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Tag Archives: interview

Another Hillsong paedophile scandal: Brian caught lying and trashing victim

10 Sunday Jan 2016

Posted by Nailed Truth in Brian Houston's Beliefs, Frank Houston, Hillsong Associations, Royal Commission Hearing

≈ 146 Comments

Tags

Brian Houston, C3, coverup, Ferguson, Hillsong, interview, Kerri, Kerri Ferguson, lie, lies, paedophile, paedophilia, pedophile, pedophilia

If you are a member of Hillsong church going through extreme difficulties, know this: you might see the other side of Brian Houston when you reach out to him with a serious problem.

And if you are a victim of sexual abuse in Hillsong, know that the world has more compassion for you than Hillsong leadership.

Late last year, Kerri Ferguson was interviewed by Chris Rosebrough from Fighting for the Faith. She gave an horrific story detailing the poor behaviour of pastors Gary Dench, Ian Treacy, Phil Pringle and Brian Houston.

Continue reading →

Transcript of Brian Houston’s ‘nice’ interview with Mark & Grace Driscoll

14 Tuesday Jul 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Hillsong Conference

≈ 32 Comments

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Brian, Brian Houston, crocodile tears, Driscoll, Grace Dirscoll, Grace Driscoll, Hillsong, Hillsong Conference 2014, Hillsong Conference 2015, hillsong conference scandal, houston, interview, kangaroo court, lie, lies, manipulation, Mark Driscoll, scandal

We have decided to transcribe the interview between Brian Houston and Mark/Grace Driscoll that was aired at Hillsong Conference 2015. Brian Houston stated that he talked with Mark and Grace Driscoll for “an hour and fifty three minutes” but managed to edit the interview to be “fifty minutes” long. So we would greatly appreciate it if people can help fix any errors or fill in words or phrases that we could not understand. To listen to the audio of this interview – click here.

CROCODILE TEARS IN A KANGAROO COURT

Brian Houston has given Driscoll a platform to repackage, re-market and re-launch as a Pastor on the preaching network. The result was a one-sided, orchestrated, kangaroo court where Driscoll elicited sympathy and support.

We called it all right. Driscoll played the victim card at Hillsong Conference 2015.

Before reading the interview, we would emphatically encourage you read to read the below article, researching all the things Mark Driscoll has done to people in his church. Does Mark Driscoll come across as someone who qualifies the biblical requirements of “pastor” in Titus and 1 & 2 Timothy?

You know something is wrong with Driscoll when he is invited to speak at Hillsong Conference…

We believe with certainty that Brian Houston’s interview with Mark and Grace Driscoll was crafted to rebuttal the negative media attention. How did we come to this conclusion? If you re-listen to Sunrise and Lateline’s broadcasts concerning Mark Driscoll coming to speak at the Hillsong Conference, both make mention of his derogatory remarks towards women and his bullying behavior towards staff and congregant members. In this interview, Mark Driscoll is given the opportunity to clarify and apologize for his misogynistic messages along with his abusive attitude.

So what’s the problem? What if you were told that Mark Driscoll misused church funds to buy his way onto the New York Times Best Seller’s List? What if you were told that several of Mark Driscoll’s books contained plagiarized material? What if you were told that on page 105 of Mark Driscoll’s book, “Vintage Church,” he wrote, “plagiarism… subverts God’s work in and through you…If you use the work of others, you are not a teacher, and you should quit your job and go do anything but speak?” What if you were told that Mark Driscoll was teaching young pastors to throw people “off the bus” and “run them over” if they didn’t get behind their visions? (“I believe in blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus [sycophantic laughter] and by God’s grace there’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done.”)

After reading the transcript below, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did this interview shed light on any of Mark Driscoll’s past sins or only offer eye candy?
2. Why hasn’t Brian Houston called Mark Driscoll to repent of ALL the sins he’s committed?
3. Since Mark Driscoll did NOT publicly repent for any of these past sins and attempt to fix his wrongs and be up front, is he truly repentant?
4. What were Brian Houston and Mark Driscoll implying other Christians were if they did not embrace Driscoll’s crocodile repentance?
5. Where was the gospel that makes people accountable to Mark Driscoll’s sins?

What was on display was their low standard of godliness, repentance, their low standard of church discipline and behaviour towards others; and their low standard of responsibility to those they shepherd. Which doesn’t surprise us considering how Brian Houston has let leadership immorality slide in the past regarding the Guglielmucci scandal, the Pat Mesiti scandal and Brian Houston’s own personal scandal involving him covering up his father’s paedophilia.

Please consider this as you read the below transcript. Take time and ponder each of the points made and consider the implications. A lot is done under the guise of ‘nice’ in this interview.

We will offer a more deeper analysis of this interview in a later post.

Brian and Driscoll interview

BRIAN HOUSTON’S INTERVIEW WITH MARK DRISCOLL

Brian Houston: “I, uh, appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, and looking forward to having a conversation about you guys, your past, and where you’re at right now. And some of the pain perhaps, and some of the joys that have gone with your journey. And ultimately, what you see for yourselves ahead. So, welcome.” (00:01-00:19)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you, yeah, thank you for making time for the both of us we really appreciate it.” (00:19-00:22)

Grace Driscoll: “Thank you for having us.”

Brian Houston: “Great. And so you Mark, how did you come to faith?” (00:24-00:26)

Mark Driscoll: “We, uh, Grace graduated a year before me, and went off to college and then I graduated and went off to a different college and she came back to a little vibrant relationship with the Lord at that time. And, uh, she had given me actually this bible, it’s why I brought it, it’s a special Bible as a gift and I started reading it in college as a freshman and God saved me reading the Bible.” (00:25-00:48)

Brian Houston: “That’s good and so how old were you, were you then?” (00:48-00:49)

Mark Driscoll: “I got saved when I was 19 a freshman in college.” (00:50-00:53)

Brian Houston: “Good age to get saved.” (00:53-00:56)

Mark Driscoll: “We got married in college.” (00:56-00:57)

Grace Driscoll: “Before our senior year we got married in college. And, started a church community together and started teaching bible studies right away. And anything he learned he’d teach right away to someone else because we was so excited about the Gospel.” (00:57-01:12)

Brian Houston: “So now you’ve been married how long?” (01:12-01:14)

Grace Driscoll: “Twenty-five years.” (01:14-01:16)

Brian Houston: “Children?”

Grace Driscoll: “Five kids.”

Brian Houston: “Five kids?”

Grace Driscoll: “Nine, eleven, thirteen, fifteen, and seventeen.”

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, three boys two girls. We’ve been together 27 years. Neither of us was a math major.” [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “I hope the door’s not open.”

Mark Driscoll: “We’ve dated 4 years so uh, we’ve been married 23 years. I think.” [Laughter]

Grace Driscoll: “Yeah, maybe two.” [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “Those kids, those kids. So what was the journey towards starting Mars Hill?” (01:14-01:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah when I was uh, a new Christian in college I went to my first men’s retreat uh, with the church. And uh, was just getting time out praying with the Lord. And he spoke to me and said, “I want you to marry Grace, preach the Bible.” And so, I had with me [Inaudible] Bible with me at the time, “to train men and to plant churches.” And he spoke to me on those four things and to confirm that I brought that back to my Pastor. And said, “I think the Lord spoke to me,” and said, “What did he say?” So here’s what he said, “Well that sounds like something the Lord would say so that sounds reasonable.” So, um, so we felt called to move back to Seattle, we were about a 5 hour drive from the college back to Seattle. We moved back and um, interned in a church doing college ministry as a volunteer for a year or two. And then started a Bible study in our home that we taught together that was the core for Mars Hill. And uh, and then that ultimately got planted as Mars Hill church um, 18 years ago would be now.” (01:47-02:48)

Brian Houston: “So you were 25 I was 29 when I started Hillsong church. So, I felt like I was young. Well, at the time I didn’t really, but I look back now and think that’s young. So 25 is quite young, so.” (02:48-02:58)

Mark Driscoll: “I’ve made a lot of mistakes, and one of them was going too fast. There’s the Lord’s calling and then there’s the Lord’s timing. And, uh, I should have waited, uh, longer, I should have been under Godly spiritual authority for Grace and I to be under a Godly couple that was senior pastor so that we could learn and grow. And I, I, my character was not caught up with my gifting and uh, and I did start too young. And I believe God called us to start the church and he was very very very gracious to us uh. But had I do it over again I would not look at a 25 year old and say do what I did.” (02:59-03:35)

Brian Houston: “Well your heart for the church then. And what was, your, what were you really, what did you have in your heart, what did you have in mind for the type of church that you wanted to pastor?” (03:35-3:44)

Mark Driscoll: “Um, I’m a Bible teacher, and I wanted to see people to meet Jesus. Um, Seattle at the time was one of the least churched cities in America and we went into the urban core and we felt called specifically to go after young college educated males. Um, and uh, that was really my heart. I wanted everybody to meet Jesus, but I, I felt particularly uh, if we were going to make a difference in the city and in the legacy of families. And the way, you know, women and children and culture is is, is, is treated that getting young men to love Jesus would be paramount. So that was really the focus, and I didn’t think, we didn’t think the church would amount to much. The first three years we didn’t collect a salary, it was very small, we met at night, we moved a lot because we kept loosing our well locations, the offices were in our house. And so it wasn’t a big deal and we didn’t anticipate that it would become what it ultimately did.” (03:44-04:40)

Brian Houston: “So when, what stage did you start really getting attraction and momentum?” (04:41-04:43)

Mark Driscoll: “Um, well, we got a small building given to us a couple of years in and started our first morning service. And we had only done night to that point, and that went from 40 to maybe 800 in a year. And at that time the church was small, maybe 100 people, and so a lot of people got saved, massive conversions. And so, um, we had some surges like that in the history of the church, it was really amazing, it was God’s grace, we were able to baptize altogether, um, around 10,000 people. I think the majority of which were single college educated men who didn’t come from Christian families. And so, we would have seasons were just a lot of people get saved. And uh, it was just the grace of God, there’s no other way to really, uh, to really explain what God was doing, yeah.” (04:44-05:32)

