerned indeed about what is taught, and the Bible itself tells us not to add or take away anything from the Word of God. Yes, we are to love, but we are also to speak the truth.

  5. Very well said, anitameg2014. I couldn’t agree more. Proper scriptural doctrine is key to the teachings of the true gospel message; to teach a different ‘gospel’, such as many out there today, is to ‘please the itching ears’ and turn worship to our God into entertainment, is to remove Jesus as the foundation, thereby rejecting Him as the Chief Cornerstone.
    I have read and witnessed Oprah Winfrey, denounce the Cross of Christ as either a lie or useless, and she has seduced many so-called ‘teachers of the faith’ with her New Age agenda here in America, since the 1980’s; she supports many of them, and is believed to be part of the ‘Illuminati’, even supporting these ravenous ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ – who have become doctrine of demons teachers, where the enemy comes to seek whom he may devour, stealing from the flock of His sheep. All because of false doctrines.
    And unfortunately, spiritual discernment is lost on deaf ears to the Spirit, and the flock becomes immobilized, at best. And the progressive downward spiral continues from there. “Feel good” and emotion-charged sermons and circumstances, and bad fruit are all presented, and the compromised church are the results. Thus the results are damaging and not true salt and light, as Jesus and the apostles learned and taught first-hand in the New Testament.
    Anyone who does not consider gentle but firm correction in these matters, are purely emotion-charged, and need to wake up! They are blind leaders of the blind. They need fervent prayer, or if not the leaders, then their flocks need their eyes opened so that Christ can redeem them and get them to the basics of sound doctrine.

  6. As for your version of ‘all you need is love, Jessamine: please provide actual, sound doctrine with it. How have these converts in your church been discipled? Unless proper doctrine has been taught, and with the ‘love’ you mentioned is a fruit of the Spirit, it MUST contain an even amount of joy, peace, long-suffering(patience), kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control….not emotion based love within it.

    These are evidenced only by the Holy Spirit, not by all other ‘love’ ( Eros being the fleshly love- e.g. accepting any other alternative lifestyles other than marriage between one man and one woman) into the ‘Emergent Churches’ of today- which is a ‘compromising church’.
    Here is a suggestion: read Revelation 3:14-22, about the lukewarm church in particular, and Revelation 2 and 3 about all churches; these speak to the time we live in now, in the last days before the 7 year tribulation period. Let the Spirit of God speak to your heart.

    God loves you, and only the blood of Christ and His finished, completed work on the Cross is needed for your salvation. Proper doctrine helps a Christian to keep necessary perspective in a daily, moment by moment walk with the Savior.

  7. I just wanted to thank HillsongChurchwatch for this article. It is packed full of information and took a couple of readings for the full impact of this information to sink in. The Emergent church is preparing the way for the Antichrist in the same way that ‘postmodernism’ prepared the way for Hitler in Germany. As an aside, even secular feminist author Naomi Wolfe has written in an article called “The End of America: Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot” about the rise of facism in the United States. If social commentators such as Wolfe are worried, we should be doubly concerned. The church is not to be conformed to the world, yet the Emergent church is fast becoming the ‘way’ in this country. At least the U.S. has a strong fundamentalist tradition which I believe will not be shaken. What do we have here in this country? We have passivity, stupidity, spiritual laziness and deep offense if anyone dares question the questioners. Everybody is right except the Bible believers. Hillsong is right because it is a huge church with a charismatic leader who is being feted by everything worldly in the U.S., including Hollywood (Noah movie).

    Post-Modern thinking is becoming established everywhere, and as Facist Germany held the ‘church’ to ransom and forced true believers to flee or be killed, so will true Christians today be forced to make a decision between conforming to the world or staying true to the gospel.