Brian Houston: “So the last year obviously has been a turbulent year for you both, personally, and for your family. In fact, I’m sure more than the last year, the last three years, uh, and, obviously for your former church as well, Mars Hill. I guess the first question is how you’re both doing.” (05:33-05:48)

Grace Driscoll: “Thank you for asking. [Laughter] Um, it has been a hard year, and uh, we’ve seen God’s faithfulness and it’s the trail, we’re thankful for that. There’s been a lot of loss and we love our church, and loved being apart of it, and felt honored that God would call us to help lead such an amazing, um, group of people. So, that has been hard and watching the kids and the pain that they’ve had to, to experience in the grieving process.” (05:49-06:24)

Brian Houston: “You know, I’m totally sorry, I don’t mean to cut you off, but I totally understand that with your children. I always find that children feel things for us more deeply than we even feel, and uh, that’s always been a pastor’s son and understand as a Pastor’s kid, you know, in my own family I think maybe only those who’ve been in that situation can understand.” (06:25-06:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Well when, the, the kids grow up in the church it feels like an extension of the family. So, like for our oldest, she uh, she was born right around the time we sort of, started the church. So, all the original bible studies were in the living room and she was on people’s laps. And she was, you know, part of that church. And so she was, she was someone who grew up in the church and grew up with the church. And so you have that line as the founding family between church and family it gets a little blurred. And so when the church family transitions it leaves the kids in a difficult place. And you don’t want them to become embittered, you don’t want them to be angry, you don’t want them. I mean, even for my contributions and my sins and my faults I feel something I don’t want my kids to become embittered against me or anyone else or with the Lord. And so, we’ve been walking through that with them.” (06:47-07:44)

Brian Houston: “Alright. If I could change track a little, you’re reformed in your theology?” (07:45-07:48)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (07:49)

Brian Houston: “So, can you explain to me in two or three sentences what that means, to be reformed?” (07:50-07:58)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I, I would say it’s God centered not man centered. Uh, that the whole Bible is ultimately about the personal work of Jesus, and that when it comes to salvation it is a work that God does. Uh, and we respond to that but we don’t participate in that. Uh, I, I wouldn’t want to argue over the five points of Calvinism or get into all the details back and forth. Um, but historical protestant christianly, um, and I’d say in the past. I, uh, would’ve fought for reformed theology since it’s supposed to be a theology that’s centered in grace, fighting for it is probably not the best representation of it.” (07:59-08:43)

Brian Houston: “If I asked a third thing broad question. Obviously in recent years, you as a, as a person, as a leader, as a pastor, has become more and more controversial, and in the minds of some people, toxic, and, is there any, I mean, big picture how do you feel about that?” (08:44-09:03)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah this whole season I’ve been largely out of public ministry for around a year with a few, you know, exceptions. I have a Godly wise older pastor somebody that we really look to as a pastor in our lives he said that we need to put down the binoculars and pick up the mirror. You know, stop looking at what everyone else is saying and doing and look at yourself. And so that’s really been the focus, particularly for me, uh, but to a lesser degree for us this past year. And uh, and I think that, uh, there’s no way for me to say, uh, that I have, um, always acted with grace or with, um, uh appropriateness. There has been anger, there’s been, uh.”(09:04-09:09:49)

Brian Houston: “Were there mistakes did you ever respond with grace?” (09:51-09:24)

Mark Driscoll: “I I believe so, yes, I don’t believe every day I was a, uh, a combative, and uh, maybe uh, loud mouthed person. But certainly, um, that has been sadly, part of my, uh, ministry leadership. And so, um, and I think that can be confusing for people. Some people see me primarily as a loving, gracious person, and others have seen me as a person whose angry or short tempered or careless with words and harmful. And, and so, and so that contributes to the confusion.” (09:25-10:28)

Brain Houston: “Yeah, at the very least you become polarizing when I say because at the Hillsong Conference interestingly now that you’re not one of our speakers or even being interviewed at the conference, we’ve had some, not too many, but we’ve had some delegates who want a refund. They don’t want to come anymore because you’re not coming. And of course, there was protests and so on because you were coming.” (10:29-10:49)

Mark Driscoll: “I apologize that you were put in that position, um, that is my doing, and, and I would say-“ (10:49-10:55)

Brian Houston: “I don’t feel like you owe me any apology though.” (10:55-10:56)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, but I do, and you’ve uh, and I mean even this is an act of grace and you don’t owe me anything, and uh, and I, I, man, I hope there’s a way in the future to be a person of peace and not a point of division. Uh, and so I appreciate this opportunity to, to make an effort that…” (10:57-11:13)

Brian Houston: “Sure… You once said Mark [Applause] I had a good mission that some of my tactics were born out of anger and burned out, and I did a lot of harm and damage, what attracted a lot of attention. Um, so I guess my question is, do you feel like it’s been sort of your tactics, your message, and the message of the Gospel has been lost to the controversy.” (11:14-11:35) 

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, there were times that I uh, I drove myself to a point of uh, you mentioned some of the physical I’ve had, fatigue to drainal glands to intestinal ulcers. There were times where I drove myself to a point of not being well. And, and what that does as well as it drives your team uh, beyond their limits, and they feel unloved or uncared for. And uh, and now taking this time off, and really reflecting on all of that I see that. And I regret that and I hope whatever the Lord has for me in the future that I will draw people in and not drive people and that my empathy level will increase.” (11:36-12:18)

Brian Houston: “So so would the word bully be would’ve been an accurate description you think?” (12:18-12:22)

Mark Driscoll: “I think for sure on occasions yeah. I think, um, I think on occasions sometimes, um, strong leaders there’s a line where you’re, you’re wanting to advance a mission and you need everybody to be aligned with that. And there are other times where there is a lack of grace or empathy. I mean one of the things that’s been really helpful in this season for me is some godly older families. Pastors and their families who have opened their lives to us and we get to enter more in that grandparent season and we get to see them with their spouse and with their children and then see them on the stage and then see them with their board and see them with their staff. And there’s a, there’s a, a more parental leadership style, like a mom and a dad that love, and still carry a lot of authority and create unity.”

Grace Driscoll: “More good.”

Mark Driscoll: “But more good for the people. And um, and so, you know, my hope and my prayer for myself through all of this is then to learn how to grow in that kind of uh, strong, but parental loving, nurturing, affectionate leadership. Um, you know, and one of the things that was convicting in this more recent season we were talking through the spiritual gifts and my sons when we got to encouragement and mercy they said. “Oh, like you dad,” and uh, I thought wow, nobody has ever accused me of that, but I thought but they’re seeing it all somehow I, I do love them. And I, I want good for them and they know that, and like I said observing some of these other families that are mature in leadership how to transition that sort of parental affection into pastoral ministry.” (12:23-14:09)

Brian Houston: “You, obviously you can’t live in regret. But if you did have your time over again what would you change?” (14:11-14:16)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I mean I would’ve waited longer um, to start the church. I would’ve brought us under a godly spiritual couple and oversight to pastor us. I would’ve not went out until they said it was time. I would’ve had them service my over sighting governance. Um, I would’ve paid more attention to, uh, emotional health and well being and any bitterness in my own soul so that there wasn’t anger or hurt or defensiveness that was driving some of my motivation. Uh, and uh, I would’ve been, uh, more keen to draw grace out, um, so that we could work through some issues in our past so that we would’ve been more aligned and better friends early in the ministry. In more recent years we really worked on the friendship and we’re really close, but the early years we, we didn’t have that kind of connection that we do in more recent years. And that, that contributed to my, to my tone and my anger and affected my disposition negatively, and that’s my fault.” (14:17-15:20)

Brian Houston: “I think for me over the years my perception of strong leadership has changed dramatically. I think what I thought was strong then was probably hot head basically and what I see as strong now is coming out of a place of security, Godly confidence, knowing where you’re going. So I can identify to a point at least in your journey, and, and the truth is everyone’s made mistakes, some obviously much bigger mistakes with much more difficult outcomes than others. But anyone who has been in the ministry for any period of time and especially started young have made mistakes. Uh, I don’t feel personally like you’re on your own in that, but obviously there’s been a huge fallout from some of the mistakes you have made.” (15:21-16:10)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (16:10)

Brian Houston: “Yeah.” (16:11)

Grace Driscoll: “There’s better progression from youth and trying to control things to make them happen verses over maturing years influence and loving people through that influencing them. Um, by loving them to what’s best for them and so I’ve watched that progression and it’s been wonderful to see.” (16:12-16:36)

Brian Houston: “May I ask you the next question by telling you a story. Many years ago I knew a pastor in another part of the world who very legalistic, very rigid, very legalistic, and in that very hard on other people. And then, came to a point in his life where he made a mistake and he desperately needed people and the people weren’t there for him and he basically because a victim of his own world. You know, his own world devote. And so if I look at your world and the way you’ve ministered even publicly in your earlier years, and, you know, you created a name for your world. Um, and you feel like perhaps it was that angry world that devoured you, the world that you yourself created?” (16:37-17:21)

Mark Driscoll: “I think there, there is a measure of truth in that and I have no one to blame but myself. You can’t, um, have a certain tone or um, disposition and then when that is reciprocated toward you feel that you’re a victim. Um, so, and what’s been interesting in this too the people that have walked towards us with their hands out to love and encourage are people that are outside of our tribe. Um, there are some old friends that have stuck with us and have been very wonderful towards us but a lot of new friends too and people that, um, that we would disagree on some secondary theological issues. And uh, I have a friend who is maybe more like this person, or pastor, pretty legalistic, and, there’s a box for everything and you gotta to check all the right boxes. And he said, you know, I don’t some of these people’s theology is right. And I said, well, I think love and grace is good theology. And it’s not just what we put on paper, it’s how we treat one another.” (17:22-18:24)

Brian Houston: “I know some of the people who have stuck with you, and was that a surprise to you? Some of the people who have come and sort of just stood quietly with you?” (18:25-18:33)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, and it’s been very humbling. Um, and it’s been very encouraging and very hopeful, like, knowing whatever God has for us next these are the people that are wise counsel, um, we’re just very richly blessed by that.” (18:34-18:46)

Brian Houston: “I guess one of the, the things that you were known for several years that’ve gone by was public criticism of other pastors and leaders. And probably the first time I’ve actually ever heard of you wasn’t because of your Bible teaching or because of your books. Or, it was actually because of your attacks on other people. So I guess would that be another area where you have regrets? Or, would you still defend that?” (18:47-19:11)

Mark Driscoll: “I would not defend that. I feel like I’ve lost any right to criticize another pastor or leader. I believe that the lack of the cause made to think I knew what they were going through or what they should say or what they should do. Having gone through this very complicated season, I don’t know what I’m supposed to say, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, and I certainly don’t feel the right to tell others what they should say or do. And, um, yeah, I think going forward with the fact that some of the people that I’ve criticized have been the most loving and kind toward me. Um, it’s God’s kindness that leads us to repentance and sometimes that kindness comes through others who have no obligation to be kind and gracious because you have not been with them. And so, um, yeah, so we’ve seen, we’ve seen some remarkable grace and kindness from people that, I did not give that to them, but they’ve given that to us. And that has been deeply convicting and brought about repentance, and there’s a list of people pastors who I have contacted to call to apologize to, to ask forgiveness from. And I don’t want to do that publicly because I don’t want to cause them more drama or pain, but that has been part of the journey.” (19:12-20:32)

Brian Houston: “I’ve always had a huge personal problem with, people doing that, people criticizing other pastors even though perhaps were are different on some issues. You know, and Joel Osteen is a personal friend of mine. And so, again, one of the first things I knew about you was, you know that you talked and made a joke publicly. So when I first met you I was paranoid because the last thing I wanted was Mark Driscoll speaking against me publicly.” (20:32-21:00)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I can, I think through the providence of God I can honestly say it was a couple of weeks ago that the Lord convicted me of that sin against Pastor Joel. And so I, through a mutual friend, have contact with his team, and have asked permission to send him a private apology. But in addition to that I appreciate this opportunity to publicly apologize to him. When anyone dies they’re going to stand and give an account and it won’t be to Mark Driscoll.” (21:00-21:25)

Brian Houston: “Yeah, I just feel that life has too much to hold us all together. We can so easily build around the things that pull us apart and difference. I’ve often said at pastor’s gatherings I don’t know who your enemy is but they’re not of this room. [Murmurs] And, you know I just feel like God is big, God is diverse and none of us have all of the truth. And uh, in our hands and in our power, and so I just love to have an attitude where, sure right and right and wrong is wrong, but at the end of the day we’re all on the same side. I think if I look at our own world I think if you talked about the tone, the tone of voice, if you’d like, of our church and our minister leaders is definitely grace oriented. Hopefully it’s definitely generous not just with finance but with words and heart, and being spirited. And that’s why I guess some of that, you know that anger that’s in some sections of the body of Christ feels so shocking to me.” (21:26-22:32) 

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah and, and I think that, uh, the age of internet and social media increases that. Um, because you can make a lot of statements and declarations without relationships. And uh, I am theologically reformed in my core convictions and I am also charismatic so I kind of flow between both worlds. But um, but once Martin Luther nailed his 95 Thesis it seems like every 20 year old guy with a blog is going to try to do the same thing on the internet. You know, here’s my declaration to the world of how the church should be. And so um, I think Luther had some good things to share, guys like me and others, perhaps didn’t have as much crid to share.” (22:32-23:11)

Brian Houston: “My my flesh when it comes to sometimes the angry people the angry brothers on the, on social media is uh, obviously relatively big high platform. And often times the interview is a very small platform. And my, my temptation often is to react which is really just giving them a leg up onto my platform, and so.”(23:11-23:33)

Mark Driscoll: “I’ve failed at that many times. And it’s shameful.”

Brian Houston: “Well I have to admit I’m ashamed when it happens.”

(23:33-23:42)

Brian Houston: “Good, well listen, just on the area of theology, and in the outworking practice of that theology, you’ve obviously had some time to reflect and to meditate. Is there any aspect of what you believe that you would soften or the outworking the every day outworking of what you believe you would soften from days gone by?” (23:40-24:03)

Mark Driscoll: “Just, overall a massive increase in evaluational relationships. I was talking to, as I was traveling just to go meet with pastors and learn one said, he said “your life is defined by your relationships, for good or for bad.” And uh, I’ve been journaling a lot, cause I, there are some days I’m a little brain foggy, and I don’t want to forget. I want to remember these things and integrate them into my repentance and integrate them into my life and revisit them. And I wrote that down and thought, “Yeah, I think for sure, you look at the Bible and it’s so simple but it’s so obvious. I mean, God is a relational God, Father Son and Spirit, it’s not good for us to be alone, that sin separates and Jesus reconciles and part of the outgrowth of good, Biblical thinking and practice is loving, healthy, functional, supportive relationships. And so, we’ve learned a lot, I’ve learned a lot, but that this is grace centered relationships. And so this season has been okay, relationships, what needs to grow and mature um, in me and around me?” (24:04-25:18)

Brian Houston: “So do you I guess take accountability for the breakup effectively of Mars Hill Church?” (25:19-25:25)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, I think as the leader I have to bear the lion’s share of responsibility for that.” (25:26-25:29)

Brian Houston: “So again, you know, looking at you from a distance. When I first heard about you, your theological belief about women and women in ministry and women in leadership. Uh, my feeling was, if there was one thing that was going to be a red raid to the bull to the secular media it was that subject right there. Has that proven to be the proof?” (25:30-25:55)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, the fact that I can’t even come see you in Australia indicates that you were on to something. Um, yeah for me I would start by saying that some of the misperception is entirely my fault. On some things I said and did that were ungodly, they were lies, and they were unhelpful. And it was on a chatroom in 2000 getting angry, taking a character roll fighting, very ungodly, nothing defensible, things that I’m completely sorry for and the offense is completely justified.” (25:56-26:33)

Brian Houston: “How old were you then?” (26:34)

Mark Driscoll: “Uh, I was in my late 20’s.” (26:35-26:36)

Brian Houston: “In your late 20’s.” (26:36)

Mark Driscoll: “And then, uh, had that taken down, met with the people that  I knew were involved and weren’t under pseudonyms and apologized to them. Uh, thought that it was, you know, removed. In 2006 I wrote a book where I listed it as one of the failures in my leaderships, things I had done wrong. And then in 2014 that content was reposted on the internet. I made a public apology and acknowledgement for that, um, it is one of the grave regrets of my life um, especially now that I’ve got a daughter who is a godly, strong leader. It’s just like, I can’t read some of the things that I said because I feel so horrified that I should’ve, um, [Inaudible] I wouldn’t seek to justify or blame anyone or make any excuses. I publicly want to apologize for that, I want to sincerely apologize for that and that perception of what I think about women is entirely my own fault and I have no one to blame but myself.” (26:37-27:45)

Brian Houston: “For me what was strange the stone that was being repeated over and over in mainstream media, was what is quite vulgar, it was, that, women are penis homes. The Israel women as being a home for a penis. And of course, that’s, that uh is very inflammatory. So what was going on in your own life at the time that you would say something like that?” (27:46-28:06)

Mark Driscoll: “That is not a position, that uh, what I said um, is not representative of what I think or how I feel. Looking back on that, um, that was not a healthy person working from a godly place. And so I would have a hard time explaining it I wouldn’t even make an effort to defend it.” (28:07-28:30)

Brian Houston: “The other thing that the Australian Media was showing over and over was something I had actually seen before. And it was when I think you were talking to men and you were screaming, “Who the Hell do you think you are?” So I’m sure you remember that moment.” (28:31-28:44)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah that was uh, that was a moment in first Peter where it talks about husbands, you know, be compassionate and kind and tender with your wives. And I started talking about men who abuse women. Um, I, the times that I do sometimes get angry is when men are physically sexually assaulting women. And it’s uh, and I think that pornography helps men have a mindset that causes women to be devalued.” (28:45-29:17)

Brian Houston: “So that was the context.” (29:18)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (29:18)

Brian Houston: “You were talking to people.” (29:19-29:21) 

Mark Driscoll: “To men who abuse women like men who hit their wife or girlfriend and who sexually assault or abuse that was the context that was first Peter.”(29:21-29)

Brian Houston: “But you did sound very angry.” (29:29-29:30)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah.” (29:30)

Brian Houston: “It was very passionate. And the fact again, one of the first preaching clips I’d saw of you was someone showing me that.” (29:31-29:36)

Mark Driscoll: “I yelled a lot.” (29:37) [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “So the heart behind it was good. But the-“ (29:38-29:40)

Grace Driscoll: “Yes, the desire was good, the method was not mature or Godly.” (29:41-29:46)

Brian Houston: “And again I think going from where I stand, you’re not the only one whose got the method wrong from time to time. The thing about life is, it’s long. And we, as believers, and especially as preachers and teachers we say a lot of words. Yeah, a lot of words come out-“ (29:47-30:02)

Mark Driscoll: “Paul says when words are many sin is not absent.” (30:02-30:05)

Brian Houston: “Yeah. Unfortunately you can’t pull them back again. So I don’t know of any public speaker who has done it for any length of time who wouldn’t have said something sometime that was a little silly or with a bit of regret. But it’s amazing how we can look at someone else and somehow seems worse when it’s them then when when it’s us.” (30:06-30:22)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah but then again I think if we’re fair. I you know, as you treat others you’ll be treated in kind, and so I brought some of that on myself too.”(30:23-30:30)