    Whether we like it or not, Hillsong is Australia’s Emergent church poster child. I used to think Houston’s ramblings were a result of his lack of talent as a preacher or expositor of the word. Now I realise that this is a covert attempt to destablise the church and blend the profane with the holy. Most of the apologists for the Emergent church hate anyone with traditional views of the gospel. They are almost hostile in their protection of their beloved ‘conversation’. But not one of them seem to be able to genuinely define their faith other than in terms of what they aren’t. And what they are against is apparently so wrong it is laughable.

    I want to see the Christians in Australia stand up and fight against this insidious disease which is overtaking our country. In my travels I have come across so many churches which just allow organisations like Willow Creek or emergent teachers like Brian McLaren to simply sweep them off their feet in a tidal wave of apparent love and acceptance not to mention the promise of huge churches and subsequently popularity and success. It all sounds wonderful, it is a lie from the devil.

    Many friends of mine who came out of a religious cult in Brisbane called Brisbane Christian Fellowship are now following Emergent teachings simply because it is the polar opposite of the (ironically) facist control and oppression they came out of. They just want to hear that God is love, that institutional religion is all wrong and that christianity needs to be more accepting and caring. All of which is true, but as this article proves, the agenda is far from benign.

    We need to wake up and shake off the dust of apathy and wordliness and recognise that we are all being led by the nose into a vortex of utter confusion and destruction.

  8. Thankyou for that church watcher. Will check out the links

  9. Jay-

    Perhaps a thoughtfulness on what Jesus the Hillsong churches serve, and what Jesus they teach about, and whether the Jesus of the Bible, in all four gospels, sola scriptura, that Hillsong seems to miss. These teachers accept anyone who wants to join their church, by embracing the liberal stances that Christ Jesus accepts ‘all’, whether the new members are transformed in Christ, through repentance of sin- and have replaced it with a message of works-based salvation.

    Proper doctrine is key to an effective, Christ-centered church. Hillsong has, unfortunately, allowed an all-inclusive doctrine, of which Jesus own words in the following Scripture warns about, when it is not done- in Matthew 7:3-14:” Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go by it, Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Jesus expands further about this with a warning, Matt. 7:15-16: ” Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits…” Hillsong churches are teaching grace by works, not grace by simply believing that Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection are enough, and we cannot please God in our works. When a church’s leaders do not teach the WHOLE gospel to their flock, works mean nothing, it is a false and ‘man-made cult, and is a blasphemy and a doctrine of demons.

    A judgment on those who criticize or ‘judge’ others, when done in graciousness, is a strong warning to those in churches not teaching and discipling their members in proper doctrine, to wake up. Yes, we are called to do this, out of genuine compassion and God’s love. Our responsibility is to warn you to leave such abuses, and teach others proper sound doctrine. Finally, look up these verses: Matt.7:21-25.

    God’s best to you, heed the warnings of Christ!

    • ericmseidelman said:

      I’m writing this late at night, so I can’t be long. Maybe this criticism doesn’t take to heart one of Jesus’s comparisons about his own ministry and crucifixion with when Moses raised the serpent on the stick to heal the Hebrews from their infirmities. When were they healed? When they LOOKED at the snake. LOOKED. Not after they changed their ways… not after they said they were REALLY, REALLY sorry for some (ever growing) laundry list of pecados that could possibly (of course, only after discovered and expounded upon by a preacher) keep them from heaven or relationship with God. No, they looked at the symbol of God’s roaring mercy and grace, and they were healed.

      I’m not saying that is the perfect model of how God deals with people, but it does happen to be the model of salvation that JESUS uses to describe (may I say, pretty dang clearly) what his own crucifixion might someday signify.

      Isn’t salvation LITERALLY conferred, how ever mysteriously it may be, through the turning of oneself toward the crucified and risen incarnation of the Creator God in Jesus? Sure, an accurate picture of the cross is necessary. Nevertheless, THAT is where salvation happens, the “looking”, NOT in the walking.

      So I guess my point is that, as long as people are looking at the cross and seeing it for the thing of wonderful beauty is, reconciliation with God—on our behalf—then whatever else is happening really, really is secondary. That’s what Paul says, anyway. (Phil. 1:18).

      Lastly, my thoughts are that it is a ghastly dangerous thing to call people apostates or heretics, just because they embrace a culturally-influenced perspective on the Gospel. Let us not forget that NOBODY, NOOOOOOBODY has the luxury of looking at the Bible “without culture.” More importantly, there isn’t a single person who has ever practiced Christianity or the movement that occurred before it was called Christianity, that wasn’t impacted INNATELY by their culture (Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, etc). Just because people are considering different factors (e.g., concerns raised by postmodern thinkers), doesn’t necessarily mean it is Anti-Christ.

      And my final point: Just because it lines up with early twentieth-century American Christian teachings doesn’t mean it’s right. Research the origins of your “foundational” Christian beliefs, especially the social doctrines. You might be surprised how YOUNG they actually are.

  10. So judge and see them by thier Fruits then……..

    Thousands of Salvations per year, People released from Addiction, Homelessness and Poverty, and people like myself that without Hillsong would have never come to the Lord in the first place, at first i was attracted by the amazing Worship, but now i have such a deep and meaningful and purpose filled relationship with Jesus that there is no turning back to my old life

    Their whole ethos is based on “Come as you are” and this is why thousands flock to thier services every week,

    and As a Spirit filled Follower of Christ i have no concerns at all with Hillsong

    I pray that you lose the Opressive Spirit that seems to be operating within you Dave,

    I hope one day you are set Free IJMN

    • “Their whole ethos is based on “Come as you are” and this is why thousands flock to thier services every week,”

      Thanks for clarifying the apostasy of Hillsong. You are indeed exposing their false gospel and false teaching if they are promoting the “Come as you are” heresy.

      What is the gospel Jay?

  11. Jay-

    What brought you to the Lord, Jay, besides the worship?
    I have been a Christian for many years, and there is no oppressive spirit in my walk with Christ.

    So, what is the gospel message Hillsong is promoting? Please expand on it. Are the worship and pastor leaders preaching the whole gospel? What is their motivation based from? Or is the church structure one of more focus on themselves?

    Is there good and wholesome teaching and proper discipleship? There needs to be a concise, ‘Sola Scriptura’ on the five basic doctrines of Christianity. How often do they actually teach God’s Word? This is key, and needs to be personally applied, through a verse-by verse teaching. Very important for your walk n Christ.

    All the best to you- Dave

    • Oh so you don’t believe in welcoming all to church and a come as you are approach? This site sounds more like a cult, are you guys Jehovah’s witnesses or Catholics? Do you feel worshippers and congregation members need to wear a suit and tie before they can accept salvation, please let us know which church you guys attend so we can all avoid it. And please stop knocking on my door

  12. John-

    Assuming where I come from or what church I’m affiliated does no good to your reaction of emails, and shows you need God’s word and a sound argument to back yourself up for your defensivness of where you worship.

    Unless your church leaders believe in and teach John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” and teach on the resurrection of Jesus having already occurred, and giving actual altar calls for members to come forward or raise their hands, and welcome Christ Jesus into their hearts, and turn from sin, and teach on the Trinity of God, then your Christianity is based on being a good person and therefore, is not the true and genuine gospel of the bible.

    These facts are known and reported often about your leaders- and because they have not ‘known’ a real basic foundation in Christ, by teaching the ‘whole’ bible/ Word of God, their is a faulty foundation. They are preaching a false concept of who Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are, and making a lot of money off their members doing it.

    We are all accountable to God, and whenever church leaders are ‘fleecing their flock’, the Spirit of the living God will remain here, on earth, to hold such church leaders accountable ( are you such a leader there?). Be warned, and turn to Christ Jesus of the WHOLE bible, before it is too late. God loves all enough to warn them.