Brian Houston: “When it comes to women and ministry, and especially in ministry and in church life and in leadership, you would know indefinitely be taking a different stance as Hillsong. We’ve got women involved in leadership roles at most areas of church life. Pretty much in everything else women are involved. So that’s why I’m intrigued with women and where we stand on it.” (30:32-30:59)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, um. First of all, I don’t want to be critical or negative, and I hope that maybe even the way we interact on this on can um, a graceful way to set the beginning of an example for people to disagree. Um, I would say, uh, one of the primary issues of the trinity in the bible and the resurrection of Jesus and the forgiveness of sin and those close-handed matters, you and I agree.” (31:01-31:23)

Brian Houston: “Uh-uh!” (31:24-31:24)

Mark Driscoll: “On the secondary matters, they’re not unimportant but people who are going to heaven uh- disagree on those matters, this may be one that we do. I would say that uh- um- the culture at Mars Hill would have been different and better with the increased involvement of Godly women. And I think uh, at least what I have learnt today is. Uh, I believe in male and female ministry and that men and women are created equal and likeness and image of God. That they receive all of the spiritual gifts. And that when it comes to governance, in the home, a man the husband is supposed to be the humble, sacrificial Christ-like leader of the home. And then his wife and him walk together like a right hand and a left hand, complimenting one-another. And then in the church, I would feel comfortable with male governance, with male and female ministry. Um, and that being said-” (31:25-32:24)

Brian Houston: “So by male/female ministry works for certain people, what does that mean..?” (32:25-32:29)

Mark Driscoll: “Leading worship, being on staff, going to seminary, umm… serving communion and baptizing-“ (32:29-32:34)

Brian Houston: “So where’s the barriers?” (32:34-32:35)

Mark Driscoll: “I would say governance. And really what we’re down to there Brian, uh I don’t want to do this on camera I want to do this privately I’m enough of a nerd I would [Inaudible]. It comes down to like 1 Timothy 2 the second half, you know, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man and then it goes into 1 Timothy 3 where it talks about an elder. And uh, what we’re down to there is a bible study about how would you go with that and how I would go with that. What I would say, however, is uh, I don’t feel that it is my position to critique you, it is not my position to correct you. Um, if anything, I want to come into different families of churches to learn and not to argue. And to see the areas that they’re right and I’m wrong and the areas that they can teach me where I can grow, and that has not been largely my disposition up till the point. It’s been more “I’m here to teach, and I’m here to correct, I’m not here to learn and I’m not here to be corrected.” And if there’s a way for me to not violate my conscience and my convictions while also not separating my relationships I’m hoping to get to a point of doing, um, better. I’m a guy whose had a tremendous failure and it’s not looking to tell everyone else how to do it right I don’t think I have the right I don’t think I have the authority I would feel comfortable with male governance, with male and female ministry. And, yeah, and as long as the people involved are Godly I think that the details will get sorted out in the context of relationships. Alright I really appreciate this opportunity, and you probably thought I’m come out and fight you, I, I just-“ (32:35-34:25)

Brian Houston: “No I didn’t know, I probably wouldn’t have asked the question if I didn’t think you the second half of the question if [Inaudible] were in the fighting mood at all. But uh, you’re a very bright man, and I mean that, you’re very bright, you have a very sharp intellect. When I first met you you were like Google. You knew more about Australia than I do. And Sydney than I do, so I understand that you’re a learning person. I’m a simple man, so let me ask you-“ (34:24-34:46)

Mark Driscoll: “I’m an unemployed guy, so.” (34:47-34:48) [Laughter]

Brian Houston: “Let me ask you one more thing, that’s good, I like it. Just from a very simple point of view, but I kinda grew up being taught that women would be silent in church that we had a situation where the men sat on one side of the church and the women sat on the other side. While the men were conducting the very spiritual business of church, the women were, you know, if I were to exaggerate a little, submitting and talking and chatting. And that’s kind of how I was taught that you would sit totally different.” (34:50-35:22)

Mark Driscoll: “That sits totally different with me. I, I don’t wanna put my wife on the spot but we’ve raised, we have five kids our oldest is a girl. Leader, driver, um, led mission trips, raising money for international relief traveling, um, she’s a great writer.” (35:23-35:42)

Grace Driscoll: “She’s using her gifts. And we’re not holding her back from what that looks like.” (35:43-35:46)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, she won the principle’s leadership award and we hung out with the principle and she may have been the only female in the history of the school to win the award at least in the last 20 years and so-“ (35:46-35:55)

Grace Driscoll: “But it’s again it’s a condition of the heart. Her desires are not to impress men and women, they’re to serve the Lord. And if that’s in mind there’s a lot of things women can do, if that’s not in mind there’s a lot of things men and women can’t do.” (35:55-36:09)

Mark Driscoll: “So I guess we needed to delve details into what we talked about earlier like what’s a father’s heart. And I wanna have a heart for the women that in the future that allow me to be their pastor that I had for my daughters, and that is if they have leadership gifts and are called from God and they’re Godly I want to help them achieve that potential and encourage and nourish that and be a support for that.” (36:11-36:34)

Brian Houston: “So when in Australia your visits started to rise to the floor in secular Australia that word misogynistic. Uh, started being thrown around fairly liberally. I looked it up in the Oxford Dictionary and it says, “dislike of, contempt for, or engrained prejudice against women.” Are you, were you ever misogynist?” (35:35-36:55)

Mark Driscoll: “No, but because of things I have said foolishly, that impression is entirely my fault, and I have no one to blame but myself. That’s now how I feel, that’s not what I think, um, but for certain, have uh, allowed that to become an impression.” (36:56-37:15)

Brian Houston: “Sure, and those are things you said when you were in your late 20’s.” (37:16-37:18)

Mark Driscoll: “Yeah, and I have a heart to see, part of this Pastor Brian is, young men aren’t going to church, young men aren’t going to college, young men aren’t marrying women young, young men are not raising their children, and I have such a deep burden and passion to see men. You know, 1 Corinthians 13 when I was a child I thought like a child I spoke like a child I acted like a child, when I became a man I put childish ways behind me. I want to compel young men to grow up to take responsibility and sometimes in doing that I have communicated that in a way that demeans women and that’s not helpful and that’s not right and in the grace of God I need to repent and do better at that. But I still want, I mean no one would say that young men are in the western world highly impressive and we’re all encouraged. There’s a lot of work to be done. And so, I regret the times that I have not communicated in such a way trying to compel them and up and it seems I’m pushing the women down and that’s my fault.” (37:19-38:20)

Brian Houston: “That’s how you feel. You can change moving forward?” (38:21-38:23)

Mark Driscoll: “I hope to with the Grace of God yeah, absolutely.” (38:24-38:27)

Brian Houston: “Good.” (38:28)

Grace Driscoll: “I mean, I’ve never seen him as a misogynist, and never even thought that him of that at all. So, I’ve witnessed the opposite and so, and I’ve known him 27 years And so I can say yes there were methods that were wrong in the beginning but I knew his heart.” (38:29-38:46)

Brain Houston: “I know you’ve tried to apologize a lot of times, I’ve heard some of that myself. Um, it seems there’s a lot of people who just aren’t prepared to accept for his apologies. Do you feel like maybe it was too little too late when it came to apologizing?” (38:47-39:03)

Mark Driscoll: “That’s a good question I don’t know. Um, you know I had someone in the middle of this say. I wrote it in my journal so I wouldn’t forget it it says, it’s never the wrong time to do the right thing. And uh, yeah I don’t know if I’m going to place it I have a great answer for it, I think I’m in the process of processing and praying with wise council. Kind of revisiting the 18 years of my life and trying to learn from it all, yeah.” (39:06-39:31)

Brian Houston: “So in your resignation letter, you you detailed, I feel that about, mistakes you had made and offenses that you had caused. And did you feel like that was received by people?” (39:32-39:44)

Mark Driscoll: “I never got to say goodbye to the church and to the people, um, and so what went public was uh, actually the resignation letter that went to the legal governing board that was in authority over me. Um, and so, um, I uh, I know under the circumstances that there wasn’t a way to do that would’ve been clean or easy. I don’t have any criticism of the board. I think for the people it, it meant there wasn’t closure and I didn’t, we didn’t get to say anything. And so, we didn’t expect to resign I met with the board there was a whole list of things that were charged by current former leaders and there was an internal governance struggle, and threats of legal action, and it got very complicated. And a lot of it was anonymous and through the internet so you don’t know who’s saying or doing what. And so I invited the board to do a full examination interview anybody anything, and we would submit to whatever verdict that they determined. Um, and when I think about 8 weeks we met Friday and Saturday, October 10th and 11th, I remember because the 11th was my birthday. And so Grace and I were present with the Lord. And they said, uh, we see in your history of leadership less in more recent years, more particularly in the past, pride, anger, and domineering leadership style. That would be the three exact words they used. We don’t see anything disqualifying, these are areas we want you to grow, we want you to return to leadership of the church soon. They wanted to do some clean up internally. We want you back on January 4th in the pulpit give you time to heal things to cool down and for some changes to be made. We agreed to that. I sent in a go forward plan and then we went home to have birthday cake with the kids. Um, I think it was on Monday night I was in the bedroom Grace was in the living room and so we had told the board and told the kids you know, come back and was done preaching and love and serve and fix what was a struggling church. And uh, and God had provided a way for us to do that as volunteers and so I was to come back as volunteers. And then on that Monday night I was in the bedroom and Grace was in the living room. And um, he spoke to me and he spoke to her in a supernatural way that neither of us anticipated or expected. And so Grace walked in and she said, “I feel like the Lord just spoke to me and said what we were supposed to do.” And I was like, “I thought the Lord just spoke to me and said what we were supposed to do.” It’s not what we wanted, it’s not what we agreed to, it’s not what we planned for, and so I asked her well what did the Lord say to you because I didn’t want to influence her and so she said, uh, she said we’re” (39:45-42:42)

Grace Driscoll: “We’re released.” (42:43)

Brian Houston: “We can take a moment.” (42:52)

Mark Driscoll: “So, she said well what have you heard so I can hear it. “Well the Lord revealed to me that, you know, a trap has been set there’s no way in which to return to leadership.” And I didn’t know what that meant or what was going on at the time. And um, I said, he said well release too we need to resign. And so, um, you know, this is not what we anticipated, and uh a lot of people thought you know, maybe he’s got another plan, or, we didn’t. We didn’t know what we were doing. And Grace fell to the floor and she was just sobbing uncontrollably and I’ve never seen my wife like that she was devastated. Um, so we prayed and slept on it decided that we would make sure we got this right, and uh.”