    Your church and teachings certainly appear as a cult- as your leaders have little accountability, and you have reacted, rather than responded, to all requests to bear witness of your leaders teaching.

    In the Love of Christ, please heed the warnings. That is what this site is about.

  13. Dpap, have you ever attended a HS church service before? because what you describe above is EXACTLY what happens, That is exactly what we experience every Sunday, starts with Praise and worship, then bible based preaching (scripture by Scripture) followed by an altar call to commit or recommit your lives to Christ and then worship just before we leave…..

    i’m really not sure where you obtain your information, This webpage? or maybe just what you hear on youtube? just be very careful when relying on social media or the internet when you judge someone’s church or leaders, Learn to Listen to the Holy spirit and maybe attend a service to get a balanced overview,

    Don’t be taken in by Satan’s trap of malicious Gossip and slander, we all beleive that all churches are one body, and we must come together and help reach the lost, the Broken and people that have never met Christ,

    It is ALL of our responsibility to bring others to Christ, and if the makers of this website actually put more effort into reaching the lost rather than unsuccesfully trying to discredit and slander another church or it’s leaders then they would be contributing to the effort rather than trying to hinder it

    • “Dpap, have you ever attended a HS church service before?”
      Some of us have grown up in Hillsong. Do you honestly think we don’t know what we are talking about?

      We just had another testimony of a Pentecostal Christian who went to Hillsong and was shocked how religiously dead and pointless the entire Hillsong facade was. Oddly, most of the critics on this site are Pentecostal or Charismatic Christians. When Charismatics and Pentecostals have issues with Hillsong and call it a cult, it is worth asking what stream of Christianity Hillsong represents.

      Give us a link to a “biblical” sermon from Hillsong, Jay. Any will do. We guarantee it won’t be biblical. If you do provide us with one – it needs to be from the minister who often preaches from Hillsong, not some upcoming pleb from the congregation.

    • Rock Strongo said:

      Hi Jay,
      I think you will find that most people on here know Hillsong better than you do. Personally I went to Hillsong for 7 years. I was once like you, denying that Hillsong is a cult and following everything that Brian and Bobbie preached. You sound a lot like I did back then, so I know exactly how you feel. I got caught up in all the hype and was blind to the truth. It’s easy to get caught up in but once you look deeper as I did and start to research things for yourself, you will start to have doubts and question whether they are following Jesus at all.

      You’re obviously on this site for a reason. Are you starting to have doubts? I would be very surprised if you have no concerns at all. I’d really like you to continue posting so we can discuss this further. If you really think their teaching is biblical, then you should have no problems providing a biblical sermon like churchwatcher requested. Provide a sermon and we can talk about it.

  14. You just need to look at the fruit of your language “church watcher” to know you have a very Oppressive spirit operating within you, i would seek a minister or a good group of spirit filled Christians to lay hands on you and cast that out, i pray that you seek help Brother and are also Set Free in Jesus’ almighty Name, and as far as “religiously dead” goes, i was under the impression that Christianity is a Faith, not a Religion, This is what Jesus came to put an end to, you guys have some serious issues, i just pray that you all get them sorted, this page is so full of hypocrisy i refuse to interact with it any more

    Please obtain some help from a minister, i say that in Love bro and not in Condemnation

    Peace be upon you

  15. I have to say that this ministry, hillsongchurchwatch, is a breath of fresh air in an atmosphere of cultic reverence and even heresy.

    If Christ’s death and resurrection are not central to our faith and how we live out our once sin filled lives differently, then why did it occur in history at all? He came to die, not to live out a long and peaceful life. He was betrayed, denied, beaten, tortured with a whip, and put to death in the most cruel way designed by a most cruel government.

    This was central to my life as well. My sins helped nail him down. My sins. I learned this so well from just a few ministers in my life, out of the multitude I have heard preach on Sundays in church or on so-called Christian TV programs or on radio. I am a sinner, saved by a mighty grace, by a mighty God who sent his only begotten Son to die for me, and I needed to hear that constantly to believe it, and fathom what it meant for me.

    I had to quit living in sin. I had to give my life totally to Christ. Make him Lord over my habits and my thoughts and all of my deeds. I drank, committed adultery, lied, stole, gossiped, I could even go on. I still fight with gossip at age 65. God has delivered me from many of these sins but everyday I fight to overcome something. And yet this life in Christ is a daily joy. The idea that Jesus loves us in our sin is not false, but truly loving him in return means turning from our sin. Daily turning our back on sin.

    If hillsong is your God, I’m sorry for you that your eyes have been taken off of Jesus, crucified for our sins that we may have life in him, not in material things, homosexual lovers (however wonderful they may be), large congregations, great “missionary” ventures, special Sunday services, anything this world has to offer.

    Yes I am a little sad that makes some good music and I can’t listen, I used to love Led Zep and I don’t listen to them now either. If Chris Tomlinson servesvupthe same pablum as HU, I guess I’ll quit listening to him now too. No big whup. I’ll gladly give up what I cannot keep to keep what I cannot lose. It just earthly stuff, after all, just like Hillsong United. Worldly. It’s here and then gone. I will live for Eternity, thanks.

    And thanks again to this website. Here in central Florida, Disney holds a yearly concert called Night of Joy. Hillsong has been included for the first time. I felt that this wasn’t good. Now I know it. God bless, many thanks and finish strong.

  16. no_false_gods said:

    i gave up all my secular cd’s awhile ago (which i dont miss)..

    theres a lot of good Christian music thats not affiliated with hillsong or any of the other weirdness..

    if i get some time later to go thru my Christian music maybe i’ll try to post some links., when i get a chance.


  17. Thanks for the information in the article. I’ve become very interested in the postmodernism of the day, and it’s history ever since I discovered Chris R. Lol
    Just a few thoughts on what I’ve read and see;
    ***The social gospel of Rick Warren, and all the Druckerites is making God palatable to the unsaved masses, by removing sin, need for repentance, man’s fallen nature and need for a savior, from their messages. This is by design.
    ***If the ministry is on TV then it is most likely heretical. 90+% of what I see -make that, saw- I don’t watch them any more, lol. Anyways, if it’s on tv it’s probably WOF or social gospel heresy. I have a theory that the only ones on TV are heretical either prosperity gospel or social gospel. They’re only on tv because they promulgate the postmodernist agenda.
    ***It isn’t a conspiracy. WE HAVE ALLOWED THEM to gain the popularity they enjoy. It’s our fault. I put that in caps because that to me is the crux of the problem.
    ***people who are taken in by these false ministries act like cult members when their leader is questioned. I was taken in by WOF years ago before the internet. I wasn’t a drooling robot, but I did think they were onto something. Whenever WOF was questioned my go-to position was that the opposition were either judgemental, old fashioned, uninformed, or just stupid. I defended them from an emotional state, and not from a biblical position. And the first reaction would be anger.
    ***I read people on here reacting much the same way, which means that something written has touched a nerve. I reacted the same way to Chris R at first, but after I thought about it I realized God was using Chris to break through to me. I see the same thing happening on this site with those who are in the dark as I was. So you are making a difference.

    I ask myself at times why people don’t wake up, but then I remind myself that I too was asleep at one time.

    And btw: to anyone reacting to me as if I’m unqualified or uninformed; I’m a spirit filled Pentacostal/Charismatic.


    • Bob – very interesting – I’d agree with 95% of what you’ve said – they are on TV because that’s the easiest way to promote themselves to the masses, without the time and hassle of international travel. of course they are happy to do that frm time to time, as long as it “pays off”…

      You also said that you don’t think it was a conspiracy – at the risk of being tagged a ‘conspiracy theorist’ I would have to disagree with that assessment. Since the mid 1960’s the Ecumenical movement, backed solidly by the Vatican, has done all it can to get the WOF money preachers into the main stream media.