Grace Driscoll: “Speak with wise council.”

Mark Driscoll: “Sought the pastors of those we trust and sent in our resignation in on that, it would’ve been that Tuesday, yeah, and resigned.” (42:53-43:57)

Brian Houston: “So there is a lot of grief, uh, delusion of the church [Inaudible]” (43:58-44:00)

Mark Driscoll: “Well, and, for the people, you know, who. I mean it was a great honor to be their pastor for 18 years. And uh, amazing to see 10,000 people baptized, and people married and kids born, and people helped and healed out to see churches get planted. And mean that was, it’s, it’s, there was a lot of joy and a lot of gratitude. But, um, but also just uh, for the people in the church who have been hurt, and uh, some have scattered, and not attending church, and, that’s the part as a pastor that’s devastating.” (44:01-44:43)

Brian Houston: “Yes, yeah, it’s always the fallout.” (44:44-44:45)

Mark Driscoll: “Yup… Yeah…” (44:46-44:48)

Brian Houston: “Well I guess we can all believe that God’s our restorer and he’ll work in each of those people and bring them back to a place of wholeness.” (44:49-44:57)

Grace Driscoll: “They’re still his people, the way he’s got to minister to them.” (44:58-45:01)

Brian Houston: “So understanding, um, that you’re not trying to defend you know I totally understand you’re not trying to defend your actions or anything that relates to your leadership. But are there any particular things that were said that were just so untrue and just so hurtful that you would like to mention them?” (45:02-45:22)

Mark Driscoll: “I would like to, but, yeah, [Whispering] I don’t want to. In this, my, my, and I appreciate you hearing me Pastor Brian, in all honesty my goal in all of this is not to win, and so,” (45:25-45:44) [Applause]

Brian Houston: “Well that’s a good answer. [Inaudible] hold your piece.” (45:47-45:52)

Mark Driscoll: “And and I am not good at holding my peace, but I believe that that would be, um, I believe that would be best for the Gospel.” (45:52-46:00)

Brian Houston: “We believe you’re getting better at it, at holding your piece. [Laughter] So from the whole thing experience that would last 1-4 years, what if you had to bring in 3 to 5 key lessons that you’ve learned what would they be?” (46:01-46:22)

Mark Driscoll: “Oh boy. I mean that’s a, yeah, I’m not very good with short. [Laughter] Um, it was a tremendous honor to be a pastor and to teach the Bible. And um, to have the things that God did are remarkable and God works through his people. And so, I have come to more than ever be grateful for the 18 years that I got to serve, for the opportunities I got to teach and the things I got to see God do through his good people. Um, and so just a deeper appreciation for the people of God and for the grace that we enjoy. I mean very genuinely. Number 2 I’m exceedingly grateful for my wife. I know I have a wonderful woman but the fact that she’s still with me and my dearest friend and loving and gracious and confronts me and is a truth teller in a loving way. Um, so, I just publicly want to thank you. I mean, she’s the best and I’m really blessed to have her so thank you, [Applause] and um, and faith that we don’t know what’s next. We, people have, you know, speculated, I don’t know. I would like to teach the Bible and love people what that looks like we don’t know. And I’m a planner and a driver. And and right now, um, you know, the plan is to seek wise council, to not get ahead of the Lord, to not rush like I did the first time.”

Grace Driscoll: “To wait in line.”

Mark Driscoll: “To wait in line and not try to prove myself or have my comeback, I, I really, I really am not motivated that way at present. And so it’s just sticking close to Jesus, and to Grace, and the kids. And as we have opportunity thanking the people that were really wonderful for us and then waiting to see what the Lord has next.” (46:23-48:15)

Brian Houston: “My last question really was along those lines it’s, what now?” (48:16-48:19)

Mark Driscoll: “I don’t know, I mean this would be the time I would tell you my next thing and it’s the public launch, and I don’t know. We’re going to go home, and kiss the kids and pray and see what’s next. Yeah, um, I hope to teach the Bible, yeah.” (48:22-48:35)

Brian Houston: “Well I personally think that you’re anointed to do so.” (48:36-40)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you.” (48:40-48:41)

Brian Houston: “Yeah you’re an outstanding teacher. I’ve already told you we’re probably a little different on some things. But, you know, I personally find your teaching very stimulating and very, very powerful. And I know a lot of people even in my team do as well. So personally I think you should do some teaching again, and my personal feeling for you is to see you flourish in ministry and have your best days ahead of you. [Applause]

And I guess it’s [Inaudible] restitution with individuals as well as collectively and corporately. And- you know endings always- good endings help good beginnings. Bad endings don’t have good beginnings. So I guess if I could- uh- be- uh- officious enough to offer counsel. I would say, just be sure that- you know- you really have done all that you can to heal people, the past, heal up yourselves, stay with good counsel like you are, moving to all that God’s got ahead for you. I’m a great believer that the best is yet to come. And I’d love to speak that over both your lives. I pray in Jesus name that the best is yet to come- and that’s in every way. [Applause] I have found [Inaudible] so let’s believe in God for that together. In Jesus name.” (48:40-50:10)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you pastor Brian. Thank you for giving us an opportunity.” (50:11-50:15)

Brian Houston: “Thanks for giving me the honor in asking you the questions. I- uh- really, I think I asked you some of the tough questions. I am sure there would be some people who would think that the questions should have been tougher. But- uh- I know, I know, Pastor Mark and Grace, there are a lot of people out there who want good for you in the future. And [Inaudible], just like all of us, that you learn from your past.” (50:16-50:38)

Mark Driscoll: “Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.” (50:40-50:44)

Brian Houston: “Great.” (50:45-50:55)

[INTERVIEW ENDS] [Applause]

Brian Houston: “Thank you! We had great conversation. We actually talked for um, an hour and fifty three minutes. So that is cut down to just over forty five minutes. I think fifty. Fifty minutes. But the entire interview is an hour and fifty three minutes. So once we get past Hillsong Europe, Hillsong London Conference, we may put excerpts of all the interview, the rest of the interview, uh, so up on to the web as well.

And uh- when we had that conversation it was a really powerful conversation. I could feel the power of God in the room. And so, it was an honor [inaudible] to uh, have the opportunity to talk so frankly and so boldly to- to Mark. And ah- you know, as grace-filled Christians, let’s just believe in the best of them both.

Everyone’s made mistakes as leaders. I’ve made plenty of mistakes. If I’d been held in to all of my mistakes, I’d probably be out of my church too. But thank God I had kinder more to gentle people in our church who uh, turned one blind eye and kept loving me.

So fantastic.” (51:11-52:20)

Source: Hillsong Conference 2015, Interview aired 30/06/2015.

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The fake church of JB

06 Monday Jul 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Associations

≈ 9 Comments

Tags

backstage, Beiber, Carl Lentz, Hillsong, hillsong conference, Hillsong Conference 2015, interview, Justin Beiber, Lentz

The Bible is not about you, it’s about Jesus. The Church is not about you, it’s about Jesus. So why is Hillsong making the Church about Justin Beiber?

Even if Justin Beiber is a controversial celebrity, no one deserves Hillsong. If anyone sees this young man, please give him the opportunity to hear the gospel and lead him to a Christian church, not a dangerous new age cult. If you don’t know what the Gospel, it’s this:

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received:

that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.  Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.” 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

As you can see in the above video, Justin Beiber deserves to be in a normal church where he can be treated like a normal human being for his well being and for his salvation.

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Has Hillsong asked Sunday World to retract their story?

BREAKING NEWS: Brian Houston & Mark Driscoll interview at Hillsong Conference 2015

30 Tuesday Jun 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Hillsong Conference

≈ 24 Comments

Tags

Brian Houston, Driscoll, Hillsong, hillsong conference, Hillsong Conference 2015, houston, interview, liar, lie, lied, lies, Mark Driscoll, rick warren, warren

BRIAN HOUSTON LIED

When Brian Houston released his media statement over dropping Driscoll for Hillsong Conference 2015, media outlets around the world, petitioners and people in general, understood that Driscoll wasn’t speaking at Hillsong Conference 2015.

Christians and protestors expressed that they did not want the disgraced and unrepentant Mark Driscoll to be given a platform at this global event. Brian Houston, to remove the distraction to his conference and quieten the objections of Driscoll getting the platform, released this statement:

Houston bends knee to critics and media (Part 3): Driscollified to speak at Hillsong

Brian Houston’s statement gave the impression that Mark Driscoll was not going to be given the platform or speak at Hillsong Conference 2015. The fact is this: Brian Houston lied.

Brian and Driscoll interview

The interview between Mark Driscoll and Brian Houston did happen.

Brian Houston lied by omission. He covered up and mislead Christians and the international media through tricky words and technicalities. He did not livestream this event through the internet like he has done with his other sessions.