      I can remember the Ecumenical Move in my home city of Newcastle, how they united people from various backgrounds – high Anglican, Catholic, Uniting Church, various Reformed and Evangelical ‘brands’, who came from far and wide under the leadership of well known, but more liberal oriented “churchmen”.

      It does seem rather odd, some 30 years later, to look back and see people who denied the veracity of the scriptures, the virgin birth, and the divinity of Christ, to all of a sudden become involved with clearly Charismatic people at venues like the Newcastle College of Advanced Education campus, for their annual conference bash.

      Liberal churchmen who used to publicly ridicule Pentecostals from their pulpits, were all of a sudden seen raising their hands, singing chorus style music (Songs of the Lamb – Suzy Wilson,) and “talking in tongues” (???) with people who they would have , in a past life, been embarrassed to be seen with in public. Seems like they were all ‘under orders’ to comply, as if someone blew the starter’s whistle, and they all ran up the hill towards the CAE together…and the reason being for all of this?

      To lull Reformed, high and low church Evangelical and Pentecostal people back into the “fold” of the Roman Catholic Institution (I can’t call it a church). Those liberal ‘hirelings’ waked in lockstep all the way to the Basilica, where thousands of priests, nuns, cardinals and bishops, were there, to ‘welcome back home our separated brethren'(a nice Vatican word of heretics).

      Make no mistake folks – history is repeating itself once more, with Hillsong, the NAR movement as well as the Emergent church, who are all marching in lockstep towards the same destination in your day, as their forbears did in mine. The only difference is that the false doctrine and immorality of these post modernist, man made organizations are no longer covered up – they are placed proudly on open display, and a fee is charged for accessing them…

    • To get good Bible based reaching on TV go to Leading The Way with Dr Michael Youssef. Also Dr Charles Stanley on In Touch Ministries. The problem with Hillsong is that they use The Message Bible which is so full of heresies. Look up internet for comparisons between The Message and New King James Bible. It will horrify you but it will make you realise why so many preachers who use it have gone off the rails.

    • “The problem with Hillsong is that they use The Message Bible”. Some at Hillsong do; most don’t. The NIV is the most widely used Bible, but also used is the NKJV (which Brian Houston uses 99% of the time), ESV, NLT, NRSV, The Amplified, and The Message.

    • Ever check out Bobbie Houston’s twitter stream? Massaging all her followers with The Message. She manages to twist it to say whatever she want to say to suit her own personal ‘revelation’.

  18. There are still a few excellent Christian men on TV. Dr Charles Stanley, Dr Michael Youssef, Paul Washer and Justin Peters. They all preach the true Gospel and their words are truly convicting.

  19. I find great ministry with Charles Price and Ravi Zacharias, both have shows on TV on a directtv channel of the National Religious Broadcasters, an NRB station.

    • Also found on YouTube, in many varieties of videos, are the great as well as the awful ministers and their tripe. Of course, a discerning viewer can get a lot of wonderful past preaching and apologetics on YouTube, so I recommend this to the techno lovers like me.

  20. The question is.. Does the Hillsong ministry lead people to salvation
    I listen to their CD’s and certainly the gospel is preached

    They encourage people to read the Bible.. The truth

    Jesus says if they are for me they are NOT anti -Christ

    • Reading the bible is one thing. Which version ?
      The bible must be understood in its proper context ?
      There are warnings given if we add or take away from the bible.
      False teachers will end up in Hell .

      Be careful of making sweeping generalisations.

    • “I listen to their CD’s and certainly the gospel is preached”

      Yes, the hillsong gospel that proclaims “You Need More Money” and “Kingdom Women Love Sex”.

      That’s the the true Gospel, which is identical in every respect to the Gospel that the Apostle Paul preached, isn’t it?