Furthermore, we have also noticed that there were no twitter, instagram or facebook commotion over Driscoll speaking at Hillsong Conference. So the question is, did Hillsong somehow communicate to attendees not to promote the Driscoll interview on social media?

One of our valued critics who is pro-Hillsong reported to us:

“Brian Houston has just talked to Mark and Grace Driscoll in a prerecorded interview at Hillsong Conference. Driscoll was very contrite, and Brian did ask some tough questions.”

Source: NewTaste, Reviewing Houston’s second statement on Driscoll: Is Mark Driscoll speaking at Hillsong Church?, Hillsong Church Watch, https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2015/06/15/reviewing-houstons-second-statement-on-driscoll-is-mark-driscoll-speaking-at-hillsong-church/#comment-20228, 30/06/2015. (Accessed 30/06/2015.)

However, Brian Houston did give Mark Driscoll the platform TODAY (30th of June) in spite of this information being absent for the Hillsong Conference 2015 Diary.

Lying by Omission

(Edit 08/07/2015: Click to download and examine Hillsong Conference 2015 Diary.)

Here is also Rick Warren acknowledging the Brian Houston with Mark Driscoll interview at Hillsong Conference 2015:

16CWCPortrait_Rick Warren

“But I just want to say this right up front. First, I trust this man [points to Brian Houston] and I trust his wife Bobbie. I trust them. And I trust them for the very reason of what you just saw so brilliantly portrayed in the Mark Driscoll interview. Truth and grace together. Truth and grace together.

He [Brian Houston] is authentic. He’s real. He’s honest.” [1:10]

[Download of footage coming soon]

When you look at Brian Houston’s misleading media statement, we pointed out this sentence:

“It is my hope that Mark and I will be able to speak in person in the coming weeks to discuss some of the issues that have been raised, what – if anything – he has learned, and for me to understand better how he is progressing in both his personal and professional life.” [Source]

We said back on the 8th of June (2015),

“It’s interesting to note that Brian Houston deliberately wrote that he STILL wants to speak with Mark Driscoll “IN PERSON in the coming weeks to discuss some of the issues that have been raised.” How long is “in the coming weeks?” Does this mean Mark Driscoll is STILL going to fly over to Australia? Is this meeting with Brian going to be private or public, and will Mark STILL be speaking, but just not at the Hillsong Conference?

Seeing how some churches are responding to Mark Driscoll, and knowing how Houston operates, it would not surprise us at all if Brian Houston does invite Driscoll to speak at Hillsong Church prior to the Hillsong Conference. After all, Driscoll is still meeting with Houston and “will be able to speak in person in the coming weeks to discuss some of the issues that have been raised”.” [Source]

We realised Brian Houston was up to something. However, we personally believed Brian Houston would not allow Driscoll to speak at the Hillsong Conference because he said this in his statement,

“However, I do not want unnecessary distractions during our conference, particularly as this 30 minute interview was only a small part of this five day event. It was clear to me that Mark’s attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose of Hillsong Conference, which is to see people leave encouraged in their own spiritual journey.”