  21. Ben Newell said:

    Has anyone realised that not one quote of piece of evidence that Hillsong aligns with any of these principles is included in this? It says ‘Hillsong does this’ and ‘Hillsong’ song are doing that.

    I don’t doubt that you truly believe what this website is trying to say but seriously the people involved with this church are amazing people who love God and love People and have no intention other than to spread the gospel and see people saved.

    • Childish Tycoon said:

      I agree Ben. None of anything that is reflected on this website is what is taught there. This is nothing more than modern day Phariseeism in the Church – Lots of hearsay – no current evidence. And also, it has been acknowledged in the past that some things taught/written about have been misguided – what is a church without human error and not realising the truth like they have.

      People, if you – like me – have had a shroud of doubt on the integrity of this church – maybe try and visit and experience it. Not my cup of tea – but nonetheless does not deserve the disgusting accusations present on this website.

    • Thanks for the input “Childish Tycoon”. I guess the ex-Hillsong members who had problems with Hillsong’s biblical “integrity” have just been thrown off the bus. A good thing probably.

    • “People, if you – like me – have had a shroud [sic] of doubt on the integrity of this church – maybe try and visit and experience it.”

      What an excellent idea, Childish Tycoon! Along the same lines, if there are any readers here who suspect that sewage stinks, my recommendation is that they should dive into a cesspit to check it out.

    • “[…] the people involved with this church […] have no intention other than to spread the gospel and see people saved.”

      And the fact that Brian and Bobbie Houston have become filthy rich spreading the “gospel” and seeing people “saved” is, of course, entirely coincidental.

      Do tell us Ben: are you a faithful little tither who is doing his bit to help Brian extend the worldly kingdom that is hillsong?

    • Ben Newell – serious question to ask yourself:

      Is Hillsong church capable of preaching the whole Gospel* to save people MINUS any music, MINUS any special effects, MINUS people being in states of altered consciousness, MINUS any secular marketing strategies?


    • “people involved with this church are amazing people who love God…”

      You have to ask yourself if Hillsong passes this test.

      1 John 2:15 – Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

      James 4:4 – Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

      Personally for me, the fact alone that Hillsong has signed with WME shows they fail to pass this test.

  22. Hey,

    I am glad to see many websites starting to argue against Christian heresy. I am still not learned enough about Hillsong to make a decision against it or for it, but i am glad someone cares. I hope God leads you to post the truth whatever it is. Thanks

  23. Excuse me but regarding the ‘making money out of the bible’ issue discussed here (and in the main) what is the difference between Hillsong doing that and this very site having a line of books to the left that takes you to Amazon to buy them? Duh???

  24. Linda (or anyone who knows) what does WME as in ‘Hillsong signed with WME’ stand for?


    • ‘William Morris Endeavor (also known as WME) is an American talent agency with offices in Beverly Hills. The company was founded in April 2009, after the merger of the William Morris Agency and the Endeavor Agency. WME represents artists across all media platforms, specifically movies, television, music, theatre, digital and publishing. It also represents the NFL.’

      Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.

  25. is the most fascist website I have seen.

    “was amazed at the selfish attitude of the well dressed Hillsongers who would not move out of their seats in the bar for the elderly parents and Grandmother of the groom who were pushed up against a wall for about 30 minutes before entering the reception room.”

    And this is just a weird unverifiable anecdote. Shame!

    • Dr. Jonas said:

      “And this is just a weird unverifiable anecdote. Shame!”

      This article is titled “fascist philosophies” and it is spot on.

      In their recent article on Rosebrough’s review of Presence 2016, J. John had the *audacity* to claim God told J. John there were two people to whom ‘God was whispering’ were ‘supposed’ to give Phil Pringle $1.2M each. J. John was giving orders how Christians were to spend their money. That a fascist farce.

      You can hear it at 00:55:00 – 00:56:20 in the 2nd link. That is wickedness.