Little did we know just how deceitful Brian Houston would be over his wording. Like others, we feel duped for believing his media statement at all. We should have been smarter than this and learnt earlier when Brian Houston publicly lied about the ACA media story in his media statement not long ago.

~~~

As ChurchWatcher, we apologise for suggesting that Mark Driscoll would not be given the platform at Hillsong Conference 2015.

Houston bends knee to critics and media (Part 2): Sunrise Interview

08 Monday Jun 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Hillsong Associations, Hillsong Conference

≈ 10 Comments

Tags

Brian Houston, hillsong conference, Hillsong Conference 2015, interview, Mark Driscoll, Sunrise

If there is anything Brian Houston of Hillsong hates, it is anyone who criticises him. If they are Christians, they are “Pharisees” and “evil people”. If it’s the media, it’s demonic, anti-Christian and not of God. Again, Brian Houston espouses to his followers that people should not listen or engage with “critics”. According to Houston, these “haters” are out to stunt your potential and growth.

This series of articles will observe how Brian Houston went against his own teachings and decided to act according to the public criticism over Mark Driscoll the last week.

Houston bends knee to critics and media (Part 1): Lateline

Brian Houston yesterday morning had an interview with Sunrise (07/06/2015). It appears that it was this particular interview that drove Brian Houston to deal with Mark Driscoll speaking at his Hillsong Conference 2015.


[Click to download link]

We will be reviewing this script over the next few months to examine his behaviour and claims. His responses deserve it.

SUNRISE INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Sunrise: Hillsong church has come under fire for inviting disgraced American preacher, Mark Driscoll, to speak at their annual conference. Among other remarks, he infamously claimed that women were created to house a mans’ penis. Snr Pastor of Hillsong, s Brian Houston, joins us now from Waterloo. Good morning  to you Brian, it is always good for you to talk to us, thank you and I know how busy you are on a Sunday morning.

Ah, pretty offensive comments, Brian. Ah, did you know all these things when you booked him to come out here for the conference?

Houston: Hi Monique. I didn’t know. Mark is very well know in evangelic circles all around the world so we invited him before this major controversy started. He was going to speak, preach and teach at the conference. And when so all these things began to break we changed it to an interview. I wanted to ask him, I wanted to hear if these things were true. That particular statement, the first time I ever heard that to be honest with you in in these last 2 or 3 days. And so if he did say that it is disgraceful and degrading.

Sunrise: Pastor, is part of a general doctrine of Driscoll’s over the years is that women were really created for men’s use and should be subservient and submissive to women. Just to be clear, that is not Hillsong church’s belief?

Houston: Entirely different. I would see things as absolutely the opposite, when it comes to women’s place in society and their role in the church. And of course at Hillsong we’ve got many, many women who are pastors who do speak on the platform, who are heavily involved in leadership positions off the platform, so it couldn’t be further from where we stand.

Sunrise: I understand that one of the platforms you serve under is all about forgiveness. These controversies are quite recent though, particularly him leaving his church in the States, really quite recently. Why not just cancel him Brian?

Houston: Well I am going to talk to him late on today and we’ll talk about the different possibilities. I need to hear from him directly about some of these things. I think the worse things he is quoted as saying are literally the year 2000 or 15 years ago. And it’s true he resigned from his church just last year. As I said we’d already invited him by then. But, I’m gonna talk to him this afternoon and we’ll kinda work out where we’re goon work out where to go from here.

Sunrise: So at that meeting you will seek to determine whether he truly has changed? And therefore has something to offer about a story of change and redemption, I guess?

Houston: I know Mark said “sorry” many times over. Sadly it looks like the damage was already done by then because a lot of people are not  forgiving toward him at all. There’s a lot of feeling around the whole situation with Mark’s claims and some of the ways he led. And so because he is such a well-known figure in Christianity, this interview which by the way is going to be like 30 mins in the middle of a 5 day and 5 night conference.  So it is a small part of the conference. But that is why I think it is of interest to people to find out exactly what is true, what’s not true, and of course, hopefully, to learn from it. Because, for a pastor to make some of those claims, even though he is using the bible to try and substantiate those claims, I just think it doesn’t help the cause of the church at all.

Houston: Or humanity generally, not only are they degrading it within themselves, but  allow an attitude that feeds into all sorts of other problems like violence.

Brian, can I just ask before you go, is Hillsong paying for Mark t come out here?

Houston: Well at this point we are paying his fares, yes. But we are not paying a fee or anything like that. So, we’ll talk this afternoon and work out where to go from here.

Sunrise: Alright, Brian Houston, good to talk to you. Thank you so much for giving us your time this morning, we really appreciate it.

Houston: Thank you, goodbye.

Brian Houston: “I am excited about interviewing Mark and his wife”….

09 Saturday May 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Uncategorized

≈ 1 Comment

Tags

Brian Houston, disqualified, disqualified from ministry, hillsong conference, immorallity, interview, Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill

Before reading the article below – we would argue that Hillsong doesn’t invite doctrinally sound “pastors and Christian leaders” to speak at their annual conferences.

The invitations Hillsong extends to those they want as keynote speakers, are usually based on “popularity”,  not on a biblical desire to mature the body of Christ. We should be asking the question – why do the majority of their keynote speakers fall into the category of false teachers?  These are not false accusations as some may think. We recommend our readers do their own due diligence,  please don’t just take our word for it. Much of the evidence for our claims are readily available out there on the web, that same evidence well-researched by mature theologians from both the Reformed and Charismatic camps. For instance:

1. TD Jakes: a Prosperity and Word of Faith heretic who denies the trinity.
2. Rick Warren: a Seeker Sensitive pastor and notorious bible twister who teaches anything to please anyone.
3. Joseph Prince: a Prosperity and Word of Faith heretic, and antinomian.
4. Joyce Meyer: a Prosperity and extreme Word of Faith heretic and pastrix.
5. Beth Moore: a notorious bible twister and pastrix.
6. Joel Osteen: is a New Age, Prosperity and Word of Faith heretic.
7. Jentezin Franklin is a notorious bible twister, Prosperity and Word of Faith heretic.
8. Craig Groeschel whose syncretism sees him aligning with the Word of Faith heretics already listed above.

Hillsong Conference is an event that boosts the popularity of frauds while at the same time tearing at the essentials of the orthodox Christian faith.

Warren Throckmorton writes,

Hillsong Founder Brian Houston Issues Statement On Mark Driscoll at the Hillsong 2015 Conference

I just received this information from Mark DeMoss via email:

Statement by Brian Houston on Mark Driscoll at Hillsong 2015 Conference

March 2015

For years, Hillsong has invited pastors and Christian leaders from around the world to speak at our annual conferences in Sydney, Australia and London, England. Well in advance of his resignation as senior pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Washington, we invited Mark Driscoll to be one of our speakers this summer. Rather than having Mark preach or teach, I am excited about interviewing Mark and his wife, Grace from our main platform during our Hillsong Conference 2015.

I am looking forward to having this opportunity to speak openly with the Driscolls about life and ministry, as well as recent events and lessons they’ve learned through personal and ministry trials during the past year. My aim is to have an in-depth conversation that gives insight into their hearts.

Mark has been candid about mistakes he has made, and if we can, through our conference, help others through his life experiences, we think that will prove valuable.

This exclusive statement comes from Brian Houston in response to my post last week noting that Mark Driscoll was slated to speak at the conferences. Instead of having a speaking position, he will be interviewed by Houston.

The description of Driscoll on the conference websites (Sydney, Europe) has not changed to reflect this news or the dissolution of Mars Hill Church.  The description lists him as “founding pastor” rather than co-founder of the former Mars Hill Church.

Discuss.

Source: Warren Throckmorton, Hillsong Founder Brian Houston Issues Statement On Mark Driscoll at the Hillsong 2015 Conference, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/03/12/hillsong-founder-brian-houston-issues-statement-about-mark-driscoll-at-the-hillsong-2015-conference/, Published 12/03/2015. (Accessed 04/05/2015.)

Christian’s petitioning for Hillsong to remove the disgraced Mark Driscoll from their Conferences

16 Thursday Apr 2015

Posted by Nailed Truth in Uncategorized

≈ 15 Comments

Tags

Brian Houston, Driscoll, Hillsong, houston, interview, Mark Driscoll, petition

If you want to sign the below petition – click here.

Brian and Driscoll interview

Natalia Collins from the UK writes,

Remove Mark Driscoll from the Hillsong Europe Conference

After approaching Hillsong privately (in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17) to ask them to reconsider and change their their decision to have Mark Driscoll as a key note speaker at their Europe conference 22-24 July 2015), “Speak, We’re Listening” they have chosen to still have Mark Driscoll appear at the conference, in an interview format with his wife Grace.

This is both disappointing and of great concern to many across the UK and internationally.  Mark Driscoll resigned from leadership after many leaders and other within his church raised issues about unethical and abusive behaviour including:

  • Ex-leaders of Mars Hill Church repenting of their collusion with Mark Driscoll
  • Ex-members of Mars Hill reporting they have experienced spiritual abuse from Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll, including controlling and manipulative behaviour
  • Evidence of plagiarism in at least one book he has written
  • Misuse of tithes by Mars Hill Church
  • Unethical actions taken to ensure Grace and Mark Driscoll’s book was featured on a bestselling book list
  • Mark Driscoll’s public statements against women in leadership over the last two decades which have greatly undermined the Gospel message of women as leaders, evangelists and full members of the Body of Christ

Alongside these are revelations of Mark Driscoll’s communications from 2000 written under a pseudonym, which state that we are living in a “pussified nation” with “men being raised by bitter penis envying burned feministed single mothers”.  The language used within these communications can be accurately described as hate speech and needs to be treated as such.  Although the statements are 14 years old, his more recent messages about “feminised men” and women’s roles being solely within the home suggest his views have not changed, although his language may have.  Mark Driscoll has apologised for his communications in 2000, but his apology does not extend to the views he expressed or his ongoing negative attitudes towards women, gender non-conforming men and gay people.

We fully believe that people can be restored and redeemed and that forgiveness is a fundamental part of Jesus’ teaching.  Mark Driscoll has never fully acknowledged or repented of the pain he has caused many ex-leaders and members of Mars Hill alongside the women and men he has hurt with his comments about leadership, gender and sexuality.  It has been only six months since Mark Driscoll resigned and to give him such a platform as the O2 arena does not represent the Gospel of repentance and forgiveness, but that of cheap grace.

By inviting Mark Driscoll to speak on the Hillsong platform, Hillsong are both endorsing and legitimising Mark’s messages about women and ignoring the concerns being repeated by many across the US and UK about his abusive behaviour, which has been corroborated by ex-members and ex-leaders of Mars Hill Church.

We ask that Hillsong remove Mark Driscoll from their line up of speakers at the Hillsong Conference 2015.

Further details of the issues can be found here:

Overview of the issues: http://crosscut.com/2014/07/16/religion/121033/inside-mars-hills-big-meltdown/?page=single

Summary: http://dangeroushope.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/its-all-about-mark-driscoll-the-tragedy-of-mars-hill-church/

Official charges: http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/08/FormalCharges-Driscoll-814.pdf

Mars Hill Refuge: http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.co.uk

We Love Mars Hill: http://welovemarshill.com

Source: By Natalie Collins, Remove Mark Driscoll from the Hillsong Europe Conference, change.org, https://www.change.org/p/hillsong-remove-mark-driscoll-from-hillsong-europe-conference. (Accessed 16/04/2014.)

Denton Interviews Levins On Hillsong: “I was detoxed from toxic Christianity”

03 Saturday Nov 2012

Posted by Nailed Truth in Books, News Headlines

≈ 19 Comments

Tags

abc, andrew denton, Brian, Brian Houston, denton, enough rope, hill$ong, Hillsong, Hillsong Church, houston, interview, levins, tanya levins

On ABC’s ‘Enough Rope’, Andrew Denton interviewed a woman by the name of Tanya Levin. Tanya Levin shared her insights as a Hillsong member.

“Tanya Levin grew up in Hillsong and has written a book about her experiences.
After pressure by hillsong the original publisher dropped her book for fear of backlash from Hillsong.
Finally a publisher has had the courage to print her story
this is her first interview.

The book is released August 7 2007″ – Tanya Levin’s – People in glass houses part 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Y4cvSyBjo, Uploaded by HillsongTV on Aug 1, 2007. (Accessed 02/11/2012.)

The book is titled ‘People In Glass Houses’. We will be examining her material on Hillsong Church Watch. Watch her interview here:

Source: Tanya Levin’s – People in glass houses part 2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLzmTJ770K0, Uploaded by HillsongTV on Aug 1, 2007. (Accessed 02/11/2012.)

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Tanya Levin

Tanya Levin
Its growth in this country has been phenomenal. Politicians from all parties have cosied up to its congregation and it preaches that God wants you to be rich. It is the Hillsong Church. Now for the first time one of its flock, Tanya Levin, offers an insider account.

ANDREW DENTON: Please welcome Tanya Levin. Tanya welcome.

APPLAUSE

TANYA LEVIN: Thank you Andrew.

ANDREW DENTON: Tanya your book’s been controversial even before it’s been published and we’ll get to the controversy in a while, but I want to go back to January the 4th, 1987…

TANYA LEVIN: Ah…

ANDREW DENTON: Your diary entry the day you were freed from the spirit of rock n’ roll. What happened that day?

TANYA LEVIN: I was at church on a Sunday morning, and Hills Christian Life Centre as it was known then, had been advertising for a long time that rock n’ roll music was evil, that it was the work of Satan. And I recognised one of the leaders who actually was working in radio at the time, and I thought I’ll go up to him and I’ll say “This music’s okay, isn’t it?” And he actually turned to me and he said “I, I need you to be free from the spirit of rock n’ roll.” He said “I know that you are following one of the high priests of Satan, which is Bruce Springsteen, and you need to go home now and you need to destroy all of that material.”
ANDREW DENTON: So did you go…

TANYA LEVIN: But Bruce.

ANDREW DENTON: You went home and…

TANYA LEVIN: I went home and for about an hour and a half I cried and I cried and I cried and I ripped all the posters off the wall and I broke the records, they were actually old records and I, I broke them and I ripped out the cassettes and I cried and I prayed and I cried and that was 1987.

ANDREW DENTON: Your parents introduced you to the Hills Christian Church when you were young, about 13…

TANYA LEVIN: Hm mm.

ANDREW DENTON: And they both were…involved in the Pentecostal religion. Now I want to talk a bit about Pentecostal religion, that is where there is a belief of, it’s common to find the supernatural in every day life. And I guess an example of that would be talking in tongues. Is that right?

TANYA LEVIN: Glossolalia, it’s known as.

ANDREW DENTON: Glossolalia.

TANYA LEVIN: That’s its formal name…

ANDREW DENTON: There you go.

TANYA LEVIN: Pentecostalism is very much about a physical experience with the supernatural, be it waving your hands or praying over the people, or it’s a real embodiment thing and it’s, and it is also punctuated by speaking in tongues.

ANDREW DENTON: What’s it like to experience?

TANYA LEVIN: Well it’s…interesting in a church environment where lots of different people are doing it at once, then it can…really be a free-for-all that it can be really scary. Once you’re in tune with the culture though, it seems completely normal. I thought everybody did it as a part of their childhood.

ANDREW DENTON: Did you speak in tongues?

TANYA LEVIN: Yes, since I was eight years old. I had always been raised in a Christian household and I didn’t know any different when I was eight, that we were going to a Pentecostal church it’s…a lot of fun. I mean there’s a lot of happiness and fun and the joy of, of the Lord is, is revealed.

ANDREW DENTON: You write about it quite movingly actually, you talk about being on fire for God and how beautiful believing is. Can you explain some of what that beauty is?

TANYA LEVIN: It is. It’s a very…beautiful thing. It’s a very simplistic story to believe, but it’s all about a very personal intimate relationship with God. You know, you’re part of a big group that is there to save the world and is there to, you know. The Hillsong, for example has always portrayed themselves as a really fun church, very contemporary. And the music’s great. And, you know, who wouldn’t want to be there?

ANDREW DENTON: You actually say that you don’t think you could have written this book without Hillsong Church. In many ways they made you what you are today. How is that?

TANYA LEVIN: It’s incredible. You get taught to be absolutely invincible. You get taught that you can overcome anything, that you can achieve anything, through God. Ah and…it makes you feel incredibly courageous, and incredibly able to face the world, with the power, and the spiritual reinforcement, that you believe you’ve been given.

ANDREW DENTON: The flip-side to the beauty of believing that sense of invincibility was, was a fear you, you describe being terrified ah and that demons could come in many forms. Where would demons come from?

TANYA LEVIN: In the 80’s we were taught pretty much that demons were everywhere, they were hiding behind every tree and every bush and if you let your guard down for a minute, those demons will come in and possess you and make you do things that you don’t want to do.

ANDREW DENTON: Okay so when did the enemy, which is what you refer to Satan as, when did the enemy start whispering doubt into your ear?

TANYA LEVIN: I would have been about 16 and I was still at the Hills Christian Life Centre. It was still a fairly small congregation so there was still maybe 500 people there. And it was all I’d known for, for these years and then, I just started getting thoughts in my head, these people are crazy.

ANDREW DENTON: What was it that you suddenly saw that you thought was crazy?

TANYA LEVIN: I’d watched, I would watch people and it looked like they were participating in some kind of charade and I didn’t know how that was possible. Also the tongues didn’t make sense. Like I thought that’s really gibberish, that can’t be real. “Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba” is what you hear.

ANDREW DENTON: Yeah.

TANYA LEVIN: And I thought no, something’s, something’s not right here.

ANDREW DENTON: When you were 24 by, you got a social work degree and you ended up doing some work with the Salvos and very interesting phrase, you said “I was ah detoxed from toxic Christianity.”

TANYA LEVIN: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: That’s a very strong phrase, “toxic Christianity.” Is that how you view Pentecostalism at that point?

TANYA LEVIN: I…have to say I do now. I spent five years working alongside Salvation Army officers who have a completely different outlook on what Christianity is. And they’re very, very humble people, and they’re very, very committed to serving the community.

ANDREW DENTON: And how did you see that as different to what you saw at Hillsong?

TANYA LEVIN: The Salvation Army are very much geared towards charity and gospel and Hillsong was very much geared towards money, recruitment and fund raising.

ANDREW DENTON: I want to show you a bit of Brian Houston, this is from ah Australian Story in 2005.

FOOTAGE PLAYS

ANDREW DENTON: You write in the book that even today when you hear Brian’s voice it makes you feel better. How does Brian work for you?

TANYA LEVIN: That’s funny. When you go to bible college apparently you…learn that when you say, tell the person next to you, it’s just a way, where for when the pastor’s lost his thought train. So “Turn to the person next to you and say you look great”. He’s…a very powerful speaker. His content is not very heavy but he’s very charismatic. And, you know, he’s a voice of my childhood. He’s a voice of, you know, leadership in my upbringing, so you know, and he always sounds so happy, and so pleased to be where he is and so proud of you, that you’re doing this thing with him, that you almost want to be a part of it all over again.

ANDREW DENTON: It was 2002, and in fact, it was the speech Brian made to the congregation. An important speech which really started your, I think it’s fair to say, your path to disillusionment.

TANYA LEVIN: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: Can you talk us through that?

TANYA LEVIN: He proceeded to talk about his father having, you know, having to have confronted his father over a serious, what he called a “serious moral failure”. These were allegations of sexual offences against teenage boys, which was never actually named on the day. So this was a “serious moral failure”. He’d had to confront his father about it, his father had confessed, the National Executive had then taken away his credentials, investigated, and taken away Houston Senior’s credentials. And that Brian Houston himself was crushed. And he asked for the congregation to pray for his family, for his wife and his children, and the congregation did. They stood up and they applauded him, and that was the end of that speech.

ANDREW DENTON: There was no reference to the people that had been abused or whose lives may have been damaged.

TANYA LEVIN: Absolutely no reference to the victims. There was no stance taken on child sexual assault, or child abuse of any form or care for children, ah there was no standing up and saying “Look, we will not tolerate this in our congregation”. And in fact what it made me wonder was, if this is how they treat these kinds of issues on the most public level that they’ve got, how are they treating them on smaller more, you know, in more private arenas?

ANDREW DENTON: You raise a number of questions about Hillsong Church in it and one of those is about prosperity theology, which is probably best summed up and the title of this book by Brian Houston ‘You Need More Money.’ Can you explain to us what ‘prosperity theology’ is?

TANYA LEVIN: Prosperity theology is the belief, the absolute belief, that according to the bible, according to the verses in the bible, God wants you to be rich. He wants you to have prosperity in every area of your life, particularly your finances. And that to not be that way is actually to be disobedient to the word of God.

ANDREW DENTON: Why would God want you to be rich, what does that achieve?

TANYA LEVIN: You know, if the Christians can have all the wealth then they can redistribute it as they wish to. You know, to the areas of poverty that they want to distribute it to, the areas of need that they see fit.

ANDREW DENTON: Well Hillsong has…a strong record of distributing to charity, this is what Brian Houston said on Australian Story about where some of their money goes.

FOOTAGE PLAYS

ANDREW DENTON: From your viewpoint, is that the whole picture?

TANYA LEVIN: It’s very abstract. 60 per cent of their money goes towards helping people directly, that could mean any number of things.

ANDREW DENTON: Do you do you suspect ah that under closer scrutiny, that there is something questionable, ah the way Hillsong operates?

TANYA LEVIN: I can’t argue that there’s anything questionable. What I can argue that is questionable, is the lack of transparency. So, you know, as much as they might say their books are open, everybody that I’ve interviewed who has asked to have a look at the books is told that they’ve got a bad attitude or they’ve got doubts and therefore we get back to the story of sin and doubt so.

ANDREW DENTON: You also talk about Bobbie Houston and how you came to question some of her values. What is it according to Bobbie, and the teachings of Hillsong, that kingdom women should aspire to be?

TANYA LEVIN: Bobbie Houston, who’s Brian’s wife, is the women’s leader for Hillsong. And, she teaches from a proverb, ah from the Book of Proverbs, number 31, which is about a devoted wife. So kingdom woman should be a devoted wife, she should be a helper and a companion, which is what Eve was created for, for Adam. She should at all times be supportive of her husband’s goals, that is what a kingdom woman is there for, and if she doesn’t have a husband, she should be in training to get a good husband, so that she can fulfil his goals.

ANDREW DENTON: In 2005 you went to the Colour Your World Hillsong Women’s Conference…

TANYA LEVIN: Mm

ANDREW DENTON: And this is really the moment where you decided you want to write a book. What happened there?

TANYA LEVIN: Ah haaa. Hillsong…are running the charity, ‘Compassion’, which is on a child sponsorship model of and…they’re promoting very heavily child sponsorship, in Uganda. And they had a big photo of an African child with his hands… And the caption was, “Will you be my sponsor” and I thought next they’re going to put them in like bikinis and lipstick and then what we, like at what point is this exploitation.

ANDREW DENTON: Nonetheless it does seem to me to be perhaps…an overly strong way, but it seems to me to be people trying to do something that’s worthwhile.

TANYA LEVIN: It’s very clearly people trying to do something that will further the advancement of fundamentalist Christianity. This orphanage in Uganda is explicitly set up for the children to learn how to be Pentecostals, with hopes that one day there’ll be a Pentecostal leader in Uganda.

ANDREW DENTON: So you’re suggesting that Hillsong’s primarily set up for recruitment?

TANYA LEVIN: And fundraising.

ANDREW DENTON: And fundraising for itself, which would imply that the faith, that is apparently its core, is not necessarily a genuine faith. Is this more a question of you having lost your faith, rather than the church having lost its?

TANYA LEVIN: It took a very long time to take my faith away from me, it was really the last thing I wanted to do was to admit that all of this stuff was true. My opinions have changed again since I’ve been researching and I’ve met so many people, negatively effected by churches like this, that it just added up to be you know, too many people with the same kinds of stories.

ANDREW DENTON: You refer to them as the walking wounded, why are they wounded?

TANYA LEVIN: I found a very strong pattern in what happens when people show resistance. So everything’s happy and everything’s fine when you don’t show any kind of resistance. If you show resistance to the pastors, the leadership, the program, the teaching, you’re dealt with very severely.

ANDREW DENTON: What does severely mean?

TANYA LEVIN: Well, you know, in cases there are people who who have been told that they’re demonic, and generally what is happened is that eh once people are showing enough resistance, that is going to need to be quelled immediately. So they’re often ostracised, and other congregants are told not to have anything to do with them, because they’ve got doubts, you know, they’re, they’re not for us, they must be against us. It’s a very fundamentalist polarised point of view.

ANDREW DENTON: Okay. When you told Brian and Bobbie that you wanted to write this book, because you did, what happened, what was the response?

TANYA LEVIN: Well, I got a response from the General Manager of Hillsong, who said that I cause significant disruption, that I was never to go on Hillsong premises again and that no they won’t be helping me with the book.

ANDREW DENTON: I should point out that we have invited Brian and Bobbie Houston to respond to Tanya’s interview and they have an open forum on this show if they wish to take it. This is the first interview you’ve done, so the the wave is about to break over you.

TANYA LEVIN: Mm.

ANDREW DENTON: The consequences of your book, are you sure you’ve done the right thing?

TANYA LEVIN: I know absolutely that I’ve done the right thing. Every time I watch some Hillsong tape I’m convinced because when I started out I thought “Ooh where will I research, what will I do?” And now all I have to do is is watch Hillsong’s own promotional material, and they will say to you explicitly that they want to build more buildings but they need more money, to do it so, you know, there are no hidden meanings there, it’s very explicit. And when you have a biblical world view and you see the whole world through the, you know, the words of the bible or the the pastor that you’ve been trained by, you can’t see it as simplistically, and it’s obviously taken me years and years, to separate it all out.

ANDREW DENTON: Well Tanya, thank you for speaking so clearly tonight. Appreciate it.

TANYA LEVIN: Thank you very much Andrew.

Source: Tanya Levin, Enough Rope, ABC, http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1992756.htm,  Episodes 30/07/2007. (Accessed 03/11/2012.)

NOTE: ALL SCREEN GRABS WERE TAKEN BEFORE THE 04/11/2012.

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