      TJ, what about these many unverifiable fascist ‘words from God’ coming from the mouths of Brian & Bobbie Houston, Phil Pringle, J. John, and their friends?

      Talk about shame, affixing God’s stamp to human errors/hunches/lies, *that* is shame.

      Thank you Team Churchwatch websites & Chris Rosebrough for exposing this extended wolfpack of Prosperity Gospel phonies, who have built their personal wealth empires off the backs of unsuspecting but very gullible Christians.

    • Dr. Jonas – in the following segment Louie Giglio appears to say that two people gave $1.2M the night before. Wickedness indeed, to claim Holy Spirit inspired “giving” (fleecing) like that. As if the Lord would bless people for giving to false teachers.

      Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.

  26. This is some impressive information!

    The scary idea that fascism is actually more about nature and the collective people instead of the individual — I always thought that was just a new-agey type of preaching. Apparently they all have roots to paganism.

    Although I have a few questions, like the devaluing of the individual and more leaning towads the collective culture?

    Isn’t that what is being pushed too much in America’s culture today, that starts to trickle down in the countries it has influenced? The selfie culture etc.

    It just seems contradicting to me that if Emergent churches are practicing or leaning towards a fascist/pagan/contrary to God’s word way of thinking would promote something that focuses on the individual.

    Unless of course they focus on individuals because it IS the CURRENT collective culture that “nature” is adapting to in our generation.

    I think what could add to the factor of this watered down practice Hillsong has is because of the abuse that a lot of (false) Preachers did in the golden days of christianity as well (Basiclally the time period before 2000). They unfortunately used legalism and used the word of God to manipulate and conform people to their agendas in a very restrictive and controlling manner that obviously stifled individuals — which looks more apparent as a fascist than what HIllsong is doing. Either that or they were blatantly a cult just like that Kool-Aid incident in the 60s or 70s,

    So it would only be practical and probably in their eyes, strategic to be more “loving” to people who are not yet believers by relating to them or associating down to their level. The problem with the old as I have researched and observed is that it is kind of “oppressive” and graceless by the standards we have today.

    Just like what one of the commenters said about some Australians leaving a very oppressive cult congregation and finding Hillsong and enjoying it because of it’s “loving and liberal” atmosphere.

    From a neutral standpoint, like a non-believer or an observer: both of them are going to the extremes of polar opposites of false teaching — the first generation being legalism/by works, the second being an abuse of grace/which is in a way also by works.

    The latter is deceived because they think Jesus broke the Law of the Old Testament but actually He is the fulfillment of the law and He is the example of how we should live by the law through His grace!

    I haven’t seen the videos of the Hillsong pastor preaching, but I am learning that Christianity is living in balance through the Grace of Jesus Christ. We cannot be legalistic because only Jesus has authority to judge, and we must learn to realize that grace does not mean we can do whatever we want — grace through Jesus is there to help us follow the law of God. God and Jesus is still sovereign and his word is not just in the New Testament but also in the Old — which is why you’re right about the part with Jews getting so much hatred from Hitler. Old Testament is purely of Jewish origins, to take out the Jews would mean that the New Testament can be a pliable tool for any leader’s agenda.

    I guess we can say that back then, they used legalism as an excuse to control masses, and nowadays with the younger generations the use grace the same way.


    In relation to fascists pushing for a paganist movement…I couldn’t help but note how concerning it is the way paganism infiltrated Christianity even before Hitler because of what Constantine did and this animated movie called Secret of Kells where the scribes, called Illuminators that translate the bible openly practice their Celtic and Wiccan roots. The protagonist kid even has a forest fairy/spirit as a friend that guided him to find this legendary item that will help him complete writing the codex or (probably) the bible we know today. By the end of the movie you will see him grow up to be a red haired (eerily) Jesus-looking figure at the front of the codex. Haha.

  27. I quit attending Assembly of God and I’m looking for a good catholic church, why there is no catholic based church in your list of “good church”